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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: resurrection bodies
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
This is going to be one of those unanswerable questions, but I'd be interested to read your thoughts.
On Sunday, Christ was seen wandering in the garden and at least one report suggests that he was so ordinary looking as to be mistaken for someone else. We also read that angels were wearing their sparkly shiny suits - and that these were presumably different to the clothing that the Lord was wearing.
We also know that the resurrection body had some kind of solidity (to the extent that it could be used for making breakfast) whilst looking like the body which was crucified. It also sounds like that body could be touched by other humans and feel solid.
So my question is about whether Christ's resurrection body has any connection to the resurrection body we have hope in having in heaven. Did his look "ordinary" because of the need for the disciples and faithful to be able to see it was him, whereas the heavenly resurrection bodies we will have will be new-and-improved versions of the ones we have?
Is it that Christ's body was necessarily a "zombie" to show his power over death, whereas our hope is in a new, healed, fully functioning body? If not, it is a bit of a disturbing idea that our physical faults, illnesses and scars will come with us into heaven.
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arse
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Jolly Jape
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# 3296
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Posted
I think the traditional view is that, whilst we will have bodies which are "perfected" in some way, whilst being still recognisable as our own, Christ alone will be "known by the scars", "those wounds, yet visible above, in beauty glorified", as the hymnwriter put it.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Yes, I think you have it in one there JollyJape.
Were this not the case the distress of believing in a Heavenly reunion, having lost a loved one under horribly disfiguring circumstances, would be too much to bear and by no means a comfort.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
We also know that the resurrection body had some kind of solidity (to the extent that it could be used for making breakfast) whilst looking like the body which was crucified. It also sounds like that body could be touched by other humans and feel solid.
I'm not sure that's a safe assumption to make, given how some of Jesus' close associates had trouble recognizing Him after His resurrection.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
It was apparently sufficiently similar that they did in fact recognize him after a bit (rather than saying, "I'm sorry, sir, but I really don't think we've met.").
There probably was something weird going on, but at least a part of the non-initial-recognition can be put down to not expecting to see a dead man alive again.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
H'mmm, yes. Don't think even I would have to use the face-blindness excuse in a situation like that.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
One of the theories I heard for the lack of initial recognition that I think has some plausibility, though which I find less than wholly convincing, is that the meetings happened early in the morning and therefore there was a low sun. If Jesus were standing between the rising sun and those he was talking to, his face would've been in shadow with a bright background behind him.
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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Eirenist
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# 13343
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Posted
One may hope that a resurrection body (not necessarily the same as a resurrected body) would be perfectly adapted to its environment, have means of perception and communication, and the ability to establish its identity. Further speculation is pointless and probably undesirable.
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I was thinking about Jesus's resurrection body over Easter, and this occurred to me. It's speculation, not doctrine. If you know I am wrong or heretical, feel free to say so, provided you explain why. A simple assertion 'you're wrong' won't do.
During his life on earth up until the crucifixion, Jesus's body was in the earthly realm. He was the Son of God incarnate. His body was an ordinary human body like ours. It had the same properties as we do.
When he was raised from the dead, his body became present in two different worlds, the earthly realm - after all, the tomb was empty, he had not left that body behind - and simultaneously in the heavenly realm. So it retained all its human properties that went with its human nature, its earthly physicality, but acquired a whole lot of new qualities that belong to its heavenly nature, its heavenly physicality.
That is the body that ascended. It is part of what we mean when we say God was in Christ reconciling humankind to himself.
If Jesus's resurrection body was just a sort of zombie, he would have left it behind.
I can't though give and answer to Mr Cheesy's question about what our own resurrection bodies will be like. I hope they are like Jesus's.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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HCH
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# 14313
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Posted
One can ask similar questions about Moses and Elijah as seen in the transfiguration.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
One explanation of why Jesus wasn't recognized is that everyone was convinced he was dead. People literally didn't believe their eyes.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
The second person of the pre-eternal, trans-infinite Godhead is not limited to even a transcendent physical form 'in heaven'. Is not 'in heaven'.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
The second person of the pre-eternal, trans-infinite Godhead is not limited to even a transcendent physical form 'in heaven'. Is not 'in heaven'.
Of course, "in heaven" need not mean"located in a specific place called 'heaven.'" It can be an attempt using human language to describe what human language is ultimately incapable of describing.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
One explanation of why Jesus wasn't recognized is that everyone was convinced he was dead. People literally didn't believe their eyes.
Possible, but don't people who suffer recent traumatic loss of a dear friend often see the dead person in dreams or even while they are awake? Thinking of when a schoolmate died, and many people reported having vivid dreams about him appearing to be alive, or forgetting that he was gone and thinking that he saw him, and the overwhelming sadness when the dream or moment of forgetfulness ended.
(I'm not saying that the resurrection was just community-wide PTSD, but rather that the simple "he was dead, why would they think he was talking to them?" explanation doesn't hold true in my experience.)
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og King of Bashan
Possible, but don't people who suffer recent traumatic loss of a dear friend often see the dead person in dreams or even while they are awake?
Yes, I had that experience quite a few times during the weeks after my husband died. I'm talking about something different.
If I believe a friend of mine is out of town, I may fail to recognize him if he has returned unexpectedly. My brain refuses to register what I'm seeing.
When I saw my husband after his death, my brain registered something, I'm not sure what.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Pangolin Guerre
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# 18686
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Posted
I had never much bothered about the ontology of the resurrected body of Jesus... until this thread. I rather like Enoch's take, at least as a launch point. I'm going to think on that for a bit. Very suggestive, there, Enoch. Thank you.
Posts: 758 | From: 30 arpents de neige | Registered: Nov 2016
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
One explanation of why Jesus wasn't recognized is that everyone was convinced he was dead. People literally didn't believe their eyes.
Possible, but don't people who suffer recent traumatic loss of a dear friend often see the dead person in dreams or even while they are awake? Thinking of when a schoolmate died, and many people reported having vivid dreams about him appearing to be alive, or forgetting that he was gone and thinking that he saw him, and the overwhelming sadness when the dream or moment of forgetfulness ended.
(I'm not saying that the resurrection was just community-wide PTSD, but rather that the simple "he was dead, why would they think he was talking to them?" explanation doesn't hold true in my experience.)
The key words in your post are "forgetting that he was gone" and "forgetfulness." Dreams are kind to us by taking away the cruel knowledge of death, which is precisely why we are not surprised to see our friends alive in them. But waking we know the person is dead--we ache with it, it is always with us on some level, even when we are trying to concentrate on something else as strongly as we can--and so seeing Christ alive again under those circs is by no means the same thing. About the only way it could be similar IMHO is if enough time had passed (like, years) that I were reconciled to the person's death, and it no longer hurt so much and constantly intruded into my consciousness. Then indeed I might easily recognize a resurrected friend without any trouble--well, until my brain caught up!
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
I had never much bothered about the ontology of the resurrected body of Jesus... until this thread. I rather like Enoch's take, at least as a launch point. I'm going to think on that for a bit. Very suggestive, there, Enoch. Thank you.
Pleased to be of service.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
One can ask similar questions about Moses and Elijah as seen in the transfiguration.
One can if one chooses to be literal about a symbolic vision.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
For Earthlings God the Son wears a Jesus body, mask, persona, person, chromatophore.
There being more questions than answers, in xenobiologies where there are no fathers and, or no sons, what are the first and second persons of the Godhead?
[ 19. April 2017, 10:50: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
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Sparrow
Shipmate
# 2458
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Posted
I've always wondered whether our heavenly body will look the same to everyone? For example, when I remember my mother I think of her as probably I remember her most fondly, when she was in her 50s and very active but with a lined face and grey hair. But my father (now also dead) would probably remember her best as the young woman he married.
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For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
It was apparently sufficiently similar that they did in fact recognize him after a bit (rather than saying, "I'm sorry, sir, but I really don't think we've met.").
There probably was something weird going on, but at least a part of the non-initial-recognition can be put down to not expecting to see a dead man alive again.
This. Entirely.
I also think it was really a case of 'not looking therefore not seeing'.
My wife will, of course, tell me off for not finding things when I've spent half an hour looking when she could see it all along.
Most men will know the feeling of stupidity that we get when it's under our noses all the time.
If you were Mary in the garden would you see Jesus? Don't forget it did only take 5 seconds to realise who he was as soon as he opened his mouth...
I do think it's a huge assumption that Jesus looked 'ordinary'. I don't think he would have looked ordinary in the slightest. Notice, for example that poor Thomas didn't believe even when he saw Jesus, he had to specifically look at the wounds.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
The way I would describe the resurrection body is that mine will be 'me'.
It will be different or course, fitted to another realm of existence, but it will not be less than me, i.e. I shan't be a spirit flitting from cloud to cloud.
It will be 'me' and the 'me' that I and others recognise as 'me' possesses (or 'is') body, soul and spirit.
Why would my rising to life eternal (which is quality and not just quantity) be less than it is now?
My definition of the resurrection of the body therefore is that after the resurrection I will be me, a whole person - and nothing like those pesky Greeks with their shuffling off 'this mortal coil' would have us believe..
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
We used to have a vicar who preached really well on the *physicality of of Jesus' Resurrection. He always reckoned that invisible spirits floating off into a vague nothingness did quite cut it.
* meaning He had a physical body and wasn't just a semi visible apparition.
Those who believe in reincarnation are also holding to a physical persistence or existence, even if it's only in the form of a tiny bug and not a blue whale. I suppose this throws up just as many questions as the Christian Resurrection.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I do think it's a huge assumption that Jesus looked 'ordinary'. I don't think he would have looked ordinary in the slightest. Notice, for example that poor Thomas didn't believe even when he saw Jesus, he had to specifically look at the wounds.
Thomas actually did believe right away ("My Lord and my God!") and it was Jesus himself who followed up with the "Stick your finger in the holes" talk, by that point Thomas appears to have been entirely willing to brush that stuff aside and pretend he never said anything so obnoxious. But I think you're on to something with Jesus' voice. I must say that voice is the primary way I recognize people even now due to faceblindness. And I doubt that voice changed in the slightest--or the things it said...
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I do think it's a huge assumption that Jesus looked 'ordinary'. I don't think he would have looked ordinary in the slightest. Notice, for example that poor Thomas didn't believe even when he saw Jesus, he had to specifically look at the wounds.
Thomas actually did believe right away ("My Lord and my God!") and it was Jesus himself who followed up with the "Stick your finger in the holes" talk, by that point Thomas appears to have been entirely willing to brush that stuff aside and pretend he never said anything so obnoxious. But I think you're on to something with Jesus' voice. I must say that voice is the primary way I recognize people even now due to faceblindness. And I doubt that voice changed in the slightest--or the things it said...
Not trying to labour the point or even trying to disagree, but it was after Jesus spoke and gave the invitation to touch that Thomas made his profession of recognition and faith.
It was the voice again speaking, I think, that did it.
I'm not sure that Thomas actually felt it necessary after all to stick his finger into the wounds.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
If you were Mary in the garden would you see Jesus? Don't forget it did only take 5 seconds to realise who he was as soon as he opened his mouth...
More accurately, I think, she recognized him immediately when he called her by name.
If I recall correctly, there are only three instances in the Gospels where the resurrected Jesus is not recognized immediately. One instance is in Luke (the road to Emmaus) and two are in John. In the other recorded appearances of the resurrected Jesus, he is immediately recognized.
Of the two instances in John, one is the episode of Mary in the garden, when she recognizes Jesus when he calls her by name. The other is the episode of the disciples fishing, and Jesus calls to them from the shore. Perhaps they don't recognize him because of distance. In any event, the beloved disciple recognizes Jesus after they follow Jesus's advice and pull in all the fish.
In Luke's story, the two from the road to Emmaus recognize Jesus when he breaks bread.
So, in those instances where Jesus isn't recognized at first, we have disciples recognizing him when:
— He breaks bread;
— He calls one by her name; or
— They act on his instruction.
Seems to me that wondering why they didn't recognize him at first isn't really the point we're supposed to pick up on. I take it as Jesus choosing to reveal himself through specific aspects of the encounters.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
There's an old guy lives across the street who walks to his gate to let the dog out for a pee. We've chatted, partied at the curate's, I know his name (but not the boxer bitch's!).
I saw an old guy three streets away on a mobility scooter being led by a boxer bitch. I was sure I knew him ...
As Moo said, He was dead, and as a very plain looking, not even ugly, ugly-handsome, handsome; bearded, nondescript Jew (who could disappear in a mob bent on killing Him) you wouldn't bother looking at intently, you'd pre-consciously dismiss Him as Jesus. Being in a darkened cave or with a headscarf on the road wouldn't help either.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I had often thought that this is probably some combination of projection of hopefulness, cultural expectations, pious and enthusiastic belief.
I can hear in my mind the voices of various people who are dead, some of them 50 years ago. I realize that people want to have tangible bodies as part of this. But isn't this a wish?
What happened to the people who got raised to life in Matthew 27:52? I thought this was not literal, nor the additional bits to follow, but a statement to show us how impressive Jesus is, i.e., it would be way cool if it did happen, and look how impressive our Jesus is!
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
We used to have a vicar who preached really well on the *physicality of of Jesus' Resurrection. He always reckoned that invisible spirits floating off into a vague nothingness did quite cut it.
* meaning He had a physical body and wasn't just a semi visible apparition.
Those who believe in reincarnation are also holding to a physical persistence or existence, even if it's only in the form of a tiny bug and not a blue whale. I suppose this throws up just as many questions as the Christian Resurrection.
But what exactly do we mean when we refer to "physical and material" in light of the immortal, risen life? Our conception of material takes for granted the fact of death, i.e. we eat food which makes our material bodies, but the reason we eat food is that we need it to live. Our physical existence is premised on our mortality.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Not necessarily. Or maybe I should say "Now it is, but it doesn't have to be so."
There are other material things that manage to get along just fine without eating, defecating, or dying. Perhaps some day we'll do the same?
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Not necessarily. Or maybe I should say "Now it is, but it doesn't have to be so."
There are other material things that manage to get along just fine without eating, defecating, or dying. Perhaps some day we'll do the same?
Mmm, yeeess, but...
There are indeed material things which answer to that description, but, off the top of my head, they are all inanimate. And they're not eternal - they're in a constant in a state of change, even if a bit slow to be perceptible to humans (i.e.: rocks).
I am not sure that I can hope for an incorruptible world, where change, and decay, (and by definition, growth) isn't possible. Too much of the good I see around me (both material and social) has been brought about by painful and/or lethal upheaval.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Are we talking about pesky pagan Greeks or pesky Christian ones, Mudfrog?
The Orthodox are probably a lot more 'physical' in their understanding of these things than many evangelical Protestants - embarrassingly so with their relics and so on.
Arguably, on one level Christianity is a fusion of Hebrew and Hellenistic elements so it's another if these both/and not either/or things.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
My problem is that I cannot begin to imagine anything more real than this. Net curtains, glass, coins, scissors, pens; metal, plastic and wooden rulers, electro-magnetic technology ... the startling thing is that everything in my purview at the moment is human made except my forearms and the night and a cedar cone ... even so, I cannot imagine anything orthogonal to it, in a room next door where the physics and biology is within a transcendent reality.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Not necessarily. Or maybe I should say "Now it is, but it doesn't have to be so."
There are other material things that manage to get along just fine without eating, defecating, or dying. Perhaps some day we'll do the same?
Mmm, yeeess, but...
There are indeed material things which answer to that description, but, off the top of my head, they are all inanimate. And they're not eternal - they're in a constant in a state of change, even if a bit slow to be perceptible to humans (i.e.: rocks).
I am not sure that I can hope for an incorruptible world, where change, and decay, (and by definition, growth) isn't possible. Too much of the good I see around me (both material and social) has been brought about by painful and/or lethal upheaval.
I'm not so sure there isn't change in heaven. I suspect there is--growth is a good thing, in itself, and I'm not at all sure you couldn't have infinite growth (thinking here of the merely physical infinite expanding universe models). Couldn't there be something analogous for all of reality? If the Creator wanted it so, I mean.
The problem with infinite growth now is that it runs into limits or boundaries that cause pain and destruction. But I think it would be possible to have planned, creative growth and even rhythmic change that would not lead to evil consequences. All that's assuming infinite wisdom and supply, of course. I couldn't plan it myself. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
As far as rhythmic change, I'm thinking of the holidays and festivals of the year as a tiny analogy--that, or the movements of a great dance. Or in music--you can ring changes on what is basically at bottom the same sequence, but the changes and elaborations and etc. make it new.
Just my rambling.
ETA: it's weird, but I never realized before today that I don't think of heaven/the Kingdom/whatever as in any way static. It's hard to imagine Jesus static.
[ 21. April 2017, 01:57: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
There is a spectrum, like many issues, on the nature of our final destiny (resurrection body).
On one extreme is something that I believe Rosemary Ruether once described as, that we simply exist as memories within the divine mind. When we die, that's it, physically we are gone forever, but we "exist" in so far as God remembers us.
On the other extreme is something that I heard televangelist John Hagee describe in one of his sermons, that we would get perfect, Hollywood physical bodies and everyone would be a perfect 10. I believe one could argue that this theology could be summed up as "Why lose weight, just wait until the bodily resurrection."
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
On the other extreme is something that I heard televangelist John Hagee describe in one of his sermons, that we would get perfect, Hollywood physical bodies and everyone would be a perfect 10. I believe one could argue that this theology could be summed up as "Why lose weight, just wait until the bodily resurrection."
Calling John Hagee's preaching "theology" is certainly most generous of you. Though in fairness, given your summary, he could certainly be said to practice what he preaches.
The issue often seems to hinge around how one understands the phrase soma pneumatikon in 1 Corinthians 15. Interpreting it as "spiritual body" kind of ignores the actual soma, the body. Instead it is often expressed as some kind of disembodied existence, in pure spirit form.
But soma, as far as I know, never means anything less than some with a bit physical bulk to it; something that you can see, touch, smell(!). It then the pneumatikon, the spirit, which powers. And is this that makes a difference from the bodies we have now, the soma psychikon.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
My problem is that I cannot begin to imagine anything more real than this. Net curtains, glass, coins, scissors, pens; metal, plastic and wooden rulers, electro-magnetic technology ... the startling thing is that everything in my purview at the moment is human made except my forearms and the night and a cedar cone ... even so, I cannot imagine anything orthogonal to it, in a room next door where the physics and biology is within a transcendent reality.
Which leads to the question of whether your imagination is so limited that if you cannot imagine what it might be like, then you cannot imagine that it might be.
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
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Philip Charles
Ship's cutler
# 618
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Posted
A little programme I am trying to debug seems to me to be an analogy for the resurrection body. It has sat in memory, been printed on paper, saved to the hard drive, backed up on a usb flash drive and in my head (I hope). The programme has been moved from one medium to another very different medium several times. The programme must be stored somehow or it ceases to exist.
Likewise, for a person to exist they must have a body of some kind. The after death body must be totally different to our earthly body, and Jesus' post resurrection body could well be different again.
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There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
Posts: 89 | From: Dunedin, NZ | Registered: Jun 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I have always thought of our resurrection as data. We are running now on these rather wonky low-power machines, full of bugs and cranky quirks. Think knees; eyesight; digestion!
When we die, these machines are gone. But God uploads the data onto Heavenly jump drives or something; the angelic host keeps these in good order. (It will wind up looking something like the data tower in Rogue One, the STAR WARS movie.)
When God's gotten the New Creation out of beta, they have a party to celebrate. Then everybody is uploaded from storage back into the new system. We will have more power, the problems will be gone, and we will really be able to have some fun.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Hmmm. God's holodeck here we come. Imprisoned in a matrix of illusion. W H, I can fantasize all I like, but the wheels won't go round. The net curtains are so perfect. The emergent Moiré fringes where they fold. Unimaginable.
[ 21. April 2017, 14:23: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
We're like a load of caterpillars in a jar trying to describe life as a butterfly on a leaf - none of us have ever seen it.
It'll be fun ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Philip Charles:
A little programme I am trying to debug seems to me to be an analogy for the resurrection body. It has sat in memory, been printed on paper, saved to the hard drive, backed up on a usb flash drive and in my head (I hope). The programme has been moved from one medium to another very different medium several times. The programme must be stored somehow or it ceases to exist.
Likewise, for a person to exist they must have a body of some kind. The after death body must be totally different to our earthly body, and Jesus' post resurrection body could well be different again.
I think we exist in our relationships, so the resurrection body is not our body, but is the Church, the network of people we give ourselves to, the community of goodwill.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The data, IT, computer model doesn't do it for me. There's too much control, accuracy and control. I'm more of 'where does the flame go when the the candle goes out' kind of person. I see myself flying like a moth into the flame, which I guess combines my life's candle going our with cremation. Or hell.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
The nearest I get is to imagine another dimension (or more accurately a differently dimensioned experience of reality) where our consciousness is not hitched to the arrow of time.
Jengie
[ 21. April 2017, 20:20: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I'm so looking forward to watching perfume bottles refill from thin air.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
yes, except they will always be full or always be empty depending on relative to which part of you, you are talking about.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Which part of ME?! And why can't it be full and empty and indeterminate? Schrödinger's perfume? Or is there no quantum mechanics in God's holodeck?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I should have said which part of you, you are aware of.
"I" resurrected is not the individual at the point of death but the who individual from birth to death.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
... "I" resurrected is not the individual at the point of death but the whole individual from birth to death. ...
Jengie, that gets two of these ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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