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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: John the Baptist -- Mission Accomplished
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Prudentius
Shipmate
# 11181
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Posted
The readings of late from the lectionary have always got me thinking. I don't claim any special insight, but wonder what others make of some of the questions raised in my mind.
In the first chapter of John's Gospel, right after the beautiful and poetic opening, John the Baptist is introduced. Although the actual baptism of the Lord is covered elsewhere (e.g. Matthew 3:13-17), John alludes to that event and seems to be ready to send his own disciples off with the Lord and close up shop. I wonder if he had a sense of his own imminent death and if that death -- without a resurrection -- was necessary in the eyes of the evangelists, in order to make even more clear the subordinate role of the prophet to that of the Messiah. Oral tradition likes to make John and Jesus cousins, with John being explained as the son of Elizabeth and Zachary. The gospel accounts don't seem to imply any such intimacy prior to the encounter along the Jordan. John certainly doesn't cry out, "Hey, there's my cousin. We played dreidels when we were kids, and he's somebody to watch!" No he comes out with the haunting "Behold the Lamb of God!"
How do these scenes grab you?
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The truth shall set us free. In the end, there can be no healing without justice; no justice without the truth; no truth without full accountability. We’re not there yet!
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Jessie Phillips
Shipmate
# 13048
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Prudentius:
Oral tradition likes to make John and Jesus cousins, with John being explained as the son of Elizabeth and Zachary. The gospel accounts don't seem to imply any such intimacy prior to the encounter along the Jordan.
Maybe not - but I'm sceptical of the idea that the Gospels don't occasionally presuppose some level of familiarity with those other traditions, or that the omission of detail from Gospels meant that the author intended the Gospels to be interpreted in their absence.
Homer presupposes a wider understanding of Trojan War tradition than that which is readily apparent from the text of the Iliad and Odyssey - and I don't see any reason for thinking that the Gospels are any different.
I suspect that the Gospels, and the "oral tradition" you speak of, are cut from the same cloth. So we have to be careful about reading too much into the significance of omissions.
Besides, doesn't the relationship between Elizabeth and Mary - and therefore also between John and Jesus - get a mention in the Gospel of Luke?
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
The Gospel of John is so different than the other Gospels that I would tend not to use it in trying to build a narrative of Jesus' life (and by extension his family relationships). That really wasn't the author's concern. And John came later than the other Gospels, so there were other narratives of Jesus' life being circulated in the Christian community. The author of John's Gospel is interested in the WHY of Jesus more so than details of the when or how. (Even though today many of us chuckled at the insertion of "four in the afternoon" in John's story of the calling of Andrew and Simon Peter.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
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Prudentius
Shipmate
# 11181
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Posted
I am NOT trying to negate biblical scholarship, but that is not really what I am looking for in this instance. What I think I am trying to do is evoke more of what these texts and the accompanying things that have become part of your background have led you, the reader, as an individual to think, feel and image about this event and this relationship of John to Jesus. Maybe I'm too far off the traditional track to be making much sense, but I'm trying.
I find myself mystified by the question of what was going through the minds of these two very important characters in the drama. I find myself wondering if John felt that he had finished his work to the point that inciting the wrath and disapproval of Herod Antipas was a "no brainer."
Do you sense that John may have been seeking martyrdom as a means of making an heroic exit?
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The truth shall set us free. In the end, there can be no healing without justice; no justice without the truth; no truth without full accountability. We’re not there yet!
Posts: 317 | From: NY | Registered: Mar 2006
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Who knows?
And elsewhere in the Gospels John is portrayed as not being that sure at all of Jesus' Messiahship: "Are you the one who is to come, or should we look for another?"
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Who knows?
And elsewhere in the Gospels John is portrayed as not being that sure at all of Jesus' Messiahship: "Are you the one who is to come, or should we look for another?"
I think that's understandable given the circumstances he was in. "Shit, what if all this was wrong? Did I imagine this or that happening? Am I misinterpreting out of misplaced expectation?" I don't think his exclamation "Behold the lamb of God" is negated by this doubt (not saying you do; just running with the idea).
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Basiliscus of Comana and Rita of Cascia
-- Saints of the Day (22 May) on The Onion Dome
The Egg Princess: A New Fairy Tale
Posts: 53102 | From: ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
The author of John's Gospel is interested in the WHY of Jesus more so than details of the when or how. (Even though today many of us chuckled at the insertion of "four in the afternoon" in John's story of the calling of Andrew and Simon Peter.
There's a very good reason in the mention of that detail. The late afternoon would have been a very busy part of the day for the fishing industry of the time, especially guys like Andrew and Simon who were the head honchos in the business according to archaeological evidence. They would have been repairing nets, getting the boats ready to go out at nightfall, finding replacements for missing crewmen, worrying about the weather and so on. Once you look into the supposedly mundane details, that they still left their business when Jesus called them says a lot more about Jesus than the simplistic vision of two bored guys sitting on an otherwise deserted beach.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
What archaeological evidence can there possibly be about Simon and Peter's standing in the contemporary fishing industry? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
References to a business - 'Sons of Zebedee.'
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
From Mark's account it may be inferred that James and John (& Zebedee) were owner operators who hired employees
quote:
1:19 Going on a little farther, he saw James, the son of Zebedee, and John his brother in their boat mending nets. 1:20 Immediately he called them, and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired men and followed him.
Not archaeology of course.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
Bugger, wrong disciples oops, that will teach me to type without double checking first.
That doesn't detract from the fact 4pm is a busy time for fishermen.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
What archaeological evidence can there possibly be about Simon and Peter's standing in the contemporary fishing industry?
References to a business - 'Sons of Zebedee.'
Which references? Stone somewhere, pottery shard? How do we know it's them? Peter isn't one of the Sons of Zebedee, so you're only halfway home anyway.
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Basiliscus of Comana and Rita of Cascia
-- Saints of the Day (22 May) on The Onion Dome
The Egg Princess: A New Fairy Tale
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Prudentius:
I find myself wondering if John felt that he had finished his work to the point that inciting the wrath and disapproval of Herod Antipas was a "no brainer."
I think that John definitely felt that he had finished his work. But I'm not sure that he then purposely martyred himself with his comments about Herod.
John's job was to "prepare the way of the Lord" by baptizing as many as he could in Israel.
According to my tradition, were it not for this symbolic "washing" the population would have suffered the "curse" promised in Malachi when Jesus began His public ministry:
quote:
Malachi4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
6 And he will turn
The hearts of the fathers to the children,
And the hearts of the children to their fathers,
Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.”
According to my tradition, the way that this would have worked would have been that the evil that was then so dominant in the spiritual world would have had an overwhelming reaction to Christ's holiness, and harmed the human population in the process.
But John's baptism surrounded the people with angels and protected them.
This was how things worked in ancient Israel, as may be seen from the Old Testament accounts.
So John's work was finished once he had baptized Jesus and Jesus had begun His public ministry.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12176 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Prudentius:
I find myself wondering if John felt that he had finished his work to the point that inciting the wrath and disapproval of Herod Antipas was a "no brainer."
I think that John definitely felt that he had finished his work.
So John's work was finished once he had baptized Jesus and Jesus had begun His public ministry.
This passage in Matthew indicates that John did not tell his disciples that his work was over and that they should now follow Jesus quote:
5:33 Then they said to him, “John’s disciples frequently fast and pray, and so do the disciples of the Pharisees, but yours continue to eat and drink.”
The references to John the Baptist in the Gospels, and especially in John and Matthew, can be viewed as containing an argument to the audiences of these Gospels who are still disciples of John the Baptist.
Perhaps it appears clearer to us with the benefit of hindsight.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
[This passage in Matthew indicates that John did not tell his disciples that his work was over and that they should now follow Jesus quote:
5:33 Then they said to him, “John’s disciples frequently fast and pray, and so do the disciples of the Pharisees, but yours continue to eat and drink.”
The references to John the Baptist in the Gospels, and especially in John and Matthew, can be viewed as containing an argument to the audiences of these Gospels who are still disciples of John the Baptist.
I think you are right.
I didn't mean that John would have closed up shop or that his disciples would have felt that their work was finished.
Obviously John did not live much longer after Jesus' baptism, although it's not clear how long that was. Jesus' own ministry was incredibly short - three years - so these are small windows of time.
Probably John's disciples would have sought to carry on his work even if they recognized that Jesus was the "coming One."
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12176 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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IconiumBound
Shipmate
# 754
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Posted
It's important to remember that when the Gospels were written, the disciples of John still had a sizable amount of adherants (and still do). It was the writer's intent to dismiss John as a forerunner to Jesus.
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IconiumBound:
It's important to remember that when the Gospels were written, the disciples of John still had a sizable amount of adherants (and still do). It was the writer's intent to dismiss John as a forerunner to Jesus.
Do you mean that John the Baptist was dismissed as only the forerunner to Jesus? Your last sentence reads as though they did not want John to be understood as the forerunner to Jesus.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
mt. That sounds right.
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I think this thread may work better in Kerygmania, so I'm off to check with Keryg Hosts.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Posting as a Shipmate, meantime.
My personal take on John 3.30 "He must increase, I must decrease" is primarily devotional. It acts as a reminder that one of the obstacles to following Jesus that I live with every day is the persistent power of my ego. I recall a similar comment by C S Lewis in reference to the well known scripture in Galatians 2 (I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, Christ lives in me). He observed that the text may be better translated as "and live no longer 'I'".
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 14626 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
We've agreed to move this to Kerygmania.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 14626 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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