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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: First they came for
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
This thread is inspired by the Evangelical fascist thread and the death of Brunhilde Pomsel , Joseph Goebbel's secretary. She is quoted as saying:
quote:
"The people who today say they would have done more for those poor, persecuted Jews… I really believe that they sincerely mean it," she said in interviews for A German Life. "But they wouldn't have done it either."
Unfortunately, I think she is correct.
Being in a safe, privileged position;* I can protest the maltreatment of others. I would like to think to think I would do so in conditions more fraught with personal danger.
But history says this is unlikely.
This is why small ersosions of freedom, such as those being considered and implimented, are so dangerous. Are the U.K. and the US in imminent danger of becoming fascist? No. But the first steps, intentional or not, are being taken.
The proper time to make a stand is not when the army is at your border, but when the conflict can be avoided.
*Relatively speaking.
[ 30. January 2017, 17:55: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The proper time to make a stand is not when the army is at your border, but when the conflict can be avoided.
Amen. And it takes more than protesting in the streets. Those kinds of things call attention to the wrong being done, and they give us a high.
But the real work of resistance and opposition follows--and it requires perseverance. It is slow, tedious work.
And so so important.
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
Indeed, but this raises so many issues for me.
Off topic, but what frightens me is that I share being a member of the same species as Trump, Hitler, those who crashed into the WTC... What has made them tip over the edge? Or what is stopping me, perhaps?
That slow, tedious work sabine writes of seems important. I confess, as per the quote lilBuddha gave, that I'd have been goose-stepping with the rest of them. Ashamed to say it, but I can't lie and think I would have been different.
The small erosions of freedom comment strikes me as true. And I suppose answers a concern I have that marches, protests, etc. are meaningless. I wonder if I am in a leftie-bubble: I read and subscribe to left-leaning media, most of my friends and colleagues are left, my sensitivities go that way... So I hear about all these "massive" protests and whinge and whine with friends about what is happening... But what does Joe and Jill Average think? Do they just dismiss them, or think "Well done" and not give it another thought?
Were the protests really that big? I mean no offence to the great people who marched [I am in awe of you personally] but I'm guessing more people watched sport or went to a religious service that day than marched. And 1,000,000 in the UK signing a petition -- clicking a website hardly seems like manning the barricades? But is this the place to start? Does a relatively small [population-wise] protest start something, encourage others at home they are not alone, let leaders know they are being watched???
Apathy is probably a killer here. Would I drive 3 hours to a protest in Canberra or Melbourne? Honestly, probably not. Says more about me and my bad attitude to this [and my social anxiety...but why should it win?]. I am seeking change, in myself, so I'd be curious to thoughts.
[ 30. January 2017, 19:01: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
The small erosions of freedom comment strikes me as true.
quote:
But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked — if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in ’43 had come immediately after the ‘German Firm’ stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in ’33. But of course this isn’t the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at Step C? And so on to Step D.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
I've been thinking about fascism a lot. I don't think Trump or Farage or Le Pen are fascists, but as the OP states, they could be steps along the way. Or we might sleep-walk into it.
As to what to do - how can anyone prescribe this? I like the idea of resistance, but that is a many-coloured coat.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I've been thinking about fascism a lot. I don't think Trump or Farage or Le Pen are fascists, but as the OP states, they could be steps along the way. Or we might sleep-walk into it.
If enough people decide that they're not going to allow it, they may never get to grow into fully fledged fascists.
I hear people saying that the language is all wrong, that we are over-reacting and that we should give Trump a chance. But what if in "giving him a chance" that lets loose a snowball that nobody can stop?
Is it worse to say that these things may be the mark of something really bad in the future and to be wrong (but then.. if we act and stop it happening, would we have been wrong in saying that this was the direction of travel?) or to refrain from making these comparisons and somehow allow them it to grow?
quote:
As to what to do - how can anyone prescribe this? I like the idea of resistance, but that is a many-coloured coat.
Yes, that's true. And we definitely need new tactics than have been used before. It is one thing to stand around in a large group at a protest, it is another thing to turn that into something which has a lasting effect.
But then at least we are having this conversation rather than passively letting it happen.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
A sense of entitlement comes quickly with politicians. Being aware during these first steps is important.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
quote:
The proper time to make a stand is not when the army is at your border, but when the conflict can be avoided.
Yes but it takes wisdom and careful analysis.
For example, some on the Right IMO quite sincerely believe that the most prominent tendency to recategorise people as non-people, so that they can be eliminated, is the current policy on abortion. And the spread of euthanasia could follow.
I am sensitive to these issues, maybe for the odd reason that by nature I find it all too easy to see some life as "life unworthy of life" which was a phrase coined by the Nazis ( Lebensunwertiges Leben) and I believe the first order for state killing was of severely mentally damaged children, initially in response to a parental request. My intuition is that it is deeply wrong but it worries me because the rational arguments are quite strong, both for abortion and euthanasia (both in themselves DH issues, I assume).
Now many on this board, and amongst the US progressives (who barred pro-life groups from their Women's marches) will think this is nonsense, and assume I've gone over to the alt-right.
What I am saying by stirring this up, is that it is very difficult to achieve consensus on so many issues, so that when you talk in general about "creeping fascism" you need to identify exactly what your issues are, and why you see them as creeping fascism. And try to avoid only seeing danger from the totalitarian Right.
So what first steps are being taken in the UK on the road to Fascism. I only say UK because that is where I know a bit about what's going on.
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
I wonder how long it took before the German people realize that Hitler was an extremist.
You don't know if you can say Trump is a fascist? I have no doubt he is. His recent Immigration Ban shows how fascist he really is.
Next, expect him to order the registration of all Muslims in the US. When (and it is not if) he does, I am registering on behalf of my Muslim brothers and sisters.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
I wonder how long it took before the German people realize that Hitler was an extremist.
You don't know if you can say Trump is a fascist? I have no doubt he is. His recent Immigration Ban shows how fascist he really is.
Next, expect him to order the registration of all Muslims in the US. When (and it is not if) he does, I am registering on behalf of my Muslim brothers and sisters.
Not necessarily. He may go after other immigrants first.
quote:
The Trump administration is considering a plan to weed out would-be immigrants who are likely to require public assistance, as well as to deport — when possible — immigrants already living in the United States who depend on taxpayer help, according to a draft executive order obtained by The Washington Post.
A second draft order under consideration calls for a substantial shake up in the system through which the United States administers immigrant and nonimmigrant visas overall, with the aim of tightly controlling who enters the country, and who can enter the workforce, and to reduce the social services burden on U.S. taxpayers.
The drafts are circulating among administration officials, and it is unclear whether President Trump has decided to move forward with them or when he might sign them if he does decide to put them in place. The White House would not confirm or deny the authenticity of the orders, and White House officials did not respond to requests for comment about the drafts on Monday and Tuesday.
The big question is whether "taxpayer help" includes public schools or similar public services. I have an ugly suspicion that it will, if this leak is at all accurate.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I spent a bit of time earlier thinking about Martin Niemöller and the origins of this phrase.
One thing which is sometimes forgotten is at the start of the Nazi regimes, he was a fairly enthusiastic supporter and racist - by the end of it, he was "Hitler's personal prisoner". When he wrote the famous lines, he wasn't being twee, he was describing what had happened.
The wikipedia page has this fascinating quote:
quote:
When Pastor Niemöller was put in a concentration camp we wrote the year 1937; when the concentration camp was opened we wrote the year 1933, and the people who were put in the camps then were Communists. Who cared about them? We knew it, it was printed in the newspapers.
Who raised their voice, maybe the Confessing Church? We thought: Communists, those opponents of religion, those enemies of Christians - "should I be my brother's keeper?"
Then they got rid of the sick, the so-called incurables. - I remember a conversation I had with a person who claimed to be a Christian. He said: Perhaps it's right, these incurably sick people just cost the state money, they are just a burden to themselves and to others. Isn't it best for all concerned if they are taken out of the middle [of society]? -- Only then did the church as such take note. Then we started talking, until our voices were again silenced in public. Can we say, we aren't guilty/responsible? The persecution of the Jews, the way we treated the occupied countries, or the things in Greece, in Poland, in Czechoslovakia or in Holland, that were written in the newspapers
I believe, we Confessing-Church-Christians have every reason to say: mea culpa, mea culpa! We can talk ourselves out of it with the excuse that it would have cost me my head if I had spoken out.
Curious that he said that it was the Confessing church which had reason to say mea culpa.
I don't really have anything much else to add to that thought.
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arse
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Humble Servant
Shipmate
# 18391
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
But the real work of resistance and opposition follows--and it requires perseverance. It is slow, tedious work.
And so so important.
sabine
And what is that work? Please spell it out, because I am at a loss at what to do at the moment. The world is crumbling around me and half my colleagues at work are cheering it along. What can I do, other than join the marches, that will help to rebuild the country I grew up in?
Posts: 241 | Registered: Apr 2015
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked — if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in ’43 had come immediately after the ‘German Firm’ stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in ’33. But of course this isn’t the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at Step C? And so on to Step D.
There's truth there, but not quite as my father tells it. He lived in the Tiergarten which is central Berlin from his birth until the end of 1936. He talks of his mother warning the Jews in the building that they should leave the country, that this was different than the old-fashioned antisemitismus that was the accepted cultural style among all Europeans of the day. I don't think my grandmother was especially perceptive about it. In earlier times of my life, I recall his past discussions when travelling the American deep south (he went to grad school in the USA) with all the racial signs for keeping 'Negroes' out.
The current anti-Muslim thing is also quite general, from Swiss not wanting mosques, French not wanting hair coverings, Canadian discussions of Canadian values and the party which lost federal power trying to control Muslim face coverings during the election, and the leadership candidates discussing trumpist types of policies (may they not ever be elected and die out).
My father isn't sleeping well in his alert and active very old age these days, and he praises the opposition to the nonsense. He also is talking of the better media coverage from the 1960s and 70s. With the internet there is so much noise he says, unlike the 1 and then 2 channel TV universe.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
This short video, from Denmark. "All that we share". A reminder.
What we have in common, where ever, whatever, who ever. This week of all weeks. Let them come for the stepparents, the lonely, the gay, the confident, the weirdos, the class clowns....
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Budweiser is a terrible beer. Thin and flavorless. Nevertheless, this advertisement has won them my custom. This ad is going to run in the coveted SuperBowl slot, where it will roll pass many American eyeballs. I love it.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
This short video, from Denmark. "All that we share". A reminder.
What we have in common, where ever, whatever, who ever. This week of all weeks. Let them come for the stepparents, the lonely, the gay, the confident, the weirdos, the class clowns....
Beautiful.
![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Humble Servant
Shipmate
# 18391
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
This short video, from Denmark. "All that we share". A reminder.
What we have in common, where ever, whatever, who ever. This week of all weeks. Let them come for the stepparents, the lonely, the gay, the confident, the weirdos, the class clowns....
Have you read the comments below the video? Really shocking.
Posts: 241 | Registered: Apr 2015
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
There are those who will say wait. But once the jackboots are on the streets and men with guns are rounding up the undesirables, it's too late. You then have a choice between a principled stand, and probable death, or fleeing.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
It's wise, though, to go in with your (gen.) eyes open, to think about the possible consequences of what you're planning to do, and whether you're willing to accept them. People who commit civil disobedience are not necessarily treated better than criminals, and sometimes worse. (Look at videos of the Occupy Oakland protests, from several years ago.) You could be injured. You'll likely have a criminal record. Are you willing to accept those risks?
If not, then find something to do that you're comfortable with. And that's absolutely ok.
FWIW.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Well for me this is all about tactics and what it is that people are trying to achieve. I'm not sure anyone really believes that lots of protests are going to change Trump's direction of travel, it is more about presence and visibily disagreeing with the policy.
Gandhiji said something (I can't find the reference right now, so a paraphrase) about needing to find a weak point when battling against overwhelming odds.
So it isn't just about weighing the personal risk of doing something, it is also about whether that is going to change anything.
For the India independence campaign, the salt march was one of the tipping points. Many were beaten and arrested but this action so undermined the British that they couldn't jail anyone else and realised that they couldn't cage a population which refused to co-operate.
I don't know Trumps weak point, overwhelming jails might be it. Seems unlikely to me, but I'm not there.
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arse
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I think Trump's weak point is his narcissism. He needs to be surrounded by yes-men. This business about "alternative facts" and attacks on negative news stories might not be so much inherently fascistic tendencies as a refusal to accept that the world isn't bowing down to him the way he believes it should be, because he is Right, and he is President, and he is In Charge, and he Knows Best.
How to exploit that? I don't know for certain. Keep up the criticism. Keep up the dissent. Perhaps if he has to face that so many people do not share his vision and think he's completely Upminster it might break his version of reality. I doubt he'd change, but he might give up.
[ 01. February 2017, 07:58: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
How to exploit that? I don't know for certain. Keep up the criticism. Keep up the dissent. Perhaps if he has to face that so many people do not share his vision and think he's completely Upminster it might break his version of reality. I doubt he'd change, but he might give up.
I think it is possible he's going to be undone because he can't resist a good business deal and at some point he is going to do something (if he hasn't already) which the Republican establishment can't look away from and will have to impeach him. The trouble with that thought is that it depends on the Republicans having a conscience and doing the right thing.
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arse
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Budweiser is a terrible beer. Thin and flavorless. Nevertheless, this advertisement has won them my custom. This ad is going to run in the coveted SuperBowl slot, where it will roll pass many American eyeballs. I love it.
Under the ad is a report of Jewish centres being evacuated after bomb threats, and a 70 year old army colonel being arrested protesting the appointment of Sessions.
Is there no balm in Gilead?
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
Please spell it out, because I am at a loss at what to do at the moment. The world is crumbling around me and half my colleagues at work are cheering it along. What can I do, other than join the marches, that will help to rebuild the country I grew up in?
Write to your elected representatives. Let them know that opposing Trump will win them your vote and not opposing Trump will cost them.
Donate to campaign and pressure groups if you have the money.
If you have the time volunteer for political organisations that seek election to oppose Trump.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
Although I think that Trump has at least two fascistic characteristics, narcissism and authoritarianism, and has allied them to racism, ignorance, prejudice against minorities, and corporate interests, I doubt whether the United States will become a fascist state. Indeed, when he ceases to be president civil liberties will be greater than at the height of the New Deal, though they may be less than at the close of the Obama administration. For fascism to emerge democratic institutions need to be weak and discredited, and I don't believe that is the case in the USA. Not only is it unlikely Trump will emerge as a fascist dictator, I doubt whether he can even emerge as strong as Berlusconi, the rich man's Mussolini.
My real fear is less that he will do things that I disagree with, (he's already done that), but that he will do foolish things that are neither in his interests nor anybody elses. I say all these things with the confidence of one who thought he never had a chance of winning the presidency in the first place!
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
For fascism to emerge democratic institutions need to be weak and discredited, and I don't believe that is the case in the USA. Not only is it unlikely Trump will emerge as a fascist dictator, I doubt whether he can even emerge as strong as Berlusconi, the rich man's Mussolini.
I hope for everyone's sakes that you are right but fear that you are not. If he is able to get his pick for the SCOTUS in place then the usual check-and-balances are going to be screwed. If the republicans give him enough rope he's going to have the latitude to do whatever he wants.
It's entirely possible his end goal is not a fascist state. But this seems like a reckless way to find out.
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arse
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The trouble with that thought is that it depends on the Republicans having a conscience and doing the right thing.
Hah!
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
Please spell it out, because I am at a loss at what to do at the moment. The world is crumbling around me and half my colleagues at work are cheering it along. What can I do, other than join the marches, that will help to rebuild the country I grew up in?
Write to your elected representatives. Let them know that opposing Trump will win them your vote and not opposing Trump will cost them.
I was startled to learn that, when it comes to congresspersons receiving phone calls, they usually get 4 calls from Republican constituents for every one they get from a Democrat. So yes, phone. Find out the name of your Congressperson, and the two senators in your state. They'll have a local office in your area, in addition to their office in Washington DC. Set up a list of those numbers, and a routine for yourself -- phone one of those numbers every single day. Alas and alack, there'll be something, probably something new, for you to discuss every phone call.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
Please spell it out, because I am at a loss at what to do at the moment. The world is crumbling around me and half my colleagues at work are cheering it along. What can I do, other than join the marches, that will help to rebuild the country I grew up in?
Write to your elected representatives. Let them know that opposing Trump will win them your vote and not opposing Trump will cost them.
Donate to campaign and pressure groups if you have the money.
If you have the time volunteer for political organisations that seek election to oppose Trump.
If you're able, showing up at an in-person town-hall event is even better than a phone call. Here is a (partial) list of various Congresscritters and their scheduled public appearances of that nature. Note that a lot of these events are handled by staffers rather than the legislators themselves.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
But the real work of resistance and opposition follows--and it requires perseverance. It is slow, tedious work.
And so so important.
sabine
And what is that work? Please spell it out, because I am at a loss at what to do at the moment. The world is crumbling around me and half my colleagues at work are cheering it along. What can I do, other than join the marches, that will help to rebuild the country I grew up in?
You are not alone. It can feel quite overwhelming. Not sure "the country you grew up in" refers to the US, but if it does and you still live here. . . .
Refugee resettlement agencies are in most major cities (Catholic Charities, Church World Service, Episcopal Migration Ministries, Lutheran Immigration, International Rescue Committee run many of them, so go to those web sites to find the names of agencies they run in your area).
Some local folks are organized around helping people get registered to vote (not too early for the next round of elections).
Anything that helps people with health care--volunteer with or donate to a local low-income clinic.
Call your representative--Senator, Congressperson, state legislator, etc. Word on the street is that phone calls are much better than emails and letters. It doesn't hurt to have your thoughts in front of you on paper when you call.
Think about local issues that cause people to be disaffected and prone to being swayed by the likes of Trump. In my city, really bad public transportation is an important issue, and a group representing local congregations worked (with others) to bring it to a referendum.
This is not an exhaustive list. This is just what quickly came to mind.
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
It probably doesn't compare, because nothing really compares with anything.
The October Crisis of 1970 was the culmination of FLQ (Front de libération de Québec) terrorism, which started about 1963. In Oct 1970 the terror was enough that the federal gov't proclaimed a state of "apprehended insurrection" under the War Measures Act. Tanks and soldiers in the streets of some of our cities. Arrests without warrant or habeas corpus. We were all aghast and frightened. And then it passed.
This will also pass. And we'll get back to the real challenges of this age: ecological collapse, climate change, obesity, starvation, global economic justice etc.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Pangolin Guerre
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# 18686
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Posted
This is terribly cynical of me, and I'm slightly uncomfortable having even thought it, but I can't help wondering whether the Anhaueser-Busch commercial, while inspirational, is a very sly attack on the Coors family, especially with the "Huck and Jim" shot on the river, with all its resonances.
On to a more important point... Consistently on this discussion thread, either explicitly or assumed, is that the Nazis were "the gold standard" of fascism. There were as many varieties of fascism as there were national movements, some more brutal than others. Antisemitism was common to them, but the approach to the Jews varied greatly from country to country, and it's with the Holocaust underway, and German pressure on other national movements to comply, that there was an increasingly uniform attitude to, and treatment of, the Jews. To use the Hungarian example, the Horthy regime was antisemitic, but its antisemitism, and level of popular organisation, was far exceeded by Szalasi and the Arrow Cross. Or, was Franco a fascist? A totalitarian or authoritarian? Yes, no, and maybe, depending what you're discussing, and in what period over 1936-75.
This says nothing of the nature and organisation of national movements, the national economic programmes, etc., but I think that point that a more nuanced approach to the nature of fascism should be employed here. Trump is not a Nazi, but he might be something else. A leader of a conservative movement in revolt, perhaps. And revolutions, especially under pressure, have a tendency to radicalise.
Lastly, as to opposition to authoritarianism.... Rosenstrasse.
Posts: 758 | From: 30 arpents de neige | Registered: Nov 2016
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Freddy
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# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
What I am saying by stirring this up, is that it is very difficult to achieve consensus on so many issues, so that when you talk in general about "creeping fascism" you need to identify exactly what your issues are, and why you see them as creeping fascism. And try to avoid only seeing danger from the totalitarian Right.
Thanks for that comment.
Plenty of people see totalitarianism as coming from the liberal side of the spectrum - labeling traditional values as "hate speech" and criminalizing them as bigotry in disguise.
I did not vote for Trump, but many people supported him while holding their nose because of their greater concern for the politically correct fascism that Hillary represented.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
What I am saying by stirring this up, is that it is very difficult to achieve consensus on so many issues, so that when you talk in general about "creeping fascism" you need to identify exactly what your issues are, and why you see them as creeping fascism. And try to avoid only seeing danger from the totalitarian Right.
Thanks for that comment.
Plenty of people see totalitarianism as coming from the liberal side of the spectrum - labeling traditional values as "hate speech" and criminalizing them as bigotry in disguise.
I did not vote for Trump, but many people supported him while holding their nose because of their greater concern for the politically correct fascism that Hillary represented.
Smoking crack before posting isn't recommend.
There are reasons not to like Clinton, but fascism insnt one of them. The political correctness you despise is merely affording people other than straight white males a modicum of respect.
But do not worry, Trump and his republicunt advisors are busy making sure that doesn't happen.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Golden Key
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# 1468
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Posted
lilBuddha--
Do you realize that your post above both defends women's rights *and* uses the C-word as an insult?
FWIW.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Crœsos
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# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Plenty of people see totalitarianism as coming from the liberal side of the spectrum - labeling traditional values as "hate speech" and criminalizing them as bigotry in disguise.
I did not vote for Trump, but many people supported him while holding their nose because of their greater concern for the politically correct fascism that Hillary represented.
As a matter of clarification, the First Amendment prevents the U.S. from having any actual hate speech* laws. What Freddy (or an anonymous "plenty of people") is complaining about are the appalled looks they get these days when they call someone 'nigger' or 'fag' to their face in public. There's no criminal punishment that could be attached to such actions (absent some kind of material threat) under U.S. law, but they consider it a major infringement of their rights (i.e. "politically correct fascism") to suffer any kind of social opprobrium for using various slurs.
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*People often confuse "hate speech" with "hate crimes". The former is expressing "traditional" (as Freddy puts it) opinions about various minority groups, usually in the form of insults or slurs. This kind of activity is fully protected under the First Amendment, though such protection doesn't protect one from the negative opinion of other private citizens, which seems to be Freddy's main point of complaint. A hate crime, on the other hand, is an ordinary crime motivated by animus against the victims race or religion or (in some jurisdictions) sexual orientation or gender identity. (e.g. James Byrd.) Usually the legal system considers this an aggravating factor in sentencing what is already criminal behavior.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
lilBuddha--
Do you realize that your post above both defends women's rights *and* uses the C-word as an insult?
FWIW.
Yes. I have a love/hate relationship with using cunt as an insult. The hate is that it demeans women. It makes men angry to be called that, which gives it a sort of power that I kind of love.
Next time a man asks you to do something, reply "Yes, Ma'am". Drives them mental.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Freddy
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# 365
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Posted
Good posts! They well illustrate the vehemence of the debate.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
lilBuddha--
Do you realize that your post above both defends women's rights *and* uses the C-word as an insult?
FWIW.
Yes. I have a love/hate relationship with using cunt as an insult. The hate is that it demeans women. It makes men angry to be called that, which gives it a sort of power that I kind of love.
Next time a man asks you to do something, reply "Yes, Ma'am". Drives them mental.
You could always indicate you would refer to someone as a cunt, but they lack both the warmth and the depth.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Jay-Emm
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# 11411
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Posted
Also the one is f*d for the benefit of future generations.
whereas future generations are f*d for the benefit of the other.
(I can't think a good phrasing with the c's playing a more active role)
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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