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Source: (consider it) Thread: Balfour Declaration
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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5000 men can't be trusted to remember to pack lunch.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Martin60
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LOL!

I'll see your self deprecating sexism and raise it.

Ten, a hundred times that number of women wouldn't make any difference.

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Love wins

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Golden Key
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Galilit--

Way cool! Girl power! May there be all sorts of wonderful ripple effects, large and small.
[Smile]

Martin--

There's more than one way to make a difference, and more than one kind of difference to be made.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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Funny how we rarely hear about the positive stuff.

Do they call you Cheesy Stormcrow down the pub Mr. C?

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Human

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Galilit
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:

Ten, a hundred times that number of women wouldn't make any difference.

It made a difference to THIS woman...and every other woman there.

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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.

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Martin60
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Well said Galilit. That was my unspoken come back as I wrote my monochrome response.

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Love wins

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
5000 men can't be trusted to remember to pack lunch.

...that might explain a whole lot about history...
[Biased]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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chris stiles
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# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:

Zionism is secular rather than religious in origin. Indeed, for non-religious Jews it has become a political substitute for belief.

It is secular in origin, and perhaps it's incorrect to attribute to it the 'Theology of the Land' that has purchase among the most religious. However, things have certainly moved on since the day when the most religious saw the state of Israel as a largely secular entity.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:

Zionism is secular rather than religious in origin. Indeed, for non-religious Jews it has become a political substitute for belief.

It is secular in origin, and perhaps it's incorrect to attribute to it the 'Theology of the Land' that has purchase among the most religious. However, things have certainly moved on since the day when the most religious saw the state of Israel as a largely secular entity.
And the support for it from some segments of evangelicalism is absolutely and completely religious in origin. I've had people on my Bookface who tell me anyone who doesn't "support Israel" is going to get it hot in the afterlife.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I've had people on my Bookface who tell me anyone who doesn't "support Israel" is going to get it hot in the afterlife.

Now I need to know what a "Bookface" is. Just a reordering of the words in facebook or something else?

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arse

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Just me failing to be cute, yeah, FB

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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simontoad
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I like the IT Crowd's Face Friends

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Human

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Kwesi
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It would seem that contributors to this post agree with me that though Zionism might have been secular in origin it is less so now that it was. I do, however, wish to contend that any increase or decrease of religious zeal in Israel explains little about Israeli policy since the creation of the state by secular Jews:

In my view the course of Israel’s history was set by its foundation as an independent state supported by the United States at the expense of dispossessed Palestinians. Its strategic vulnerability to Arab hostility made it necessary for the new state to improve its military capacity to defend itself against hostile neighbours, to expand its borders, and increase its population by attracting ethnically Jewish immigrants, thereby necessitating further expansion into the West Bank. Unwilling to permit the creation of a Palestinian state or to grant citizenship rights to the Palestinians, both of which threatened to undermine Jewish dominance, the Israelis created Palestinian Bantustans in the West Bank and Gaza. These developments, rhetoric apart, have been characteristics of both left and right governments in Israel because they have been dictated by the imperatives of national survival. None of this has had anything to do with religion, because even if all the Israeli Jews were atheists the political parameters dictating policy would not have been different. If religion is a dimension then it relates to the capacity of the Israelis to mobilise support in the USA Bible Belt to underpin congressional support.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
These developments, rhetoric apart, have been characteristics of both left and right governments in Israel because they have been dictated by the imperatives of national survival. None of this has had anything to do with religion, because even if all the Israeli Jews were atheists the political parameters dictating policy would not have been different.

I think that what some are arguing in this thread is that at this moment in time even if national survival was no longer an issue - the politics are unlikely to change because they are *now* driven by religious reasoning.

So the question is not so much whether Israel might have ended up in the same geopolitical situation via other means, as much as whether the current religious motivations of parts of its population makes it less likely that a political settlement could be achieved.

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Sioni Sais
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/tangent

The Jewish National Homeland really should have been established in upstate New York (ie, the Catskills).

tangent/

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Golden Key
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I think there's a novel that has it in Alaska.

Catskills might work, though. All the Borscht Belt resorts and their comedy shows! (Primarily for Jewish folks, with Jewish comedians.)

On "Big Bang Theory", Sheldon wanted to put it somewhere in the American Southwest. New Mexico, maybe?

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I think there's a novel that has it in Alaska.

How about have a read just up a bit? Michael Chabon "Yiddish Policeman's Union".

Jewish Autonomous Oblast in the far east of Russia, which isn't a fantasy, it actually exists.

But couldn't we move the Palestinians instead. Perhaps evacuate everyone to Jordan? Or maybe they could move to the Jewish Autonomous Oblast, renamed Palestinian Autonomous Oblast. Or maybe rich Saudi Arabia, or dispersed among the Persian Gulf states.

Doesn't it make better sense to move them than the Israelis just now?

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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np--

Sorry, I missed that first reference. Thanks for the second link.

At this point, I don't think moving either group would work. For various reasons, they're all deeply attached to that land.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
np--

Sorry, I missed that first reference. Thanks for the second link.

At this point, I don't think moving either group would work. For various reasons, they're all deeply attached to that land.

Re Jordan:

There are many Palestinians already there. Even the wife of the current king is Palestinian. But I think I heard that the situation of having the Palestinians there isn't always happy.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Enoch
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# 14322

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
How about have a read just up a bit? Michael Chabon "Yiddish Policeman's Union".

Jewish Autonomous Oblast in the far east of Russia, which isn't a fantasy, it actually exists.

But couldn't we move the Palestinians instead. Perhaps evacuate everyone to Jordan? Or maybe they could move to the Jewish Autonomous Oblast, renamed Palestinian Autonomous Oblast. Or maybe rich Saudi Arabia, or dispersed among the Persian Gulf states.

Doesn't it make better sense to move them than the Israelis just now?

Yebbut, that's the point. Theory doesn't cap identity. Neither Alaska nor an obscure bit of eastern Siberia was ever going to do. Having returned to the Promised Land twice, and kept the memory alive of the place the Romans evicted them from for all these centuries, it has to be the same place they hungered to return to for the third, and they hope, final time. Only that bit of land would do. Even without the traumas of Jewish history and persecution, anywhere else would still just be a bed for the night.

Palestinian identity is actually fairly new, created by current tensions. Before 1918, the people who lived there were just subjects of the Turkish sultan who happened to live on or inland from part of the eastern seaboard of the Mediterranean. As an identity, it was only created by their finding themselves in the bit that didn't become any of the other bits. But the people themselves, are the same people as were subjects of the Turks before. Why should they go and live in a cold, dismal and unproductive part of the Russian Far East, or Alaska for that matter (also cold, dismal and unproductive, though probably more scenic)?

If somebody told you it would be more convenient for everybody of you upped sticks, quit Canada and go to either the Russian Far East or Alaska - or for that matter Uganda or Paraguay which I think were also suggested as possible homelands at various times - how would you feel about it?

That's why the problem is intractable. Both sides are right, but neither of them is going about pursuing their cause in ways that wins friends and influences people, yet alone that anyone else can unequivocally support.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Martin60
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Spot on Kwesi. And nobody is going anywhere, apart from powerful Jews on to powerless Arabs' land.

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Love wins

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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With the current racist news from Poland, some interesting details impactful on this were reported. Poland expelled 20,000 Jews in 1968. In 1948 the surrounding countries (Algeria, Egypt, Iraq, Libya, Morocco, Syria, Yemen, Saudi) expelled at least one million Jews from places where they'd lived for at least as long as Palestinians in Israel. Number probably higher.

The eliminationist wars of 1948, 1967, 1973. The Palestinian negotiation of a settlement in 2000-2001 to create an independent Palestinian state, then walking away from it. It included shared control of Jerusalem, land swaps, and what was thought to be everything a final settlement should contain. Instead the Second Intifada was unleashed. It's as if the very idea of accommodation to Israel was the problem. Perhaps Palestinians Do not want peace? Or perhaps surrounding countries are concerned about democracy spreading to their dictatorships?

[ 13. November 2017, 16:14: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

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Martin60
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no..., those were all inevitable effects of the cause of the UN mandated Jewish state forced upon Arab lands. The effects don't justify the cause.

[ 13. November 2017, 22:45: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Love wins

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
no..., those were all inevitable effects of the cause of the UN mandated Jewish state forced upon Arab lands. The effects don't justify the cause.

What Arab lands? The Mandate indicated shared lands. The UN. One group gets this, the other gets that. But no-one wants to share with Jews. And worries that Israel violates human rights, holding Israelis to a standard of behaviour different than their neighbours. Very odd. Query anti-Semitic.
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Martin60
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I beg your pardon?

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Love wins

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Caissa
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The UN recommendation was partition. There is a book on Canada's involvement at the UN debate by David Bercuson called Canada and the Birth of Israel.
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Alan Cresswell

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Partition isn't the same as sharing. It's giving one bit of land to one group and another bit of land to another. Sharing would be both groups having equal rights within the same bit of land.

But, partition or shared, I'm not seeing how the actions of other states in expelling Jews from their territory could be justified by the existence of the state of Israel.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Martin60
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Neither do I. But it was absolutely inevitable and fully calculated.

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Love wins

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Caissa
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The question of a federal state was discussed by UNSCOP and only supported by a minority of states.
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no prophet's flag is set so...

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# 15560

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Is it not so that partition needed to occur because otherwise the Jews were at risk from majoritarian Arab - Muslim populations?

Exchange of populations. Some people have to leave one area and live in another, and then deal with it. This appears reasonably common. What's so special about this situation?

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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What - other than that the partition plan was never enacted?

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arse

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Is it not so that partition needed to occur because otherwise the Jews were at risk from majoritarian Arab - Muslim populations?

Exchange of populations. Some people have to leave one area and live in another, and then deal with it. This appears reasonably common. What's so special about this situation?

It was increasingly forced on the Arabs, against their will, by Turkey from 1882, Britain from 1917, the UN in 1948 and the state of Israel thereafter. Where've you been?

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Love wins

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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We're back to the partition as approved, finally, by the nations of the world. And we have to consider where the Jews should go if not to Israel. Because the surrounding countries attacked immediately, Israel determined to hang on to additional territories, as did surrounding countries. When there was no acceptance of Israel's right to exist, we end up with strategic moves to retain the territory, even in the situation of land for peace, as noted previously in 2000-2001.

I have seen the Hamas Charter, which shows its goals as eliminationist (it and Fatah are the PLO, not clear on the state of their conflict with each other and which is more outrageous), and the leader of the Palestinian government, Mahmoud Abbas, (doesn't control Gaza) appears clearly anti-Jewish.

How can such people be taken seriously about Palestinian-Israeli peace? Would they, as their comments, documents etc indicate, exterminate the Jews if they ran the government which controlled all of the territory? Or force them all out? I cannot see how the Palestinian cause can be taken seriously if this is their leadership.

[ 14. November 2017, 22:18: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Martin60
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# 368

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It's their land.

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Love wins

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simontoad
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# 18096

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I was born and live on indigenous land.

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Human

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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Me too. As my sig says.
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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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The vast majority of people were born and live on indigenous land, since the amount of land that had no indigenous population before the arrival of settlers in recent times is very small.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
We're back to the partition as approved, finally, by the nations of the world. And we have to consider where the Jews should go if not to Israel. Because the surrounding countries attacked immediately, Israel determined to hang on to additional territories, as did surrounding countries. When there was no acceptance of Israel's right to exist, we end up with strategic moves to retain the territory, even in the situation of land for peace, as noted previously in 2000-2001.

OK. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but Israel has ignored the Partition plan and has built large cities in the portion that was not allocated to them. In addition it annexed the West Bank and continued to build settlements in occupied land.

So if you are going back to partition, you are also talking about reducing the size of the nation of Israel, withdrawing from the occupied territories and releasing military control of the Palestinian population.

Maybe you know this, but it isn't clear from what you've written.

On the other point, there is a lot of empty space in Israel. If they really wanted extra urban areas they could easily build more towns in 1948 Israel without the need for settlements in the occupied territories. But it has never been about that.

quote:
I have seen the Hamas Charter, which shows its goals as eliminationist (it and Fatah are the PLO, not clear on the state of their conflict with each other and which is more outrageous), and the leader of the Palestinian government, Mahmoud Abbas, (doesn't control Gaza) appears clearly anti-Jewish.
This is so old -
Hamas has said it will accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders (which is far less equitable than the 1948 partition borders) because the previous position is untenable. And that just shows how ridiculous this whole thing has become - even the most ardent Palestinians now accept that regaining the whole of the land isn't happening and that Israel isn't going away. And they've rowed back significantly on what they're prepared to accept.

But Israel is not interested in that discussion, because obviously they'd lose an awful lot by accepting an agreement based on 1967 borders, not least the claim to, and control of, the West Bank.

quote:
How can such people be taken seriously about Palestinian-Israeli peace? Would they, as their comments, documents etc indicate, exterminate the Jews if they ran the government which controlled all of the territory? Or force them all out? I cannot see how the Palestinian cause can be taken seriously if this is their leadership.
It's very simple when you realise that the official policy of the Israeli government is to make life so uncomfortable for Palestinans (particularly in Gaza) that they'll give up their demands, accept the breadcrumbs of a bandustan that they are offers - and preferably leave altogether.

Hamas are arses, but it is the Israeli government policies which created them.

[ 15. November 2017, 07:29: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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arse

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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I believe it is the Palestinians who ignored the partition plan. Dialogue about it on the other side - Israel - isn't at all pristine, expectable to have free debate in a democracy, but the proposal to trade land for peace has been put forward a series of times. The more remote history is of wars against Israel to eliminate it. The more recent is brokered 'land for peace' which the Palestinian representatives continually reject. The most important recent one seems to be 2000-2001 which the Palestinians walked away from in favour of renewed violence. It doesn't look like they're serious about this sort of peace settlement.

Should Israel build settlements on the disputed territories, demolish homes and conveniently arrange to 'acquire' lands of non-Jewish people? No. But I get where they are coming from. The only time there's any serious offer for something from Palestinians is when they are backed into a corner.

Re Hamas Charter - if this is old history why isn't it repudiated completely? It is still part of their operating documentation. Further a simple internet search will show that the Palestinian leadership Mahmoud Abbas has as recently as this fall advocated violence against Jews and Israel, and also spread the medieval rumour of Jews poisoning water. Not the sort of person who can seriously negotiate anything.

I further understand that the Palestinian government pays matryrs' (terrorists?) families off after they kill themselves, and also those who are in jail for violence. There's something seriously wrong with school textbooks which teach clear anti-Semitism in the Palestinian schools. Ridiculous to suggest this all is seeking peace.

Thus, I'm seeing something anti-Semitic from the Palestinians. Also seeing that some of this is carried forward in some of the internet-available reporting. I get that casting opposition to Israel as anti-Semitic works as a strategy for Israel, a sort of proxying ant-Semitism for Israel, but even if that is true, the Palestinian leadership does appear to be afflicted with anti-Semitism on top of whatever proxying there is. And I don't think the proxying is a very big issue.

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The more remote history is of wars against Israel to eliminate it. The more recent is brokered 'land for peace' which the Palestinian representatives continually reject.

There's nothing wrong with rejecting a bad deal. If the Israeli side are not going to put a reasonable offer on the table then any reasonable negotiator is just going to walk away until such a time as they do. And, for the record a reasonable offer would include a sufficient quantity and quality of land - land where people can live and earn an income (ie: fertile farm land), land that is connected as a coherent whole (ie: not bits and pieces all over the place with great tracts of Israeli land in between).

If Hitler had approached Churchill in 1941 and said "let's have peace between our nations, and in return we'll return the far north of Norway and those bits of the North African desert south of the coastal zone" I doubt Churchill would have bothered coming to the negotiating table.

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I believe it is the Palestinians who ignored the partition plan. Dialogue about it on the other side - Israel - isn't at all pristine, expectable to have free debate in a democracy, but the proposal to trade land for peace has been put forward a series of times. The more remote history is of wars against Israel to eliminate it. The more recent is brokered 'land for peace' which the Palestinian representatives continually reject. The most important recent one seems to be 2000-2001 which the Palestinians walked away from in favour of renewed violence. It doesn't look like they're serious about this sort of peace settlement.

OK, well then you need to look at the historical maps. They're widely available.

Land-for-peace swaps have never offered a fair and equitable distribution of the land and access to the aquifer. At the present time, the Palestinian "owned" (I'm using inverted commas there because the land is not really owned when the occupying power can unilaterally claim it without any recourse to a higher legal authority) land is not contiguous and is essentially a bandustan. Any swaps of land could only be fair if land was given from Israel to Palestinians - there is nothing which could or should be given in reverse.

quote:
Should Israel build settlements on the disputed territories, demolish homes and conveniently arrange to 'acquire' lands of non-Jewish people? No. But I get where they are coming from. The only time there's any serious offer for something from Palestinians is when they are backed into a corner.
I'd just suggest calmly that you might want to go there and see for yourself what is going on. Israel's security requires millions of people to have their lives controlled by a military that they don't accept.

You might see that as understandable, I regard it as preposterous.

And also a ridiculous comment given that the Palestinians could easily say the same thing in reverse.

quote:
Re Hamas Charter - if this is old history why isn't it repudiated completely? It is still part of their operating documentation. Further a simple internet search will show that the Palestinian leadership Mahmoud Abbas has as recently as this fall advocated violence against Jews and Israel, and also spread the medieval rumour of Jews poisoning water. Not the sort of person who can seriously negotiate anything.
What a load of old cobblers. I don't think you know what you are talking about.

The Palestinian Authority only has the power that the Israeli military allows them. The PA is not a state, it is a caretaker government with very limited power.

quote:
I further understand that the Palestinian government pays matryrs' (terrorists?) families off after they kill themselves, and also those who are in jail for violence. There's something seriously wrong with school textbooks which teach clear anti-Semitism in the Palestinian schools. Ridiculous to suggest this all is seeking peace.
Yabber yabber yabber.

quote:
Thus, I'm seeing something anti-Semitic from the Palestinians. Also seeing that some of this is carried forward in some of the internet-available reporting. I get that casting opposition to Israel as anti-Semitic works as a strategy for Israel, a sort of proxying ant-Semitism for Israel, but even if that is true, the Palestinian leadership does appear to be afflicted with anti-Semitism on top of whatever proxying there is. And I don't think the proxying is a very big issue.
Again, as gently as I can, I want to suggest that you might want to go there, or at least talk to people who have gone there before throwing around accusations of anti-Semitism.

In fact, some of those who are most strongly against Israeli policies, most against the land-grabs and most against military actions are Jewish. A good number are also Israeli.

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arse

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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# 15560

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Was the 2000-2001 land for peace completely unacceptable? Were Palestinians serious about it? Are there any acceptable deals which don't involve the elimination of Israel?

If it is "yabber" about Mahmoud Abbas, I think we're into a situation of "alternative facts". The guy's way far out there.

The Hitler thing = Godwin's Law, and not comparable. Also the Palestinians are not British and Abbas is no Churchill.

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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

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Try this video on the history of Palestine/Israel. Or this one from an Israeli peace worker about the difficulties of living with the wall.

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The Hitler thing = Godwin's Law, and not comparable.

OK, I took the first other example of a nation seizing territory by military force with the express intention of providing more land for their people to live on. Substitute for another example if you wish.

quote:
Also the Palestinians are not British and Abbas is no Churchill.
Why does it matter what nationality the people concerned are? If it's not right for French, Belgian, Norwegian and Danish people to have their country occupied by a foreign military power then the same applies to the Palestinians. The Palestinians share the same universal rights as the British, or anyone else. They are not worse than the British, nor less deserving of peace and justice.

And, you're right Abbas isn't Churchill. Abbas doesn't have the ability to blanket bomb whole cities and to slaughter thousands of civilians, much less issued orders to do so.

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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Sigh.

Mahmood Abbas is also known as Abu Mazen and is the chair of the Palestinian Authority. He is from Fatah.

Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli Prime Minister accused him of formenting violence because he (Abu Mazen) called for protests against Israel and said that Palestinian knife attacks were understandable.

Abbas is the leader of a broken administration with almost no power. And has repeatedly stated that violent struggle against Israel is not justified.

Fake news?

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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# 15560

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But Israel was created by the UN, not by its use of military force. The military force was used to attempt to eliminate it. Now rocket attacks are used. Only when backed into a corner have Palestinians agreed to anything. I get that the dictatorships surrounding Israel have manipulated the Palestinians to their ends, but I'm seeing Israel as a party to conflict, not to be blamed alone.

Knife attacks are understandable? Since when? Is this okay? It hearkens back to medieval blood libel.

The 2000 Camp David plan is probably all the Palestinians could reasonably aspire to, and less than they currently have. (read through Territory, East Jerusalem, Right of Return.) This is about as good as it will ever get I think for Palestinians.

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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
But Israel was created by the UN, not by its use of military force.

Did I imagine a six-day war? Are those Israeli conscript troops stationed at check points in the West Bank a figment of my imagination? Are Israeli tanks shelling Gaza a good bit of photo-shopping?

The UN specified a small area as the Israeli state. The current, much larger, area under Israeli control is the result of military conquest.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

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# 15560

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indeed, in response to being attacked. Repeatedly by the surrounding countries. Egypt made a peace deal based on, in part, getting land back. All of this forms the basis of Israeli understanding.

Israel's primary concern appears to be security.

There are several things that seem obvious: Israel will not agree to change itself from a Jewish majoritarian country. It will not agree to land exchanges that compromise security and defence. It also argues that the Palestinians are the responsibility of others in addition to itself.

Does Israel have a right to exist as Jewish state? I think so.

Does Palestine have a right to exist as either a Muslim state or a multi-ethic secular state. I think so, but Israel will have priority. Not because of my view, nor because it is or isn't fair, but because it is the only way this is going to play. And no, it isn't fair.

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:


Knife attacks are understandable? Since when? Is this okay? It hearkens back to medieval blood libel.

Abbas has retracted the claim, which apparently originated from a hoax news site. Not the first nor the last leader to have been taken in by a hoax.

But there are reputable sources which speak of water inequalities and how Israeli military cause severe shortages that violate basic human rights.

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arse

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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# 15560

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Retracting use of the water poisoning trope doesn't remove the historical basis of this anti-Semitic claim. And given Abbas' 1982 dissertation The Other Side: The Secret Relationship Between Nazism and Zionism, he is learned enough to know exactly what he was saying when he said it, back track or not.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged



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