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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Poppies and neo-Nazi Appropriation
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
This is getting on my tits.
Fuckwit neo-nazi outfits like Britain First, EDL, God knows what other evil little shits, are colonising social media, putting out memes mostly aimed at a non-existent Muslim objection and offence taken to the poppy, along the lines of "If my Poppy offends you then fuck off home".
And people are lapping it up. Fuckwits who don't spend two minutes looking up the source of the poisonous shit they're sharing. Fuckwits who don't question the bullshit they're being sold about the evul Muslamics. Fuckwits who are being manipulated to demonise, to hate, to distrust, and finally to regard a minority group much as the Nazis brainwashed the German population into hatred of the Jews.
It's made me not want to wear one this year - this and the RBL's children's T-shirts bearing the slogan "Future Soldier", admittedly - because I don't want for a second to be associated with these dangerous little shits nor the people who are are too stupid to see how they're being manipulated into sharing neo-Nazi produced material. But my God, you dare not to, or to wear (heavens forfend!) a white one, and you're immediately accused of disrespect and a subject of abuse.
Makes me want to hide away until the whole thing's over.
[ 03. November 2016, 10:13: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Britain First are well known for appropriating something good and putting a nasty twist on it. That EDL are in on the game doesn't surprise me. They are sick people.
What I find more concerning is the general shift in society regarding poppies and Remembrance. There were people on the street interviewed on the news this morning in relation to footballers wearing poppy arm bands, and several of them said that they wear poppies to support the military. What? Poppies are to remember and honour those who died in service, and they are a statement of a commitment to seek a future where we never again send young men and women to fight for us. They have nothing to do with supporting those who are currently serving in the military, nothing to do with what we think of shites like Bliar who sent our troops to fight an illegal war. It's all about the sacrifice of those who went before us into war, doing what they thought was the least worst thing for their nation and families, and for future generations.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
There were people on the street interviewed on the news this morning in relation to footballers wearing poppy arm bands
If this is what you're referring to, I think it's an excellent allegory of Britain's relationship to the EU.
Of course poppies and "Poppy Day" have important cultural significance in the UK. But outside the UK, they simply don't.
People in France don't have the slightest idea what these poppies are all about (although they probably wonder why you don't have a bank holiday for Armistice Day every November 11 or celebrate VE Day).
From inside the UK to most normal people, wearing a poppy may seem quite normal. But lots of British citizens seem to be all upset that the rest of the world, embodied in the above instance by FIFA, don't see things the way they do - and adjust the rules accordingly.
[ 03. November 2016, 11:24: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I've never worn a poppy, and I don't intend to start. It is being changed into a more political symbol, I think, just see the tabloid reaction to anyone who doesn't. There is one footballer who doesn't, and he is regularly vilified for it (James McClean).
I had to laugh at Theresa May in Parliament, she certainly made it political (about FIFA).
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
I've always worn a poppy and don't intend to stop just because the fash are BACAI. That said, FIFA happen to be bang on with regard to this one.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Britain First are well known for appropriating something good and putting a nasty twist on it. That EDL are in on the game doesn't surprise me. They are sick people.
What I find more concerning is the general shift in society regarding poppies and Remembrance. There were people on the street interviewed on the news this morning in relation to footballers wearing poppy arm bands, and several of them said that they wear poppies to support the military. What? Poppies are to remember and honour those who died in service, and they are a statement of a commitment to seek a future where we never again send young men and women to fight for us. They have nothing to do with supporting those who are currently serving in the military, nothing to do with what we think of shites like Bliar who sent our troops to fight an illegal war. It's all about the sacrifice of those who went before us into war, doing what they thought was the least worst thing for their nation and families, and for future generations.
Which is why the RBL had those kids wearing those "future soldiers" T-shirts?
That's the problem here - it's not what it started as. It was always thus; the White poppy started in 1933 because of unhappiness about the way it was becoming militaristic. It keeps on being dragged that way.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
There's an interesting argument from FIFA, that many countries have wars and revolutions, and so on, and presumably they might want to commemorate these by some symbols or other. I can see why FIFA just says no to all of them. I think a Russian player was fined for showing images of Putin.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
I've always worn a poppy and don't intend to stop just because the fash are BACAI. That said, FIFA happen to be bang on with regard to this one.
This illustrates the sort of thing I'm talking about here though - half of Facebook would have you shot for treason for even daring to think that at the moment. The slightest deviation from the party line is taken as dishonouring of the war dead and marks the dissenter out as someone who's beneath contempt.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Irish players did display a symbol commemorating the Easter Rising, but I think they were friendly games, and not approved by FIFA.
http://tinyurl.com/j4222xu
But in relation to poppies, you now have a form of bullying going on. Imagine if a BBC newsreader stopped wearing one, there would be demands that they are sacked. In fact, there is an ITV newsreader who refuses, (Charlene White), plus also Jon Snow.
[ 03. November 2016, 11:48: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
I've always worn a poppy and don't intend to stop just because the fash are BACAI. That said, FIFA happen to be bang on with regard to this one.
This illustrates the sort of thing I'm talking about here though - half of Facebook would have you shot for treason for even daring to think that at the moment. The slightest deviation from the party line is taken as dishonouring of the war dead and marks the dissenter out as someone who's beneath contempt.
Half of Facebook would probably have me shot for treason the rest of the year as well.
On my first year in the current parish, I had complaints about my not wearing a poppy on my vestments on Remembrance Sunday. I tuck it into the buttonhole of my cassock as a compromise. I forebore to point out that in the previous parish one of the worshippers left four individual poppy crosses by the war memorial, signifying a relative who had died in the Great War and three colleagues who had been killed in Iraq and had been generally complimentary about the tone struck by yours truly on Remembrance Sunday. If he could live without me wearing a poppy on my vestments then basically everyone else can suck it up and deal, IMO.
I think that there is some kind of inverse correlation between Poppy silliness and "having a fucking clue about what war is like". When I took the Armistice Day commemoration a few days later the Chairman of the RBL began by saying that he and the dead had fought for freedom including the freedom of people who were ignoring the commemoration and doing whatever it was they were doing at 11am that morning.
Unfortunately, there is a section of the population that enjoys feeling righteously aggrieved and the first eleven days of November offers them that opportunity in spades. Being essentially a somewhat vain and self-involved individual I tend to prefer the approbation of my conscience to the good opinion of wankers, so I try to ignore them.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
I will wear my poppy, but if others choose not then it's nothing to do with me.
The whole thing is nonsense and manufactured outrage. Muslims fought in both wars and the poppy is as much about them as anyone else.
I usually PM people who share Britain First memes as many people still don't know they're a nasty far right group. Most people take them down when it's pointed out. Hardcore offenders get put on mute. That said, I don't bother with FB much. It annoys me.
Tubbs
[ 03. November 2016, 12:06: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
I will wear my poppy, but if others choose not then it's nothing to do with me.
The whole thing is nonsense and manufactured outrage. Muslims fought in both wars and the poppy is as much about them as anyone else.
I usually PM people who share Britain First memes as many people still don't know they're a nasty far right group. Most people take them down when it's pointed out. Hardcore offenders get put on mute. That said, I don't bother with FB much. It annoys me.
Tubbs
I've blocked one today. Apparently she shouldn't have to check up on whose posts she's sharing because her "heart's in the right place".
At the risk of Godwinning, Hitler would have loved Facebook. He could have had the Final Solution going by 1937...
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I wear one of each - a red poppy and a white poppy.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I've expressed my amazement at the UK's poppy obsession previously on the Ship.
It's gone from marking a particular day to something people in the public eye are expected to wear the whole month. Before you know it, in certain circumstances it will be obligatory all year round.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It's gone from marking a particular day to something people in the public eye are expected to wear the whole month.
That's pretty much why I don't wear one.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
I will wear my poppy, but if others choose not then it's nothing to do with me.
The whole thing is nonsense and manufactured outrage. Muslims fought in both wars and the poppy is as much about them as anyone else.
I usually PM people who share Britain First memes as many people still don't know they're a nasty far right group. Most people take them down when it's pointed out. Hardcore offenders get put on mute. That said, I don't bother with FB much. It annoys me.
Tubbs
I've blocked one today. Apparently she shouldn't have to check up on whose posts she's sharing because her "heart's in the right place".
At the risk of Godwinning, Hitler would have loved Facebook. He could have had the Final Solution going by 1937...
Shame about her brain ...
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I usually wear a poppy, but not until Remembrance Sunday - it's one of those neat little enamel-badge-type ones.
In the past, if I've been vested on RS, I've worn it on my Blue Scarf.
My adoptive Dad was in the Army (he served in the BEF, but was invalided out just before Dunkirk), and my biological Dad - who I never met - served in the Royal Navy in 1944-45, so it's kind of in memory of both of them IYSWIM, as well as of those who died in WW2 or subsequent wars.
The way in which the poppy wearing has been hijacked by the fascists is despicable, though, IMNSHO.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I wear one of each - a red poppy and a white poppy.
I would if I could ever get hold of a white poppy. The only place I know that sells them is Quaker house, but that's over an hour's commute each way from where I live.
I will not berate anyone for their choice to wear one, both or neither. What I will condemn are those cockwombles who think that failure to wear one "with pride" means that one lacks respect. As if respect is only embodied in what you pin to your lapel.
If I do ever wear a poppy, it's as part of a collective shame. Shame that I am part of a race that thinks that war is duty, that thinks soldiers are heroes and that thinks remembrance is to be enforced. I'm currently sat a few yards from the Cenotaph, and it so, so irks me that it is inscribed with "The Glorious Dead". There's nothing glorious about war. Nothing. Not one goddamn thing! Soldiers are both victims and perpetrators (victims when they're killed, perpetrators when they kill), but they are never ever heroes.
And neither are those who take vicarious pride in the actions of others.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
White Poppies are available from the Peace Pledge Union by post. May be a bit late this year, though you could give them a ring.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Kitten
Shipmate
# 1179
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Posted
They also have an authorised seller of enamel white poppies on eBay, but have just advised that the latest shipment in was stopped at customs as, apparently, the RBL have to give permission for any goods to enter the country with a poppy motif
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Maius intra qua extra
Never accept a ride from a stranger, unless they are in a big blue box
Posts: 2330 | From: Carmarthenshire | Registered: Aug 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
I'm currently sat a few yards from the Cenotaph, and it so, so irks me that it is inscribed with "The Glorious Dead". There's nothing glorious about war. Nothing. Not one goddamn thing!
This may just be my idiosyncracy, but I always think of that as "The Dead Who Are In Glory" rather than saying there was anything glorious in their being dead, or the way they died. I agree there is no glory in war, and I want no part in glorifying war, but I don't think that the Cenotaph (and countless other memorials around the world) were designed to glorify war, simply to remember the young men and women who died in war - war that they thought was the least bad option, the lesser of evils, the least inglorious action.
Now, I would never want to speculate on the ultimate fate of anyone, that's in the hands of God alone. But, I would consider it pastorally sensible to err on the optimistic side and assume that people are in Glory rather than the alternative.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
I'm currently sat a few yards from the Cenotaph, and it so, so irks me that it is inscribed with "The Glorious Dead". There's nothing glorious about war. Nothing. Not one goddamn thing!
This may just be my idiosyncracy, but I always think of that as "The Dead Who Are In Glory" rather than saying there was anything glorious in their being dead, or the way they died. I agree there is no glory in war, and I want no part in glorifying war, but I don't think that the Cenotaph (and countless other memorials around the world) were designed to glorify war, simply to remember the young men and women who died in war - war that they thought was the least bad option, the lesser of evils, the least inglorious action.
Now, I would never want to speculate on the ultimate fate of anyone, that's in the hands of God alone. But, I would consider it pastorally sensible to err on the optimistic side and assume that people are in Glory rather than the alternative.
agree entirely
although, if you're going to take the "they thought it was the least bad option line" isn't that problematic when it comes to treating those who were caught up in the "rush to the colours" of 1914 and 1915. They signed up with enthusiasm, thinking it was going to be a laugh. *That they then carried on* until the end fits more closely with your thesis, but it's not the case that a whole generation thought they were doing the least bad thing - not in WW1 anyway. I'd give you WW2.
[ 03. November 2016, 16:08: Message edited by: betjemaniac ]
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Reminds me of the bitter Wilfred Owen lines:
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.
(It is sweet and right to die for your country).
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I agree with your comment Alan, for the Canadian context.
And there is a nation to nation context. I was in Washington DC for 11 Nov a numbers of years ago, and found the context of promotion of military very jarring. They do remembrance on a different day I understand.
The white poppy thing has not caught on in Canada, and probably won't. The poem In Flanders Fields by Canadian John McCrae in 1915 is the source of our poppy lore, is always sung to one of the musical settings at services, in schools, in public Remembrance Day ceremonies. If there's one poem that Canadian children know by memory, it is In Flanders Fields. The poppies are red thereby symbolizing blood and loss of life. Although the second part of the poem suggests taking up arms and continuing battle, it is completely overshadowed by the understanding of the slaughter in the trenches.
Poppies in Canada are distributed by the Royal Canadian Legion. November 11 is the day when the ceremonies and services are held, and it is a holiday in many, not all, provinces.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I wear one of each - a red poppy and a white poppy.
Given the author of this post, I can't be the only one who read "a red puppy and a white puppy".
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
if you're going to take the "they thought it was the least bad option line" isn't that problematic when it comes to treating those who were caught up in the "rush to the colours" of 1914 and 1915. They signed up with enthusiasm, thinking it was going to be a laugh. *That they then carried on* until the end fits more closely with your thesis, but it's not the case that a whole generation thought they were doing the least bad thing - not in WW1 anyway. I'd give you WW2.
Were people lied to, mislead into signing up? Were their motives for doing so unclear? Was what they found at the front nothing like what they expected? Did they join up because they didn't want to be thought of as cowards, to save face before friends and family? Did they sign up because friends had been killed and wounded, and they wanted to do their bit so that the earlier sacrifices were not given in defeat? Yes, and more. But, they signed up, and died, "for King and Country" (replace with appropriate phrase for other nations), because they thought it was what they needed to do. Despite all their failings, all the mixed and less than pure motives, they died for their friends, family, nation - and for those who came after them. And, we should still honour them for that. I would extend the same honour to all sides, even the common soldiers of Germany and Japan in the second war.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I wear one of each - a red poppy and a white poppy.
Given the author of this post, I can't be the only one who read "a red puppy and a white puppy".
Haha - I was 'wearing' black and yellow puppies yesterday!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
I keep seeing the thread title as "Puppies and neo Nazis", an odd combination indeed.
More on the actual topic of the thread, in the US you don't see poppies that often on Nov 11, which in the US is celebrated as Veterans day. Although they are more appropriate for November 11th, poppies are more often seen on Memorial Day, in May. And even then, at least around here, not all that often.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I've expressed my amazement at the UK's poppy obsession previously on the Ship.
It's gone from marking a particular day to something people in the public eye are expected to wear the whole month. Before you know it, in certain circumstances it will be obligatory all year round.
Is it not headed that way in Oz at the moment as well (though obviously substituting April for November?) It is here. Also the growth in palpable public staring at you if you are walking about in public without one on.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
From inside the UK to most normal people, wearing a poppy may seem quite normal. But lots of British citizens seem to be all upset that the rest of the world, embodied in the above instance by FIFA, don't see things the way they do - and adjust the rules accordingly.
Damn right. I can see why FIFA are saying no. In expecting to be allowed to wear poppy armbands (and especially in threatening to go ahead and do it anyway), ISTM that the England team are demonstrating the worst kind of cultural arrogance - our wars are more important than other wars, our remembrance is more worthy than other countries', our grief is more real than yours. If any individual players feel really strongly about calling out armistice day as a day of remembrance, then they could take a leaf out of Eric Liddell's book and just refuse to play on that day. And (presumably) forfeit their match fees.
[ 03. November 2016, 20:58: Message edited by: anoesis ]
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Reminds me of the bitter Wilfred Owen lines:
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.
(It is sweet and right to die for your country).
Which in turn reminds me of " We Died because our fathers Lied".
Someone writing in retrospect on behalf of the dead from WW1.
This present day carry on, with accusations of everyone lying in politics, isolationism, and the way the Poppy appeal is now year on year dragged into a murky jingoistic contention. All of this makes me can't help but feel, though truly hoping I'm wrong, that we are, once again, priming ourselves for something catastrophic.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
All of this makes me can't help but feel, though truly hoping I'm wrong, that we are, once again, priming ourselves for something catastrophic.
Inevitable break-up of the UK?
It's been in existence in its current form for just over a 100 years. A mere blip in the grand scheme of things, and yes, some will mourn its passing. I'm mostly equivocal over the lines on the map.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
If that turns out to be the only catastrophe in future the scheme of things then many would be happy to settle for that.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Which in turn reminds me of " We Died because our fathers Lied".
Someone writing in retrospect on behalf of the dead from WW1.
Not just someone, but Kipling, in a collection of Epitaphs of the War 1914-1919
quote:
COMMON FORM
If any question why we died,
Tell them, because our fathers lied.
A complex person, Kipling.
[ 04. November 2016, 11:58: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Common sense and attempts at understanding take a back seat in the season of poppy worship. The poppy has sadly become a signifier of allegiance and political affiliation. It's the reverse of the yellow armband. If you haven't got one clearly on display at all times during the entire month of November you must be an enemy of the state, a morally bankrupt individual and a truly wretched person. The accusations and arguments carry all the weight and clarity of the Brexit debates. There will come a time when the charity will be forced into making comment. When that happens, the game is up.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Alan:
quote:
Poppies are to remember and honour those who died in service, and they are a statement of a commitment to seek a future where we never again send young men and women to fight for us. They have nothing to do with supporting those who are currently serving in the military, nothing to do with what we think of shites like Bliar who sent our troops to fight an illegal war.
I would very much like to think this is the case and has/was for some time my own understanding of it and in this sense is of course very laudable and good. However, only last year the British Legion poppy banners on display had an image of a little girl holding up a poppy with the caption, 'Support my daddy in Iraq'. It was a banner that sat really uneasily with me on many levels. I'm not sure if this was just a local thing here or of it was an officially rolled out campaign for the British Legion. It didn't seem like the sort of thing they usually do.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I see the RBL is not backing down.
The fact that wearing the poppy is solely a British symbol makes it political. Again, this is asking the rest of the world to adopt a wholly British cultural practice. How myopic can you get?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
asking the rest of the world to adopt a wholly British cultural practice. How myopic can you get?
As it's for a game played in England, between England and Scotland everyone involved (possible exception of referee and linesmen) will be British anyway.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
asking the rest of the world to adopt a wholly British cultural practice. How myopic can you get?
As it's for a game played in England, between England and Scotland everyone involved (possible exception of referee and linesmen) will be British anyway.
It's the EU all over again.
If it's a FIFA game it should abide by FIFA rules irrespective of where it's played. It's doubtless being watched all over the place. You don't just get to opt out of the rules when you feel like it.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
It's doubtless being watched all over the place.
By scattered ex-pats. No one else is going to be that bothered by two teams who'll need a miracle to qualify for the finals.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
Is it not headed that way in Oz at the moment as well (though obviously substituting April for November?) It is here. Also the growth in palpable public staring at you if you are walking about in public without one on.
No, not headed that way at all. People are expected to stop at 11 am for silence, but no poppy wearing - if poppies are worn at all, that's on Remembrance Day. You may wear a charity badge, or as we do, a sprig of rosemary, no need to though.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
It's doubtless being watched all over the place.
By scattered ex-pats. No one else is going to be that bothered by two teams who'll need a miracle to qualify for the finals.
I presume you are playing Devil's Advocate here, Alan, and I don't need to say "that's hardly the point, is it?"
Anyway, while game itself may not ultimately be watched widely, the issues surrounding it have made the news here on the other side of the world, and we are NOT a football-mad or even football-interested country (at least when the football in question is spherical).
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Again, this is asking the rest of the world to adopt a wholly British cultural practice. How myopic can you get?
No it's not. There is no adoption proposed. The RBL is not proposing to ask the rest of the world to wear poppies. It is asking FIFA to respect this "wholly British cultural practice".
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Adopt was the wrong word. "Accept as normal" would be better.
The implication, as viewed from here outside the UK at least, is that the rest of the world should simply understand British cultural practice and make room for it, and is being uppity and rude if it doesn't, whereas any foreign cultural practice can jolly well abide by the rules.
It's like Brits who think everyone else in the world should, by rights, understand English if you shout loud enough.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The implication, as viewed from here outside the UK at least, is that the rest of the world should simply understand British cultural practice and make room for it, and is being uppity and rude if it doesn't, whereas any foreign cultural practice can jolly well abide by the rules.
That point would probably have more weight if we weren't talking about a game invented by the British, played in Britain, with two British teams and watched (largely, I imagine) by British spectators.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Adopt was the wrong word. "Accept as normal" would be better.
The implication, as viewed from here outside the UK at least, is that the rest of the world should simply understand British cultural practice and make room for it, and is being uppity and rude if it doesn't, whereas any foreign cultural practice can jolly well abide by the rules.
It's like Brits who think everyone else in the world should, by rights, understand English if you shout loud enough.
Sometimes I feel like I live in a theme park called "Daily Mail world". I hate it. Pluralism is in critical danger, and the exit doors from this hell are blocked.
[ 05. November 2016, 07:13: Message edited by: ThunderBunk ]
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
That point would probably have more weight if we weren't talking about a game invented by the British, played in Britain, with two British teams and watched (largely, I imagine) by British spectators.
Way to prove my point.
The game is being played under the auspices of FIFA and thus should abide by FIFA rules. Your attitude exactly mirrors Brexiters who want simultaneously to have all the benefits afforded by the EU, the Single Market, etc. and the right to opt out as they see fit.
Your attitude also exactly mirrors that of Brexiters in that it seems to think the UK is frozen in the 1950s or earlier. Like it or not, the UK is part of a globalised world. If it wants to pretend, in some mixture of jingoism and nostalgia, that it can flout international agreements because Brittania rules the waves or some such, then fine, but to the rest of the world, this doesn't look patriotic or courageous: it looks petulant and petty - or just plain eccentric. It's about on the level of Icelandic belief in trolls.
If you want to harp on about the Britishness of British soccer played by British teams, stop playing international fixtures where British teams will encounter nasty foreigners who don't know their place.
[ 05. November 2016, 07:22: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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