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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Trump Prays for the Dead
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
In his comments announcing his strike against Syria's ability to use chemical weapons, Pres. Trump prayed for the souls of those who have died in the Syrian conflict:
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/04/trump-syria-precedent-blesses-world-236977
“Tonight I call on all civilized nations to join us in seeking to end the slaughter and bloodshed in Syria and also to end terrorism of all kinds and all types,” Trump said. “We ask for God's wisdom as we face the challenge of our very troubled world. We pray for the lives of the wounded and for the souls of those who have passed, and we hope that as long as America stands for justice, then peace and harmony will in the end prevail.”
Trump was raised Presbyterian and still calls himself Presbyterian, but mostly has displayed little interest in regular church attendance or the particulars of Christian theology or morality. This prayer for the dead was likely inserted by his speechwriter, who might be from a religious tradition that prays for the dead or may not be particularly religious or knowledgeable about religion. Still, given the strong support shown Trump by many (but certainly not all) conservative Evangelical Protestants who strongly object to prayers for the dead, this strikes me as an interesting development.
Does anyone who has some knowledge of the history of Presidents' speeches know if any president has ever publicly prayed for the souls of the departed aside, perhaps, for JFK, who was Roman Catholic (or perhaps a modern-era Episcopalian president like Ford or FDR)?
More importantly, does this prayer coming from Trump and/or his speechwriter reflect a new willingness to pray for the souls of the dead among those who are "spiritual but not religious" or among those who are loosely affiliated as Christian (and do not consider themselves C/catholic or Orthodox) - and among those, especially the young, who perhaps know little about historical controversies about the appropriateness of praying for the dead?
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Manufactured consent for his actions.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Pres. Trump lacks theological nuance and awareness of his own religious tradition? Quelle surprise.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I recall sitting in on a theology paper at the Learneds some years ago where the young academic posited that the traditional Protestant campaign against prayers for the dead was greatly weakened by the aftermath of World War I. Her paper (which I have been trying to find on the net but without any luck-- I was distracted by a youtube of a Merv Griffin interview with Nina Hagen and Don Rickles, which only goes to show how shallow I have become) contained a table to sermons published in Ontario newspapers on the topic. IIRC sermons against prayers for the dead became extremely rare as the impact of the war losses made itself felt. Sermons tended to focus more on the problems posed by spiritualist activities as the bereaved searched for comforting messages.
*tangent alert* My cynical self suggests that future scholars trying to learn about 21st century religion by reviewing our newspapers for published sermons may be out of luck.
There are suggestions that Mr Trump was greatly influenced by Norman Vincent Peale, more than he might have been by his Lutheran and Presbyterian upbringing. I suspect that, outside Orthodox Presbyterian (nothing to do with Antioch) and scholarly Lutheran settings, prayers for the dead is no longer a topic which much features in US Protestantism.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Either another distraction and heart-string grabbing ploy, like those which got him to power. Or, and infinitely more alarming, When Love of peace becomes very loud, war is imminent D. H. Lawrence.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
He had just finished reading "Two Corinthians".
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Stonespring, if these two extracts are genuine reportage of his words:-
quote:
"I have great relationship with God." … "I like to be good. I don't like to have to ask for forgiveness. And I am good. I don't do a lot of things that are bad. I try to do nothing that is bad.”
that should answer your question.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Stonespring, if these two extracts are genuine reportage of his words:-
quote:
"I have great relationship with God." … "I like to be good. I don't like to have to ask for forgiveness. And I am good. I don't do a lot of things that are bad. I try to do nothing that is bad.”
that should answer your question.
If that quote was followed with "and now can I have a biscuit, mummy" and a pic of a 5 year old, it would not be so bad.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Violence is really the only way to solve the world's problems isn't it? trumpy has absorbed the child's version of Christianity at least culturally, where God smiles on winners and doesn't love peace except after bleeding, suffering and death. Which is a main reason that the sacrificial and atonement theology of as emphasized by mainstream American protestantism is so offensive: it requires the violence of war and eventual triumph, but only after suffering, killing, death.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
So, what about the living Syrian babies - will he give them asylum now due to his new found compassion?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
So, what about the living Syrian babies - will he give them asylum now due to his new found compassion?
News Item US withdraws support of UN population fund. That was about 1/2 of the fund's income.
This fund supports a natal center in a Syrian Refugee camp that helped go give birth to 6,000 children.
Does that say anything about Trump's compassion for living children?
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
In his comments announcing his strike against Syria's ability to use chemical weapons, Pres. Trump prayed for the souls of those who have died in the Syrian conflict:
I can't speak with much knowledge of the speeches of previous presidents, but whenever donald fart speaks coherently, I think we know that the words are someone else's. It's very difficult to believe that he wrote that speech or understood what he was saying.
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
There are suggestions that Mr Trump was greatly influenced by Norman Vincent Peale, more than he might have been by his Lutheran and Presbyterian upbringing. I suspect that, outside Orthodox Presbyterian (nothing to do with Antioch) and scholarly Lutheran settings, prayers for the dead is no longer a topic which much features in US Protestantism.
This thread should have been titled "Presidential Prayers for the Dead" because I and everyone else knows that Trump does not spend much time thinking about theology, but I find the topic of how the appropriateness of an American president praying for the dead in a public speech may have changed over time interesting.
As for Norman Vincent Peale, Trump was influenced by him during the time that he spent as a (younger) adult attending Marble Collegiate Church in Manhattan, which is a church that comes from the historical Dutch Reformed churches in the US, which themselves are presbyterian in polity. Trump's childhood congregation in Queens was affiliated with one of the predecessor churches of the Presbyterian Church USA, and is now a very diverse congregation full of immigrants (insert obligatory ironical comment here).
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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JeffTL
Apprentice
# 16722
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Posted
When Trump goes to church it's usually an Episcopal parish near Mar-A-Lago. Under the 1979 Prayer Book, prayers for the dead are specified in the rubric and included in all of the prepared forms for the Prayers of the People at the Eucharist. In this matter, he has likely been formed by the church that he attends rather than the denomination with which he identifies.
Posts: 49 | From: Chicago | Registered: Oct 2011
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
... This prayer for the dead was likely inserted by his speechwriter, who might be from a religious tradition that prays for the dead or may not be particularly religious or knowledgeable about religion. Still, given the strong support shown Trump by many (but certainly not all) conservative Evangelical Protestants who strongly object to prayers for the dead, this strikes me as an interesting development....
The prayers of other presidents may be worthy of discussion, but Trump's prayers are worthless. As you say, they were inserted by a speechwriter, and it was clearly an incompetent speechwriter. The pentehostafundagelicals will shrug it off, as they have shrugged off all of the PGiC's irreligious behaviour. They won't get as far as the theological implications. Trump is (now) anti-abortion, and that is the only religious principle they care about.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
Two Corinthians went into a pub...
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Pardon me if this is more Hellish than Purgatorial, but if God listen's to the Tangerine Fool's prayers, then he's not half the God I thought he was.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
As so often, the prayers are not for the ears of God, but for the people.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Will he also pray for the souls of those Coptic Christians killed in today's bomb outrages in Egypt?
(One of the dead was, it seems, a policeman trying to prevent the suicide bomber from detonating himself. The irony being, of course, that the brave copper may well have been a Muslim).
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Seem to remember the two B's invoking the Name of the Almighty when stomping into a sovereign Country in the belief grateful locals would shower them with flower petals.
'Please god can you get rid of these troublesome oil-rich tinpot Dictators who we have been plying with arms for decades'
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
Just to be pedantic, Trump didn't actually pray for the souls of those killed, or for anyone else. He made a declarative statement in a speech to the public that among other things "we"—"all civilized nations," apparently—do, we ask, we pray and we hope.
Whether he's actually doing what he said "we" do is anyone's guess. I have my suspicions that his idea of praying is talking to himself.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JeffTL:
When Trump goes to church it's usually an Episcopal parish near Mar-A-Lago. Under the 1979 Prayer Book, prayers for the dead are specified in the rubric and included in all of the prepared forms for the Prayers of the People at the Eucharist. In this matter, he has likely been formed by the church that he attends rather than the denomination with which he identifies.
He can't be an Episcopalian, because if he was, he would know that he does not have authority to bless anybody except his own children.
[ 09. April 2017, 17:36: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by JeffTL:
When Trump goes to church it's usually an Episcopal parish near Mar-A-Lago. Under the 1979 Prayer Book, prayers for the dead are specified in the rubric and included in all of the prepared forms for the Prayers of the People at the Eucharist. In this matter, he has likely been formed by the church that he attends rather than the denomination with which he identifies.
He can't be an Episcopalian, because if he was, he would know that he does not have authority to bless anybody except his own children.
We know that he states that he is a Presbyterian, presumably still affiliated with Marble Collegiate Church, which is linked with the Reformed Church in America. While he has attended Episcopalian churches and press reports suggest that he has taken the Sacrament there, even by the sometimes-flexible standards of TEC, I don't think that we would class him as Episcopalian nor is it clear to me that his theology is much formed by the 1979 book. One of his few extended statements on the topic would substantiate that.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Basically, Trump was simply saying "rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb" and saying it in a way to make him look thoughtful and caring, and at the same time saying nothing - certainly nothing of any theological interest.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by JeffTL:
When Trump goes to church it's usually an Episcopal parish near Mar-A-Lago. Under the 1979 Prayer Book, prayers for the dead are specified in the rubric and included in all of the prepared forms for the Prayers of the People at the Eucharist. In this matter, he has likely been formed by the church that he attends rather than the denomination with which he identifies.
He can't be an Episcopalian, because if he was, he would know that he does not have authority to bless anybody except his own children.
So an Episcopalian can't bless someone who has helped him (unless that person is his or her own child). Can one bless foster children and/or step children? Do other Christian denominations also limit who can bless whom?
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I suspect the only theology* T might be able to grasp is what you'd teach a 3- or 4-year-old. (E.g., "God loves everyone, we should be kind".) But, given all his damage, I doubt he could grasp that much.
*I don't think that knowing formal (or any) theology is a mark of being a good, wise, or smart person.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
He can't be an Episcopalian, because if he was, he would know that he does not have authority to bless anybody except his own children.
So an Episcopalian can't bless someone who has helped him (unless that person is his or her own child). Can one bless foster children and/or step children? Do other Christian denominations also limit who can bless whom?
Seems bizarre to me. Haven't heard of that limitation for any other denom--or other religion, for that matter. Catholics can even do things like emergency baptism, which must be/include a form of blessing. ISTM that anyone can bless anyone.
Now, if there's some Episcopalian blessing ritual that only clergy and parents are *allowed* to pronounce...well, to me, that seems pretty weird. Maybe the prayer book (of whatever time and place) has a specific blessing prayer that parents can use with their families? But I can't see any good sense in ruling that's the only one they can use.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
AIUI, in the churches of the Anglican communion, Aaron's Blessing and some others may only be said by clergy. But anyone may properly say "God bless you" etc.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
I think Piskies can say "God bless you" on most occasions. In a service, however, as I understand it, only a priest can stand before the congregation and make the sign of the cross toward the congregation and say something like "May the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit bless you and remain with you always". I've heard an alternative blessing form for non-Eucharistic services conducted by laity would be "May the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit bless us and remain with us always" said while the speaker crosses themselves.
An emergency baptism is a different kind of occasion as I understand it.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re emergency baptism:
I just meant that as an example of lay people being authorized to do things someone might think were limited to clergy.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
More importantly, does this prayer coming from Trump and/or his speechwriter reflect a new willingness to pray for the souls of the dead among those who are "spiritual but not religious"
No. It's just a demonstration of how Trump is very much of his era (a certain type of retired man who watches a lot of TV) and is influenced to emotion by certain moving images - usually the latest ones he has seen (see also his talk of 'the beautiful children').
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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