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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: How to fire Trump
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Heard an interesting discussion on How to Fire Trump. This appeared in the New Yorker
Basically, there is one of two ways. First, there is the 25th amendment to the US Constitution. It says if congress or the cabinet determines the president is unable to fulfill the duties of the office, he can be fired.
The other way is through the impeachment process. The House has to impreach. The Senate would have to convict.
The key to either option is the popularity of the President. Since Trump has been so unpopular, it can happen anytime. But the most likely time would be if the House of Representatives flips to the Democratic side.
Historically in an off election 32 Congressional seats flip to the opposing party. The House currently has a 35 seat Republican majority, so it is within the power of possibility.
And, now, the House Republicans have shot themselves in the foot with the forced passage of the Republican Health Care Act.
Interesting times.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
And here's the NPR "Fresh Air" interview with him on today's show (both 42:30 audio and transcript).
I was really impressed. The New Yorker writer Evan Osnos explained everything very well and in an understandable way. Host Terri Gross was at her best. (IMHO, she's at her best with investigative reporters/authors, and also musicians.) And she gave him the entire show. They both stayed calm and professional.
I highly recommend it.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
Important safety tip: replace Mike Pence, THEN impeach Trump. Pence is even more dangerous - he's a sexist, homophobic troglodyte who does have government experience.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I'm disturbed, nay offended that Trump has curtailed the meeting with Australia's Prime Minister to a brief half hour. This is a slap in the face to one of the USA's closest allies and seems odd considering Trump really laid out the red carpet for the Chinese leader. This offensive treatment of our Prime Minister will not be quickly forgotten.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Important safety tip: replace Mike Pence, THEN impeach Trump.
Agreed -- we got rid of Agnew before dealing with Nixon.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I'm disturbed, nay offended that Trump has curtailed the meeting with Australia's Prime Minister to a brief half hour. This is a slap in the face to one of the USA's closest allies and seems odd considering Trump really laid out the red carpet for the Chinese leader. This offensive treatment of our Prime Minister will not be quickly forgotten.
Oh come now. The PM is in the best company. Would you rather have your PM treated like Kim or Duterte?
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Marama
Shipmate
# 330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I'm disturbed, nay offended that Trump has curtailed the meeting with Australia's Prime Minister to a brief half hour. This is a slap in the face to one of the USA's closest allies and seems odd considering Trump really laid out the red carpet for the Chinese leader. This offensive treatment of our Prime Minister will not be quickly forgotten.
I should think Turnbull was relieved -half an hour would have as much as anyone sane could take. But what a waste of money for his trip to US
Posts: 910 | From: Canberra | Registered: May 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Some of us would say that Turnbull's not exactly the best company either. Have you ever tried to have a sensible conversation with him on any topic other than how great he is?
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Marama
Shipmate
# 330
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Posted
I am glad to say I have never had to have a discussion with Turnbull about anything. However, with all his faults I do think he is less mad than Trump.
[ 05. May 2017, 11:26: Message edited by: Marama ]
Posts: 910 | From: Canberra | Registered: May 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Important safety tip: replace Mike Pence, THEN impeach Trump. Pence is even more dangerous - he's a sexist, homophobic troglodyte who does have government experience.
This. Very much this.
Frankly, I get tired quickly of all the speculation that impeachment is coming, it's only a matter of time. I'm as dismayed and repulsed by the Trump presidency as anyone, but I'll be very surprised if impeachment happens. Lack of popularity isn't nearly enough, and many politicical considerations would be in play. It could happen, but I don't think it's at all likely. (Though yes, I felt similarly about him getting elected in the first place.)
I wish the people spending their time dreaming about impeachment (or removal by the Cabinet, which is probably even less likely) would instead spend their time focusing on the 2018 and 2020 elections.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Nice fantasy.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Nick--
If you follow the links in the OP and my following post, you'll find that the emphasis is on competency, fitness, etc. 25th amendment stuff.
Not just popularity.
FYI: More than 50,000 psychiatrists have signed a petition saying there's something seriously wrong with T.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re Turnbull:
From the clips I saw on the news, he looked like he was having a great time. It looked like he was at that victory party that T threw.
If he only got half an hour with T, I'm guessing that was private talk. But they interacted quite a bit in the clips.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marama:
I am glad to say I have never had to have a discussion with Turnbull about anything. However, with all his faults I do think he is less mad than Trump.
In my view, you're fortunate. Golden Key speculates that Trump and Turnbull interacted - my experience is that interacting with Turnbull is near impossible unless you're worshipping him. He'll then bless your very name.
Nick Tamen is right. OK, 50,000 psychiatrists (and of course none has examined him on a one-to-one basis) consider that there's something wrong with Trump. You could multiply that number by 10, and there'd still be very limited possibility of impeachment. How ever would you get a majority of the Reps to impeach, let alone persuade at least 2/3 of the Senators to convict him? Very, very difficult. The same for the vote by the Cabinet.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Nick--
If you follow the links in the OP and my following post, you'll find that the emphasis is on competency, fitness, etc. 25th amendment stuff.
Not just popularity.
FYI: More than 50,000 psychiatrists have signed a petition saying there's something seriously wrong with T.
Yes, I know it's about more than popularity, GC. That part of my post was in response to a comment in the OP.
As for the 50,000 psychiatrists, I'm guessing none have actually examined him, and they're just going off public info. I think they could well be right, but that's hardly a diagnosis.
Reagan had dementia during much of his presidency, and he had a Cabinet made up of people with backbone, yet they didn't remove him. (It was discussed, apparently.) Somehow I have trouble imagining that Trump's Cabinet would have the backbone to remove him, something that as best I can remember has never happened before.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
No, they never will. That would be the GOP admitting their figurehead was a mistake, and they will never do that. They will stonewall and delay as long as they can; party is more important to them than the country.
A better hope would be flipping Congress in 2018. With a Democratic House, some subpoenas could be issued. His tax returns will tell the tale. Lyin' Don is so dirty and corrupt already that a solid case could quickly be made for malfeasance. Then and only then can we move on to impeachment.
With the threat of a Full Nixon before him, Li'l Donny might be induced by Ivanka to resign 'for health reasons'.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Nice fantasy.
If by nice you meant puerile, then I totally agree.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Important safety tip: replace Mike Pence, THEN impeach Trump. Pence is even more dangerous - he's a sexist, homophobic troglodyte who does have government experience.
So here is the dilemma. For everyone.
Trump is more and more showing his lack of fitness.
Pence is better for the Republicans, they would be a steamroller running over the people and environment. But they would have to admit they were wrong and face the delusional faithful.
Pence would be worse for the, well everyone except the already rich, but avoiding him requires not firing Trump. Something that I imagine sticks in the craw of every mentally balanced person in the US.
The best solution for America, and probably the world, would be if the Democrats took over the House and left the Cheeto in office.
Not a fantastic one, but there is no good option available for nearly 4 years.
[ 05. May 2017, 14:50: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
If he could be chained and rendered impotent by the legislative and judiciary arms of the government, then keeping Lyin' Don on deck, raving and gnawing the deck planking, might indeed be the smartest tactic for the Democrats. The Tea Party base would still have their flag in all its tweeting ugliness but we normal people would be kept more or less safe from the lunacy.
Our problem at this moment is that although the judiciary is a bulwark, Congress is rubber-kneed and spaghetti-spined, the Viagra-popping slave of their vile master. If we can throw the ring into the volcano, he will become the usual dark spirit gnawing itself but unable to grow or interfere.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
I think it could be quite a bad thing to impeach Trump, or to have him die in office. Some people in the USA are really very unstable, and they have virtually unfettered access to military grade weapons. Quite a few of them might tip over the edge and do some real damage if Trump is perceived as hard-done-by, and if he is impeached he will be seen as being hard done by.
I think it would be much better for Trump to decide not to run again after four years and allow Pence to take his shot early. The trouble with Pence is that he looks good and sounds reasonable, if you don't listen to his words. I think he will be a good candidate for the Republicans next time around.
But, let's just focus on the midterms hey. This shit is a distraction.
As for the Trump/Turnbull relationship, Trump is still pissed that we didn't roll over on the refugee deal. Turnbull just needs to spend a year or so soft soaping him, or at least as long as he has till Turnbull loses the next election. Then our Bill Shorten will no doubt have to grovel at Trump's feet about those comments he made before Trump's election. Sigh. Smile, chew Trump Steak, laugh at barely comprehensible joke, compliment compliment compliment. Gee what big hands you have. Very powerful.
Stupid Turnbull should have offered that refugee deal up on a silver platter in the first place, in homage to the Great Man. We would have been where we needed to be alot earlier and with less brown-nosing. And maybe we could have dealt with our own refugee storm-in-a-teacup ourselves.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Our problem at this moment is that although the judiciary is a bulwark, Congress is rubber-kneed and spaghetti-spined, the Viagra-popping slave of their vile master. If we can throw the ring into the volcano, he will become the usual dark spirit gnawing itself but unable to grow or interfere.
Our real problem is that the Democrats have no one who can step forward as a front runner. If the Kennedy Brothers are indeed in heaven, perhaps they can whisper in God's ear to do something, anything.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Pangolin Guerre
Shipmate
# 18686
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
With the threat of a Full Nixon before him, Li'l Donny might be induced by Ivanka to resign 'for health reasons'.
I argued the same thing on The Circus poll on Trump's departure, except that IRCC I raised also the possibility of a Praetorian move. I'll split the pot with you.
[ 05. May 2017, 17:49: Message edited by: Pangolin Guerre ]
Posts: 758 | From: 30 arpents de neige | Registered: Nov 2016
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
[QUOTE]Our real problem is that the Democrats have no one who can step forward as a front runner. If the Kennedy Brothers are indeed in heaven, perhaps they can whisper in God's ear to do something, anything.
No, I think we're OK. Remember the election is three years away. In early 2005 how well known was Barack Obama?
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
The New Yorker article points out that quite a few of the presidents of the past also had mental health issues. It is well known Lincoln suffered severe depression most of his life. Lyndon Johnson became very paranoid because of the stress level of the office. But in most cases, the presidents were still able to function.
The article also addressed the issue of why so many mental health professions have publically questioned Trump's ability to govern without having to formally examine him. Basically, it goes to a rule that came out of the Goldwater campaign. Goldwater claimed he lost because mental health people questioned his ability to govern and Goldwater sued. Goldwater won. The biggest difference now is many professionals feel a greater obligation under the duty to warn standard.
Popularity is a big issue in the impeachment process. We have had only two presidents be impeached. In both cases the men had become unpopular. Andrew Johnson was impeached by his own Republican party because of how Johnson wanted to go easy on the Southern States after the Civil War. Bill Clinton was also quite unpopular he was impeached--he was actually impeached by a lame duck congress as its last hurrah, frankly. Nixon resigned before he could have been impeached, but, again, he was widely unpopular nationwide.
So, if 35 House of Representative sents flip to the Democrats, they will have enough votes to impeach. But there are a number of Republican members of the house who also privately question Trump's fitness
The likelihood of he HoR flipping has increased with the latest passage of the Republican Health Care Act.
On the Senate side, you will need 60 Senators to vote to convict. I am betting by the time 2018 comes around there will be enough Republican Senators who will want to cut their losses and get rid of Trump because they will be facing their own constituents if not in 2018, 2020.
BTW, Spiro Agnew was not impeached. He was forced to resign.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
Just a question from left-field...
Say you got rid of Trump. Say he was replaced by a more typical politician who didn't take to Twitter each evening to say how GREAT or BAD something is. Say even the Democrats win the next election.
What changes for the disaffected? What changes for those who, for whatever reason, voted for Trump? Do you see any recognition from either side, and here is where I show my colo(u)rs, that the promises of endless wealth and choice are an illusion for some and do not necessarily mean a more equal society? Do you see a recognition that promises made by politicians are worth nought? (And to criticise the other side, how many here truly believe Hillary would not support the Transpacific Free Trade Agreement after her changing her view in the campaign? Are we just supposed to expect lies?)
Does this mean the disaffected disengage completely? While us political junkies rejoice that the evil wizard is dead and buried, politically, and continue to act as if all is fine? Maybe I am too pessimistic...but I worry nothing has been learnt from Trump. But maybe I am wrong.
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
You want us, or someone, to promise real change. Surely you can see that that entirely depends upon who is elected (or succeeds) to the post. In other words, it is utterly unknown at this time.
Nor do I believe that a simple swap at the top will really change things. Real change is slow, generations slow. An example: in our lifetime, we have seen China's poverty shift. There is a middle class now. Will it stick? Can the good trend continue? Unknown, but it was a tremendous amount of work and luck to get it even to this point.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
Good points. Thanks.
A more direct question, if anyone knows. Are the Democrats (whoever "they" are) taking a good hard look at why the ogre got so many votes, or is it a case of them trying to rally their supporters? I am not saying it needs to be either / or, but I do worry about preaching to the converted alone, while the disaffected are left so...and left as easy targets for Trumpesque lunatics. But maybe it is a time thing as you wrote Brenda...I am impatient and I worry what Trump, Brexit, Let Pen... means for the future. And worry if Trump's replacement will be worse than the first!
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
Just a question from left-field...
Say you got rid of Trump. Say he was replaced by a more typical politician who didn't take to Twitter each evening to say how GREAT or BAD something is. Say even the Democrats win the next election.
What changes for the disaffected? What changes for those who, for whatever reason, voted for Trump? Do you see any recognition from either side, and here is where I show my colo(u)rs, that the promises of endless wealth and choice are an illusion for some and do not necessarily mean a more equal society? Do you see a recognition that promises made by politicians are worth nought? (And to criticise the other side, how many here truly believe Hillary would not support the Transpacific Free Trade Agreement after her changing her view in the campaign? Are we just supposed to expect lies?)
I think it's easy to feel this way, when we see so much evidence on both sides of the aisle of the corrupting influence of deep/dark money.
But... to draw this to the logical conclusion, you would have to conclude, for example, that eight years of the Obama administration were meaningless. But the last 100 days have been about undoing what Obama did-- and we are already feeling the pain. The Obama presidency certainly did not go far enough, was hindered and perhaps blinded in many ways. But there were clear and measurable gains in the environment, in employment, and notably with health care-- as evidenced by our dismay at seeing it all undone.
As Brenda said, it's a long, slow process, and one that involves more than just POTUS. But change does happen-- incrementally-- with sufficient public will behind it.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
On the Senate side, you will need 60 Senators to vote to convict. I am betting by the time 2018 comes around there will be enough Republican Senators who will want to cut their losses and get rid of Trump because they will be facing their own constituents if not in 2018, 2020.
With 100 senators, and a vote of 2/3 required to convict on impeachment, my maths says you need 67 Senators.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
You could read The Better Angels of Our Nature by Stephen Pinker. In which he argues, and bolsters it with vast data and graphs, that over the millennia the human race has gotten slowly but measurably less vicious. His thesis has been hotly debated. But it is one of those books which you finish and then pray, "Oh Lord, let Pinker be right!"
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
Thanks cliff dwellers and Brenda. Food for thought.
I heard an interview with Pinker on that book...it does sound interesting.
Thanks again.
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Even harder to get than 60 - and that's after getting a majority in the Reps to impeach him. Buckley's chance of either.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
No, I think we're OK. Remember the election is three years away. In early 2005 how well known was Barack Obama?
In 2005, Barack Obama was an impressive new Senator. I know a couple of people who heard him speak at the time, and both said something to the effect of "watch this guy - he's going places." He may not have had much national recognition, but his name was circulating as a talent to watch.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
No, I think we're OK. Remember the election is three years away. In early 2005 how well known was Barack Obama?
In 2005, Barack Obama was an impressive new Senator. I know a couple of people who heard him speak at the time, and both said something to the effect of "watch this guy - he's going places." He may not have had much national recognition, but his name was circulating as a talent to watch.
I actually told my students in a class I was teaching around then that I hoped to vote for Sen. Obama from Illinois someday.
But he wasn't the obvious front-runner at the time. Which is the point-- there are a lot of interesting Democrats out there-- front runners like Elizabeth Warren to lesser knowns like Kamala Harris from my own state. The point is 2020 is a long way off, there's still time for someone to stand out from the pack.
The same is true, of course, for the GOP-- if they aren't running Trump or Pence.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I still wonder, though, will misogyny allow America to elect a female president regardless of her qualifications?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The point is 2020 is a long way off.
But 2018 isn't. Who is there who could replace the despicable Mitch McConnell and his deer-in-the-headlights stare, or the loathsome Lindsay Graham, who looks like he washes his face in Botox, or all the other Repulsivicans?
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
But 2018 isn't. Who is there who could replace the despicable Mitch McConnell and his deer-in-the-headlights stare, or the loathsome Lindsay Graham, who looks like he washes his face in Botox, or all the other Repulsivicans?
Umm, anybody? But McConnell and Graham aren't up for election in 2018 (unless you mean to suggest that the Senate should swing D, in which case Chuck Schumer, the current minority leader, would make a perfectly acceptable job of majority leader).
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Pangolin Guerre
Shipmate
# 18686
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Posted
I say this not in defense of Trump, but as a general observation about the mental health of POTI (latinised plural of POTUS). The responsibilities of the office have always been heavy, but they have grown in ways unquantifiable since the founding of the republic. However robust the USA has been, it was really only in 1945 that it assumed truly global responsibility, in that it could destroy the globe (well, its ecosystem, but still...) My point is that under the pressure of so many, so great, responsibilities, any human might go a bit wonky. That Lincoln, who suffered depression before becoming POTUS, managed to keep it together through the Civil War, is why he is the one president of whom I revere. He was possessed of a depth of humanity that, I think, is what got him through. (Great affection for FDR, and would love to have a few drinks with Teddy, for all his flaws.)
Posts: 758 | From: 30 arpents de neige | Registered: Nov 2016
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
... That Lincoln, who suffered depression before becoming POTUS, managed to keep it together through the Civil War, is why he is the one president of whom I revere. ...
Since half the country was fighting a war against him at the time, is that really the best way of putting that?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
Armchair diagnosing Trump is a bad idea. It only serves to increase stigma against people with mental illness, particularly those with personality disorders who experience particularly high levels of stigma. Mental illness and neurodivergence (autism, ADHD, OCD and other conditions that are down to inherent neurological difference) does not determine someone's personality as being unstable, unpleasant, untrustworthy etc. Plenty of neurotypical Trumps exist.
Given that mentally ill and neurodivergent people's healthcare is being taken away by Trump, armchair diagnosing him because he's an awful person seems to be in particularly poor taste. I'm mentally ill and have ADHD, my best friend has a personality disorder - both of us could be a better President (our UK citizenship notwithstanding).
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Armchair diagnosing Trump is a bad idea.
The first inkling that something is not right rarely occurs in a psychologist's office.
quote:
It only serves to increase stigma against people with mental illness, particularly those with personality disorders who experience particularly high levels of stigma.
In this case I disagree, at least partially. Not because I detest the man, but because his proposed conditions are not the only thing by which he is being judged.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Pigwidgeon
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
No, I think we're OK. Remember the election is three years away. In early 2005 how well known was Barack Obama?
In 2005, Barack Obama was an impressive new Senator. I know a couple of people who heard him speak at the time, and both said something to the effect of "watch this guy - he's going places." He may not have had much national recognition, but his name was circulating as a talent to watch.
I believe it was this speech at the 2004 Democratic Convention that brought Barack Obama national recognition.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Pigwidgeon
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# 10192
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Posted
According to National Public Radio, 129 People Have Already Filed To Run For President In 2020 (including Trump). They also offer speculation about some other potential candidates (Mark Zuckerberg???).
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Armchair diagnosing Trump is a bad idea.
The first inkling that something is not right rarely occurs in a psychologist's office.
quote:
It only serves to increase stigma against people with mental illness, particularly those with personality disorders who experience particularly high levels of stigma.
In this case I disagree, at least partially. Not because I detest the man, but because his proposed conditions are not the only thing by which he is being judged.
So increased stigma against people with mental illness just doesn't matter?
'Something is not right' is not a diagnosis. It would be inappropriate to diagnose someone as having diabetes just because they're very thirsty, or as having a brain tumour just because they have a really bad headache. Nobody would act like this about physical illness, so why perpetuate the myth that mental illness is less of an illness? Moral failure is not a mental illness, and neither is mental illness a moral failure.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
So increased stigma against people with mental illness just doesn't matter?
I didn't say that in the slightest.
quote:
'Something is not right' is not a diagnosis. It would be inappropriate to diagnose someone as having diabetes just because they're very thirsty, or as having a brain tumour just because they have a really bad headache. Nobody would act like this about physical illness,
WTF?! Yes they would. Not one physical instance, but recurring? Of course people do.
I don't see this thread denigrating mental illness. I see people observing Trump's obvious problems beyond his moral deficiencies and trying to work them out. If one views videos from his younger days, there is an apparent degradation.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
And it's not just unqualified internet bloggers who are making the suggestion of mental instability-- it's highly regarded psychiatrists. Quite a few of them, despite professional reservations about the practice of long-distance diagnosis. And they're not claiming "mental illness" in some generalized way that would stigmatize all those who suffer in this way-- they're suggesting a specific diagnosis with specific criteria that Trump appears to meet.
Is it speculative? Of course-- as everyone, including those raising the alarm, realizes. But there are clear signs. So your physical illness analogy is apt: if someone is really thirsty a lot, that doesn't mean they automatically have diabetes. But a competent physician who observes excessive thirst and one or two other markers would reasonably say "this is something we should check out" and order a blood panel. That's what psychiatrists are saying here-- there are markers for narcissistic personality syndrome, Trump appears to meet quite a lot of them, and professionals in the field are saying this is something that should be checked out by a medical professional-- for the good of the country if not the world.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Pigwidgeon
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# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
'Something is not right' is not a diagnosis. It would be inappropriate to diagnose someone as having diabetes just because they're very thirsty, or as having a brain tumour just because they have a really bad headache. Nobody would act like this about physical illness, so why perpetuate the myth that mental illness is less of an illness?
People do assume physical illnesses based on observations, even if they're not doctors. For one example, my sister was our mother's chief caregiver when Mom had Parkinson's. My sister could tell watching Pope John Paul II on television that he had symptoms of Parkinson's long before the Vatican announced it.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Lamb Chopped
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Posted
Leaving aside his moral issues (the narcissism and the like), I'm concerned about his word salad and his rotten judgement. Those look like deepening dementia to me, and I have some professional training / education on the subject.
I would be very glad to get a proper doctor to see him, but you know that's going to be refused. Remember what he did with that during the campaign?
A pity there's no simple test for Alzheimer's.
ETA: And yes, this is armchair diagnosis, it can hardly be avoided when you hear someone being as routinely incoherent as he is. And really, virtually every "real" diagnosis is preceded by armchair diagnosis, even if it's no more definitive than "something ain't right." That's how relatives get taken to the doctor in the first place--somebody gets worried enough.
[ 06. May 2017, 18:26: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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