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Source: (consider it) Thread: Zimbabwe
shamwari
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Title of a book I have in mind.

"When theives fall out"

Posts: 1910 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Kwesi
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We aren't holding our breath, are we?
Posts: 1524 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stetson
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I'm surprised this hasn't been getting more prominent coverage. By the standards of African leaders, Mugabe was pretty high-profile on the global stage(of course, not always for positive reasons). We actually saw a fair bit of him in the Canadian news media in the 1980s.

Mind you, that was when Mulroney was leading the fight against apartheid in the Commonwealth, and Mugabe was on side. So that probably factored into his visibility. But even the land-grabs in the late 90s(which had no Canadian connections) got a fair bit of notice in the global media.

Posts: 6410 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stetson
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If Christian Concern is looking for a new spokesman...

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

Posts: 6410 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
John3000
Apprentice
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John Sentamu might finally be able to replace his dog collar, it has been ten years. [Yipee]
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betjemaniac
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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
I'm surprised this hasn't been getting more prominent coverage. By the standards of African leaders, Mugabe was pretty high-profile on the global stage(of course, not always for positive reasons). We actually saw a fair bit of him in the Canadian news media in the 1980s.

Mind you, that was when Mulroney was leading the fight against apartheid in the Commonwealth, and Mugabe was on side. So that probably factored into his visibility. But even the land-grabs in the late 90s(which had no Canadian connections) got a fair bit of notice in the global media.

Not much coverage in Canada perhaps - pretty thorough here in the UK (maybe for obvious reasons). A lot of Radio 4's Today yesterday, ditto the PM programme and the 6 o'clock news. 4-6 pages in the Times yesterday - in "news" rather than "world news"; the same again plus an editorial today.

I don't know - I've got loads of connections with the place and am a frequent visitor. Part of me is appalled by the likely successor; part of me thinks "at least it's not Grace."

It's still my favourite country on earth, and it's still (below the carapace of the regime) full of great people at all levels. I've got my fingers crossed, because I've always got my fingers crossed for it. Currently past my 48th hour of being glued to social media.

In the meantime I've upped my monthly donations to ZANE.

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And is it true? For if it is....

Posts: 1402 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
Stetson
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Betjemaniac wrote:

quote:
Not much coverage in Canada perhaps - pretty thorough here in the UK (maybe for obvious reasons). A lot of Radio 4's Today yesterday, ditto the PM programme and the 6 o'clock news. 4-6 pages in the Times yesterday - in "news" rather than "world news"; the same again plus an editorial today.

Actually, I'm in the Republic Of Korea, and I was basing my impression largely on the coverage in the one print paper I read(where it was page 9, albeit with a large headline), plus a few international news sites I'd been looking at.

But the Globe and Mail(Canada's paper-of-record) is now giving it sizable coverage(including editorial), as is the CBC.

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

Posts: 6410 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
churchgeek

Have candles, will pray
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quote:
Originally posted by John3000:
John Sentamu might finally be able to replace his dog collar, it has been ten years. [Yipee]

Wow, I didn't know about that - had to google it.

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I reserve the right to change my mind.

My article on the Virgin of Vladimir

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Martin60
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Just the ZANU–PF old guard heading off a typist.

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Love wins

Posts: 16899 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
stonespring
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As a general question - is a coup (or "military action to restore order and punish criminals" as the military likes to call it) ever a good thing? If so, when, and when is it not?
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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by John3000:
John Sentamu might finally be able to replace his dog collar, it has been ten years. [Yipee]

Yes, I've wondering about that but have been too busy doing other things to post the question today.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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keibat
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Are military coups ever a good thing?

In idealistic principle, No.

In this paradoxical, confused universe, and when the alternative is the further prolongation of a truly evil state of affairs, Maybe.

Ditto military invasions – I'm thinking of Tanzania overthrowing Idi Amin rather than BushBlair invading Iraq.

In fact, for me, the arguments are very comparable to those around Just War. My dad (in the UK) was a pacifist in the 30s; volunteered for military service in 1940, when he believed it had become clear that the only way to end fascism was to defeat it.

My own thinking has gone through a similar trajectory. As a teenager, I became pacifist. Living in Finland for most of my adult life, right next to a Certain Large Country, helped me to rethink some of my idealistic positions. Violence is always evil; sometimes it is the lesser evil.

Also, note: it appears that the violence in Zimbabwe has – so far at least – been minimal. But if Mugabe continues to refuse to knuckle under gracefully – and gracefulness has not been one of his more prominent virtues – then things may turn nastier.

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keibat from the finnish north and the lincs east rim

Posts: 84 | From: Alford, Lincs + Turku, Finland | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stetson
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keibat wrote:

quote:
I'm thinking of Tanzania overthrowing Idi Amin rather than BushBlair invading Iraq.

But there's a strong argument to be made that Tanzania acted in self-defense when they invaded Uganda and ousted Amin, just as there is for Vietnam acting in self-defense when they invaded Cambodia and ousted Pol Pot.

Suppose that instead of bordering Tanzania, Uganda was an island nearby in the Indian Ocean, that wasn't bothering Tanzania at all, but was known to be doing horrible things to its own citizens.

Would the island of Uganda's horrible internal record justify Tanzania invading? I'd say no, because then you're on a slippery slope where any country can invade a non-belligerent country, so long as the invader has a better human-rights record than the invaded.

Posts: 6410 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
shamwari
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The writing was on the wall from day 1. Two things happened first Sunday after Independence. I was Minister of Central Methodist Church in Harare. The new President, Canaan Banana, ( himself a Methodist Minister) came to Church. He arrived in a motorcade with 4 Landrovers bristling with machine guns. His entourage took up 4 rows opposite an exit door and all were armed to the teeth. A militaristic display incompatible with worship. The choir seats were commandeered by Central Intelligence personnel who sat there taking notes! That afternoon I went for a service in a township Church. Arrived to find the doors symbolically locked by a flimsy bit of string and a pile of shoes at the door. No sign of congregation. The Youth Wing had forcibly marched them off to a political rally (sans shoes) half a mile away. That was Day1.
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Gramps49
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Some reports in the American press, but we are so involved with our sex scandals and Mueller investigations, not much time for anything else.

I am surprised it took this long for the military to intervene. They really had no other choice.

Posts: 2032 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011  |  IP: Logged
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
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Thanks shamwari. Interesting hearing what happened to you. Not sure I could've kept my cool and keep going in that morning service.

A lot of speculation in where Mugabe may go. And rather sad, as it has been for a while, that a champion of African independence has let his country and people get where they now are.

Washington Post sounds a warning, from a cable from 2000:
quote:
...that Mnangagwa was “widely feared and despised throughout the country” and “could be an even more repressive leader” than Mugabe.

Posts: 7558 | From: Albury, Australia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
As a general question - is a coup (or "military action to restore order and punish criminals" as the military likes to call it) ever a good thing? If so, when, and when is it not?

If I'm understanding it right this one was carried out without loss of life so the only criterion is "does it produce a better outcome than the status quo". A lot of that depends on the objectives of the military.

The situation of Turkey is an interesting one to consider: how many times has the military intervened in the name of defending the (secular) constitution? The recent slide into Islam-flavoured authoritarianism would likely have produced such an intervention in the past. Would that have been a better or worse outcomes?

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Kwesi
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The basket case that is Zimbabwe is a tragedy in which a combination of factors have combined to produce the present farce.

1.Absence of a democratic tradition. (Colonialism, white settler supremacy, emergence of black-based political parties based on communist-style democratic centralism).

2.Cold War. (Western support for apartheid South Africa and Portuguese rule in Angola and Mozambique, thereby forcing the emergence of an independence armed struggle and dependence on the Soviet Union, Cuba and China).

3.Armed Struggle for independence that divided the Matabele and Shona, and was only resolved with military violence against the Matabele post-independence. Furthermore, the victors in the armed struggle were reluctant to permit democratic procedures to deny them the fruits of victory bought by suffering and bloodshed. Ruthless electoral violence even against the Shona when declining electoral support amongst them threatened ZANU-PF rule. (The organiser of this domestic violence is none other than Mnangagwa, who is likely to replace Mugabe).

4.Poor, unimaginative, resentful, vengeful, and deeply prejudicial political leadership, both white and black at least since 1945. (Systems include the quality of the people who run them. They are not simply impersonal).

5.The emergence of a post-independence Kleptocracy, which, combined with administrative incompetence, ran the economy into the ground. This did not matter because the elite, including the security elites, benefitted themselves through diamond smuggling and the export of other mining raw materials.

6.Virtual unconditional South African ANC support, arising from Zimbabwean backing for their anti-apartheid struggle.

7.Unwillingness of the African Union to challenge the current state of affairs because to do so would threaten not too dissimilar elites elsewhere.

…….as Shamwari said at the start of these posts, what we now have is a case of thieves falling out, and there is no reason to believe it is the harbinger of a political culture (democracy and the rule of law) which Zimbabwe has never had.

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shamwari
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Well said Kwesi
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Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
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Thank you for that Kwesi; you filled in much of my ignorance, particularly the cold war and Matabele & Shona aspects which I'm off to research more on.
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Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
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There was a lot of chatter by journalists indicating Mugabe would resign.

He didn't.

Not sure what happens from here.

But journalists should be careful what they tweet, imnsho. End up looking foolish.

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Fuzzipeg
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I think this is really musical chairs. The rise of Grace Mugabe threatened the established order of succession, that's all. Much to my surprise the Economist seems to think that Emmerson Mnangagwa will take steps to revive the economy and reverse much of Mugabe's policy but he, and Zanu PF, are not noted for espousing human rights and the military still hold the trump card.

It's like South Africa. There are too many persons who have an interest in maintaining the status quo for as long as possible for financial gain.

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http://foodybooze.blogspot.co.za

Posts: 912 | From: Johannesburg, South Africa | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Kwesi
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Fuzzipeg
quote:
Much to my surprise the Economist seems to think that Emmerson Mnangagwa will take steps to revive the economy and reverse much of Mugabe's policy but he, and Zanu PF, are not noted for espousing human rights and the military still hold the trump card.
I think you have to separate economic management from considerations of democracy. There are many examples of successful economic transformation taking place outside a democratic political framework. China is a modern example. Whether ZANU-PF has the desire, discipline and ability to make the necessary compromises with international capitalist interests and restore the agricultural sector to commercial efficiency we shall see. Economically, it's not ZANU-PF's lack of interest in human rights that's the problem but rather its kleptomaniac culture.
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simontoad
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I suspect Tiberius Caesar's end at the hands of Caligula and his little mate might be waiting in Mugabe's not too distant future.

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Human

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Clint Boggis
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The old bugger is going!


[Yipee] [Yipee]

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
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I have one very happy Zimbabwean colleague in my office this afternoon [Yipee]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Enoch
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He's actually gone now.

I don't think it's wise to hold out that much hope though. Emmerson Mnangagwa is no cuddly democrat. It looks like more of the same - much like the Arab Spring which was supposed to be going to usher in great changes.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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balaam

Making an ass of myself
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It is the end of an error.

But then the end of white supremacy was also the end of an error.

Please God can it be right this time? The ordinary people have suffered for too long.

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Fearfully and wonderfully mad
Love the dinner, hate the din.
ن
blog

Posts: 8775 | From: Somewhere else | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Kwesi
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Balaam
quote:
It is the end of an error.

May that be so, Balaam.
Your Ass, however, might remind you of the adage "there's no such thing as rock bottom in politics."

Posts: 1524 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
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Some reporter or pundit on the radio commented that the vice-president, who's taking over, is as bad as Mugabe, and has done some really awful things.

If that's true, is the situation going to be any better?

I don't mean to quash anyone's joy at getting rid of Mugabe, but...

[Votive]

BTW, has Mugabe actually been seen anywhere? Last I heard, someone else presented his letter of resignation?

Thx.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17994 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
balaam

Making an ass of myself
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quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Balaam
quote:
It is the end of an error.

May that be so, Balaam.
Your Ass, however, might remind you of the adage "there's no such thing as rock bottom in politics."

The history of Matabeleland/Southern Rhodesia/Zimbabwe is one error after another. I have no doubt that Mnangagwa is likely to be less bad at best, but with the people out on the street there is no tolerance for a return to Mugabe style government. We need to pray that there is no return to Zanu v. Zapu style violence: People power only goes so far and the change from jubilant crowd to angry mob when expectations are not met can be rapid.

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Fearfully and wonderfully mad
Love the dinner, hate the din.
ن
blog

Posts: 8775 | From: Somewhere else | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged


 
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