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Source: (consider it) Thread: What are we going to do about men in politics?
Adeodatus
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In the last 24 hours or so in British politics
- a cabinet minister has had to apologise for trivialising sexual assault on national radio
- a member of the House of Lords has somehow escaped censure for egging-on said cabinet minister’s “joke”
- an MP is in the news for allegedly “sexting” a 19-year-old woman who applied for a job
- another minister has confessed to at least some of the allegations against him, which include calling his secretary “sugar tits” and sending her to buy sex toys for him.

I may have missed some of what’s going on.

So, what are we going to do about men in politics? Already, the “not all men are like that” apologists are out in force, but doesn’t there come a point where you start to think that in far too many cases, there are those whose political ambitions and philosophy begins and ends in their trousers? It seems to me that the Augean stables have got nothing on this lot - but who’s going to muck-out our politics? And how?

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Boogie

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Why just politics?

They are everywhere, these men. They just need calling out on their behaviour by everyone who witnesses it. Then we will begin to get somewhere.

Make it socially unacceptable, don’t shuffle your feet or snigger or turn away. Confront it. Be brave.

I found this very easy to do with racism wherever I met it. With sexism - whether in words or harassment or assault - not so easy.

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sabine
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People in power have many, many opportunities to abuse that power. Men have (mostly) been in power for most of history. I'm wondering if we aren't seeing the messy crumbling of traditional power structures.

This assessment of mine doesn't actually answer the question "what over do." I guess my answer would be keep calling out abuse of power whenever and wherever.

sabine

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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Why just politics?

I think the power imbalance is probably worse in politics than in most jobs.

If you believe in your party's cause, then you can't just vote with your feet and work for a different party, and you'll probably feel under pressure to keep quiet so as not to damage whatever cause the party is fighting for.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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wild haggis
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Let's face it, it's men who think they have power over women to do and say what they want with immunity. Sadly, most other men allow them to.

When mixed with the power of politics or the media, it becomes worse.

I think it needs to be taken seriously when a woman complains and not just brushed under the carpet and sniggered at by men around.

Maybe we women should give men a taste of their own medicine and start passing personal comments about them - especially their sexy (or lack of) bits! See how they like it!

So come on ladies, let's give the bullies a taste of their own medicine - maybe a good well aimed kick in the crouch? What about an old fashioned hat pin!!!!!!!!!

Better not, we will only get get done for assault. Sadly it's not equality when it comes to us! Why aren't men done for assault when they have a good pinch of a women's butt?

Men the problem is you.
So do something about it.

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wild haggis

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by wild haggis:
Maybe we women should give men a taste of their own medicine and start passing personal comments about them - especially their sexy (or lack of) bits! See how they like it!

So your answer to sexual harassment at work is to increase it, rather than end it? Become the problem rather than seek a solution?

That'll work. Brilliant idea. (Except that female-on-male harassment in female-majority workspaces is rife, and you can draw your own conclusions as to how effective your suggestion is.)

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by wild haggis:
Men the problem is you.
So do something about it.

We're too busy feeling butt-hurt that women are mad at us. As witness:

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by wild haggis:
Maybe we women should give men a taste of their own medicine and start passing personal comments about them - especially their sexy (or lack of) bits! See how they like it!

So your answer to sexual harassment at work is to increase it, rather than end it? Become the problem rather than seek a solution?

That'll work. Brilliant idea. (Except that female-on-male harassment in female-majority workspaces is rife, and you can draw your own conclusions as to how effective your suggestion is.)

Did you miss the part where she walks this back? Talk about fragility.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Ohher
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Before men are men, they are boys. We need a thoughtful look at how we bring men up, the role models we supply them with, and the fact that, developmentally, boys tend to be raised by women and seem to spend a good deal of psychic energy on differentiating themselves from femininity as they individuate.

[ 29. October 2017, 14:44: Message edited by: Ohher ]

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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Did you miss the part where she walks this back? Talk about fragility.

Or previous victim.

I didn't find the suggestion amusing, that's all. Perhaps I should have learned to laugh it off?

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Forward the New Republic

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
Before men are men, they are boys. We need a thoughtful look at how we bring men up, the role models we supply them with, and the fact that, developmentally, boys tend to be raised by women and seem to spend a good deal of psychic energy on differentiating themselves from femininity as they individuate.

Interesting stuff. I have come across a ton of this stuff, partly in psychoanalysis, and also in wilder fringe elements. I honestly don't know how much credence to give it - that boys are struggling to become not-female.

One of the big shocks which Freud received was when female analysts (Karen Horney, and so on), began to report male envy of women's bodies, breast envy, and so on. I think Freud just blanked it out, but we are still wrestling with it. Thus, the female body becomes enviable and also greatly feared by some boys - but so what? What do we do now?

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Did you miss the part where she walks this back? Talk about fragility.

Or previous victim.
You mean you sexually harrassed a woman and she fought back? And you seek sympathy?

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Did you miss the part where she walks this back? Talk about fragility.

Or previous victim.
You mean you sexually harrassed a woman and she fought back? And you seek sympathy?
[Roll Eyes]

I mean, yes, that's exactly the opposite of what I mean.

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Forward the New Republic

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quetzalcoatl
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I thought Doc Tor was referring to women sexually harassing men? It happened to me a lot, and of course, you laugh it off. I don't know how this connects with the reverse abuse, or how to deal with it, I suppose by a general campaign against abuse and harassment.

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Did you miss the part where she walks this back? Talk about fragility.

Or previous victim.
You mean you sexually harrassed a woman and she fought back? And you seek sympathy?
[Roll Eyes]

I mean, yes, that's exactly the opposite of what I mean.

Now your answers have gone straight to cryptic bordering on passive aggressive. Getting harder and harder to work up any sympathy.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I thought Doc Tor was referring to women sexually harassing men? It happened to me a lot, and of course, you laugh it off. I don't know how this connects with the reverse abuse, or how to deal with it, I suppose by a general campaign against abuse and harassment.

This, for the hard of thinking.

I make damn sure that in all my professional dealings that they stay professional. Are there times when I could exploit my position (such that it is). Yes? Have I ever done it? No. Why? Because I'm not a dick, and neither do I think with one. I also trust I've communicated those ethics to my son.

Ohher is right. It starts at home - it doesn't stop there, for sure, but that's where it starts.

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Forward the New Republic

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

One of the big shocks which Freud received was when female analysts (Karen Horney, and so on), began to report male envy of women's bodies, breast envy, and so on. I think Freud just blanked it out, but we are still wrestling with it. Thus, the female body becomes enviable and also greatly feared by some boys - but so what? What do we do now?

Pretty much thought that Horney rejected the general concept, with exceptions. Positing instead that it was the power, not the part, that was envied.
There will always be abuse, but refusing to accept it as part of the environment is the first step in reducing it.
Ironically perhaps, though power is a component, females harassing males in the workplace is a child of sexism.

[ 29. October 2017, 15:40: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

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LutheranChik
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One ominous reaction to the current calling out of lecherous males is that some men are retaliating by refusing to interact one on one with women in the workplace. Our Vice-President, for instance, refuses to meet with women alone. My fear is that this kind of thing is going to set back women's economic and political equity by decades. There's a reactionary rump in our armed forces ( supported by Pence) that wants to limit women's roles in the military to the way things wete in the 40's or 50's.

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

One of the big shocks which Freud received was when female analysts (Karen Horney, and so on), began to report male envy of women's bodies, breast envy, and so on. I think Freud just blanked it out, but we are still wrestling with it. Thus, the female body becomes enviable and also greatly feared by some boys - but so what? What do we do now?

Pretty much thought that Horney rejected the general concept, with exceptions. Positing instead that it was the power, not the part, that was envied.
There will always be abuse, but refusing to accept it as part of the environment is the first step in reducing it.
Ironically perhaps, though power is a component, females harassing males in the workplace is a child of sexism.

Yes, she criticized the idea of penis envy as it left out the point about male power, which is not just about penises.

But her notion of womb envy (later extended to breast envy), is also about power, I think.

But I think the idea that some men greatly envy, fear and hate women is accurate. And you can connect this with being raised by a woman in some cases, but then it is all so complex.

But I think Freud could not conceive of how a male could envy a woman, well, maybe that is a bit unjust.

[ 29. October 2017, 16:04: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

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keibat
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quwtzalcoatl wroe:
quote:
I thought Doc Tor was referring to women sexually harassing men? It happened to me a lot, and of course, you laugh it off. I don't know how this connects with the reverse abuse,
BUT it's much easier to 'laugh abuse off' if you are in the default-dominant/empowered status, which adult men are (even or perhaps especially in women-majority contexts). Massively easier. One of the points that's emerging fom the current surge of revelations in the entertainment industry and in professional politics is that women (and children) keep quiet because they do not feel they have the 'clout' – perceived authority – to be heard.

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Brenda Clough
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These are free clicks:

A case could be made that men are not emotionally suited to be in the workplace. Tongue in cheek? You be the judge.

A call for men to act. Because by now there is massive and overwhelming proof that this is not women imagining things, not malicious female fakery, not our being unable to take a joke har har. You can no longer be a decent man and not help on this. If you don't, we know who you're with.

I can't find the article now, which argued that this change in women's attitude is a result of the election. But this week is the one-year anniversary of the famous 'grab her by the pussy' tape. That moment, IMO, was the beginning. And the election of the creep who said it shows that something has to be done.

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Ohher
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quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
One ominous reaction to the current calling out of lecherous males is that some men are retaliating by refusing to interact one on one with women in the workplace.

I agree this is, if a trend, an ominous reaction. It is also faulty logic. Our workplace categories now include not only women and men, but also straights and gays and bi and trans, etc. So segregating the sexes protects no one from anything.

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by keibat:
quwtzalcoatl wroe:
quote:
I thought Doc Tor was referring to women sexually harassing men? It happened to me a lot, and of course, you laugh it off. I don't know how this connects with the reverse abuse,
BUT it's much easier to 'laugh abuse off' if you are in the default-dominant/empowered status, which adult men are (even or perhaps especially in women-majority contexts). Massively easier.
This is barely one step away from "they enjoy it really". Perhaps some men do. Men in general, not so much. A bit like, oh, I don't know, women.

I'd like to think that it's a relatively straight forward idea, that when talking to a work colleague, you talk to them about work, and you keep your hands to yourself. Unfortunately, experience has proved me, and almost everyone else, wrong.

I'm now in a position where I don't have to leave the house for around 50 weeks of the year. Which is a good thing, because most people just suck at being decent and I don't have to interact with them.

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Brenda Clough
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This is from the POST, a conscientious and clearly decent man looking back on his job with an abusive boss. Abusive of women, and also the male underlings who didn't take care to get onto his good side. And so the writer (young and new in his career) said nothing.

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by keibat:
quwtzalcoatl wroe:
quote:
I thought Doc Tor was referring to women sexually harassing men? It happened to me a lot, and of course, you laugh it off. I don't know how this connects with the reverse abuse,
BUT it's much easier to 'laugh abuse off' if you are in the default-dominant/empowered status, which adult men are (even or perhaps especially in women-majority contexts). Massively easier. One of the points that's emerging fom the current surge of revelations in the entertainment industry and in professional politics is that women (and children) keep quiet because they do not feel they have the 'clout' – perceived authority – to be heard.
I'm curious how you know it's massively easier. I can't say that I thought that I had the clout to complain about women harassing me. Laughter is a way of being complicit.

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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Ohher
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Recently, a male colleague left, virtually unremarked, the junior college where I teach. I happened to be the last co-worker he'd see before departing.

We exchanged emails, remarks, memories for a few minutes, and then came the momentary postural hesitation, and then he said, "May I hug you?"

It was simple, decent, appropriate -- I've known this guy for more than a quarter of a century -- and brief.

It was also the first time I could recall any male co-worker ever asking permission before swooping in for the expected embrace in rare moments of farewell, celebration, etc.

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by keibat:
BUT it's much easier to 'laugh abuse off' if you are in the default-dominant/empowered status, which adult men are (even or perhaps especially in women-majority contexts). Massively easier. One of the points that's emerging fom the current surge of revelations in the entertainment industry and in professional politics is that women (and children) keep quiet because they do not feel they have the 'clout' – perceived authority – to be heard.

But it's only on average that men are dominant. It doesn't follow that men are dominant whenever harassment of any kind is present.

It does seem to me that male-on-female harassment is more common than the other way round, but it's not clear to me whether this is because

a.) Men want to harass women more than women want to harass men; or
b.) Men have more power and so are more likely to get away with it.

If (a) is true, then the solution is a combination of men's education and female empowerment.

If (b) is true, then female empowerment won't necessarily solve the issue; it'll just put more women in a position where they can harass men. So harassment may end up more equitably distributed between the sexes but the overall level of harassment won't actually go down.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
It was also the first time I could recall any male co-worker ever asking permission before swooping in for the expected embrace in rare moments of farewell, celebration, etc.

I had that happen a number of years ago. Mr. Drop-Dead-Gorgeous had accepted another job, and when he was leaving he asked me -- since we were no longer co-workers -- if he could give me a hug. You betcha! [Yipee]

He was a really nice guy, which surprised me when he came to work for us. I have my own stereotypes and assumed anyone that attractive would think he was God's gift to women.

(He was also much younger than me and had a serious girlfriend... oh well!)

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Golden Key
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Doc Tor--

I'm sorry for your bad experience.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Golden Key
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Even former president George H. W. Bush has sexually harassed women. A couple of them came forward, recently. He reportedly touched their backsides, making a joke of "Who's my favorite magician? David Cop-a-feel." (Copperfield)
[Mad]

A statement was put out to the effect of "he sometimes does things playfully, but apologizes for any distress he may have caused".

I don't know if he still does this. I think he's in his 90s, but that doesn't mean he's stopped. He seems to do it when a woman is standing next to him, as when having a picture taken.

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--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
It does seem to me that male-on-female harassment is more common than the other way round, but it's not clear to me whether this is because

a.) Men want to harass women more than women want to harass men; or
b.) Men have more power and so are more likely to get away with it.

If (a) is true, then the solution is a combination of men's education and female empowerment.

If (b) is true, then female empowerment won't necessarily solve the issue; it'll just put more women in a position where they can harass men. So harassment may end up more equitably distributed between the sexes but the overall level of harassment won't actually go down.

I think it's (b). If you look at the rates of domestic violence, there's been a gradual upswing of female on male/female violence until they are (at least in some studies) equal. This is not to say that male on male/female DV doesn't usually have more serious consequences, because it does.

It certainly doesn't excuse anything. Men exploiting their positions of economic power to harass, demean and extract sexual favours from other women/men is vile, and it's right, given the societal dynamic we have today, that we focus on that. But we all, men and women, need to be alive to the temptations that come with power. This can't be seen as a 'men only' problem. Because it's not.

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Erroneous Monk
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
But we all, men and women, need to be alive to the temptations that come with power. This can't be seen as a 'men only' problem. Because it's not.

Slight tangent, but if you've done it, is there any way to redeem yourself other than apologising and never doing it again for the rest of your life?

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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
But we all, men and women, need to be alive to the temptations that come with power. This can't be seen as a 'men only' problem. Because it's not.

Slight tangent, but if you've done it, is there any way to redeem yourself other than apologising and never doing it again for the rest of your life?
I don't know about redemption. But the start of that would be repentance, a turning-away. Is that enough? Restitution is also part of it. Apologies, for certain, but it's up to the wronged parties to accept or not. Giving up the power or the position that enabled you? That too might well be necessary.

Redemption indicates a measure of restitution as well as repentance. Sorry may well be the hardest word, but how the person's life changes from then on is an ongoing indication of heart. If someone who's previously abused their position just carries on in their position, minus the abuse, is that redemption?

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
If you look at the rates of domestic violence, there's been a gradual upswing of female on male/female violence

Definitely
quote:

until they are (at least in some studies) equal.

This I don’t buy. Culturally men are dominant and this affects behaviour strongly. The studies that suggest parity are in the minority.
quote:

But we all, men and women, need to be alive to the temptations that come with power. This can't be seen as a 'men only' problem. Because it's not.

No, it isn’t a men only problem just as racism isn’t a white only problem. The problems with the presentation of either are similar. One group having had that power for so long has caused an imbalance that cannot be ignored or the imbalance will never be redressed.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Brenda Clough
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And it is sadly notable (I've noticed it more than once on these boards) that if someone posts about men abusing women, immediately someone will pop up with, "But what about women abusing men?"

It whiffs of the insistence in the US among some Christians that the Christian church is being persecuted. That the culture is overwhelmingly Christian (are the Xmas decorations up at your store yet? They are in mine) and that the faith is the sweeping majority in the population is somehow not relevant.

If the discussion is about Weinsteinian abuses then it's not very helpful and verges upon sealioning.

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L'organist
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There is something deeply troubling that the people who argue (IMV correctly) that DT's behaviour as a sex-pest made him unfit to be POTUS are then silent about the husband of the other candidate.

And while it is right to try to offer help to those who are being (or have been) preyed upon, what about the women in power - Harriet Harman, Diane Abbott, Edwina Currie, etc, etc, etc - who must have known about some of these things and yet have kept silent? Don't try to tell me that Ms Abbott or Ms Currie were likely to be frightened off speaking out for any reason other than they placed their own career advancement above decent behaviour by their (male) colleagues towards researchers, journalists and secretaries in and around the HoP.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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MarsmanTJ
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It's going to be interesting. Theresa May literally cannot fire more than one of her MPs, or risks losing her majority in the House of Commons. According to The Independent, which is fairly anti-Tory biased, there's a lot of them that probably should be...
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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
There is something deeply troubling that the people who argue (IMV correctly) that DT's behaviour as a sex-pest made him unfit to be POTUS are then silent about the husband of the other candidate.

I'd suggest that Bill Clinton at least knew that what he was doing was wrong. Trump appears to take a "Good Ol' Boy" pride in his antics.

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
And it is sadly notable (I've noticed it more than once on these boards) that if someone posts about men abusing women, immediately someone will pop up with, "But what about women abusing men?"

It might be sadly notable, but there is an awful lot of people for whom the problem is simply abuse. We can work together, or you can ignore half the issue.

Men who've been abused by other men or by women, and women who've been abused by women, in the workplace and in the home, deserve to be part of the conversation. Unless you think otherwise, of course.

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quetzalcoatl
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I have such a sense of hurt and outrage, that I tend to speak out about being abused. I suppose we could all exist in separate compartments, and only speak to identikits.

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lilBuddha
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[brick wall] [brick wall] [brick wall]
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It might be sadly notable, but there is an awful lot of people for whom the problem is simply abuse. We can work together, or you can ignore half the issue.

Men who've been abused by other men or by women, and women who've been abused by women, in the workplace and in the home, deserve to be part of the conversation. Unless you think otherwise, of course.

It is not simply abuse. If you decide to punch me, for no reason, then it is simply abuse. However, if you punch me because you think power gives you permission, then understanding why you think this is true is important. Especially if society gives explicit or implicit approval of that power dynamic.
(Spoiler alert: it does!)
It is not half the problem for several reasons.
One is that half the victims are not men. Even were your domestic studies valid, workplace abuse is massively imbalanced.¹
Another that abuse of men by women is within the framework that men created.²

Simply attributing it to power ignores the cockeyed system we have and will perpetuate it.


¹Not that balancing the abuse is the goal.
²Less completely so in the home or in every individual case in work or public, but still generally.

[ 30. October 2017, 14:42: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
It's going to be interesting. Theresa May literally cannot fire more than one of her MPs, or risks losing her majority in the House of Commons. According to The Independent, which is fairly anti-Tory biased, there's a lot of them that probably should be...

He can be fired from a position but not as an MP. That is down to his constituents.
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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
And it is sadly notable (I've noticed it more than once on these boards) that if someone posts about men abusing women, immediately someone will pop up with, "But what about women abusing men?"

It might be sadly notable, but there is an awful lot of people for whom the problem is simply abuse. We can work together, or you can ignore half the issue.

Men who've been abused by other men or by women, and women who've been abused by women, in the workplace and in the home, deserve to be part of the conversation. Unless you think otherwise, of course.

Nurses of a certain vintage (like Mrs M) will have very painful stories of institutional and positional abuse from senior female staff. Bullying was a way of life and various Sisters told Mrs M that it was their intention to make her cry.

Their voice needs to be heard as does the voice of men subjected to innuendo and verbal abuse in an otherwise all female work force.

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quetzalcoatl
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I don't know, I can see why women want to talk about abuse in a place just for them. Of course they do.

I suppose on a forum like this, you could have a sub-heading on some threads - only for women, and so on.

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It is not simply abuse. If you decide to punch me, for no reason, then it is simply abuse. However, if you punch me because you think power gives you permission, then understanding why you think this is true is important. Especially if society gives explicit or implicit approval of that power dynamic.
(Spoiler alert: it does!)

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm saying, it's the power dynamic that gives the impression of permission to abuse freely. And so are you.

Except when you say it, you don't seem to think it applies to women in positions of power.

I'm also not disagreeing with you that it's mainly men in positions of power. But I am also saying, and you appear to be denying, that subordinate men also suffer abuse under that system.

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quetzalcoatl
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It depends whether you ascribe abuse to power relations, of a hierarchical kind, or to gender itself. Of course, gender intersects with power relations, via patriarchy.

But there is an essentialist view that the male is intrinsically violent and abusive, and this is not just because of a social role.

And against that, there is the view that men are socialized to be violent, since society needs that.

I did think that essentialism was less common today, but I'm not sure.

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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Is there an aspect missing in the discussion of these issues, which is that, for humans, sexuality is part of every interaction with others humans? We're either aware of it or not. The problem is partly people, men, not following the rules for civilized behaviour they know they should, but more importantly the lack of internalized controls borne of empathy and proper understanding of the effects of not doing so.
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

Except when you say it, you don't seem to think it applies to women in positions of power.

Incorrect.
quote:

I'm also not disagreeing with you that it's mainly men in positions of power. But I am also saying, and you appear to be denying, that subordinate men also suffer abuse under that system.

Not even close.
I am saying that subordinate men suffer abuse because of the system men set up. Fixing the problem requires addressing the general power imbalance as well as not accepting individual cases of abuse.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
And it is sadly notable (I've noticed it more than once on these boards) that if someone posts about men abusing women, immediately someone will pop up with, "But what about women abusing men?"

Yes, it's quite hard to say 'What about women abusing men?' without, well, whatabouttery.

But the OP isn't asking 'Is harassment a bad thing?' (duh) but 'What should be done about it?' And the answer to that question will depend on whether you think men harass women more because they're intrinsically nastier, or because they get more opportunities.

Maybe men are less empathetic than women, so the threshold at which we stop caring that someone might not want to see a picture of our genitalia is lower. How you answer that question will affect what you think the solution is, and it's hard to answer it without considering the case of women-on-men abuse.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
I agree this is, if a trend, an ominous reaction. It is also faulty logic. Our workplace categories now include not only women and men, but also straights and gays and bi and trans, etc. So segregating the sexes protects no one from anything.

The men who do this are publicly known to be straight (generally, they would have rather strong religious objections to anything else), so they consider themselves "at risk" - either to being overcome with lust, misunderstood, have false allegations made against them or whatever - when in the company of a woman, but not when with a man.
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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

I am saying that subordinate men suffer abuse because of the system men set up.

The ancestor of heirarchical systems is surely pecking order instinct. Which we see enforced in communal animals by both makes and females.

I think the system was set up (if that is the right term) by evolutionary processes, which is why heirarchical controls can be found in most human cultures.

This doesn't deny the impact of male dominance, of course. But I don't believe either men or women are free from pecking order instinctive influences. They go with the grain of our evolutionary inheritance. Which is not to say we shouldn't try to remove the baleful consequences, create fairer structures. We just need to recognise what we're up against in seeking reform.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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