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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Engaging Roy Moore Supporters
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
I have been astounded by the dissonance of evangelical Christians supporting Roy "I like little girls" Moore. To my mind they should be shouting from the rafters telling him to go home and find God before he reemerges back into the public eye.
Nope. They likes him despite pursuing 14 year old girls. WTF?
This article is an enlightening look into why.
Two basic themes: First presuppositionalism, aka the sources of criticism have hidden agendas of unrighteousness. Given that, they should be ignored until they find the Right (pun intended) version of God.
Second, quote:
“It’s a means toward a more moral end: reclaiming American as a Christian country, end Roe vs. Wade and gay marriage, go back to a Christian golden age.”
Quoting John Fea in the linked article.
There is a third strain that is not specifically based in religion: We are Alabama Rebels and the rest of y'all can go to hell.
So, how do you dialogue with that?
My first response was "Don't just condemn them for being ignorant tools." That doesn't actually change anything,nor is it compatible with my belief that I am not called upon to judge anyone, but to love them.
What do you Shippies think?
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
A Christian golden age? OMG, we've just spent centuries escaping that particular prison.
[ 26. November 2017, 14:10: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
A psychiatrist recently told me that therapy is oftentimes pushing at hard spots just enough to make the patient engage in examination of their thoughts.
(No it wasn't about me, although I acknowledge I am nuts.)
That seems to mesh with your observation Eutychus.
Given that I only go through Alabama to get to the Redneck Riviera for vacations, one on one engagement seems unlikely. I wonder if acknowledging the legitimacy of their beliefs, even as I disagree with them, could be helpful.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
A Christian golden age? OMG, we've just spent centuries escaping that particular prison.
My hunch is that by “Christian golden age,” they mean the 1950s.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
A psychiatrist recently told me that therapy is oftentimes pushing at hard spots just enough to make the patient engage in examination of their thoughts.
(No it wasn't about me, although I acknowledge I am nuts.)
That seems to mesh with your observation Eutychus.
Given that I only go through Alabama to get to the Redneck Riviera for vacations, one on one engagement seems unlikely. I wonder if acknowledging the legitimacy of their beliefs, even as I disagree with them, could be helpful.
I was making a parallel with therapy, as it's been my observation that nobody actually wants to do it, but may be impelled to through some kind of personal catastrophe.
However, I don't think the analogy works all that well, as if economic catastrophe hits populations, they may well veer to the right even more. Of course, they may also veer to the left.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Given that I only go through Alabama to get to the Redneck Riviera for vacations, one on one engagement seems unlikely.
What the article seems to mean by this is that people often rethink their prejudices when they are faced with the issue in question within their family circle, for instance.
I think the internet, especially social and mainstream media, widens the gap between publicly held opinions and actual personal behaviour.
People chime in on social media supporting extreme, prejudiced topics through tribalism and as victims of propaganda, and it's easy for the mass media to refer to this in its stories, which thrive on extremism, and give us this extremist picture as the norm.
The real life picture is often more nuanced.
[ETA queztalcoatl the article I linked to mentions trauma as another way of deeply-held worldviews being challenged, but in and of itself it's hardly an ethical therapeutic instrument...]
[ 26. November 2017, 15:25: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Given that I only go through Alabama to get to the Redneck Riviera for vacations, one on one engagement seems unlikely.
What the article seems to mean by this is that people often rethink their prejudices when they are faced with the issue in question within their family circle, for instance.]
We have certainly seen this with GOP legislators on LGBTQ issues and health care issues-- they are all about the hard line until their child/grandchild comes out as gay or is diagnosed with a catastrophic illness/pre-existing condition.
Which has caused some of my lefty friends to quip, "we just need some Senator's son to come out as poor and homeless..."
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Here's another, older article making several of the same points: On Rural America: Understanding Isn’t The Problem
From this it emerges that being personally confronted with one of these contentious issues is the best hope for changing people's minds.
The author questions if even this is enough. In defence of the rural, every group has its blind spots. People who think themselves progressive can be blind to where their actions fail to meet their ideals. And often the blindness is [i[because[/i] they hold these ideals.
I think the author is correct in stating we need reasoned discourse. But not because it will reach these people, but that it might reach their children.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
Personal trauma certainly helped me change. Wasn't fun, but the result is worthwhile.
As to people changing en masse when trauma hits, Kansas comes to mind.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Europe in the 30s is an interesting example, as some countries obviously moved to the right, e.g. Germany, but really overall, there was a polarization between left and right. In fact, in Germany, there was a very big left wing population, who were crushed of course.
I suppose in the UK you can cite the left/right split now between Tories and Corbyn, and in the US, between Trump and Sanders. Sorry, wrong way round. I don't know enough about Alabama.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
I do not think at this point of time anyone can convince Roy Moores supporters to switch sides. Moore is running a campaign on fear of the future, basically. His supporter's fear of the future outweigh their sense of morality.
I think the only way to resolve this will be who can get their vote out. Take the example of Virginia. An ultra-conservative had been projected to win the governor's seat, but the progressives came out in droves and a Democrat was elected by a large margin for a Southern State.
Likewise, look to the urban and minority vote in Alabama. They just might win the day, especially if the Republican vote can be split between Moore and one of several write-ins.
https://www.thenation.com/article/democrats-can-win-in-alabama-and-everywhere/
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
True dat Gramps49. That still leaves engaging Roy Ick Moore supporters.
As someone who is passionate about treating everyone as worthy of compassion, love and acceptance just as they are, I have to include his supporters or be a hypocrit.
So, do I just engage them with compassion, or seek to dialogue, with changing them in mind?
Think I answered my own question. Time to repeat the Serenity Prayer a few times.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It reminds me of the old atheist line about arguing with theists - you can't dissuade someone rationally, if they didn't get persuaded rationally. Same I would think with white supremacists, or whatever you call them. They didn't go through a logical process to get there. I suppose something might shock them out of it, but of course, the danger is that they go further to the right.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Is it unkind of me, to assume that the appeal most likely to have effect will be an appeal to Mammon? Oh yes, it's unkind, so let me get right to the naked appeal to the wallet.
It is worth pointing out that as an entity Alabama is doing itself no favors here. Already everyone reading these words (am I right?) would sooner walk on glass than actually move to Alabama. I can look in the mirror and see why I would never be welcomed in the state, and even if you are not female or a person of ethnicity perhaps you stand in solidarity with persons who are. Would you move your business there? Have your industry convention there? It's already 48th or 49th out of the 50 states in things like child mortality, number of live births, high school graduation rates -- all those rankings that make for a nice place to live or visit.
And now it's going to be a state where a 14-year-old is not going to be safe from predation. Wow, what a great slogan that'll be on the license plates and Chamber of Commerce literature. Only the White House is in your league, Alabama. I know that Mississippi (#50) is rooting for you.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
I take it engagement is not something you really want.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
From the OP article;
quote:
Worthen credits Francis Schaeffer (1912-1984), the widely influential evangelical theologian, best known for his crusading opposition to abortion, as the architect of this way of thinking.
I think that's the main reason. I sometimes try to talk with conservative Christians on another message board. During the lead up to the last election I tried several times to just get them to think a little bit about whether or not a Christian should vote for Trump, in view of things like his "locker room talk," and his attitude to immigrants. No matter how nicely I tried to word my posts they viewed me as a troll and called me an "evil" influence.
Every debate, and I use the word loosely, came down to the abortion issue. No matter how long the list of awful things Trump had said and done, nothing was ever as bad as Hillary being pro-choice.
They will back Roy Moore with a clear conscience because they believe that nothing any one man does is as bad as having a liberal in high office and possibly effecting the next appointments to the Supreme Court.
I am so sick of it. I'm sick of the 2nd amendment being the reason we must all live in a world without gun control, and I'm sick of the abortion issue determining that we must have horrible people in government.
I am pro-choice but I would now be willing to say, okay, make abortion illegal again, if it meant an end to this.
Attitudes toward SSM will change as people have gay and transgendered family members, but they wont know if a daughter or cousin has an abortion. I grew all the way up not even knowing what an abortion was, but now it seems to be a sermon subject for evangelicals every other Sunday, alternating with the Adam and Steve sermon. With that sort of indoctrination I can't see much chance of ever changing the belief that an abortion at six weeks is exactly the same as killing an eight year old child. So of course Trump and Roy Moore will win elections.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Tortuf
I am not sure what you meant by engaging Moore supporters. If you are seeking to engage them in order to change their minds, you can't. There is no use trying.
If you want to engage them concerning other non=political issues, you might have better luck but I doubt you will find much common ground.
There are those times when you have to keep your distance from such toxic people.
I lived just across the border of Alabama in Mississippi for three years. I actually trained in the Air Force in Montgomery Alabama and had two other TDYs there.
I just know in rural Alabama you won't be able to say more than hi and bye to them. Their minds are made up. They distrust foreigners (read anyone beyond their county limits) However, I think you will be able to find more openness among the city folk.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Great OP Tortuf. How am I to dialogue with my Muslim neighbours? Ah! There's the magic word. Neighbours. I'm to dialogue with them as a neighbour. If they were rednecks, the same. And I've done that. Lived on the second worst estate in a town where we were the most recent blood since the Danes. Our murder rate was lower. The age structure broader. Pre-war council houses you see. Only 5% - I counted - didn't take care of their front yards. We dialogued just fine. Never talked politics. Or religion. Just celebrated my stepson's 40th. I adore him. He's a Holocaust denier. I could crusade against my neighbours, ostracize my stepson and feel pathologically righteous I'm sure. Or just naively dig up and open the cans of worms beneath us. Why? Oh, what's that Sooty? These aren't analogous to engaging with Roy Moore supporters? They are to me. I've dialogued with a Britain First fascist on FaceBook without compromise and without hate hate. I refused to let him go. We are to be a blessing. Not a patronizing one. Not a superior one. Not a regretful, head shaking one. Just a blessing. ... A subversive one.
We will NEVER win them with confrontation, argument, 'reason', condescension, pleading. But by being good neighbours. What's that Sooty? They're too remote to be considered as neighbours?
That IS a problem. That reinforces them and us. Which is the first step to tyranny. Worked well for Hillary didn't it?
We have to include them. Embrace them. Subvert them. Out of love.
Well that's the theory.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
They are not using dogs on black people this time.
[Quote]Neil Young, Southern Man
[Qb]Southern man
better keep your head
Don't forget
what your good book said
Southern change
gonna come at last
Now your crosses
are burning fast[/url]
Bred in their bones.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I thought this thread was about fundamentalist Christians but it didn't take long to turn into articles and posts stating that all Southerners and all rural people are ignorant racists.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Because that's the way it plays. Racism is the history. Sexism and assault is the present. Christianity of a warped sort is the flaunted foundation.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
The OP was wondering about evangelicals supporting Roy (ack) Moore. By definition these are Alabama evangelicals, since those outside the state have no vote in his election.
I say we let them have that word. They can be evangelicals -- the name is too befouled to be attractive to anyone else now, after what they've done to it. We take the name of Christ, and go somewhere else. They can join us if they want, but we're not going to go in there with them.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Twilight
Where have I said all Southerners and all rural people are racists? The topic is not about racism. It is about Moore supporters. What I am saying is Moore's support is stronger in rural Alabama than in urban areas of Alabama. I am also saying in rural Alabama there is a strong distrust among his supporters of anyone from the outside trying to engage them.
I want to see him defeated. I think it can be done if Democrats can get out the vote in the urban areas and motivate the minorities to vote for Jones--and by "minorities" I mean more than a racial vote.
I think once Moore is defeated maybe his supporters will take their blinders off and re-examine their positions.
A point should be made that in the Deep South it is not unusual for early teens to be married. While officially, a person has to be 18 to give consent, a judge can allow for 14-year-olds to be married. I believe this is an underlying attitude being displayed among Moore supporters too.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I thought this thread was about fundamentalist Christians but it didn't take long to turn into articles and posts stating that all Southerners and all rural people are ignorant racists.
What people write says as much about them as the writings say about the subject. There are nuanced posts that do not denegrate people. There are other posts that replace nuanced thinking with prejudices displayed for all to read.
Gramps, I didn't read your posts as making harsh generalizations. I do read them as political statements, but I believe that was your intention.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
quote:
Gramps, I didn't read your posts as making harsh generalizations. I do read them as political statements, but I believe that was your intention.
I am confused, are you saying I was making a political statement or that I was intending to say all Southerners and all rural people are racist?
I compliment you if you were reading my mind and divinizing I was saying All Southerners and all rural people are racist. Simply put, I was only speaking of Moore supporters.
But to break down Twilights statement a little bit more
quote:
I thought this thread was about fundamentalist Christians but it didn't take long to turn into articles and posts stating that all Southerners and all rural people are ignorant racists.
I would agree that most of Moore's supporters come from a fundamentalist background. However, not all evangelicals are supporting him so I think that is an overgeneralization.
Second, Twilight thinks we are talking about all Southerners, no, we are talking about Alabamans, 26% of which are African American. Again, an overgeneralization.
Then too, 84% of all Alabamans have a high school degree, 23% have a bachelors degree, so not all rural Alabamans are ignorant.
I can't speak to the level of racism in Alabama, that is not the question of your original post. I am only speaking of Moore's supporters.
[ 27. November 2017, 02:33: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
Lets give Alabama voters the chance to express their choice in the ballot box before condemning them for electing Roy Moore. If they do elect him, have at it.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Lets give Alabama voters the chance to express their choice in the ballot box before condemning them for electing Roy Moore. If they do elect him, have at it.
They voted for Trump so I've already condemned them. Let's see if they redeem themselves, say rather.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
I have been astonished to see the right wing "family values" folk who came out of the woodwork to castigate the. Morals of any Democrat, abandoning those values, destroying their credibility and splitting the evangelical Movement over this.Abortion and gay marriage have become their idols. Funny thing, they haven't been effective in achieving their goals in over 30 years.of "values voting".
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Thank God we're not as party spirited as these 'publicans eh?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Tortuf--
What do you mean by "engaging"? And for what purpose?
IMVHO:
If you're specifically trying to make them see the light about Moore, I doubt that it will work. And approaching someone with that kind of purpose will probably put them off, and make them *less likely* to let go.
If you want to treat them well, show them Christian love, etc., then that can probably be done without bringing up Moore or politics at all. Just treat them decently, as you would anyone else.
If *they* bring it up, consider whether it's really worthwhile to have a discussion. If it is, then stay calm, listen to them, and state your own opinions simply.
FWIW, YMMV.
[ 27. November 2017, 09:33: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
GK, your point exactly. My reference to the Serenity Prayer above was a recognition of what you just posted. To be less opaque, the part about change what I can means me, not anything else.
Gramps, you read a lot more into my post than was there. OTOH, your follow up post was a classic example of what little Billy Shakespeare was getting at in Hamlet: The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Twilight
Where have I said all Southerners and all rural people are racists? The topic is not about racism. It is about Moore supporters. for Jones--and by "minorities" I mean more than a racial vote.
I wasn't directing my post at you, Gramps.
It was the link in Eutychus's post set me off, it was very sweeping about the implacable ignorance of rural people. NP's song lyrics were pretty harsh, too.
I've lived in Georgia, rural Ohio and West Virginia and the most racist, anti-gay, fear of immigrants, right wing rhetoric I've ever heard were on my short visits to Minnesota. So, when someone pretends that the sort of thinking in Roy Moore's supporters, only exists in the south, I wonder if they've been wearing ear plugs.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
They're Neil Young's lyrics. They respond in part to using Christianity to justify racism and segregation. If you listen to the lyrics of "Sweet Home Alabama", Leonard Skynyrd specifically names Neil Young, responding to this song. Leonard Skynyrd has the better tune, Young has the better lyrics.
When they mask the brutality of racism or 32 year olds having sex with 14 year olds with Christianity, worry about harshness and hurt feelings aren't the priority. It's a morally bankrupt culture. They need to repent.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
Surely there must be pro-life candidates who aren't child molesters?
If you believe that abortion is morally equivalent to infanticide, and that electing pro-life politicians necessarily reduces the number of abortions, then I can see how your moral calculus might conclude that a pro-life child molester is preferable to a pro-choice candidate, if those are the only two options available. But surely they can't be? Surely there must be some mechanism whereby Alabama Republicans can deselect Mr Moore and replace him with an equally pro-life candidate who doesn't molest minors?
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Surely there must be pro-life candidates who aren't child molesters?
If you believe that abortion is morally equivalent to infanticide, and that electing pro-life politicians necessarily reduces the number of abortions, then I can see how your moral calculus might conclude that a pro-life child molester is preferable to a pro-choice candidate, if those are the only two options available.
I'm not sure you grasp the 'logic' of the American anti-abortion movement. The whole point is to spare its adherents from moral accountability and give them a false sense of heroism. As long as your opponents are involved in the worst possible evil (and for them abortion is defined as the worst possible evil) then anything else is 'good' by comparison. A child molester is one of the 'good guys' if he also favors criminalizing abortion.
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
But surely they can't be? Surely there must be some mechanism whereby Alabama Republicans can deselect Mr Moore and replace him with an equally pro-life candidate who doesn't molest minors?
That mechanism was the Republican primary. The voters of Alabama decided to reject Luther Strange in favor of Roy Moore.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
In fairness, the primary took place before Moore's true sleaziness was disclosed. If it had all come out sooner, Strange might now be on the ballot today.
The election is two weeks from today. That's plenty of time for more twists and turns. No emoticon for popcorn, disappointing.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I'm not sure you grasp the 'logic' of the American anti-abortion movement. The whole point is to spare its adherents from moral accountability and give them a false sense of heroism. As long as your opponents are involved in the worst possible evil (and for them abortion is defined as the worst possible evil) then anything else is 'good' by comparison. A child molester is one of the 'good guys' if he also favors criminalizing abortion.
Um, that seems to be repeating exactly what I said in the bit you quoted.
quote:
That mechanism was the Republican primary. The voters of Alabama decided to reject Luther Strange in favor of Roy Moore.
OK but is there no mechanism whereby the party could withdraw the whip? (I'm thinking of the London mayoral elections some years ago where the Tories un-endorsed Jeffrey Archer after a bunch of perjury allegations.) I suppose if that happened it would now be too late to put up a replacement Republican.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Surely there must be pro-life candidates who aren't child molesters?
If you believe that abortion is morally equivalent to infanticide, and that electing pro-life politicians necessarily reduces the number of abortions, then I can see how your moral calculus might conclude that a pro-life child molester is preferable to a pro-choice candidate, if those are the only two options available.
This sort of reasoning got the army to support Hitler in 1933. There's no sane moral calculus involved.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It's tribal. Best left alone. Stand with the victims. You know the drill. There is no hope in these situations. Apart from the wisest thing.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
OK but is there no mechanism whereby the party could withdraw the whip?
Only if Moore withdraws, becomes incapacitated or dies.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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LutheranChik
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# 9826
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Posted
While They're admittedly just a subgroup of conservative Evangelics, keep in mind that there are some who approve of/encourage marriages between teen girls and older men because of their obsession with female " purity." Which IMHO is simply a justification for these lecherous old goats to get off deflowering virgins...but it all sounds more highminded if you cite Bible stories and appeal to Jesus (?) for approval.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
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Posted
I don't know any Roy Moore supporters, but can see zero point in engaging them if I did.
If someone is prepared to support a guy who's been thrown out of his judgeship twice, and now appears to have posed a threat to barely-post-pubescent girls, they're too far gone for me to reach them. There are better uses for my time and energy.
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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
Posts: 374 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
In fairness, the primary took place before Moore's true sleaziness was disclosed. If it had all come out sooner, Strange might now be on the ballot today.
...
But it WAS known that Moore had defied court orders TWICE. Not the sort of thing judges are supposed to do. In terms of his role as a (future) senator, that's actually more damning, IMHO, than his skeezy "dating".
And I'd just like to give a shout-out to the Mall-cops, who apparently were the only people in the entire fucking state of Alabama who spotted this predator and did what they could to stop him.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
But it WAS known that Moore had defied court orders TWICE. Not the sort of thing judges are supposed to do.
He defied them in the name of God and in the direction his supporters prefer. It is only wrong if you are a Godless Heathen Atheist® who is trying to destroy America and sell it out to the commies. But not in the good way, like the Cheeto did.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I thought this thread was about fundamentalist Christians but it didn't take long to turn into articles and posts stating that all Southerners and all rural people are ignorant racists.
Are you suggesting it is prejudicial to imply all Southerners or rural people are ignorant racists, but it's OK to say that about Christian fundamentalists? Must be an irregular verb.
[ 30. November 2017, 15:42: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
None of this is about "all southerners". The only people who can vote for Moore are in Alabama. No one else's opinion matters.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I thought this thread was about fundamentalist Christians but it didn't take long to turn into articles and posts stating that all Southerners and all rural people are ignorant racists.
Are you suggesting it is prejudicial to imply all Southerners or rural people are ignorant racists, but it's OK to say that about Christian fundamentalists? Must be an irregular verb.
OK, Not all fundies are racist and not all Southern Americans are. BUT both those are factors in several problems. Because of slavery, the American Civil War and its aftermath, racism is a bit more enculturated in the South. And fundamentalism doesn't encourage questioning or nuance.
So whilst it is inaccurate to paint all of any group with the same brush, it is also inaccurate to ignore the influence of culture on the people who are in it.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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