Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Day of Atonement in the NRSV Leviticus
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Leviticus 23.29
I came across this description of the Day of Atonement in the NRSV which speaks of practicing “self-denail” and in a footnote glosses this a “fasing”.
There seems something wrong here.
I the first place, fasting for Jews on this day as long as anyone remembers means doing without food for twenty four hours. Self denial implies giving up sugar in tea or an extra sherry before dinner.
But it is use of the word self that worries me. The context makes it plain this is a communual activity but talking about self denial implies it is up to the individual to decide what to do. There is inevitably an element of self righteousnesss here which cannot arise if everyone capable is doing the same thing.
-------------------- Man was made for joy and woe; And when this we rightly know, Thro' the world we safely go.
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BroJames
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# 9636
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Posted
AFAICT, the basic sense of the verb here is to afflict or humble oneself, and the commentaries say that it "probably signifies" 'fasting', and cite Ps 35.13 quote: Yet when they were ill, I put on sackcloth and humbled myself with fasting. When my prayers returned to me unanswered,
and Isaiah 58.3 quote: Why have we fasted,’ they say, ‘and you have not seen it? Why have we humbled ourselves, and you have not noticed?’
I guess the thing is it was intended to be a corporate act in which the people humbled themselves before God, but this statement is about anyone who does not. In this context the word 'self' in English is simply functioning to make the verb reflexive, rather than an indication of individualisation.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by venbede: Leviticus 23.29
I came across this description of the Day of Atonement in the NRSV which speaks of practicing “self-denail” and in a footnote glosses this a “fasing”.
There seems something wrong here.
I the first place, fasting for Jews on this day as long as anyone remembers means doing without food for twenty four hours. Self denial implies giving up sugar in tea or an extra sherry before dinner.
But it is use of the word self that worries me. The context makes it plain this is a communual activity but talking about self denial implies it is up to the individual to decide what to do. There is inevitably an element of self righteousnesss here which cannot arise if everyone capable is doing the same thing.
This makes perfect sense in an Orthodox context. But I think your concept of "self denial" is quite different from ours. To fast is to deny one's appetites. Not just appetites for sugar in tea. You have limited the term for some reason to mean merely denial of small things. Christ going voluntarily to his death was a form of self-denial. Any time you say, "not my will but thy will be done," it's self-denial.
We also fast communally (as you probably know for us "fast" has taken the form of abstaining from certain, but usually not all, foods). But if I agree to go without certain foods, what does it change that others are there with me going without those same foods? How does that change what I am doing from self-denial to something else (group-denial?)?
And even if fasting is prescribed by the Church, I still have to decide to go along. I could rebel and not fast at all. I could decide I just don't want to, and not consider it a problem that I don't. Nobody is going to pop round my house to ensure I'm complying. (Although meeting other Orthodoxen in the meat section of the grocery store can be embarrassing. Not that I know anything about this.*) In order to take part in the communal activity, however, I have to decide for myself. I have to self-deny.
______________________ *Even someone not "cheating" may need to eat meat for various reasons. It's between them and their doctor and their family and their priest. One does what one can. For this reason we have the saying "Keep your eyes on your own plate."
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by BroJames: AFAICT, the basic sense of the verb here is to afflict or humble oneself, and the commentaries say that it "probably signifies" 'fasting'.
That makes more sense. I'm still cautious of self-denial as a translation, but I can't think of any other alternative to fasting.
-------------------- Man was made for joy and woe; And when this we rightly know, Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Latchkey Kid
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# 12444
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by BroJames: AFAICT, the basic sense of the verb here is to afflict or humble oneself, and the commentaries say that it "probably signifies" 'fasting', and cite Ps 35.13 quote: Yet when they were ill, I put on sackcloth and humbled myself with fasting. When my prayers returned to me unanswered,
An aside.
Why is the NRSV transaltion so different? quote: I prayed with head bowed on my bosom, 14 as though I grieved for a friend or a brother; I went about as one who laments for a mother, bowed down and in mourning
-------------------- 'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.' Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Latchkey Kid: quote: Originally posted by BroJames: AFAICT, the basic sense of the verb here is to afflict or humble oneself, and the commentaries say that it "probably signifies" 'fasting', and cite Ps 35.13 quote: Yet when they were ill, I put on sackcloth and humbled myself with fasting. When my prayers returned to me unanswered,
An aside.
Why is the NRSV transaltion so different? quote: I prayed with head bowed on my bosom, 14 as though I grieved for a friend or a brother; I went about as one who laments for a mother, bowed down and in mourning
You've joined part of verse 13 with verse 14.
-------------------- "Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Lyda*Rose: quote: Originally posted by Latchkey Kid: quote: Originally posted by BroJames: AFAICT, the basic sense of the verb here is to afflict or humble oneself, and the commentaries say that it "probably signifies" 'fasting', and cite Ps 35.13 quote: Yet when they were ill, I put on sackcloth and humbled myself with fasting. When my prayers returned to me unanswered,
An aside.
Why is the NRSV transaltion so different? quote: I prayed with head bowed on my bosom, 14 as though I grieved for a friend or a brother; I went about as one who laments for a mother, bowed down and in mourning
You've joined part of verse 13 with verse 14.
My point was that the NRSV does not mention anything about "my prayers returned to me unanswered".
-------------------- 'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.' Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Oh, sorry.
-------------------- "Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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