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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Is Our Eschatology Pathological?
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LutheranChik
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# 9826
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Posted
The current uproar overl the Tangerine Tweetmeister's moving of the US Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem -- a move most certainly done at the prompting of conservative Evangelicals in the GOP, got me thinking about all those cheering on a World War III /Armageddon that would, they think,herald the Second Coming of Christ.
Is there something inherently pathological in Christian eschatology? This idea of a final conflict between good and evil? I find myself personally wondering if it is a death wish writ large, that it feeds both quietism and revenge fantasies, and that it is something that is going to ultimately destroy the planet. What is good or Christlike about any of that?
[ 07. December 2017, 18:44: Message edited by: LutheranChik ]
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Simul iustus et peccator
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
It alwasy strikes me that it is primarily gnostic, a rejection of the value of this world against the value of the next.
The same type of apocalyptic thinking drives some in the Brexit debate - the EU is the multi-headed beast from Revelation (pace The Late Great Planet Earth).
Because, of course, those who are Christians* will be saved, and those who are not will suffer. Which gives some of them a real hard-on. So yes, it is pathalogical. And it is most clearly represented in Trump, because it is about the "right" getting what they want, and sod anyone else.
*White, Evangelical, Gay-hating, patriarchal Bible-Believing of course.
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W Hyatt
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# 14250
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Posted
It seems to me that such thinking is based on the assumption that since Armageddon is supposed to occur before the Second Coming then Armageddon will somehow cause the Second Coming, which seems like a highly dubious assumption to make.
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
It's basically the Christian version of ISIS wanting to provoke the Final War that will hasten the return of the Messiah.
Frankly, I think it deserves the same response we gave ISIS as well.
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Hail Gallaxhar
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
It seems to me that such thinking is based on the assumption that since Armageddon is supposed to occur before the Second Coming then Armageddon will somehow cause the Second Coming, which seems like a highly dubious assumption to make.
One piece missing from your puzzle is that in dispensationalist theology, which oddly enough has infected some charismatic circles despite originally being cessationist, the Rapture happens before Armageddon, so you don't get to have to endure all that Tribulation stuff.
Further reading here ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
(While Trump's Jerusalem pronouncements will no doubt have delighted proponents of this worldview, I'm not sure they are primarily fuelled by the latter).
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Honest Ron Bacardi
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# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
The current uproar overl the Tangerine Tweetmeister's moving of the US Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem -- a move most certainly done at the prompting of conservative Evangelicals in the GOP, got me thinking about all those cheering on a World War III /Armageddon that would, they think,herald the Second Coming of Christ.
Is there something inherently pathological in Christian eschatology? This idea of a final conflict between good and evil? I find myself personally wondering if it is a death wish writ large, that it feeds both quietism and revenge fantasies, and that it is something that is going to ultimately destroy the planet. What is good or Christlike about any of that?
Some forms of eschatology are indeed pathological IMHO. The question though is to what extent they are orthodox.
The problem is that most of the biblical references are within passages that are apocalyptic in genre. What you make of them depends on how you interpret that genre.
However, condemning all eschatologies on the basis of a 20th century reading of apocalyptic as if it were literal-historic sounds like several steps too far to me.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
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Steve Langton
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# 17601
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Posted
but of course the question is whether 'Armageddon' will be a conventional 'war with physical weapons'? Paul tells us quite explicitly that our warfare is not with weapons, and in the depiction of Armageddon the great 'weapon of mass destruction' which is unleashed on evil is a sword from the mouth of 'the Word of God' ie Jesus. Which has me thinking in terms of the sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God.
The 'pathology' is in nationalism and worldliness, not in the eschatology itself.
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
The OP talks about "our eschatology" - not all eschatologies.
There are interpretations of the apocalyptic that are not pathological.
And the danger from those who are trying to drive events is that they may well drive certain events, without actualy forcing Gods hand. Because I think he is bigger than that. All they will achieve is chaos, death and suffering.
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
“Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided.” Barack Obama 2008 campaign speech.
Bill Clinton and George W Bush were also in favour of moving the Embassy. All Donald Trump has done is to implement what was already the policy of both Republicans and Democrat. We can't fault him on this unless we tar them all with the same brush.
Sorry about that.
Seems to put a bit of a downer on the idea that American foreign policy is being driven by dispensationalists.
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Steve Langton
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# 17601
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Posted
by Schroedinger's Cat
quote:
The OP talks about "our eschatology" - not all eschatologies.
There are interpretations of the apocalyptic that are not pathological.
Not arguing with you really. Just making the point that a lot of American eschatology, and the Irvingite/Darbyite interpretations it derived from, was the wrong kind of 'literal'. It ignored the idea that Jesus' kingdom is 'not of this world', not the kind of kingdom that swords or guns or nukes can make.
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Steve Langton
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# 17601
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Posted
by balaam
quote:
Seems to put a bit of a downer on the idea that American foreign policy is being driven by dispensationalists.
I don't think it is being 'driven by dispensationalists' in great detail - very few can follow that bewildering notion in great depth - but it is being too much driven by an incoherent idea that the fate of the this-worldly kingdom/nation of Israel is somehow important to eschatology, and that supporting that interpretation of Israel is a proper goal.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's basically the Christian version of ISIS wanting to provoke the Final War that will hasten the return of the Messiah.
Frankly, I think it deserves the same response we gave ISIS as well.
You mean we should invade the USA, 'liberate' it and turn it into a Balkanised basket case of violent statelets that fight each other for the control of scarce resources?
I mean, okay, but how do we tell the good refugees from the bad ones?
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Kwesi
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# 10274
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Posted
At least in the US we know who the Beast is.
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
I was a fanatic post-tribulation pre-millennialist for 30 years. And yeah, it was pathological. Sick. I now don't believe a word of it, or rather I believe all of it as apocalyptic genre literature entirely explicable by its historical context with any apparent prophetic fulfilment just a matter of chance or the way the wind was blowing, if not redaction after the event.
The Parousia is part of that.
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Love wins
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
by balaam
quote:
Seems to put a bit of a downer on the idea that American foreign policy is being driven by dispensationalists.
I don't think it is being 'driven by dispensationalists' in great detail - very few can follow that bewildering notion in great depth - but it is being too much driven by an incoherent idea that the fate of the this-worldly kingdom/nation of Israel is somehow important to eschatology, and that supporting that interpretation of Israel is a proper goal.
Don't agree.
We need to find a reason that would be attractive to Republicans and Democrats.
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
What verges on the "pathological" is the self-righteous obsession of many on the Ship to seize any opportunity, however tenuous, to signal their moral superiority to evangelicals.
For a start, only some evangelicals go along with dispensational premillenialism.
And secondly eschatology, involving a belief in Christ's return and a final judgement, is taught in the NT and the creeds, and is common to all the traditions of Christian orthodoxy.
Even after making hermeneutical and exegetical allowance for the graphic apocalyptic nature of the scriptural language used to describe it, the fact remains that something fairly horrific and cataclysmic is being conveyed.
In other words, eschatology is just one element in the theodicean problem of Christianity in general, and to try to contain it within current American politics is risibly parochial.
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
by balaam
quote:
We need to find a reason that would be attractive to Republicans and Democrats.
Well, by UK standards Republicans and Democrats are not 'Left v Right' politics but effectively degrees of right-wing-ism; and they pretty much share religious ideas including the supposed special divine favour for America.
If you think biblical prophecy foretells the return of the Jews to Israel in the last days, and you think God will bless those who help that, but curse those who hinder, then you might well think that supporting Israel and, for example, Jerusalem as Israel's capital, would benefit the USA. Sincerely or not - but certainly confusedly - Trump appears to be playing to that.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
For a start, only some evangelicals go along with dispensational premillenialism.
Yes, but all the noise is coming from the shallow end of the pool.
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
And secondly eschatology, involving a belief in Christ's return and a final judgement, is taught in the NT and the creeds, and is common to all the traditions of Christian orthodoxy.
Even after making hermeneutical and exegetical allowance for the graphic apocalyptic nature of the scriptural language used to describe it, the fact remains that something fairly horrific and cataclysmic is being conveyed.
No argument from me. I don't have a problem with the idea that the End Times won't be all fun and games, but I do have a problem with people who take it upon themselves to try to make the End Times come as soon as possible.
Christ will come again in His own good time. It's not our job to force His hand or speed up the process, especially when doing so causes untold misery to millions of people.
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Hail Gallaxhar
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
What verges on the "pathological" is the self-righteous obsession of many on the Ship to seize any opportunity, however tenuous, to signal their moral superiority to evangelicals.
For a start, only some evangelicals go along with dispensational premillenialism.
Right. Which is why this evangelical was not at all concerned or offended by this thread-- which never named any particular Christian group, but simply described a particular eschatology which I also find problematic ("pathological" may be a bit hyperbolic, but time will tell).
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
And secondly eschatology, involving a belief in Christ's return and a final judgement, is taught in the NT and the creeds, and is common to all the traditions of Christian orthodoxy.
Even after making hermeneutical and exegetical allowance for the graphic apocalyptic nature of the scriptural language used to describe it, the fact remains that something fairly horrific and cataclysmic is being conveyed..
But the "renewal of heaven and earth"-- hope-- is also a biblical tradition throughout Christianity.
I read the "horrific and cataclysmic" as descriptive of "the way things are". We can all list the examples of the horrific and cataclysmic realities, both man-made and natural, which have occurred throughout history and continue to this day. That is, as you noted, the essence of the problem of theodicy (I could cycle out my standard Open Theism answer but that's grist for another thread). But what I hear John and Daniel and others saying is "this is the way things are. And this is the way things will be-- up until the final Kingdom".
But then we also have Rev. 21 and 22. We have promises of hope. We have promises of a future that is not horrific and cataclysmic. We have a promise that things will one day be set right.
As others have noted, there's a huge difference between saying "life has always contained the horrific and cataclysmic so we should not be surprised that suffering exists" and actively promoting those horrific and cataclysmic events which Scripture seems to me to be saying are not at all the "way things are supposed to be" but rather among those things Jesus is coming to set right.
As a quasi-Pentecostal evangelical, I do believe there is a spiritual battle going on. But I'm not at all sure that the ones who are using this apocalyptic imagery & talking about this spiritual battle the most here in the US are fighting on the side of Christ.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
...only some evangelicals go along with dispensational premillenialism.
And secondly eschatology, involving a belief in Christ's return and a final judgement, is taught in the NT and the creeds, and is common to all the traditions of Christian orthodoxy.
Even after making hermeneutical and exegetical allowance for the graphic apocalyptic nature of the scriptural language used to describe it, the fact remains that something fairly horrific and cataclysmic is being conveyed.
In other words, eschatology is just one element in the theodicean problem of Christianity in general...
Ignoring the paranoid straw man, as has been said many times, 'My kingdom is not of this world.', so neither is eschatology including the Parousia. Horrific and cataclysmic is conveyed, beautifully, in the works of John Martin and Gustave Doré, inspired by apocalyptic, fulfilled over and over again in history and geology. To believe that these icons we hold up, artistically mirroring the material world, reflect spiritual realities is... anything but rational and leads to worse pathology.
[ 08. December 2017, 16:54: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
After the catastrophe of WW1 and the Spanish Flu there was a body of opinion which believed the Second Coming was imminent. The only thing which came was another war.
Then we had this thing called The Future. Bright, hopeful and boding well for all. Something appears to have stolen that in recent decades, so now it is Going forward . Short term pursuit of happiness and indulgence. Pathological symptoms appear to be arising from this by default. I wish it were not so but it is though humanity is trapped in an unstoppable cycle.
Irrationally is part of human psyche. Maybe it is exploited by charismatic Leaders, maybe it inevitably finds it's own way.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
The current uproar overl the Tangerine Tweetmeister's moving of the US Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem -- a move most certainly done at the prompting of conservative Evangelicals in the GOP, got me thinking about all those cheering on a World War III /Armageddon that would, they think,herald the Second Coming of Christ.
Yes, I think some of 'our' eschatology is pathological - and while millennial dispensationalism isn't big in The Ship, it's large in some constituencies - including conservative American evangelicals.
I think a lot of eschatology ends up being its own theology of glory (in the sense Luther meant), it becomes and attempt to peer behind the curtain at the secret things of God.
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Which is why this evangelical was not at all concerned or offended by this thread-- which never named any particular Christian group
I think you are being a trifle disingenuous.
Call me a trifle paranoid, but given that dispensational premillenialists are all evangelicals, I smell a synecdochical rat.
quote:
But the "renewal of heaven and earth"-- hope-- is also a biblical tradition throughout Christianity.
It is true that NT eschatology also contains a final, perfect, eternal Kingdom, but that does not necessarily solve the theodicean dilemma.
The classic statement of the case against eventual bliss's justifying present suffering is made by Ivan in his debate with Alyosha in Dostoevsky's The Brothers Karamzov, and is based on the torture of children.
quote:
As others have noted, there's a huge difference between saying "life has always contained the horrific and cataclysmic so we should not be surprised that suffering exists" and actively promoting those horrific and cataclysmic events
It's true that the NT does not teach that we should give history a shove along, and lend eschatology a helping hand, but that does not alter the fact that the NT seems to teach some sort of impending appalling scenario eventually, no matter what we do or refrain from doing.
[ 08. December 2017, 22:38: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]
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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349
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Posted
In seminary, one mentor told me that John's gospel has a realized eschatology, that for John, Jesus will not visibly return, but rather, returns spiritually in the witness and work of the church.
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Steve Langton
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# 17601
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Posted
The 'premillennial dispensationalist' eschatology is somewhat pathological....
It goes back to the post-Reformation confusion; the medieval RCC had signally failed to live up to the idea of God's kingdom on earth, and alternatives were sought. In Scotland one alternative had gained ground - 'post-millennialism'. In effect, the idea that the millenium was still future, hadn't started yet, and that Jesus' 'Second Coming' would be at the end of that thousand years.
Such an idea of course deprived the Second Coming of any immediate relevance, and biblical texts about expecting the return were deprived of weight. In the late 18th/early 19th century, this was noticed by Church of Scotland minister Edward Irving, who began preaching instead the idea of an imminent Second Advent with the Millennium as God's earthly kingdom to follow. This teaching caught on, and soon there were 'Prophetic Conferences' investigating the biblical prophecies.
In a degree of over-reaction against the previous post-millennialism and its very much deferred hope, Irving and his followers had preached that you should expect Jesus' return more-or-less "any second now". But as the prophetic conferences went on, rightly wrongly or just confusedly they threw up a lot of prophecies which didn't seem to have been fulfilled yet - but didn't seem to belong at all in the Millennium after the Advent. What were they to do with these prophecies?
They could have adopted the kind of answer suggested by Paul in II Thess 2 - addressed to people who were similarly over-enthusiastic in their expectations. In effect, there are prophecies yet to be fulfilled and until you see those fulfilments, stop panicking, Unfortunately Irving's followers just couldn't accept that, they were just too committed to the 'any-second-now' return of Jesus - they would have been staggered by the idea that two centuries after them we are still waiting....
Another aspect of Irving's teaching had been an attempt to revive charismatic gifts, particularly tongues and prophecy. It seems to have been words of some of the 'prophets', worked out in more coherent form by John Nelson Darby, a leader of the early 'Brethren' and eventually of what would become the 'Exclusive Brethren' which produced an apparent answer to this unfulfilled prophecy dilemma.
Jesus' Return would not be 'the end' - he would return to rescue his people who would be safe while the world went through some years of 'Tribulation' during which those prophecies would be fulfilled; and only at the end of the Tribulation would Jesus return, now with the church, to defeat the Antichrist and start the earthly millennium.
So that huge edifice, which eventually rather takes over the whole Bible, was built on the unwillingness of Irving's followers to accept that they could expect the Return of Jesus without necessarily expecting it 'any second now'.
In this scheme the Jews had a place; they would during the Tribulation finally accept Jesus as Messiah. In the early versions they would return to Israel at this point - a version that had to be revised in the year of my birth, 1948....
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Steve Langton: The 'premillennial dispensationalist' eschatology is somewhat pathological...
As a pre millennial dispensationalist, I would concede a lot of what you state here Steve.
Darby is said to have come to his conclusions about the rapture that precedes the second coming during a period of reflection following a riding accident though he certainly would have been aware of the Irvingites.
However, pathological?
A pre trib rapture is certainly not standard fare in most churches. However, 1 Corinthians 15 does say
"We shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet, for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable and we shall be changed "
This could well suggest a rapture point of the living and the dead in Christ.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
by Jamat
quote:
though he certainly would have been aware of the Irvingites.
As I understand it Darby was not just 'aware of the Irvingites' but was a major player in those discussions and conferences which went on all over the UK to explore Irving's idea.
I fully accept the kind of 'rapture' described in I Cor 15; but NOT as the kind of 'pre-tribulation' event imagined in the 'Left Behind' books and similar portrayals. We will on the last day be caught up/raptured to be with the Lord, to attend him as he then comes in judgement on the lost.
For purposes of this thread I'm more concerned with the implications about Israel which are having terrible real world consequences.
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
In seminary, one mentor told me that John's gospel has a realized eschatology, that for John, Jesus will not visibly return, but rather, returns spiritually in the witness and work of the church.
Which can be fitted in with Bultmann's statement that Jesus did not experience a literal resurrection, but "rose into the kerygma".
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
Dispensationalist premillenialism can be understood as an elaborate and overdetermined scheme of eschatology, but at a more basic level, it is an attempt at a consistently literalist hermeneutic (ie Israel means Israel, the church means the church, etc) summed up in the precept "If the plain sense makes common sense, seek no other sense".
Secondly, pro-Israel Christians are often (sincerely or otherwise) accused of being dispensationalists, but it is quite possible to reject dispensationalism, while at the same time supporting Israel's historical and moral right to existence and self-defence; admiring its attempt to maintain liberal and civilised values while fighting for its life in a region of barbarism; and deploring the arrogance and judgementalism of pharisaical Westerners who believe they have the right - from a safe distance - to tell it to commit national suicide.
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Jamat
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# 11621
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Posted
I quote:
Steve Langton: I fully accept the kind of 'rapture' described in I Cor 15; but NOT as the kind of 'pre-tribulation' event imagined in the 'Left Behind' books and similar portrayals
You then have a problem with what to do with 1 Cor15.
If you say that it occurs at the second coming then you have to reconcile the contradictory accounts of this event.
If you link it to John 14, " I will come again and receive you unto myself" then it works as a rapture event separate from the "Every eye shall see him" event in Matt 24 that is the terrifying scenario where cataclysmic events have destroyed most of civilisation and people are trying to hide from his presence at his coming that is primarily for judgement.
The Left Behind books read poorly. It is a pity they could not get a decent writer involved. I read the first one and thought that as literature it was appalling. The plot and characterisation were so improbable. As to essentials,however, the disappearance of a billion or so people will create huge panic and demand explanations. Satan's man can then fill the gap.
" I know what happened. Don't worry, we'll get them back!"
The left behind books do make the assumption that the rapture begins the 70th week of Daniel. This might not be the case since scripture says that it begins not with the rapture, but with a covenant between the antichrist and natural Israel see Dan 9:27
If you take prophecy seriously, then there has to be a natural Israel for there to be a second coming at all. If Satan can destroy the Jewish people group, he extends his own tenure and nullifies the patriarchal covenants. He makes God a liar. Is there any other possible explanation for the ongoing irrational international antisemitism we consistently witness through history to the present?
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Whatever the explanation is, this ten-page thread from last year demonstrates to my satisfaction that it isn't the entirely novel idea (historically speaking) of a two-stage parousia coupled with the highly doctrinally problematic idea of entirely separate categories of believer (eg the Church and Israel, not to mention those saved by 144,000 Jewish evangelists after the rapture in your scheme of things), and I'm not about to hash this all out here again.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
As others have noted, there's a huge difference between saying "life has always contained the horrific and cataclysmic so we should not be surprised that suffering exists" and actively promoting those horrific and cataclysmic events which Scripture seems to me to be saying are not at all the "way things are supposed to be" but rather among those things Jesus is coming to set right.
When I moved in pre-trib circles, trying to give God a helping hand was seen as a bad thing.
The standard schema was that at some point in the future America would stop supporting the State of Israel, and at that moment all its Arab neighbours would see their chance and attack, thus precipitating the Battle of Armageddon.
For us it was a moral imperative that the State of Israel should be supported, which would logically defer Armageddon. The idea that Mr Trump is precipitating the End Times by recognising Jerusalem is an entirely new one to me, and not a good development.
[ 10. December 2017, 08:08: Message edited by: Ricardus ]
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Golden Key
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# 1468
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Posted
Jamat--
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
If Satan can destroy the Jewish people group, he extends his own tenure and nullifies the patriarchal covenants. He makes God a liar. Is there any other possible explanation for the ongoing irrational international antisemitism we consistently witness through history to the present?
Because, through most of history, the Jewish people have lived in conditions where they were Other?
And when any of them happened to flourish, some Gentiles were jealous, blaming Jews for the Gentiles' own difficulties, and spinning conspiracy theories that the Jewish people secretly controlled the world?
This is all like some of the anti-immigrant feelings today. And, given the way the Jewish people have moved around (voluntarily or not), they were immigrants. Even when they'd been in a particular place for generations.
And blaming them for the crucifixion?
[ 10. December 2017, 09:58: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Whatever the explanation is, this ten-page thread from last year demonstrates to my satisfaction that it isn't the entirely novel idea (historically speaking) of a two-stage parousia coupled with the highly doctrinally problematic idea of entirely separate categories of believer (eg the Church and Israel, not to mention those saved by 144,000 Jewish evangelists after the rapture in your scheme of things), and I'm not about to hash this all out here again.
With you on this - I also don't want to rehash that whole thread. And as I pointed out earlier, few of those involved actually have detailed knowledge anyway. The trouble is that there's a rather incoherent idea out there that Israel in the Promised Land is part of the Last Days thing and that somehow Christians - and so 'godly nations' like the USA - are obligated to support Israel come what may.
But Jamat - where in I Cor 15 is there anything about this 'last trumpet call' being only a temporary 'Rapture' with seven years tribulation and a whole millennium still to follow? If anything surely the reverse, Paul is emphatically talking about THE END....
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Whatever the explanation is, this ten-page thread from last year demonstrates to my satisfaction that it isn't the entirely novel idea (historically speaking) of a two-stage parousia coupled with the highly doctrinally problematic idea of entirely separate categories of believer (eg the Church and Israel, not to mention those saved boy 144,000 Jewish evangelists after the rapture in your scheme of things), and I'm not about to hash this all out here again.
With you on this - I also don't want to rehash that whole thread. And as I pointed out earlier, few of those involved actually have detailed knowledge anyway. The trouble is that there's a rather incoherent idea out there that Israel in the Promised Land is part of the Last Days thing and that somehow Christians - and so 'godly nations' like the USA - are obligated to support Israel come what may.
But Jamat - where in I Cor 15 is there anything about this 'last trumpet call' being only a temporary 'Rapture' with seven years tribulation and a whole millennium still to follow? If anything surely the reverse, Paul is emphatically talking about THE END....
Well nowhere unless you link, 1Cor 15, John 14 and 1The4:16. It is admittedly all inference and induction based on the need to try and find clarity in what is an exegetical minefield..but still, I think, worth considering. Walvoord himself admitted there was no specific verse to teach a pre trib rapture, but you don't have that to teach the trinity concept either.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
No, but traditional Christianity as a whole teaches the Trinity. Dispensationalism and the pre-Trib Rapture is a pious opinion at best.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
No, but traditional Christianity as a whole teaches the Trinity. Dispensationalism and the pre-Trib Rapture is a pious opinion at best.
An opinion based very concretely in a wide array of scriptural support.
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Indeed yes.
Which rather begs the question, doesn't it, as to why Dispensationalism as a schema hasn't been as universally adopted or why we all had to wait until the 19th century before someone spotted what everyone had been missing up until that point ...
Unless we include the Jesuit Manuel Lacunza and start picking selective quotes from some of the Fathers ...
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Indeed yes.
Which rather begs the question, doesn't it, as to why Dispensationalism as a schema hasn't been as universally adopted or why we all had to wait until the 19th century before someone spotted what everyone had been missing up until that point ...
Unless we include the Jesuit Manuel Lacunza and start picking selective quotes from some of the Fathers ...
So we are back to the old chestnut of why did it take till 1930 for anyone to get it?
The speculations are endless. The real issue though, is is it what scripture indicates?
There are 2 platforms pre-trib dispensationalism rests on.
The first is that you cannot assign OT references to Israel, willynilly to the church. National Israel is a separate entity that God has made covenant promises to.
The second, is that the teachings of the NT on the second coming are so disparate, that one can only make sense of them if there are in fact 2 second comings for separate purposes.
The next question is, why did God make it all so difficult to grasp?
Well, that I do not know but there is precedent.
The first coming of the Christ was only grasped as to its purpose in hindsight. The Jewish leaders rejected his claims for the same reason Jews do today, viz:
"If you are the king, then where is the kingdom?"
The answer to that is in the scenario of 'one Messiah with 2 comings.'
My point?
What if the second coming also has two aspects?
The rapture where he comes as promised for his church and
The Armageddon scenario where he comes to rescue Israel from destruction?
Does scripture teach this?
[ 12. December 2017, 02:40: Message edited by: Jamat ]
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
No.
[ETA: tl;dr version: No.]
[ 12. December 2017, 05:41: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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