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Source: (consider it) Thread: Can living equines be humanely destroyed?
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Is there a provision for topics to be declared hereafter to be Dead Horses? I'm thinking as an example of Dispensationalism II: Daniel - just when you thought it was safe to read Revelation again...

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Arethosemyfeet
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Presumably not: the criterion is that it must first be flogged to death!
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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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Can we say that baptism is a Dead Horse? Maybe we could have a nomination process for DH subjects for the new boards?

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arse

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mousethief

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My vote: the deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament (or not of the Old Testament depending on whom you ask).

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
My vote: the deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament (or not of the Old Testament depending on whom you ask).

Far too obscure a subject to be a Dead Horse. Entrenched positions are one of the criteria for DH status, but not the only one.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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Personal view. I think the categories are showing their age and need refreshing. I'd put Closed Communion back into mainstream since it's a rare topic. And replace homosexuality with LGBTI. The current Purg/DH demarcation can get very artificial. PSA gets done to death here but the only way of avoiding daft demarcation lines would be to make Atonement Theology a DH. Personally I could live with that.

I think all matters dispensational can be discussed under the DH biblical inerrancy, since it is an inerrant scheme. I understand mousethief's frustration, he always makes sense re the Deuteronocanonicals, but I think Marvin is right.

B62, DH Host

[ 19. February 2018, 11:05: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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mr cheesy
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Fwiw, I think we need to look at the purpose of DH rather than get too hung up on whether particular subjects meet the criteria. AFAIU the point is to defuse some hard-fought subjects which would otherwise just be going in circles elsewhere.

Of course the problem is that some of us have been here long enough to see pretty much everything discussed to death. So distinguishing between the normal process of seeing things come around again and something that is annoying enough to be a DH is difficult.

That said, I can't see the harm in having more DH subjects. Or even in periodically revisiting how DH is being used and deciding that the fire has gone out from one set of circular arguments and instead a different set of questions are being done-to-death.

Another thought I had was whether we need somewhere for people to battle it out with long-winded and convoluted posts with biblical quotations. That's not quite Kerg, where the emphasis is on individual verses or chapters - but isn't Purg either, where we tend to get pretty bored of this kind of thing.

Maybe if shipmates could post (or this kind of post could be moved) to a ringfenced board, then they might realise that few others wanted to engage in that level and/or they'd get into long, happy technical discussions with combatants.

Maybe therefore I'm arguing that DH should be less about particular subjects and more about the way that they're being discussed - and that maybe some subjects might need to go there even if they don't meet the normal DH standards.

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arse

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
So distinguishing between the normal process of seeing things come around again and something that is annoying enough to be a DH is difficult.

Of course, the qualifying descriptor of a Dead Horse subject is more than "mr cheesy is bored of it". Specifically, they are subjects that:
  1. topics that tend to come up regularly on nearly all Christian bulletin boards
  2. tend to clutter up such boards in a manner that discourages debate on other topics
  3. which there will be no answer this side of the afterlife
  4. arguments which feature polarized, deeply entrenched positions, and where opposition is taken personally
  5. topics which cause huge headaches for the Hosts who must moderate them
Of which, IMO, points 2 and 4 are most significant, with 5 running close behind. And, all of them play a part.

quote:
That said, I can't see the harm in having more DH subjects. Or even in periodically revisiting how DH is being used and deciding that the fire has gone out from one set of circular arguments and instead a different set of questions are being done-to-death.
We do have such regular revisits of the subjects. A Styx thread such as this is at least an annual occurrence, and a chance to look again at the list of topics. We have occasionally given some of the nags a canter on the main boards for a trial period.

I'm in favour of such a refreshing of the subject list. Though, I suspect that in a lot of instances it would lead to a reduction in the number of subjects so listed (on the basis that they're now less likely to cause board-clutter or hostly headaches than 10 years ago) rather than add to them. I think I can speak for all of us on the bridge and say that we welcome suggestions of how we might proceed in relation to the Dead Horse subject list.

quote:

Another thought I had was whether we need somewhere for people to battle it out with long-winded and convoluted posts with biblical quotations.

Sounds like a Circus game. A "my proof-text out-proves your proof-text", or "proof texting trump".

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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RdrEmCofE
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quote:
Can we say that baptism is a Dead Horse? Maybe we could have a nomination process for DH subjects for the new boards?
I would say that from recent experience it can't.

It is not so much a 'Dead Horse' as a 'Living Sacrifice' that will keep crawling off the credo-baptist altar and biting the fat arse of those who think they know everything there is to know about it already and whose jaded theological curiosity is restricted entirely to their own dogmatic bigotry and limited reading attention span.

Anything but a dead horse. Alive and kicking I would say.

And notice I have not mentioned any names here.

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Love covers many sins. 1 Pet.4:8. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not holding their sins against them; 2 Cor.5:19

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I think I can speak for all of us on the bridge and say that we welcome suggestions of how we might proceed in relation to the Dead Horse subject list.

quote:

Another thought I had was whether we need somewhere for people to battle it out with long-winded and convoluted posts with biblical quotations.

Sounds like a Circus game. A "my proof-text out-proves your proof-text", or "proof texting trump".
Our shiny new Ship might provide such an opportunity. Open threads for the usual suspects (ie, the half-dozen at the top of the pile) and as others come along, very possibly in Purgatory and Kerygmania, examine whether these really are a DH, or can be left where they are, under close hostly observation.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
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quote:
Originally posted by RdrEmCofE:
notice I have not mentioned any names here.

Yeah, I noticed. You managed to stay just inside the line of personal attack. Though I suspect that those you are referring to will know who you are talking about. If that's what you think about people who hold different opinions to you then it's no surprise that you're not succeeding at holding a constructive and interesting discussion.

It wouldn't surprise me if you don't experience another aspect of our community here, that is getting called to Hell.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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kingsfold

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quote:
posted by ReaderEmCofE:
It is not so much a 'Dead Horse' as a 'Living Sacrifice' that will keep crawling off the credo-baptist altar and biting the fat arse of those who think they know everything there is to know about it already and whose jaded theological curiosity is restricted entirely to their own dogmatic bigotry and limited reading attention span.

From that, using Alan's guide to what represents a deceased equine we have...

1. topics that tend to come up regularly on nearly all Christian bulletin boards CHECK
2.tend to clutter up such boards in a manner that discourages debate on other topics
3.which there will be no answer this side of the afterlife CHECK
4.arguments which feature polarized, deeply entrenched positions, and where opposition is taken personally CHECK
5.topics which cause huge headaches for the Hosts who must moderate them

3 out of 5 and counting, and as I'm not a host I'm not prepared to comment on the other 2...

Seems to me that if it looks like a deceased equine, canters like a deceased equine and smells like a deceased equine....

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I came to Jesus and I found in him my star, my sun.
And in that light of life I'll walk 'til travelling days are done


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RdrEmCofE
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quote:
Another thought I had was whether we need somewhere for people to battle it out with long-winded and convoluted posts with biblical quotations. That's not quite Kerg, where the emphasis is on individual verses or chapters - but isn't Purg either, where we tend to get pretty bored of this kind of thing.
Now there a nice helpful thought Mr Cheesy. Perhaps once two thread contributors seem to the only one's interested enough to continue debate, the discussion could be shunted into a siding or to use a more nautical analogy, be allowed to continue their debate in 'The Crows Nest' away from the rest of the sleeping or 'scrimshaw making' crew in the fo'c'sle.

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Love covers many sins. 1 Pet.4:8. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not holding their sins against them; 2 Cor.5:19

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by RdrEmCofE:
quote:
Another thought I had was whether we need somewhere for people to battle it out with long-winded and convoluted posts with biblical quotations. That's not quite Kerg, where the emphasis is on individual verses or chapters - but isn't Purg either, where we tend to get pretty bored of this kind of thing.
Now there a nice helpful thought Mr Cheesy. Perhaps once two thread contributors seem to the only one's interested enough to continue debate, the discussion could be shunted into a siding or to use a more nautical analogy, be allowed to continue their debate in 'The Crows Nest' away from the rest of the sleeping or 'scrimshaw making' crew in the fo'c'sle.
They could alternatively use Private Messages, so as not to distract their erstwhile Shipmates.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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RdrEmCofE
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quote:
Seems to me that if it looks like a deceased equine, canters like a deceased equine and smells like a deceased equine....
Deceased equines do not canter, though diseased ones still may be able to.

While they are still on their feet and galloping or even trotting, they are not floggable and should not be dropped over the side from the yard arm and consigned to Davy Jones' locker.

What might 'look like', 'smell like', or even appear immobile like 'a dead horse', may only appear so to those who have decided they want no more whatever to do with horses.

I sympathise. Like The Duke of Edinburgh once said of Princess Ann. "If it does not fart and eat hay she has no interest in it'. I guess the opposite may be true for some people. If it farts and eats hay they have already lost interest.

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Love covers many sins. 1 Pet.4:8. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not holding their sins against them; 2 Cor.5:19

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Boogie

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# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by RdrEmCofE:
quote:
Another thought I had was whether we need somewhere for people to battle it out with long-winded and convoluted posts with biblical quotations. That's not quite Kerg, where the emphasis is on individual verses or chapters - but isn't Purg either, where we tend to get pretty bored of this kind of thing.
Now there a nice helpful thought Mr Cheesy. Perhaps once two thread contributors seem to the only one's interested enough to continue debate, the discussion could be shunted into a siding or to use a more nautical analogy, be allowed to continue their debate in 'The Crows Nest' away from the rest of the sleeping or 'scrimshaw making' crew in the fo'c'sle.
This has been mooted and booted before. What’s wrong with PMs for 121 conversations?

I think IngoB made the suggestion of a whole board for 121 discussions. Did we try it then boot it, I forget?

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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There's a difference - a huge difference - between topics that come up regularly (we can take credo- vs paedo-baptism as our example) and topics which spill out across the boards.

While we have threads on baptism, discussions on baptism tend not to turn up in threads on Brexit, Trump, the nature of prayer, or the various shades of evangelicalism. While baptism continues to corral itself, it's not a Dead Horse.

A better example of something that might be dragged to the knackers' yard is the relationship between Church and State. For a while, it very much had the potential to run across multiple threads all at the same time. 'Wise guidance' from H&As was able to bring the situation back towards manageable, and the subject avoided the glue factory. For now.

If you don't want to discuss baptism, you can avoid threads with baptism in the title. Creationism, inerrancy, and 'the gay agenda' are in DH for exactly the same reason - so that people who don't want to read about them can avoid them.

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Forward the New Republic

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

I think IngoB made the suggestion of a whole board for 121 discussions. Did we try it then boot it, I forget?

He did. I think he was mooting it as an eighth day topic at one point, but didn't have any takers.

One of his reasons for it was to defend against the "popular dogpile" where IngoB would stand and defend his particular brand of Catholic dogma against snipers from all directions.

And whilst I got his point, I wasn't convinced that his suggestion of a curated duel between him and a champion of an opposing viewpoint would improve the discussion.

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RdrEmCofE
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quote:
[Alan Cresswell] If that's what you think about people who hold different opinions to you then it's no surprise that you're not succeeding at holding a constructive and interesting discussion.
You speak as though there are no constructive or interesting discussions in Hell. Surprising that Hell threads seem always to be dominant in the Daily Threads section then, or is it that opinions are allowed there without them being wrongly labelled, "about people", rather than just being passionately held 'opinions' about subjects, such as doctrine, creeds, litergy, rubrics or any other subject?

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Love covers many sins. 1 Pet.4:8. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not holding their sins against them; 2 Cor.5:19

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
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Aye, we did have a duelling board for a while. We let Ingo define how he thought it should work, and then tried it out according to his recipe. IIRC, Ruth volunteered to host it [Overused]

The intention was to allow people to resolve differences, which he considered impossible in Hell (a point on which he may have been right, but Hell isn't designed to resolve differences). It failed to do anything that he claimed it would do, and was dropped. The experiment did lead to the creation of the 8D board for experimentation.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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Perhaps an appropriate thread for DH would be for n00bs who just know how the Ship should be navigated, in order to give those bothering to read it the benefit of their wisdom.

[Roll Eyes]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by RdrEmCofE:
quote:
[Alan Cresswell] If that's what you think about people who hold different opinions to you then it's no surprise that you're not succeeding at holding a constructive and interesting discussion.
You speak as though there are no constructive or interesting discussions in Hell. Surprising that Hell threads seem always to be dominant in the Daily Threads section then, or is it that opinions are allowed there without them being wrongly labelled, "about people", rather than just being passionately held 'opinions' about subjects, such as doctrine, creeds, litergy, rubrics or any other subject?
No. Personal insults never add to discussion, however cleverly they are couched.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
My vote: the deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament (or not of the Old Testament depending on whom you ask).

Far too obscure a subject to be a Dead Horse. Entrenched positions are one of the criteria for DH status, but not the only one.
Fair enough.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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RdrEmCofE
Shipmate
# 17511

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Yes Bishops Finger, your wisdom is duly noted and obeisance accorded by this nubie. [Overused] [Killing me]

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Love covers many sins. 1 Pet.4:8. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not holding their sins against them; 2 Cor.5:19

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Bishops Finger
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Did I mention names?

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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RdrEmCofE
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# 17511

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Just doing obeisance, as any nubie should. That's all.

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Love covers many sins. 1 Pet.4:8. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not holding their sins against them; 2 Cor.5:19

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by RdrEmCofE:
You speak as though there are no constructive or interesting discussions in Hell. Surprising that Hell threads seem always to be dominant in the Daily Threads section then, or is it that opinions are allowed there without them being wrongly labelled, "about people", rather than just being passionately held 'opinions' about subjects, such as doctrine, creeds, litergy, rubrics or any other subject?

You're allowed to be passionate about your chosen subject anywhere on the Ship, be it a particular style of baptism, gun control, or knitting.

What you're not allowed to do (outside of Hell) is tell the person who disagrees with you they're a dick for disagreeing with you. Attack the argument, not the person. If you can't do that, that's when you take it (or are taken) to Hell.

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Forward the New Republic

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RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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[Hosting]

Knock off the personal insults, or anything that might be construed as such. You'll know if you've messed up by your sudden inability to post anything any more - because there will be no more warnings.

-RooK
Styx Host

[/Hosting]

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RdrEmCofE
Shipmate
# 17511

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quote:
[Boogie] No. Personal insults never add to discussion, however cleverly they are couched.
I agree, a pearl of wisdom indeed. I invite anyone to read through all my posts and quote back at me every personal insult, clever or otherwise, that I have posted. Any takers?

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Love covers many sins. 1 Pet.4:8. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not holding their sins against them; 2 Cor.5:19

Posts: 255 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by RdrEmCofE:
[Boogie] No. Personal insults never add to discussion, however cleverly they are couched.

I agree, a pearl of wisdom indeed. I invite anyone to read through all my posts and quote back at me every personal insult, clever or otherwise, that I have posted. Any takers?

On this very thread. Names or no names, I know exactly who you are talking about. OK it stays just this side of the commandments, but that doesn’t make it any less insulting and most certainly didn’t add to this discussion.

quote:
Originally posted by RdrEmCofE:
...those who think they know everything there is to know about it already and whose jaded theological curiosity is restricted entirely to their own dogmatic bigotry and limited reading attention span.



[ 19. February 2018, 15:29: Message edited by: Boogie ]

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Garden. Room. Walk

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RdrEmCofE
Shipmate
# 17511

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Personal?

And I was talking about the debate on Re-Baptism that was closed.

[ 19. February 2018, 15:32: Message edited by: RdrEmCofE ]

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Love covers many sins. 1 Pet.4:8. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not holding their sins against them; 2 Cor.5:19

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by RdrEmCofE:
Personal?

Yes - as in insulting people.

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Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
RdrEmCofE
Shipmate
# 17511

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quote:
[Mr Cheesy] In fact, I think your "biblical" approach is utter bollocks and you wouldn't know constructive discussion if it but you around the face.

It isn't about "passion", it is about being a total dick when you blindly attempt to educate others.

Ahh. You mean like this!

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Love covers many sins. 1 Pet.4:8. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not holding their sins against them; 2 Cor.5:19

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mousethief

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# 953

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Ah so you can recognize it in others.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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Which thread does that quote come from?

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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Well, that's one suspension. Check back in 2 weeks RdrEmCofE.

I trust that the rest of you will be more circumspect.

Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

I'm in favour of such a refreshing of the subject list. Though, I suspect that in a lot of instances it would lead to a reduction in the number of subjects so listed (on the basis that they're now less likely to cause board-clutter or hostly headaches than 10 years ago) rather than add to them.

A formal proposal then.

Take Closed Communion off the list. Louise or John can correct me but I cannot find any thread specifically on that topic in the current short list of live threads, and I cannot remember the last time the topic was discussed.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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I'd be for the Rapture going on.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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It is the poster child for "no resolution this side of the afterlife".

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'd be for the Rapture going on.

We all eagerly await our Rapture to the New Ship [Big Grin]

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Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'd be for the Rapture going on.

Have you got a date for it going on?

ETA Woo, simultaneous (almost) post.

[ 19. February 2018, 18:51: Message edited by: balaam ]

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Last ever sig ...

blog

Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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Naturally. You just have to read all of this followed by this. Let the reader understand.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'd be for the Rapture going on.

Natch, hence this thread. Perhaps expanded to all speculation about the End Times.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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I was going to put End Times but I think that's a bit too broad.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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Especially as we seem to be living in (or moving towards) the said End Times....

[Help]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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[Help] indeed.

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Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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What's the current chance of Rapture?

Anyone know?

Anyone there ?

FFS, am I Left Behind on my own ?

Hmm...can't quite see that, somehow.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
What's the current chance of Rapture?

Anyone know?

Yes. Zero. HTH.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

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I do miss the "Current chance of rapture: %" numbers on the homepage. I hope Simon will bring that back in the new dispensation.

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I'm not dead yet.

Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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I couldn't find it either - hence my question above.

Yes, please let's have it back!

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged



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