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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Blood everywhere
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+26-27&version=NIV
I do not want to step on Eutychus' question. But I want to make an observation.
It begins with Jesus eating Passover with his disciples. Passover referring to the Angel of Death passing over the houses where blood was painted on the door, Jesus sharing his body and blood, a companion of Jesus cutting off a guard's ear (blood), Judas realizing he betrayed an innocent man, Pilot disclaiming his responsibility for the blood of an innocent man, the people accepting the responsibility (his blood will be on us and our children), the soldiers mocking Jesus) and even the crucifixion.
Throughout the story the direct or indirect references to blood reaches a crescendo. This seems to go to Jeremiah’s prophecy that the temple and the city of Jerusalem would be destroyed because the city was filled with the blood of the innocent ( Jeremiah 19:3-8 and 22:3-5; compare to 7:5-7; 26:13-15). Given that Jesus echoed Jeremiah’s temple sermon when he cleansed the temple, and that the witnesses at Jesus’ trial testified that he had said he would tear down the temple, it seems clear that Matthew understands the Romans’ destruction of Jerusalem and the temple as an act of divine judgment.
Now to the question I have, since Jesus says his blood is for the forgiveness of sins, echoing the sin offering of Leveticus 4:25, 34, 5:9 , does this forgiveness extend to those who condemned and executed Jesus?
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I am sure it must. Didn't Jesus Himself pray for the Father to forgive them?
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Yes, thank God it did. Forgiveness was obtained for all and offered to all.
Whether they repented and availed themselves of that forgiveness we'll not know until we get to Glory.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
And what difference does that make?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Now to the question I have, since Jesus says his blood is for the forgiveness of sins, echoing the sin offering of Leveticus 4:25, 34, 5:9 , does this forgiveness extend to those who condemned and executed Jesus?
If forgiveness is not available for everyone, then there must be some doubt as to whether it is available for anyone. That does mean, though that forgiveness must be available for:
- Those who condemned Jesus
- Those who mocked Jesus
- Those who betrayed Jesus
- Those who denied Jesus
- Adolf Hitler
- Josef Stalin
- Pol Pot
- Those who conducted the Rwandan genocide
- Those who conspired to drop chemical weapons in Syria
- All terrorists
Forgiveness is rather troubling really.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
Well, forgiveness (at least in the Bible) requires repentance. If you aren't sorry for what you did, you haven't repented, and won't be forgiven (or rather acquitted), since you haven't actually asked for forgiveness deep down.
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
Well, forgiveness (at least in the Bible) requires repentance. If you aren't sorry for what you did, you haven't repented, and won't be forgiven (or rather acquitted), since you haven't actually asked for forgiveness deep down.
What does it mean to ask for forgiveness "deep down"?
The father of the prodigal forgives his son BEFORE the son speaks his repentance piece. He's just glad to see him again.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
Well, forgiveness (at least in the Bible) requires repentance. If you aren't sorry for what you did, you haven't repented, and won't be forgiven (or rather acquitted), since you haven't actually asked for forgiveness deep down.
Again, what difference does it make?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The father of the prodigal forgives his son BEFORE the son speaks his repentance piece. He's just glad to see him again.
God always holds out forgiveness, but we have to reach out and take it. This involves repentance. I once heard a sermon about the prodigal son which pointed out what a disappointment it would have been to his father if the son had brushed off his welcome and kept insisting that he be treated as a hired servant.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
I think it's pretty clear in the story that the father's welcome and forgiveness are unconditional—and that they take both sons by surprise. The son doesn't reach out and take the father's forgiveness; he just accepts it.
That said, I also think that the words of repentance that the son speaks, or tries to speak, to his father are not the moment of repentance. The real moment of repentance (metanoia) was when the son "came to himself," turned around and went home.
[ 14. April 2017, 12:23: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Now to the question I have, since Jesus says his blood is for the forgiveness of sins, echoing the sin offering of Leveticus 4:25, 34, 5:9 , does this forgiveness extend to those who condemned and executed Jesus?
Mudfrog is right; you are too. Blood is the currency of forgiveness. Regarding the prodigal, his heart change is surely evidenced in his journey home. Had he stayed in the pig pen, would his father have done anything to change his circumstances? No, he was lost and would have stayed lost.
[ 14. April 2017, 22:44: Message edited by: Jamat ]
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Now to the question I have, since Jesus says his blood is for the forgiveness of sins, echoing the sin offering of Leveticus 4:25, 34, 5:9 , does this forgiveness extend to those who condemned and executed Jesus?
If forgiveness is not available for everyone, then there must be some doubt as to whether it is available for anyone. That does mean, though that forgiveness must be available for:
- Those who condemned Jesus
- Those who mocked Jesus
- Those who betrayed Jesus
- Those who denied Jesus
- Adolf Hitler
- Josef Stalin
- Pol Pot
- Those who conducted the Rwandan genocide
- Those who conspired to drop chemical weapons in Syria
- All terrorists
Forgiveness is rather troubling really.
Why is this troubling?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Now to the question I have, since Jesus says his blood is for the forgiveness of sins, echoing the sin offering of Leveticus 4:25, 34, 5:9 , does this forgiveness extend to those who condemned and executed Jesus?
Mudfrog is right; you are too. Blood is the currency of forgiveness. Regarding the prodigal, his heart change is surely evidenced in his journey home. Had he stayed in the pig pen, would his father have done anything to change his circumstances? No, he was lost and would have stayed lost.
Why would he have stayed in the pig pen when there was a way out? Out of sheer insane stubbornness? He was a drowning man and saw a line.
Does the forgiveness in the blood off Christ extend to the utterly innocent?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Why is this troubling?
No purpose for the In Club if everyone is in the club.
No reason to be good if there is no stick to be beaten with for being bad. "What? No punishment? Then I'm off to rape some goats, see you at the cannibal orgy tonight!"
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:Why is this troubling?
Because it means I have to follow the example and hold out the offer of forgivemess* to those who I quite enjoy hating.
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(*not a typo).
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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