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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Just a movie, just a book, just good reading (Dan Brown in general)
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tammierene
Apprentice
# 11405
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Posted
Good for Dan Brown. He jumped on the 'American Way' and made a buck..or two. The teachings of Jesus remain the same...whether you follow or don't follow, Dan Brown hasnt changed the Bible. Have you read Mr. Brown's posts to questions on his site? Go to http://www.danbrown.com and click on the FAQs. He never claims anything is fact..as reported, he claims the documents exist that he based the novel on. No biggie, he interpreted or he got an idea for a book. Good for him. Ive read books on Christopher Columbus that I figure may or may not be fact too. From what I've heard, so far, the movie, nor the book, claim to be a documentary. It's fiction...and damn good reading. Stephen King throws actual events and such in his books too, but no one jumps him for it. If you put aside trying to believe or not believe or disprove a work of fiction, you may find it is darn good reading. Ive read all of Mr. Brown's books. I enjoyed them all. At no time did I confuse reality with fiction. I feel there is nothing wrong with healthy discussion about possibilities and other points of view. However, if you are deep in the Christian faith and the Da Vinci Code can shake your faith/view....you had issues before the book/movie.
[ 17. May 2006, 21:14: Message edited by: Louise ]
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Don't sweat the small stuff.
Posts: 6 | Registered: May 2006
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Welcome to the ship, TR. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) I pretty much agree with you.
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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noneen
Shipmate
# 11023
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Posted
welcome to the ship Tammierene !!
up until today i would have agreed with you on this topic ... i felt that we were getting all wound up and offering publicity to the film.
Today however i was listening to the radio which had a 'first review of the film' thing going on. They had asked a priest and a film critic to see it.
The film critic said two things :
Firstly the church should stop giving out and being so silly about it all (that we are all mature enough to distinguish between fact and fiction was her point), and then
Secondly, that this book just expressed the 'zietgeist'of the moment. That people all knew that the church oppressed and oppresses women and that 'they' all covered up paedophilia too. So people liked the book cause it expressed peoples feelings about church.
I agreed with the first point, but the second one threw me for six ...?!?! I was a bit stunned that she equated a fictional novel with a critical analysis of the church ... especially seeing as she felt mature enough to distinguish between fact and fiction !!!
but no one challenged her, no one asked her to develop those thoughts .... they just moved on.
And i was left wondering if 'not speaking the truth loudly' was in fact allowing such untruths to become percieved as truth ?!?!
Now, I'm not for starting a campaign or even for holding talks on themes and all that ... but i do wonder how many 'mature adults' will buy into the story told here as true.
As one student said recently 'well its actually easier to believe what Dan Brown is saying than to believe what 'ye' would have us believe' !!!!!
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... 'but Father, Jesus drank wine at Cana and danced' ... 'Not in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, he didn't', Father replied
Posts: 472 | From: ireland | Registered: Feb 2006
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tammierene
Apprentice
# 11405
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Posted
It could also be said that Christianity expects 'mature adults' to believe the Bible. Goodness knows countless numbers of people have picked it apart in the same way they have The Da Vinci Code. It still seems that a secure Christian will applaud Mr. Brown and be on his way. I think it's great when people stand up in defense of their religious beliefs; someone probably should have reminded the person doing the interview that its a novel of fiction. On the other hand, it seems like people are yelling FIRE where there isnt even any smoke. Then again, on an even brighter side (for Mr. Brown), look at the billions of dollars of free advertising he's getting out of this!! HA!
I wonder if this whole thing has generated Bible sales too.
*Ponder this* Jesus seemed like a pretty peaceful easy going guy. Could he have possibly been married and been that easy going? HA!!! ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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Don't sweat the small stuff.
Posts: 6 | Registered: May 2006
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
Hi Folks,
we're starting to get some thread overlap here, so I've labelled up a few of the pre-existing threads to make their topics more obvious to newcomers. Can this thread be kept for general discussion of Dan Brown as an author - there are separate threads for the film, and various threads discussing aspects of the book. Despite its title Haven't Read It, Never Will has been the main discussion thread for the book in general. There's now a new thread for the film since its release.
If two threads overlap too much, then one will be closed.
cheers,
Louise
DVC Board Host
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Anselm
Shipmate
# 4499
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tammierene:
Dan Brown hasnt changed the Bible. Have you read Mr. Brown's posts to questions on his site? Go to http://www.danbrown.com and click on the FAQs. He never claims anything is fact..as reported, he claims the documents exist that he based the novel on. No biggie, he interpreted or he got an idea for a book.
....
Stephen King throws actual events and such in his books too, but no one jumps him for it. If you put aside trying to believe or not believe or disprove a work of fiction, you may find it is darn good reading. Ive read all of Mr. Brown's books. I enjoyed them all. At no time did I confuse reality with fiction. I feel there is nothing wrong with healthy discussion about possibilities and other points of view. However, if you are deep in the Christian faith and the Da Vinci Code can shake your faith/view....you had issues before the book/movie.
From my reading of the Q&A section of Dan Brown's website he believes that the book is a work of fiction but he belives the extraordinary theories that lie behind the narrative of the book.
IME the theories that are contained in the novel are being widely believed by people reading the book. I don't think that it is very surprising at all that the church and other organisations feel the need to point out the flaws in the theories laid out in the DVC.
Personally I think it provides a good opportunity to chat about the history of the Christian faith - who would have thought that Church history would become a topic of popular culture!!
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carpe diem domini
...seize the day to play dominoes?
Posts: 2544 | From: The Scriptorium | Registered: May 2003
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noneen
Shipmate
# 11023
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Posted
I never had an issue with the book as a work of fiction - i lent it to loads of friends, as i do with all my books!). The issue I have is with the hype surrounding the film, and with the number of gullible people who have read the book and now think they know stuff about Templar Knights. (Apparently one in 6 canadians think that the account is historically true, and 60% of people who have read the book believe Mary and Jesus were married!!!)
One of the annoying things about Dan Brown and this work of fiction is that he claims certain untruths to be facts, and that any time anyone challenges any of the 'facts' in his book we get told:
- you're being all defensive
- its only fiction
- dan brown did loads of research and he wears a tweed coat, and his wife is an art historian (i believe that she has an interest in this, but isn't actually qualified in the area!)
In other words, only defensive, argumentative or ignorant people would argue with this. (and none of us want to be taken for defensive, argumentative, ignorant people do we!!! ![[Biased]](wink.gif) !)
I understand what you're saying tammierene, but i ask you to consider the statements that you've made - namely :
quote:
Ive read all of Mr. Brown's books. I enjoyed them all. At no time did I confuse reality with fiction.
quote:
...if you are deep in the Christian faith and the Da Vinci Code can shake your faith/view.... you had issues before the book/movie.
quote:
It still seems that a secure Christian will applaud Mr. Brown and be on his way.
(bold added by me to emphasise my point!) I've said much the same to others before, so i know you didn't mean any harm ... but can you see what is implied - however unintentionally!! This is why I agree with Anselm when he says:
quote:
IME the theories that are contained in the novel are being widely believed by people reading the book.
If Dan Brown ever acknowledges that the 'facts' he uses in his work of fiction are actually historically incorrect, then i will happily move on. However, his three point 'statement of fact' at the start of the book says that all artwork, all descriptions etc are true
Now, initially i told myself that that page was part of the fiction, but i am getting increasingly annoyed at the number of people who think the Priory of Sion is real because there are secret papers in a French library which list Newton and Leonardo as old 'heads'!!!! (everyone involved knows the pages are a 1950's fraud - Brown refuses to comment ... cause he's a reclusive genius author y'know!)
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... 'but Father, Jesus drank wine at Cana and danced' ... 'Not in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, he didn't', Father replied
Posts: 472 | From: ireland | Registered: Feb 2006
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
I agree that the figures on what people believe having read the book are very disturbing. I heard some similar ones about Opus Dei, the RCC, etc the other day, comparing the opinions of a group of people who had read the book with a control group who hadn't. It found, IIRC, that those who had read the book were about 4 times more likely to believe that Jesus had married Mary, that the church had deliberately covered this up, etc. Very disturbing.
As you say, though, the problem is one of protesting too much. I've heard calls for the film to be banned in the last few days, which is absolutely ridiculous, except possibly on the grounds of artistic merit. Surely, the best thing we can do is to follow ++Rowan's example, and treat these daft (and, let it be noted, completely unfounded) conspiracy theories with the detached contempt they deserve.
Alternatively, maybe the church should be exploiting this fascination with huge global conspiracies. Has anyone considered writing a novel in the same sort of style as TDVC, telling the gospel narrative of the Roman and Jewish authorities conspiring to have Jesus killed?
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Stumbling Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 7637
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by noneen:
dan brown did loads of research and he wears a tweed coat, and his wife is an art historian (i believe that she has an interest in this, but isn't actually qualified in the area!)
(I know it isn't you saying this, noneen)
From reading the judge's statement after the recent court case, it seems that it was actually his wife who did the research, and that said research consisted of reading a few books, including HBHG, making notes and depositing same on his desk as he worked on the novel. The judge made some pointed remarks about what a pity it was that Mrs Brown wasn't present in court to answer questions. And in turn, I can't help thinking what a pity it is most people won't have read the judgement.
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Stumbling in the Master's footsteps as best I can.
Posts: 492 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2004
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tammierene
Apprentice
# 11405
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Posted
Hey ya Noneen! I think we are actually agreeing on all counts here. I am never for anyone picking up any book, 'fact' or fiction and believing it. When I find a subject matter that I feel needs investigating, I try and read and research. I know most poeple don't, but they should. I truly think it is sad that so many people take DVC as fact. I still can't fault Brown for being vague. He's an author makin' a buck. He got this going, so now he's going ride it for all it's worth. I think the churches SHOULD speak, if only to point out to their followers that its a bunch of bunk and not to take it too seriously.
Im confused about what I was implying with my statements. The use of YOUR was a generalization. I speak those statements from personal experience. My faith/views/beliefs will never be shaken ever for the rest of my life. Im content and comfortable (which took decades to get to) and I simply meant that from that perspective no work of fiction could possibly make me question. I guess I just think everyone should feel that way...I know I know, not reality.
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Don't sweat the small stuff.
Posts: 6 | Registered: May 2006
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noneen
Shipmate
# 11023
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Posted
Stumbling pilgrim wrote: quote:
(I know it isn't you saying this, noneen)
From reading the judge's statement after the recent court case, it seems that it was actually his wife who did the research, and that said research consisted of reading a few books, including HBHG, making notes and depositing same on his desk as he worked on the novel. The judge made some pointed remarks about what a pity it was that Mrs Brown wasn't present in court to answer questions. And in turn, I can't help thinking what a pity it is most people won't have read the judgement.
thanks SP - i had heard a lot of that but didn't want to go off tangent on my particular rant !!!! ... but, yep, its true that apparently Dan Brown only has one book on Leonardo de Vinci in his home!!!!!!!!!
I think it says loads about the man that he loudly acknowledges his pride in and love of strong women, while at the same time ... he went into the court case and said 'twas the woman's fault your honour' .... she gave me the apple (i mean the research) .... ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Tammy - sorry if i implied that you personally thought negatively of those who argue about the DVC - i meant it in general terms ... that such language can be a straightjacket preventing others from expressing their opinions.
Like the great gumby i have no interest in people who want to organise protests and ban the film (thats madness).
But i also want the freedom to argue that the effects of this book are an increase in ignorance, prejudice and arrognace. The book does everything it claims to dislike IMO!!!
PS - has anyone ever heard of a symboligist ?!?!
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... 'but Father, Jesus drank wine at Cana and danced' ... 'Not in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, he didn't', Father replied
Posts: 472 | From: ireland | Registered: Feb 2006
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by noneen:
PS - has anyone ever heard of a symboligist ?!?!
I'm sure there's a copy of my symbology vs semiotics rant somewhere on this board.
For the record, it's all a load of symbollocks.
T.
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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GrahamR
Shipmate
# 11299
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
I agree that the figures on what people believe having read the book are very disturbing.
In today's Guardian:
quote:
Scarily, an ORB survey revealed that people who have read The Da Vinci Code are twice as likely to believe that Jesus Christ fathered children, and four times as likely to think the conservative Catholic group Opus Dei is a murderous sect.
![[Confused]](confused.gif) ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
As you say, though, the problem is one of protesting too much.
A church near me is doing a 4 evening "Decoding Da Vinci: The quest for facts among fiction" event
quote:
Quality refreshments, code-breaking quizzes, documentary footage and intereactive discussions in an informal and relaxed setting.
As they haven't started yet I don't know, but this seems to me to take the right approach- given the survey I don't think we should just ignore it and hope it goes away, but use it to tell people about Christianity, without doing anything daft like calling for it to be banned (and if the reviewers are right the film's even worse than the book anyway!!).
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My blog - theology, archaeology, science
Posts: 184 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2006
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
To add a thoroughly frivolous (but, IMHO, completely appropriate) note to the discussion of Dan Brown as an author ... who has seen this link ? It's fun. Apologies if anyone posted this in another thread and I missed it.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Cymruambyth
Shipmate
# 10887
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Posted
To cut to the chase, with regard to Mr. brown's abilities as a writer: I wouldn't class him as a great writer - or even a good one! His characters are two-dimensional at best, He doesn't do thorough research (he makes sloppy mistakes in geography, art, and religious references), he writes far too much dialogue, and, if I had to place him in a particular genre , I'd define him as a pulp-fiction writer of potboilers. My rule of thumb, when judging the quality of a book and its writing, is whether or not the characters/plot/action etc. are as vivid six months after I finished the book as they were when I was reading it. None of Mr. Brown's books have met my standard - but then, neither does Margaret Atwood, and she's a Booker prize winner!
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"Tradition is the living faith of the dead; traditionalism is the dead faith of the living." Jaroslav Pelikan
Posts: 556 | From: The True North Strong and Free | Registered: Jan 2006
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Pewgilist
Shipmate
# 3445
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Posted
"Just good reading"? Maybe, but it's plain terrible writing, controversy and blunders aside.
"Outrageous!" you say. "That's just a matter of taste.", you might add. Sometimes, yes. In this case, no. The fact is, the man just can't use English very effectively. Allow me to demonstrate using several examples from the pages I just finished reading:
"... flanked by two suits of chain mail armour ... " p. 245
- Since when do suits of armour come in mail? Mail coifs, mail hauberks, mail gauntlets, yes. But entire suits? No, not that this medeivalist geek has ever seen in book or museum.
"Portly and ruby faced ..." p. 246
- "ruby faced?" Am I the only one who thinks he mean "ruddy faced?"
"hand-laid cobblestone." p. 244
- well, for God's sake, what other kind is there? I mean, what, machine-laid cobblestone?
"... the rose had close ties to the concept of "true direction" and navigating one's way." p. 220
- gratingly awkward
Teabing's "exquisitely adorned drawing room" has a "rough hewn fireplace large enough to roast an ox." pp. 244-245.
- just seems a weird thing to have in a drawing room, unless your idea of European architecture comes from Disney movies.
And one favourite from earlier on:
" ... a renowned penchant for privacy." p. 24
- one might be well-known, famous or even infamous for a penchant, but I can hardly imagine one being "renowned."
Just bad writing by any standard. So how is it that so many people find it "good reading?" I ask in all earnestness (though with an idea or two of my own).
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Pewgilist
Hamilton, Ontario
Posts: 126 | From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2002
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
To expand this discussion a little, I have just finished one of his other books, Digital Fortress. As it covers areas that I know about, I can judge far better how accurate or otherwise he is.
What struck me is that he obviously hasn't got a clue about what he is writing about there. The story is around cryptography and computer security ( I won't way any more ), but he clearly hasn't got the first idea of either. His complete lack of understanding of computer technology was frustrating in the least. Despite the fact that they had the best minds on the planet there, they still made mistakes taht I could see in moments.
And at the denoument, I had identified the answer quite a bit before they had, which makes me wonder just how clever they are. That they can instantly give a visual representation of hacker attacks on their database, but not work out a basic puzzle astounded me, and led me to believe in them rather less.
But it was a fair read, as pulp fiction goes. Not good, but OK. I suspect, if I were a theological/historian I would find the same immediate issues with DVC. As it is, when I read it, I couldn't take it seriously, but without the immediate recognition of major fallacies, I could say why I rejected it.
So, on the basis of 2 books, I am unimpressed by DB as an author. As a hype merchant, he is the best since von Daniken.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
And at the denoument, I had identified the answer quite a bit before they had, which makes me wonder just how clever they are.
I think that is actually part of the attraction. The characters are slow, so the reader can feel clever by beating them, thus massaging their egos.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Petaflop
Shipmate
# 9804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
To expand this discussion a little, I have just finished one of his other books, Digital Fortress. As it covers areas that I know about, I can judge far better how accurate or otherwise he is.
What struck me is that he obviously hasn't got a clue about what he is writing about there.
...
But it was a fair read, as pulp fiction goes. Not good, but OK.
...
So, on the basis of 2 books, I am unimpressed by DB as an author. As a hype merchant, he is the best since von Daniken.
You have my respect for finishing it. I also know enough crytography to find the pseudo-science intolerable, but I also found the characters so dull and one dimensional that I didn't get past the first 6 chapters.
I have nothing against science fiction, FTL travel, teleportation, magic or whatever as topics for fiction. But a book has to work within its own rules. If a book draws heavily from real-world, modern-day background, then it needs to play by those rules. DB failed miserably in Digital Fortress.
I do have to acknowledge that DVC is doing something clever though, even if it is not literature.
Posts: 650 | Registered: Jul 2005
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
I read DVC because I thought I ought to. It's OK, but I'm not tempted to read any of his others
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
To expand this discussion a little, I have just finished one of his other books, Digital Fortress. As it covers areas that I know about, I can judge far better how accurate or otherwise he is.
DF is possibly the one book where I was put completely off reading it by the first sentence of the blurb. In a few years if I've just been sacked, I may read it to convince myself how superior I am, but apart from that...
![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
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