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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Teenagers & YA in Anglo-Catholic Parishes
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
Hi,
So I have been having discussions with some clergy around youth programs and keeping children in church. One particular issue that came up was in nose bleed high Anglican churches how do you make(keep?) that relevant to young people?
I'm not from quite that high a tradition but do acknowledge that the evangelical church seems better suited or more attractive to teenagers and the under 25s.
Will Anglo-catholic churches die out from "lack of relevance to young people"?
Does anybody have any examples of such churches engaging well with young people or of particular programs or activities that sit well with "youth" and high church sensibilities?
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
The young people from my parents' church (a group of about 10, I think) thoroughly enjoyed their camping trip to Walsingham. I think where Anglo-Catholic churches can win is the number of opportunities for participation. Between the choir and the altar party there are a lot of things to be done, and giving young people responsibility can make them feel more of a part of things. Well run choirs, in particular, can bring large numbers of young people to faith. Often people whose parents don't regularly attend.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
The young people I noticed who are involved in Anglo-catholic parishes who are not preparing for ordained ministry tend to be attracted to social justice ministry and by in large, are very politically aware and active.
Anglo-catholics might advertise itself more to young people who are both social justice-inclined and yearn for spirituality.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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RainbowGirl
Apprentice
# 18543
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Posted
I come from the opposite end. As a teenager and now 'young adult' in the church I crave the tradition of Anglo-Catholicism as does a lot of my peer group.
Have a look at Taize services, which tend to cater to a younger crowd. Bible studies that look to the deeper background and context also go down well. You don't need the trappings of live bands and energetic speakers to stay relevant, as long as you are reaching their faith and feeding their spirituality. That said, they do have their place, but its the core truth that matters most of all.
The youth group I work with at the moment is in an Anglo-Catholic parish (I was in an Evangelical one before this) and it blew me away how the kids responded to simple things like praying and lighting candles at the end of the Bible study. When it comes to games, food and bible study there's very little difference between evangelical and anglo-catholic youth groups, it's only the services that differ, and even then they still share many similarities.
Posts: 32 | From: Australia | Registered: Jan 2016
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
This site may be on interest to you. There are annual youth conferences in various parts of the United States for Anglo-Catholic youth.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I find that people move through different styles of worship at different ages. When I was a teenager I was about as evangelical as it was possible to be. Then as a young parent I was very middle of the road. Now as a senior citizen I crave the thoughtfulness and reverence I find in my Anglo Catholic Church. I'm inclined to think that it is difficult to make one size fits all and maybe it doesn't matter that the young want a different style of worship than we older worshippers. I certainly couldn't go back to the church of my youth and I can accept that the young do not want to attend my church in great numbers, but maybe they will choose to try it in a few years time. (After all, I refused to eat broccoli as a child, but these days I love it.)
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
About twelve years ago we were in the process of electing a new Bishop. The four finalists came around on the usual dog-and-pony show. Each candidate was asked (individually -- they were divided among four groups and then changed groups every fifteen minutes or whatever) what he would do to attract the youth. Three of them mentioned getting out the guitars and drum kits. Our current Bishop said that he was then living in an area with several colleges and universities. His church started offering Evensong on Sundays. They attracted quite a number of college-age young adults who liked the mystical feel of the incense, the chanting, etc.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
It's half a century since I was that sort of age. Until part way through my time at University I wasn't terribly interested in Christian faith, and did not want to be. Anglo-Catholicism was at a complacent and somewhat moribund node on its historical trajectory.
Not only are times different. It's also difficult to imagine oneself that age again. It's harder still to work out what grips people that age now - despite the fact that I try quite hard to do so. However, I can't imagine that there would have been anything about that tradition that would have had any resonance or appeal, neither for me nor for virtually any of the people I mixed with.
So, I'd be inclined to say that if you are one of those who thinks that it is important to present a 'party' expression of Christianity, if Anglo-Catholicism is what lights your candle, and if you'd like to share it with the younger generation, make sure the version of it you present has moved as far as possible from a yearning for the 1920s, Percy Dearmer and an obsession with liturgical or sartorial minutiae.
The evangelicalism that was the 'normal' version of Christianity one encountered when I was at University was a bit narrow. Looking back, I think that's also an inherent failing of being that age. However, the two impressive things it did have, as it was then, which Anglo-Catholicism, again as it presented itself then, did not, were personal engagement with God and an intellectual rigour.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
Thanks all, interesting variety of comments to think about.
Enoch, I agree re the 1920s, but rather feel that in my neck of the woods anyway, Evangelicalism is stuck in a 1950s-1970s mindset and that can only last so long. I pray that there will be new expressions of faith that are appropriate to the early 21st century, that build on Anglo-catholic and Evangelical traditions.
As far as evangelicalism goes, I find it has intellectual rigor mortis as opposed to intellectual rigour! The worst part about that is that they still cling to the notion that they are intellectual when they're really unable to think for themselves and stuck in an 1850s mindset.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
The information I have been seeing says millennials and their younger peers are not as turned on a guitar and drum show as their parents were.
Instead they seen to like a more participatory worship with a mix of new hymns and traditional hymns.
They also like a church that is not hypocritical and is accepting of all people--that is open and affirming.
Social justice has been mentioned. They are also concerned about climate change issues.
They want to be able to ask the hard questions as well without fear of reprisal. They want to be able to share their doubts as well as their hopes.
In many ways, when I read these studies, I think there is a good opportunity for more mainline churches to reach out to the 20 somethings.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
Considering the growth of the FSSP and the traditional Latin Mass movement has been greatest among young people, I would definitely question some of the assumptions made here.
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Yes indeed, and I do so wish Our Place (backstreet A-C, with 2000 students out of a parish population of 6000) could become inclusive.
Instead, we are currently held to ransom by Father F***wit and a few other anti-gay, anti-OOW etc. types. Father F. retires soon (he who says 'I'm OK with Wimmin, as long as they keep their pinafores on, and stay in the kitchen'), so with the help of the Grace of God, things may change...
Meanwhile, we have a small number of young people of various ages from 5 to 14+, some of whom attend on Sundays, and others who attend our monthly 'Crafty Church', so there is at least some scope for future pastoral work - as long as we get a new priest who will encourage the current lay-led initiatives!
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
My last post was in answer to Gramps49, but I take Ceremoniar's point regarding the more trad forms of the Roman Mass.
There may be a point, also, about peer pressure. If only 2 or 3 young people attend an A-C church, it may be hard for them to invite their friends along. OTOH, if there's a much larger group at the local char-evo shack, it must surely be easier. Birds of a feather etc.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
... Enoch, I agree re the 1920s, but rather feel that in my neck of the woods anyway, Evangelicalism is stuck in a 1950s-1970s mindset and that can only last so long.
Evangeline, I take that point, but this was in the middle of that period! quote:
I pray that there will be new expressions of faith that are appropriate to the early 21st century, that build on Anglo-catholic and Evangelical traditions.
I'd agree if you were to say that existing expressions have become somewhat tired and either complacent or a bit time-serving. It may just be a symptom of age but I think the latter description applies to a lot of what presents itself as 'the Christian music scene'. We need to find new ways of expressing our faith that understands that Christian faith is something that goes a lot deeper than just being a poor imitation of various styles of pop music.
My suspicion is that new monasticism may have something to offer, but the trouble is, that I'm not a young person any more. So it's as hard for me to tell what resonates for them as it was for our parents and grandparents to tell in 1965.
quote:
As far as evangelicalism goes, I find it has intellectual rigor mortis as opposed to intellectual rigour! The worst part about that is that they still cling to the notion that they are intellectual when they're really unable to think for themselves and stuck in an 1850s mindset.
Evangeline, I think you've got the wrong date there. It might have been fair comment about evangelicalism in 1950. It might even be a fair criticism of some of the odder areas of evangelical theology now. But in the 1960s it had suddenly developed into quite an intellectually and spiritually stimulating alternative to both 1950s South Bank theology and the shallowness and facile optimism of secular sixties trendiness.
The trouble for me now, is that although my own grandchildren happen to be younger, when the typical teenager looks at me, they don't even see their parents. They see their grandparents. I can say what would have had no appeal for me when I was their age. Anglo-Catholicism as it has habitually been throughout my lifetime certainly fills that bucket. It's a very hard exercise, though, for me to imagine what will reach people who are that age now.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
....their camping trip to Walsingham....
I always had the impression that most trips to Walsingham were camping trips, one way or another.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Considering the growth of the FSSP and the traditional Latin Mass movement has been greatest among young people, I would definitely question some of the assumptions made here.
I'm not going to dispute the accuracy of this claim, but I've only ever seen it backed up by anecdote. Is there any data available?
And is it growth by transfer, or from outside?
And is it happening anywhere other than in the USA/the English speaking world? (France?)
Posts: 405 | Registered: Jun 2003
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
....their camping trip to Walsingham....
I always had the impression that most trips to Walsingham were camping trips, one way or another.
I don't know what you're implying. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
....their camping trip to Walsingham....
I always had the impression that most trips to Walsingham were camping trips, one way or another.
That gets a ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Evangeline, I think you've got the wrong date there. It might have been fair comment about evangelicalism in 1950. It might even be a fair criticism of some of the odder areas of evangelical theology now. But in the 1960s it had suddenly developed into quite an intellectually and spiritually stimulating alternative to both 1950s South Bank theology and the shallowness and facile optimism of secular sixties trendiness.
The trouble for me now, is that although my own grandchildren happen to be younger, when the typical teenager looks at me, they don't even see their parents. They see their grandparents. I can say what would have had no appeal for me when I was their age. Anglo-Catholicism as it has habitually been throughout my lifetime certainly fills that bucket. It's a very hard exercise, though, for me to imagine what will reach people who are that age now. [/QB]
My date was a slightly random, probably exaggerated one reflecting my own strange little corner of evangelical weirdness in Sydney. There is certainly a lot of Evangelical scholarship around, I just find much of it is failing to engage with the 21st century. THat's not to say that other traditions are necessarily doing any better. Sometimes as I sit in lectures at my evo bible college I think that much of it is stuck in a post-Enlightenment world, of we're going to be "rational" and explain everything as though religion is a science rather than the strange, metaphysical notion of people relating to God and vice versa.
It's also a long time since I was a teenager but I think it behoves church leadership and for that matter, all with an interest in the survival of Christianity to think about how we can help young people engage with faith.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
Oh, another excuse for an outing for this video
How great is that? It's a difficult thing to do something like that without it being either excruciatingly embarrassing or nastily tongue in cheek & what a good sport the priest at the end is, totally uncomfortable but taking part, LOL.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
Oh, another excuse for an outing for this video
How great is that? It's a difficult thing to do something like that without it being either excruciatingly embarrassing or nastily tongue in cheek & what a good sport the priest at the end is, totally uncomfortable but taking part, LOL.
I believe he's their Bishop?
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
Oh, another excuse for an outing for this video
How great is that? It's a difficult thing to do something like that without it being either excruciatingly embarrassing or nastily tongue in cheek & what a good sport the priest at the end is, totally uncomfortable but taking part, LOL.
I believe he's their Bishop?
Yeah, I guess he would be in purple. See I live in Sydney and these things just pass me by. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Hilda of Whitby
Shipmate
# 7341
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
Oh, another excuse for an outing for this video
I admit, this choked me up. I thought it was touching and funny. Thanks for re-posting it.
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"Born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad."
Posts: 412 | From: Nickel City | Registered: Jun 2004
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
I did a brief stint in youth ministry at an Episcopal church that was not necessarily Anglo-Catholic, but certainly further up the candle both theologically and liturgically than suburban churches with similarly sized youth groups.
One of the challenges was that a lot of the materials that were published for youth ministry, at least in the States, came from non-denominational evangelical groups. That tended to color the way that a lot of youth groups operated, and the way that the diocesan events happened. There would be a praise band which sang songs from Christian radio, and the biggest emotional moment was the opportunity to pray with one of the leaders and ask for a closer personal relationship with Jesus.
Our kids hated it. Well, they loved the swimming pool and disc golf course at the camp where the event happened (don't think that AC kids won't want to play games), but they were always conspicuously hiding in the corner, a little uncomfortable with the crying and hand waiving around us.
The model they were used to was the camp that our church put on ever summer. That model involved daily morning prayer, nightly compline, and several Eucharists throughout the week, woven throughout long days of games, crafts, lessons, and quite a few food fights. They weren't always excited about praying that much, but if we ever doubted that they got anything out of it, we got our answer when they pulled us aside at a diocesan event and asked to say compline together.
So I would say that there are opportunities, you just sometimes have to make up your own materials, because the charismatic Evangelical model is such a huge presence that it sometimes gets treated as the only way.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TomM:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Considering the growth of the FSSP and the traditional Latin Mass movement has been greatest among young people, I would definitely question some of the assumptions made here.
I'm not going to dispute the accuracy of this claim, but I've only ever seen it backed up by anecdote. Is there any data available?
And is it growth by transfer, or from outside?
And is it happening anywhere other than in the USA/the English speaking world? (France?)
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2015/11/for-record-latest-fssp-statistics.html
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
...the evangelical church seems better suited or more attractive to teenagers and the under 25s...
I'm not particularly comfortable with this sentiment.
(By which I mean "I think this is completely untrue"!)
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
An Englishman, Bob Jackson, has written a lot about church growth. He says that there is no evidence that young people shy away from formal liturgical worship - and in fact what the evidence there is is in the opposite direction.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
...the evangelical church seems better suited or more attractive to teenagers and the under 25s...
I'm not particularly comfortable with this sentiment.
(By which I mean "I think this is completely untrue"!)
Well that's great, care to elaborate as per my OP that you selectively quoted, I asked for any examples of[anglo-catholic] churches engaging well with young people or of particular programs or activities that sit well with "youth" and high church sensibilities?
GeeD I'll try to find that author.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
...the evangelical church seems better suited or more attractive to teenagers and the under 25s...
I'm not particularly comfortable with this sentiment.
(By which I mean "I think this is completely untrue"!)
Well that's great, care to elaborate as per my OP that you selectively quoted, I asked for any examples of[anglo-catholic] churches engaging well with young people or of particular programs or activities that sit well with "youth" and high church sensibilities?
GeeD I'll try to find that author.
Depends on how you define "young" - Pusey House and Mary Mags in Oxford do very well with the 18-21s, but then I suppose that is Oxford...
Pusey House did it in my time (previous decade really) by fostering a sense of routine and community - daily mass, weekly supper club followed by compline and benediction, Stuckey Coles society for cocktails and parties, Holy Week Triduum retreat at Ascot Priory, excellent choir, New English Hymnal, sherry after high mass on a Sunday (champagne in the summer). I mean, very Oxford, but they were getting it right for their location and constituency....
Personally, they had me at no sharing of the peace beyond "and also with you."
[ 29. November 2016, 04:54: Message edited by: betjemaniac ]
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
...the evangelical church seems better suited or more attractive to teenagers and the under 25s...
I'm not particularly comfortable with this sentiment.
(By which I mean "I think this is completely untrue"!)
Well that's great, care to elaborate as per my OP that you selectively quoted, I asked for any examples of[anglo-catholic] churches engaging well with young people or of particular programs or activities that sit well with "youth" and high church sensibilities?
GeeD I'll try to find that author.
Depends on how you define "young" - Pusey House and Mary Mags in Oxford do very well with the 18-21s, but then I suppose that is Oxford...
Pusey House did it in my time (previous decade really) by fostering a sense of routine and community - daily mass, weekly supper club followed by compline and benediction, Stuckey Coles society for cocktails and parties, Holy Week Triduum retreat at Ascot Priory, excellent choir, New English Hymnal, sherry after high mass on a Sunday (champagne in the summer). I mean, very Oxford, but they were getting it right for their location and constituency....
Personally, they had me at no sharing of the peace beyond "and also with you."
Haha, interesting. Community is definitely a big thing & a sense of holiness I'm thinking. I'm liking the alcohol theme too, although not considered kosher round these parts. In an Australian context, maybe a barbie 'n' beers after high mass. Just doesn't have the same ring to it does it?
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Particularly given what passes for beer in Australia ... Although I'm told that things are beginning to improve ...
On the issue of young adults and liturgical forms of worship, I keep hearing that teens and 20 somethings aren't indifferent to it, but I've never seen any evidence of that with my own eyes.
I'm sure it might be different in Oxford or in cathedral cities, but I've not seen it. I've heard in the Chester Diocese that the only significant groups of teens or young adults are exclusively involved with the more evangelical parishes, in what is a largely evangelical/MoTR diocese.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
quote:
Originally posted by TomM:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Considering the growth of the FSSP and the traditional Latin Mass movement has been greatest among young people, I would definitely question some of the assumptions made here.
I'm not going to dispute the accuracy of this claim, but I've only ever seen it backed up by anecdote. Is there any data available?
And is it growth by transfer, or from outside?
And is it happening anywhere other than in the USA/the English speaking world? (France?)
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2015/11/for-record-latest-fssp-statistics.html
In the context of the Catholic Church as a whole, 262 priests isn't particularly significant. And nothing in there says anything about growth in congregations. Being only a priestly body, FSSP data will not do that.
In comparison, many Church of England dioceses that ordain about the same number each year (15ish) continue to have attendance graphs that look like cliffs. (Shallow cliffs granted, but decline all the same).
The point remains unproven.
Posts: 405 | Registered: Jun 2003
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Particularly given what passes for beer in Australia ... Although I'm told that things are beginning to improve ...
On the issue of young adults and liturgical forms of worship, I keep hearing that teens and 20 somethings aren't indifferent to it, but I've never seen any evidence of that with my own eyes.
I'm sure it might be different in Oxford or in cathedral cities, but I've not seen it. I've heard in the Chester Diocese that the only significant groups of teens or young adults are exclusively involved with the more evangelical parishes, in what is a largely evangelical/MoTR diocese.
Same here. All the liturgical churches have congregations with an average age in the 60s or higher and anyone under 50 really sticks out like a sore thumb. Perhaps it's different elsewhere, but it's interesting that your experience matches mine.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TomM:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
quote:
Originally posted by TomM:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Considering the growth of the FSSP and the traditional Latin Mass movement has been greatest among young people, I would definitely question some of the assumptions made here.
I'm not going to dispute the accuracy of this claim, but I've only ever seen it backed up by anecdote. Is there any data available?
And is it growth by transfer, or from outside?
And is it happening anywhere other than in the USA/the English speaking world? (France?)
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2015/11/for-record-latest-fssp-statistics.html
In the context of the Catholic Church as a whole, 262 priests isn't particularly significant. And nothing in there says anything about growth in congregations. Being only a priestly body, FSSP data will not do that.
In comparison, many Church of England dioceses that ordain about the same number each year (15ish) continue to have attendance graphs that look like cliffs. (Shallow cliffs granted, but decline all the same).
The point remains unproven.
When considered from the standpoint of growth of a movement, one notices that the Fraternity, in just over 25 years since its founding, grown from a dozen priests and twenty seminarians to a couple hundred of each, with another dozen ordinations next year, and plenty more on the way. Quite significantly, the average age of their priests is only 38. They built the first all-new, full-sized, from-the-ground-up seminary in North America in many decades. Few other orders could boast anything even remotely resembling this, in a comparable time. And the Institute of Christ the King, Sovereign Priest is also doing well--another entity that started from scratch. Both orders have continually increased the number of dioceses in which they have a presence, and the number of apostolates they have. Both orders regularly train diocesan priests to celebrate the Traditional Mass, and the number of locations where the old rite is celebrated has increased every year since the 1990s. Like all but the very largest orders, their numbers are small, relative to the entire Church, but their continual and significant growth is most notable.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've heard in the Chester Diocese that the only significant groups of teens or young adults are exclusively involved with the more evangelical parishes, in what is a largely evangelical/MoTR diocese.
Same here. All the liturgical churches have congregations with an average age in the 60s or higher and anyone under 50 really sticks out like a sore thumb. Perhaps it's different elsewhere, but it's interesting that your experience matches mine.
It's more a question of demographics than churchmanship. Most parishes round here are more or less 'evangelical', but few of them attract many under-30s. Some inner city churches are struggling on with a dozen or so 60+ year olds; some of the more affluent suburban ones attract parents with school-age children (mainly to secure school places). The three churches I know best, with a rather different demographic, include along with the oldies a significant proportion of 20 and 30 year olds. (The three being respectively, low-liberalish, and two 'liberal catholic', one being more 'liberal' and the other being more 'catholic'.)
I would like to be reassured that there are some evangelical churches attracting significant numbers of young people in working class parishes, rather than appealing exclusively, HTB style. to professionals.
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
When considered from the standpoint of growth of a movement, one notices that the Fraternity, in just over 25 years since its founding, grown from a dozen priests and twenty seminarians to a couple hundred of each, with another dozen ordinations next year, and plenty more on the way. Quite significantly, the average age of their priests is only 38. They built the first all-new, full-sized, from-the-ground-up seminary in North America in many decades. Few other orders could boast anything even remotely resembling this, in a comparable time. And the Institute of Christ the King, Sovereign Priest is also doing well--another entity that started from scratch. Both orders have continually increased the number of dioceses in which they have a presence, and the number of apostolates they have. Both orders regularly train diocesan priests to celebrate the Traditional Mass, and the number of locations where the old rite is celebrated has increased every year since the 1990s. Like all but the very largest orders, their numbers are small, relative to the entire Church, but their continual and significant growth is most notable.
Yes but like the Ordinariate this seems very clergy-driven. (The Ordinariate is extremely top-heavy with a tiny proportion of lay people to clergy.) What about the people?
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
It's more a question of demographics than churchmanship.
I would also agree with this. The kids at the youth group I mentioned above were mostly baptized and raised at that church. My present church is closer to what you would consider Anglo-Catholic, and we have the beginnings of a youth program, consisting of kids who have been going to our church since they were really little. We made a commitment to being more welcoming to families by offering Sunday morning nursery and godly play, and inviting the kids to participate in worship, and it eventually lead to a youth program. Speaking as a parent of a toddler, this kind of stuff is hugely important. If the nursery at my church wasn't as good as it is, I might have considered moving on by now, and taken one future youth group member with me.
If you don't make it easy for parents to attend your church, they aren't going to.
[ 29. November 2016, 14:02: Message edited by: Og, King of Bashan ]
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
When considered from the standpoint of growth of a movement, one notices that the Fraternity, in just over 25 years since its founding, grown from a dozen priests and twenty seminarians to a couple hundred of each, with another dozen ordinations next year, and plenty more on the way. Quite significantly, the average age of their priests is only 38. They built the first all-new, full-sized, from-the-ground-up seminary in North America in many decades. Few other orders could boast anything even remotely resembling this, in a comparable time. And the Institute of Christ the King, Sovereign Priest is also doing well--another entity that started from scratch. Both orders have continually increased the number of dioceses in which they have a presence, and the number of apostolates they have. Both orders regularly train diocesan priests to celebrate the Traditional Mass, and the number of locations where the old rite is celebrated has increased every year since the 1990s. Like all but the very largest orders, their numbers are small, relative to the entire Church, but their continual and significant growth is most notable.
Yes but like the Ordinariate this seems very clergy-driven. (The Ordinariate is extremely top-heavy with a tiny proportion of lay people to clergy.) What about the people?
What about them? They are sufficient enough in every apostolate. Weddings and baptisms far outnumber funerals. Newcomers in nearly every apostolate routinely comment about how young the congregation is. Growth is taking place in nearly every parish and community. It is a tiny portion of the whole Church,but the movement's success is certainly admirable.
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TomM
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# 4618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
When considered from the standpoint of growth of a movement, one notices that the Fraternity, in just over 25 years since its founding, grown from a dozen priests and twenty seminarians to a couple hundred of each, with another dozen ordinations next year, and plenty more on the way. Quite significantly, the average age of their priests is only 38. They built the first all-new, full-sized, from-the-ground-up seminary in North America in many decades. Few other orders could boast anything even remotely resembling this, in a comparable time. And the Institute of Christ the King, Sovereign Priest is also doing well--another entity that started from scratch. Both orders have continually increased the number of dioceses in which they have a presence, and the number of apostolates they have. Both orders regularly train diocesan priests to celebrate the Traditional Mass, and the number of locations where the old rite is celebrated has increased every year since the 1990s. Like all but the very largest orders, their numbers are small, relative to the entire Church, but their continual and significant growth is most notable.
Yes but like the Ordinariate this seems very clergy-driven. (The Ordinariate is extremely top-heavy with a tiny proportion of lay people to clergy.) What about the people?
What about them? They are sufficient enough in every apostolate. Weddings and baptisms far outnumber funerals. Newcomers in nearly every apostolate routinely comment about how young the congregation is. Growth is taking place in nearly every parish and community. It is a tiny portion of the whole Church,but the movement's success is certainly admirable.
I refer you back to my original question. Are there any figures?
I have come across many assertions, as you make here, and anecdotes about how such and such a congregation is doing. But what about proper statistics about laity?
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
Are you asking how many attend the Traditional Latin Mass each week? Not sure that I can answer that any more than one can say how many attend Spanish Mass each week, or Mass without any music, or concelebrated Masses. I can assure you that the growth of the movement exists because each year more people begin attending. Here is a listing of the known regularly scheduled TLM: http://www.ecclesiadei.org/masses.cfm
From both a spiritual and an objective perspective, the growth of the movement, both lay and clerical, in such a short time, is quite impressive. I'm not asking to you or anyone here to attend a TLM, or support the movement. I had merely remarked, as one very involved in the movement, that young people abound at nearly every Mass listed in the link above, in contrast to the somewhat outdated perception that young people desire guitar Masses, Lifeteen-style liturgy, and the like. The reason that there are so many young FSSP and ICRSS priests now is precisely because they began attending TLM as laypeople, and then entered the seminary. Most FSSP priests are a product of FSSP parish life and seminary formation. Priests are infrequently admitted from other institutes or dioceses.
Yet, like many, rather than remarking how wonderful it is that an increasing number of people are having their spiritual needs met through traditional liturgy, catechesis and devotional life, some choose to pick at numbers, tacitly suggesting that the movement is, after all, small potatoes, numerically speaking, or is really all about priestly life, and not lay. These are risible responses, especially the latter, because they exhibit a bias toward a movement that has grown much more rapidly than nearly any other such group. No need to join the movement, but please do recognize and give credit where it is due. This will be my last post on this particular matter.
[ 29. November 2016, 20:21: Message edited by: Ceremoniar ]
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Knopwood
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# 11596
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Posted
It is indeed anecdotal, but I can corroborate that most TLM celebrations I have assisted at were well populated with young families, newlyweds, and (ahem) single men.
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TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Are you asking how many attend the Traditional Latin Mass each week? Not sure that I can answer that any more than one can say how many attend Spanish Mass each week, or Mass without any music, or concelebrated Masses. I can assure you that the growth of the movement exists because each year more people begin attending. Here is a listing of the known regularly scheduled TLM: http://www.ecclesiadei.org/masses.cfm
From both a spiritual and an objective perspective, the growth of the movement, both lay and clerical, in such a short time, is quite impressive. I'm not asking to you or anyone here to attend a TLM, or support the movement. I had merely remarked, as one very involved in the movement, that young people abound at nearly every Mass listed in the link above, in contrast to the somewhat outdated perception that young people desire guitar Masses, Lifeteen-style liturgy, and the like. The reason that there are so many young FSSP and ICRSS priests now is precisely because they began attending TLM as laypeople, and then entered the seminary. Most FSSP priests are a product of FSSP parish life and seminary formation. Priests are infrequently admitted from other institutes or dioceses.
Yet, like many, rather than remarking how wonderful it is that an increasing number of people are having their spiritual needs met through traditional liturgy, catechesis and devotional life, some choose to pick at numbers, tacitly suggesting that the movement is, after all, small potatoes, numerically speaking, or is really all about priestly life, and not lay. These are risible responses, especially the latter, because they exhibit a bias toward a movement that has grown much more rapidly than nearly any other such group. No need to join the movement, but please do recognize and give credit where it is due. This will be my last post on this particular matter.
I for one am not intending to criticise at all. I think there is much to be gained from the renewal of the liturgical life of the Church that would either use of or draw from older traditions than have come to dominate in many places.
In a lot of commentary, and some of the initial comments about it in this thread, suggest (either explicitly or implicitly) that the restoration of more traditional liturgy is the way to engage a typically detached cohort with the Church.
To determine how true that is, or whether it is some other aspect that is attracting people some consideration of how effective it is, and in what circumstances is necessary. Whilst correlation does not equal causality, knowing what correlations exist surely helps with formulating some hypotheses. Otherwise, we are left with our own anecdotal experience, which might mean we have a full church, but it has come largely at the expense to the parish up the road, not by winning anyone new to the Kingdom.
[ 30. November 2016, 08:51: Message edited by: TomM ]
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I share many of TomM's concerns. It does seem to me that groups that see their main reason to exist as to represent a better version of the truth as they see it to the rest of the church - or which look like that to others - are much more likely to win their following from dissatisfied existing churchgoers, than to be converting the unchurched. It suspect that's just as likely to be true of Latin Mass Catholics as it is of many independent freelance groups.
It would be encouraging to be persuaded I'm wrong, but it would be nice to see evidence.
Also, incidentally, although I'm not RC and so don't actually know, I get the impression that in the country where I am (England) Latin Mass Catholicism as a movement rather than an occasional event for the nostalgic hasn't got a a great deal of traction.
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Teekeey Misha
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
Well that's great, care to elaborate as per my OP that you selectively quoted, I asked for any examples of[anglo-catholic] churches engaging well with young people or of particular programs or activities that sit well with "youth" and high church sensibilities?
I "selectively quoted" because the quote I selected is the part with which I'm uncomfortable. I was not posting to answer the question you pose, but to observe that I think the idea that "the evangelical church seems better suited or more attractive to teenagers and the under 25s" strikes me as wrong, based as it is on the implication that there is some sort of "standard model" of teenager/U25.
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
Well that's great, care to elaborate as per my OP that you selectively quoted, I asked for any examples of[anglo-catholic] churches engaging well with young people or of particular programs or activities that sit well with "youth" and high church sensibilities?
I "selectively quoted" because the quote I selected is the part with which I'm uncomfortable. I was not posting to answer the question you pose, but to observe that I think the idea that "the evangelical church seems better suited or more attractive to teenagers and the under 25s" strikes me as wrong, based as it is on the implication that there is some sort of "standard model" of teenager/U25.
I don't think it has to be based on that at all. However, there might be some attributes that are more correlated with the younger age group and it's valid to ask what might be more attractive to people displaying those attributes, which are more likely to be found in younger age groups. No-one's saying that every younger person displays those attributes, but that a younger person, on average, is more likely to.
For example, I think it's fairly uncontroversial to suggest that Justin Bieber is more popular amongst under 25s than he is with over 50s. That a given Justin Bieber fan is disproportionately likely to be under 25 than would be predicted from demographics alone, and that a given under 25 is more likely to like Justin Bieber than his popularity in the population as a whole would predict. That does not mean that everyone under 25 likes Justin Bieber (God help us!) nor that all his fans are under 25.
[ 30. November 2016, 14:26: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Also, incidentally, although I'm not RC and so don't actually know, I get the impression that in the country where I am (England) Latin Mass Catholicism as a movement rather than an occasional event for the nostalgic hasn't got a a great deal of traction.
Partly because the RC hierarchy in England has done everything they could to prevent the Extraordinary Form from gaining traction.
And partly because Catholicism in England has a very different character than it does in the US.
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Evangeline
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# 7002
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Posted
Thanks Karl, couldn't have put it better myself.
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