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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Why believe?
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Unum Solum
Shipmate
# 18904
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Posted
I am not sure how to phrase what I am trying to ask so apologies first up and hopefully you can find a better way and hence a better answer. I am definitely not asking “who do you believe’ - I don’t think.
I can love my neighbour as myself, but accept I don’t do it very well. I am also making the assumption that all the major religions and Buddhism also make compassion and active caring for others a major teaching for adherents. So if I attempt to conduct myself in this manner is there any point in undergoing the challenge, pain, frustration, in trying to believe in God (the ultimate mystery)? Jesus basically boiled the rules down for his followers to the 2 great commandments, the first cannot be unless the second is also adhered to. I don’t know about other religions or Buddhism as to how key (trying) loving your neighbor is to identifying with that belief system.
As an addendum I find the concept of believing in God/Jesus so that I get to heaven etc problematic. I think if something is real then it can be believed, the consequences of such belief are a whole other matter.
Not sue what I am really asking - maybe its ‘why cant I escape the need to believe in God and just walk away and try and be a good and caring person?
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I will not say do not weep for not all tears are an evil. - Gandalf
Posts: 53 | From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Jan 2018
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Jesus boiled it down to two great commandments, but the first still presupposes the existence of God.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Unum Solum
Maybe it's the power of the Jesus-story that appeals to you? Maybe its the presence of the Christian community that supports you as you try to embody those truths that you all share in common? Maybe it's the call of your fathers and the pull of your culture? Maybe a mixture of all of them, plus many other things?
It's not clear if your post springs out of a sense of religious entrapment, or whether you just want to discuss the appeal of Christianity in general. The former may require you to reveal more about your personal journey so we can understand where your unease with Christianity lies. The latter invites a discussion about the tenacity of religious faith throughout history, and what Christianity in particular brings to the table.
OTOH, Christianity is eroding in many parts of the Western world. There are a lot of people who no longer see a reason to 'believe'. Apart from the obvious theological problems with this situation, we might also ask whether the 'death of God' has had and/or will have detrimental effects on the psychological and moral well-being of our civilization. The idea that the Judeo-Christian sensibility is now irrelevant to modern society is by no means a foregone conclusion....
[ 20. January 2018, 00:38: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Welcome! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Why not start with the bits you *do* get? (Loving your neighbor, etc.) You can explore the God stuff as you go along, when you feel up to it.
IMHO, you don't necessarily have to take on everything at once.
FWIW, YMMV.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
Welcome Unum Solum.
Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength and mind.
Love your neighbour as yourself.
I love these commandments.
For me they are freeing.
With My heart, My strength, My soul and My mind, I can love the Lord. In my capacity- and however that looks at a given moment. Who I am at any given time is enough.
And I am called to love myself- and out of that, my love for neighbour flows. Who I am at any given time is enough.
I see this as promise- and deliverance from having to strive for perfection.
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
Posts: 3511 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Unum Solum
Shipmate
# 18904
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Jesus boiled it down to two great commandments, but the first still presupposes the existence of God.
But does the second require the first as it seems to me to be something that is ‘good’ (whatever good means), and existence (another loaded word) would be better for all if adhered to.
Or does belief/submission of will to God (the Biblical one) mean that we have divine help in carrying out the second command in a manner and extent that would not be possible alone? The indwelling Spirit enabling us beyond our mere mortal ability.
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I will not say do not weep for not all tears are an evil. - Gandalf
Posts: 53 | From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Jan 2018
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Unum Solum
Shipmate
# 18904
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Unum Solum
..........
It's not clear if your post springs out of a sense of religious entrapment,
......
I feel trapped by God. Growing up in a Western culture means believing in God means believing and accepting Jesus (yes I know Jesus is God - well I don’t really know). Jesus was around 2000 years ago, my only real way of finding out about him is through Scripture the validity and meaning of which seems to be increasingly being questioned by progressive scholars. Not doubting Scripture but reshaping our understanding of it, and in doing so scrambling my brain as to what Jesus said in the red letter parts of my Bible. If I am totally confused about what He said then I am confused about Him, and as a result messed up in my understanding of God - generally F&$)ed Up!
Messed up to the point of ‘Why say I believe in anything’, when it makes no difference to others but the doing does. Yet I want to believe and I don’t know why I want to believe, it’s certainly not because I care what others might think of me one way or the other. It’s much deeper than that, it’s 3am in the morning caring.
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I will not say do not weep for not all tears are an evil. - Gandalf
Posts: 53 | From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Jan 2018
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Unum Solum:
I feel trapped by God.
So, why? IMO, no one should feel trapped by their religion or philosophy. I think combining SvitlanaV2's and Golden Key's advice is a good beginning.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Unum Solum
Shipmate
# 18904
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Unum Solum:
I feel trapped by God.
So, why? IMO, no one should feel trapped by their religion or philosophy. I think combining SvitlanaV2's and Golden Key's advice is a good beginning.
I understand why you would ask that question. The thing is I don’t feel trapped by a religion or a philosophy but by a “binding” of my spirit, my ‘self’ to something (someone) that is Other.. Sorry I don’t know how to describe it as words seem inadequate. I am free to walk away whenever I want but am always conscious somehow that it is a one way movement, the Other is always present.
As a Bhuddist maybe you would describe it as an awareness subconsciously of the Oneness of all things? Ranting and raving and rejecting never ultimately creates that separation that in my dark moments I hope will bring me peace.
Isn’t there a saying “no where to run, no where to hide”
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I will not say do not weep for not all tears are an evil. - Gandalf
Posts: 53 | From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Jan 2018
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
But God should not feel "other". There are variations of Christianity that I feel do more harm than good to their adherents. Could it be the flavour, not the food, that you find unpalatable?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Unum Solum
Shipmate
# 18904
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Posted
lilBuddha is it reasonable to assume your Buddhist? If so can I ask not what you believe but why you choose to believe what you do, does it add something to your life, to who you are? Or is it a no brainer and to you what you believe “just is”, therefore it is not a conscious decision there is for you just no other choice.
Apologies if you don’t adhere to the Buddha”s philosophical teaching.
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I will not say do not weep for not all tears are an evil. - Gandalf
Posts: 53 | From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Jan 2018
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Unum solum
( I like the user name - I wish I'd been able to think of something instead of my two forenames!)
You ask, 'Why believe?' Well, there is no reason to do so as far as I'm concerned! I know what it is to believe in God - that was belief in God only, none of the other associated mystical doings or miracles was more than a moral teaching, but then I realised that I’d known for ages that there was no such thing as God, or any god/spirit/etc for that matter, and that all gods have been entirely human ideas.
Once this was clear and obvious to me, there could never be a return to a belief in an idea which requires 100% faith.
Even the always most interesting discussions here on SofF have not changed my mind, but have added much to my knowledge and understanding of others' beliefs.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
Messed up to the point of ‘Why say I believe in anything’, when it makes no difference to others but the doing does.
Hi
I think I have been where you are - perhaps I can briefly share something.
I ended up accepting that what I believe is at least as important as what I do - because it provides the direction and energy behind that doing. I don't mean this in a mystic sense - 'God moved me to buy fruit and fibre this week' - but in a plain old sense of everyday English.
Why do I will the'good' of others? What is that 'good' anyway? Where (if anywhere) does it come from? What if their 'good' competes with my own? I'm tired, can't I just be 'good' to myself?
Nothing in that para is about doing - yet - it's just a bunch of (in my view unavoidably religious in character) questions. I don't think any of them have a solid answer if you work from a set of materialist presuppositions - certainly no more solid (or wobbly) than if you start with the possibility of God. But 'loving the Lord' - that's like wanting, being impatient for, the Good, and knowing what it looks like. Or starting to know. We're impatient for Good sometimes - whenever we clutch our forehead at the latest mad shite in the paper and think 'why the F*** did they do it that way?'.
But without those questions, why be arsed? Stick the telly on, eat some shit, get pissed if it hurts. Well, that's what I do when I lose the thread, but then I seem to find it again, or it / He finds me.
[ 20. January 2018, 07:19: Message edited by: mark_in_manchester ]
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Unum Solum:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Unum Solum
..........
It's not clear if your post springs out of a sense of religious entrapment,
......
I feel trapped by God. Growing up in a Western culture means believing in God means believing and accepting Jesus (yes I know Jesus is God - well I don’t really know). Jesus was around 2000 years ago, my only real way of finding out about him is through Scripture the validity and meaning of which seems to be increasingly being questioned by progressive scholars. Not doubting Scripture but reshaping our understanding of it, and in doing so scrambling my brain as to what Jesus said in the red letter parts of my Bible. If I am totally confused about what He said then I am confused about Him, and as a result messed up in my understanding of God - generally F&$)ed Up!
Messed up to the point of ‘Why say I believe in anything’, when it makes no difference to others but the doing does. Yet I want to believe and I don’t know why I want to believe, it’s certainly not because I care what others might think of me one way or the other. It’s much deeper than that, it’s 3am in the morning caring.
I understand that many people who are going through theological training can be challenged by a radically different approach to scripture than what they were taught as a child. I didn't have this reaction because of the way in which I came to be at a theological school. I recall one teacher responding to this challenge by saying that she thought that the approach taught at my theological college lad to a more robust belief than the traditional approach to scripture. Whether that is true or not is not for me to say, never having set much store in the idea that the Bible is the literal word of God.
Scripture is not your only way of finding out about God, and it was not my way. My way was through a 12-step programme and asking myself questions prompted by the course, "Can I believe in a power greater than myself", and "Can I believe that such a power can restore me to sanity?" I've adapted those questions.
Once I really could say yes to both those questions, the questioning journey that flowed from belief began.
My way of finding out about God worked for me in my circumstances. I reckon there are many ways of finding out about God.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
OTOH, Christianity is eroding in many parts of the Western world. There are a lot of people who no longer see a reason to 'believe'. Apart from the obvious theological problems with this situation, …
I hope this will not count as a tangent, but can you say briefly what one or two of the theological problems are, please?
quote:
we might also ask whether the 'death of God' has had and/or will have detrimental effects on the psychological and moral well-being of our civilization. The idea that the Judeo-Christian sensibility is now irrelevant to modern society is by no means a foregone conclusion....
Agreed. Whatever change takes place ( which I would hope will be away from belief), it must take place gradually, with something firmly in place to provide the strength needed. I hope this would be a confidence in the fact that humans have thought and done it all always anyway without, in my opinion, any god/god/s.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Unum Solum:
I am not sure how to phrase what I am trying to ask so apologies first up and hopefully you can find a better way and hence a better answer. I am definitely not asking “who do you believe’ - I don’t think.
I can love my neighbour as myself, but accept I don’t do it very well. I am also making the assumption that all the major religions and Buddhism also make compassion and active caring for others a major teaching for adherents.
Do they all? I'm not sure that they do.
And, incidentally, why 'and Buddhism'? In world terms, Buddhism is hardly not a 'major religion'. quote:
So if I attempt to conduct myself in this manner is there any point in undergoing the challenge, pain, frustration, in trying to believe in God (the ultimate mystery)? Jesus basically boiled the rules down for his followers to the 2 great commandments, the first cannot be unless the second is also adhered to. I don’t know about other religions or Buddhism as to how key (trying) loving your neighbour is to identifying with that belief system.
As an addendum I find the concept of believing in God/Jesus so that I get to heaven etc problematic. I think if something is real then it can be believed, the consequences of such belief are a whole other matter.
Not sue what I am really asking - maybe its ‘why cant I escape the need to believe in God and just walk away and try and be a good and caring person?
But why bother? With no foundations underneath, why not just do what you like, what serves you?
Oddly, in the days when I didn't believe, I didn't have much of a problem explaining why I was selfish. What I found more of a problem explaining was why I found that sometimes spontaneously unselfish. It was where that came from that was more of a challenge to explain.
So if you say you can love your neighbour as yourself - though not very well - how? And why?
I've always found that a very difficult command even to attempt, much harder than just keeping a discipline.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Agreed. Whatever change takes place ( which I would hope will be away from belief), it must take place gradually, with something firmly in place to provide the strength needed. I hope this would be a confidence in the fact that humans have thought and done it all always anyway without, in my opinion, any god/god/s.
I find your militant and Evangelical vigour very offputting. I don't want to live in a world where people stop dreaming dreams about higher purposes, meaning and deities.
Your pseudo-scientific idealised future seems very grey to me.
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arse
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Because it is true. According to my understanding of truth.
Yes, I can be a good person without a faith. And - for me - it is critical that my faith (whatever it is) encouages me to be a good person.
But I believe because it is true.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
For me, faith of itself is nothing to do with ethics. I don't believe because it makes me a better person. I believe because my faith is an expression of my fundamental convictions about the nature and structure of the universe: that is it structured and held in being by love. I find that conviction most powerfully expressed in Christianity because of the trinity and the incarnation, which mean that divinity is intimately woven into the structure of being and has been given physical expression in time and space.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
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Posted
SusanDoris's point is an important one, I think. Whatever your views on the existence of God, it remains a fact that many people don't believe in God and haven't been brought up to do so. You can share your faith with others, but you can't expect them to follow your ideals by appealing to a common religious belief.
I'm not sure where I'm going with this - will have another think later. But I definitely think we should see people with strong moral and humanitarian principles and no religious belief as an inspiration, not a threat; otherwise we would have to anticipate the complete collapse of society.
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Always like that line from the hymn 'The double agony in man'
— meaning humankind.
Life with Faith can bring agony of it’s own, as can life without Faith. Our we free to dump Faith from our own free will? I am not sure about myself doing as such, this could be me being clingy. Some folks seem able to do this with no apparent regrets.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aravis:
SusanDoris's point is an important one, I think. Whatever your views on the existence of God, it remains a fact that many people don't believe in God and haven't been brought up to do so. You can share your faith with others, but you can't expect them to follow your ideals by appealing to a common religious belief.
I'm not sure where I'm going with this - will have another think later. But I definitely think we should see people with strong moral and humanitarian principles and no religious belief as an inspiration, not a threat; otherwise we would have to anticipate the complete collapse of society.
That, to my mind, is exactly what we are seeing because a toxic combination of the removal of practical constraints by technology and the ruthless smashing of any kind of moral framework by fundamentalist materialism is leading to an utterly inhuman egotism being seen as the norm.
I have nothing against humanists from this perspective, but I do believe that lumping together humanists and materialists is a huge mistake: humanists locate the spirit ontologically as well as experientially in the human person; materialists deny its existence, along with any other connection between individuals that is not purely self-interested.
[ 20. January 2018, 09:22: Message edited by: ThunderBunk ]
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Always like that line from the hymn 'The double agony in man'
— meaning humankind.
Life with Faith can bring agony of it’s own, as can life without Faith. Our we free to dump Faith from our own free will? I am not sure about myself doing as such, this could be me being clingy. Some folks seem able to do this with no apparent regrets.
I don't see free will being involved. I became a Christian because I was attracted to it, and I stopped because I wasn't. Definitely not based on rational considerations. But it's difficult to describe that inner need that moves towards religion, and very difficult to understand why I don't have it now! It reminds me of those old jokes about not stamp collecting.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Agreed. Whatever change takes place ( which I would hope will be away from belief), it must take place gradually, with something firmly in place to provide the strength needed. I hope this would be a confidence in the fact that humans have thought and done it all always anyway without, in my opinion, any god/god/s.
I find your militant and Evangelical vigour very offputting. I don't want to live in a world where people stop dreaming dreams about higher purposes, meaning and deities.
Why do you think that I don't dream dreams about higher purposes? My life is full of optimism, happiness in seeing my family flourish and be well; seeing them contribute towards the well-being of their friends and neighbours; seeing the younger ones looking forward to having their own families and bringing them up to be loving, caring people as they are themselves. And they do this as non-believers.
Of course, I dream, but my dreams do not include a god doing anything to help. I'm just as much an idealist as most people. I worry about the use of plastics and do as much as I can and as many people do, whatever their beliefs, to try and make the world a better place to live in. I care about my neighbours and the community, and I challenge anyone to say that my caring is less than someone's who believes in God and who prays.
quote:
Your pseudo-scientific idealised future seems very grey to me.
Take away the science whose ideas. Technologies, food and water production etc you live among, and your life would indeed be bleak. Remove the idea of God and replace it with a human-centred faith, and the physical life remains … well, I was going to say, identical’, but I’ll say ‘very similar’ instead.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
If I think back to the to the born-again surge which came over me 17 years ago then maybe I could have resisted it. This stands to reason as I must have invited it through introspection in the first instance.
Belief in the 'other' could be something which completely drys up on its own if you let it, starve the faith and feed the doubt as it were.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
That, to my mind, is exactly what we are seeing because a toxic combination of the removal of practical constraints by technology and the ruthless smashing of any kind of moral framework by fundamentalist materialism is leading to an utterly inhuman egotism being seen as the norm.
I have nothing against humanists from this perspective, but I do believe that lumping together humanists and materialists is a huge mistake: humanists locate the spirit ontologically as well as experientially in the human person; materialists deny its existence, along with any other connection between individuals that is not purely self-interested.
Please elaborate on that last sentence of yours. Who are the particular materialists who are denying any spiritual or huanist idea, who have no idea of beauty, arts to uplift the spirit, whose lifelacks any joy? Okay, perhaps that’s a bit too stark, but I hope you will explain a bit more.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I hope this will not count as a tangent, but can you say briefly what one or two of the theological problems are, please?
Well, when I say theological I simply mean religious. If God does exist, and if he does make demands upon the beings whom he created in his image, then the loss of our faith is a catastrophe for him. And it must be a catastrophe for us, as we wander aimlessly away from the Father who loves us. We miss our one true calling and risk losing an eternity with 'the Ground of Being'.
quote:
Whatever change takes place (which I would hope will be away from belief), it must take place gradually, with something firmly in place to provide the strength needed. I hope this would be a confidence in the fact that humans have thought and done it all always anyway without, in my opinion, any god/god/s.
But what sign is there that there's something 'firmly' in place? Many have already lost their faith, and for some of them nothing worthwhile has taken it's place.
I believe that Nietzsche wrote about this problem. He referred to God's retreating shadow. Some still live happily under the shadow of a dead God, having removed the supernatural but kept all the nice, reasonable bits. Others have found the transition very hard. Perhaps the success one has with it depends on the usual sociological factors, as well as psychological ones.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I hope this will not count as a tangent, but can you say briefly what one or two of the theological problems are, please?
Well, when I say theological I simply mean religious. If God does exist, and if he does make demands upon the beings whom he created in his image, then the loss of our faith is a catastrophe for him. And it must be a catastrophe for us, as we wander aimlessly away from the Father who loves us. We miss our one true calling and risk losing an eternity with 'the Ground of Being'.
Thank you for a most interesting reply.
quote:
But what sign is there that there's something 'firmly' in place? Many have already lost their faith, and for some of them nothing worthwhile has taken it's place.
Definitely agree, and that is why I will support the basic CofE until a strong and reliable system is available.
quote:
[I believe that Nietzsche wrote about this problem. He referred to God's retreating shadow. Some still live happily under the shadow of a dead God, having removed the supernatural but kept all the nice, reasonable bits. Others have found the transition very hard. Perhaps the success one has with it depends on the usual sociological factors, as well as psychological ones.
Yes, I think you are right, also that the understanding of the reliability of science and technology will help,particularly with regard to the fact that when things go wrong, it is almost invariably human error, even if it is way back in some obscure beginning. Nothing much is going to change during my remaining years, though!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Whatever change takes place ( which I would hope will be away from belief), it must take place gradually, with something firmly in place to provide the strength needed. I hope this would be a confidence in the fact that humans have thought and done it all always anyway without, in my opinion, any god/god/s.
This is not my experience at all. My faith in God is certainly not a source of strength, but - rather like the OP - a source of confusion. But I see no need whatever for a ‘something’ else to provide strength.
None of us has strength imo. We are, every one of us, hugely vulnerable and reliant on having people of good will around us.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
nice one Boogie. That knowledge of personal frailty and weakness is why the crucified God appeals to me.
[ 20. January 2018, 11:51: Message edited by: simontoad ]
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
bugger should have thought more. I wish to add that I am not at all sure that the idea of personal weakness and inadequacy is a universal experience. I suspect that many people react against the idea that they could be in some way bad or wrong or evil. I never did theology of the human person, but I regret it.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Unum Solum, I admire your courage. Keep coming back at us.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Why do you think that I don't dream dreams about higher purposes?
I never said nor thought otherwise: atheists are capable of many things. However it seems undeiable that theists see things differently to you - to other atheists - and so you're seeking to remove that colour from human society.
I'm perfectly happy for atheism to continue, yet you only see theism as a problem to be eradicated.
On your other point, I am a trained scientist. You might well think that facts are all there is, but I think the variety of human thoughts and beliefs is what makes life interesting.
Printing gives books, but stories give life.
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arse
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Unum Solum:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Unum Solum
..........
It's not clear if your post springs out of a sense of religious entrapment,
......
I feel trapped by God. Growing up in a Western culture means believing in God means believing and accepting Jesus (yes I know Jesus is God - well I don’t really know). [...]
Yet I want to believe and I don’t know why I want to believe, it’s certainly not because I care what others might think of me one way or the other. It’s much deeper than that, it’s 3am in the morning caring.
Do you mind me asking what country you live in? Because from a British perspective, the idea that Christian faith is normative is no longer true. Some European countries, e.g. Sweden, are even less religious.
Whether that's a help to you, I don't know! But I'm coming to the view that there's a kind of vicarious duty in maintaining a Christian faith - if one can - in modern Europe. 'I believe; help my unbelief' is a cry that has more than merely personal significance. One is helping to maintain something of tremendous value. Spiritually, and otherwise.
I mean, who else is going to do it? I don't know how old you are, but once all the old ladies at church are dead, who's going to be left to pray for this suffering world? Perhaps you're young, and you go to a new, trendy church with lots of young people. But the young are often fickle. For some of them faith is a phase, to be tried out before they discover sex and self-advancement, or whatever. Is theirs a better trade off?
Well, there's always something to be gained and lost in any decision we make, but AFAICS a lifetime of grappling with the divine on behalf of oneself and others is hardly worthless.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Why do you think that I don't dream dreams about higher purposes?
I never said nor thought otherwise: atheists are capable of many things. However it seems undeniable that theists see things differently to you - to other atheists - and so you're seeking to remove that colour from human society.
I don’t know where you get that idea from! I can’t imagine anything worse than losing the ability to imagine anything, trillions of things and situations. It is impossible to remove colour, the aesthetic sides of life, the naturally produced reactions and emotions all we humans feel. Perhaps I would say that the need to interpret them via a God/god softens their edges, blurs them, does not let them show fully in their true*, unmitigated reality. If people prefer the slightly-less-than-sharp-and-clear version, then their minds can easily provide them with that alternative view.
quote:
I'm perfectly happy for atheism to continue, yet you only see theism as a problem to be eradicated.
well on the first point, you have no choice )! On the second, that is not so. I see theism as something that has been around since our history began, is going to be around for as long again, but
Will, because of the continuing, unbroken total lack of objective evidence for any God/god/s, sooner or late become a minority-held belief, however large that minority remains.
quote:
On your other point, I am a trained scientist. You might well think that facts are all there is, but I think the variety of human thoughts and beliefs is what makes life interesting.
Couldn’t agree more; however, most are explicable using science, whereas they cannot be shown to be valid as being from any god/god/s using the scientific method, I think you must agree? May I ask what branch of science? =genuine question, no overtones.
quote:
Printing gives books, but stories give life.
Every single word of which came from a human brain, not one, I would strongly assert, from any God/god/s.
*true: obviously not 100%, since science will never claim that.
[ 20. January 2018, 13:01: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Missed out the r in later. Bother!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Whatever change takes place ( which I would hope will be away from belief), it must take place gradually, with something firmly in place to provide the strength needed. I hope this would be a confidence in the fact that humans have thought and done it all always anyway without, in my opinion, any god/god/s.
This is not my experience at all. My faith in God is certainly not a source of strength, but - rather like the OP - a source of confusion. But I see no need whatever for a ‘something’ else to provide strength.
None of us has strength imo. We are, every one of us, hugely vulnerable and reliant on having people of good will around us.
I was thinking more in terms of a need for a strong, background belief, based not on 100% faith, but on knowledge, facts, solid objective evidence, because if that is not available,, there could well be a push by unwelcome ideologies to take power. I think this should be resisted on all fronts.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I don’t know where you get that idea from! I can’t imagine anything worse than losing the ability to imagine anything, trillions of things and situations. It is impossible to remove colour, the aesthetic sides of life, the naturally produced reactions and emotions all we humans feel. Perhaps I would say that the need to interpret them via a God/god softens their edges, blurs them, does not let them show fully in their true*, unmitigated reality. If people prefer the slightly-less-than-sharp-and-clear version, then their minds can easily provide them with that alternative view.
Or perhaps the colour to humanity offered by the theist cannot be replaced by anything else.
Perhaps only through myths and stories do we see things as they really are.
quote:
quote:
I'm perfectly happy for atheism to continue, yet you only see theism as a problem to be eradicated.
well on the first point, you have no choice )!
Rubbish.
quote:
On the second, that is not so. I see theism as something that has been around since our history began, is going to be around for as long again, but
Will, because of the continuing, unbroken total lack of objective evidence for any God/god/s, sooner or late become a minority-held belief, however large that minority remains.
That's nice - remind me why anyone should take what you think with anything other than a pinch of salt. There is no evidence that theism is going to die any time soon.
quote:
quote:
On your other point, I am a trained scientist. You might well think that facts are all there is, but I think the variety of human thoughts and beliefs is what makes life interesting.
Couldn’t agree more; however, most are explicable using science, whereas they cannot be shown to be valid as being from any god/god/s using the scientific method, I think you must agree?
I think that science and philosophy (and religion) are as different as different languages. Answering different questions in different ways with a different vocabulary.
Science can never help with ethics, for example.
I'd rather have a theist make ethical decisions (even a theist with views I didn't agree with) than someone who thinks all moral questions can be reduced to fundamental science. Because molecules and chemistry are important and interesting; but they can't tell us about what it means to care, what is means to feel responsible, what is means to love.
quote:
May I ask what branch of science? =genuine question, no overtones.
I have a postgraduate degree in a biological/natural science. But I don't see what that has to do with anything - what qualifications do you have in philosophy?
quote:
Every single word of which came from a human brain, not one, I would strongly assert, from any God/god/s.
That's nice. Remind me again why that view should be given any more standing than any other.
I see you asserting things, and then simply saying that eventually everyone else will agree. They won't.
[ 20. January 2018, 13:41: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I was thinking more in terms of a need for a strong, background belief, based not on 100% faith, but on knowledge, facts, solid objective evidence, because if that is not available,, there could well be a push by unwelcome ideologies to take power. I think this should be resisted on all fronts.
My faith is far, far less than 100% and the influence of the Church in this country is very small imo.
Life isn’t about certainties, it’s full of messy compromise.
I am beginning to enjoy Church services a lot more now that I’m seeing it as full of stories which explain the human condition - no answers, just stories which help.
It’s interesting because my son lost his faith long ago, he was about 12. He was down to read the Bible reading in Church and was very upset as he didn’t believe what he read. I said “You’ve promised to read it now, so you must do it. But you don’t need to believe it at all, just read it as you would any story.” Now, 20 years later, I’m at the same stage - I see the whole lot as stories, the narrative which ministers hang good (hopefully good!) messages from.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm perfectly happy for atheism to continue, yet you only see theism as a problem to be eradicated.
well on the first point, you have no choice. [/QUOTE]Rubbish.
[/QUOTE]
Surely you don’t think atheism will be eradicated?!!
quote:
why anyone should take what you think with anything other than a pinch of salt. There is no evidence that theism is going to die any time soon.
Which, as you will have noted, iswhat I said.
quote:
I'd rather have a theist make ethical decisions (even a theist with views I didn't agree with) than someone who thinks all moral questions can be reduced to fundamental science.
this is something I have not said … unless you can cite evidence to the contrary. quote:
I have a postgraduate degree in a biological/natural science. But I don't see what that has to do with anything - what qualifications do you have in philosophy?
Thank you – it just makes it more interesting I think. And no, I have no qualifications in philosophy.
quote:
quote:
Every single word of which came from a human brain, not one, I would strongly assert, from any God/god/s.
That's nice. Remind me again why that view should be given any more standing than any other.
Possibly total lack of objective evidence for any god-produced word?!
quote:
I see you asserting things, and then simply saying that eventually everyone else will agree. They won't.
On the contrary, I have particularly said, that there will always be a minority, probably a very large one, that most certainly wil not agree.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
But belief is not based on facts: can't be, ever, for anyone. It is based on experience and conviction. To put it another way, belief or faith is an element of being, not an element of knowledge.
The requirement for beliefs to be based on fact is a fundamental category error which excludes its speaker from any debate about faith unless and until they have learned what it actually is.
[ 20. January 2018, 15:02: Message edited by: ThunderBunk ]
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Unum Solum:
If so can I ask not what you believe but why you choose to believe what you do, does it add something to your life, to who you are? Or is it a no brainer and to you what you believe “just is”, therefore it is not a conscious decision there is for you just no other choice.
Nothing, for me, is a no brainer. Sometimes a wrong brainer, but my positions and beliefs contain much internal examination. My journey is an odd one and I don't generally do personal details. But I believe what I do because it feels right. Not without question or challenge, but right. For me.
In the end, that is the only solid advice I can offer: Self-examination.
Unquestioned belief is worthless.
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
And, incidentally, why 'and Buddhism'? In world terms, Buddhism is hardly not a 'major religion'.
Some view Buddhism as a philosophy, rather than a religion.
[ 20. January 2018, 15:18: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Surely you don’t think atheism will be eradicated?!!
Sorry pardon, I misread what you said. I thought you were saying that I had no choice in the gradual eradication of theism.
Apologies.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
But belief is not based on facts: can't be, ever, for anyone. It is based on experience and conviction. To put it another way, belief or faith is an element of being, not an element of knowledge.
There are beliefs based on facs and beliefs based on faith alone, aren’t there? I don’t think you can put them together.
All the things I believ are backed up by facts. Some contain an element of ‘don’t know’ of course, but there are no things I believe which require 100% faith alone. All God/religious ideas require the 100% faith.
quote:
[The requirement for beliefs to be based on fact is a fundamental category error which excludes its speaker from any debate about faith unless and until they have learned what it actually is.
There is no ‘requirement’ for beliefs to be based on fact, but if someone states that a belief is true and they know – from experience or something - it to be true, in spite of a total lack of objective evidence, then that certainly could be labelled an error, especially if it is indoctrinated into children. I think there is a requirement for such a person to say clearly that they believe such and such to be true but cannot supply the verifiable( etc etc) back0-up. In such a case, then I would defend absolutely their right to express such beliefs with conviction. If one has had a belief which required the total faith aspect, then one can join in a debate with knowledge of what and how it was to be so. I had that absolute faith for many years. There were those who tried to point out the lack of evidence but I would respond with, But there must be a force/power out there.’
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
... Who are the particular materialists who are denying any spiritual or huanist idea, who have no idea of beauty, arts to uplift the spirit, whose lifelacks any joy? ...
SusanDoris, I've probably asked this before, and I've chosen one of your statements making more or less the same point at random.
I'm not denying that many atheists experience beauty, uplift of the spirit, the effects on the spirit of inspirational art, even the inspiration of noble ideals and ethics. It's clear that you do.
What puzzles me, though, is where that fits into the atheist or humanist universe. Where in it is the dimension in which these things can function? Is there a sound explanation of how and where these higher human qualities are or can come from? Or is the explanation a bit of wishful thinking, an attempt to get round the possibility that the foundations of the atheist or humanist universe are sand?
Even without having to accept any particular theology as to what that 'more' is, and how it works, the other possible explanations are all too dreadful to contemplate because they all involve having to accept the possibility that there might be a 'more' of some sort.
It's a bit like Professor Dawkins's memes. They explain a problem for him. There might even be something in his theory. But he refuses to recognise that there is nowhere in his picture of the universe for them to exist. His theory of them, and to him, their malign influence, has to be dependent on an explanation of life, the universe and everything that is fundamentally alien to his understanding of it.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Surely you don’t think atheism will be eradicated?!!
Sorry pardon, I misread what you said. I thought you were saying that I had no choice in the gradual eradication of theism.
Apologies.
No problem - thank you for saying.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
But some things cannot be proven, and must either be accepted or denied.
Mathematics is philosophy. Various complicated and beautiful mathematical proofs exist, but it isn't possible to prove the basic assumptions of how numbers work.
You just have to either accept it and move on with the complex ideas built upon those assumptions, or stubbornly reject them and likely remain ignorant about mathematics.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Enoch
Thank you for that very interesting post. I'll need to have a think! so I will be responding as soon as I have done so!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
But belief is not based on facts: can't be, ever, for anyone. It is based on experience and conviction. To put it another way, belief or faith is an element of being, not an element of knowledge.
There are beliefs based on facs and beliefs based on faith alone, aren’t there? I don’t think you can put them together.
All the things I believ are backed up by facts. Some contain an element of ‘don’t know’ of course, but there are no things I believe which require 100% faith alone. All God/religious ideas require the 100% faith.
quote:
[The requirement for beliefs to be based on fact is a fundamental category error which excludes its speaker from any debate about faith unless and until they have learned what it actually is.
There is no ‘requirement’ for beliefs to be based on fact, but if someone states that a belief is true and they know – from experience or something - it to be true, in spite of a total lack of objective evidence, then that certainly could be labelled an error, especially if it is indoctrinated into children. I think there is a requirement for such a person to say clearly that they believe such and such to be true but cannot supply the verifiable( etc etc) back0-up. In such a case, then I would defend absolutely their right to express such beliefs with conviction. If one has had a belief which required the total faith aspect, then one can join in a debate with knowledge of what and how it was to be so. I had that absolute faith for many years. There were those who tried to point out the lack of evidence but I would respond with, But there must be a force/power out there.’
But there it is again. Your insistence is wrong because it falsifies the nature of belief. There can be no evidence for belief. There never will be.
Perhaps you have just shown the reason why. There is no such thing as absolute faith or belief either. That is idolatrous, because it tries to make mystery into something which is absolutely known. It can't be known; it can only be believed in, an object of faith.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
But some things cannot be proven, and must either be accepted or denied.
Of course, there are plenty of uncertainties, don't -knows, etc. However, to explain them with a faith belief is the way, in my opinion, to block the finding of the best answer.
quote:
Mathematics is philosophy. Various complicated and beautiful mathematical proofs exist, but it isn't possible to prove the basic assumptions of how numbers work.
You just have to either accept it and move on with the complex ideas built upon those assumptions, or stubbornly reject them and likely remain ignorant about mathematics.
I think you have chosen a fairly easily demurred against topic here!
maths is a known thing;. it needs no faith to accept its 'existence'. I have heard people say that mathematics existed before human brains *found* it, or that that humans are *discovering* something that already exists. Well, I don't think that matters, since no-one worships maths , i.e. in a similar way to worshipping God. . It is perceived as an amazingly marvellous thing and it is awe-inspiring to hear mathematicians speak about their subject.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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