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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Candles at Evensong
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howard_banks
Apprentice
# 12358
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Posted
At my MOTR Canadian parish we do Cathedral-style Choral Evensong twice a month. One member of the parish, who was grew up in a high church in England in the fifties with six tall candlesticks, was a server there who lit all six candles for Prayer Book choral evensong. Another, who leads the servers here, grew up in a church in Canada with no candles on the alter at all. These two appear to agree to disagree - every time! Can shipmates enlighten us: should altar candles be lit for Evensong?
Posts: 2 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Feb 2007
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Perhaps then they can agree to alternate?
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Laud-able
Ship's Ancient
# 9896
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Posted
Our custom at Evensong is to extinguish the altar candles and the standards on the pavement after the third collect.
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'. . . "Non Angli, sed Angeli" "not Angels, but Anglicans"', Sellar, W C, and Yeatman, R J, 1066 and All That, London, 1930, p. 6.
Posts: 279 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Jul 2005
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I think that's pretty common, but why, I have no idea.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Candles should certainly be lit for Evensong. I knew a v high place with the big six, who put an additional small pair on the altar for Evensong and lit them leaving the biggies unlit.
Since it can be argued Evensong ends after the third collect, there is a fussy logic in put out the candles then.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Since it can be argued Evensong ends after the third collect, there is a fussy logic in put out the candles then.
A good friend, now a judge, once said that anything could be argued....
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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howard_banks
Apprentice
# 12358
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Posted
I certainly wouldn't argue that: Evensong goes, according to the Prayer Book, past the third collect, via the anthem and the Prayer of Saint Chrysostom, to The Grace.
Another argument I have heard: candles are lit only if the service includes communion. AFAIK candles are lit "for all offices and sacraments".
At this point, one could mention (but surely not pursue in this thread) the discussion of seven or two sacraments. I will say, though, that in my youth I used to light our big 6 for weddings and funerals - as well as Sung Eucharist and Evensong.
Posts: 2 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Feb 2007
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Inasmuch as there is any consensus on this, two 'Office Lights' should be lit during the Evensong: if you normally have two candles on the altar these can serve, if you normally have the 'big six' then the common practice is indeed to add two smaller ones and light only those. These are usually extinguished at the end of the office as given in the BCP i.e. before the sermon, additional intercessions and blessing if these follow afterwards, as is often the case.
Not that the Baby Jesus will cry if you follow another custom, but this is probably the closest thing to 'common practice'!
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
... if you normally have the 'big six' then the common practice is indeed to add two smaller ones and light only those.
That's what we do, but they remain lit until then end. Of course, extra candles are lit if Evensong is followed by Solemn Benediction
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Ottawa diocesan custom was always 2 candles for the offices, with only S Matthew's and S Barnabas going for the big six. Most parishes seem to have no evensong at all, and I have long urged that bonfires be lit outside to shame them into holding the service-- for some reason, my initiative has found little support.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
We're a v. high place where the Big Six are lighted before Evensong and then two sets of seven (two candelabra) are lighted during the hymn between Evensong and Benediction.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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BulldogSacristan
Shipmate
# 11239
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Inasmuch as there is any consensus on this, two 'Office Lights' should be lit during the Evensong: if you normally have two candles on the altar these can serve, if you normally have the 'big six' then the common practice is indeed to add two smaller ones and light only those. These are usually extinguished at the end of the office as given in the BCP i.e. before the sermon, additional intercessions and blessing if these follow afterwards, as is often the case.
Not that the Baby Jesus will cry if you follow another custom, but this is probably the closest thing to 'common practice'!
This is actually precisely the wrong way around. The "big six" are the office lights. And these should be lit for any solemn service, including evensong. Usually a church which has "the big six" will also have two larger pavement lights or altar lights which would only be lit for mass or benediction. If you are having solemn/choral evensong without following benediction, it's these two candles that remain unlit, not the "big six."
If you only have two candles on your altar (what a Dearmerite you are!) then the whole distinction of what's an office light and what's not isn't there. In this case, I'd most certainly light these two lights for a solemn/choral evensong.
Posts: 197 | From: Boston, Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2006
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
The rector needs to make a decision and tell them to shut up and sit down.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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BulldogSacristan
Shipmate
# 11239
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
The rector needs to make a decision and tell them to shut up and sit down.
This is the correct answer.
Posts: 197 | From: Boston, Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2006
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
We're a v. high place where the Big Six are lighted before Evensong and then two sets of seven (two candelabra) are lighted during the hymn between Evensong and Benediction.
Scott, I refer you to m'learned friend, the aforementioned Blessed Percy:
"The ancient use of two candles survived even in the Roman Church, in many places, well into the middle of the eighteenth century, only gradually succumbing to the debased taste of that period."!
Posts: 654 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Mar 2005
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
"The ancient use of two candles survived even in the Roman Church, in many places, well into the middle of the eighteenth century, only gradually succumbing to the debased taste of that period."!
Acknowledged. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) But we've got a history to live up to, and photos of our humble chapel from a century ago (only one century, I realize!) show a conflagration of candelabra, burning bushes, and I think a bonfire or two for Evensong and Benediction. What we do now is a Quaker meeting in comparison!
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
Sounds like a step in the right direction. Less is more!
Posts: 654 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Mar 2005
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
If Anglicans are really nose bleed high and do what the Pope does, they will have a central altar with two candles or less.
PS. Evensong ended after the third collect in 1549. If you will adopt all these trendy innovations....
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
We use the nave altar* for Benediction. Evensong (with 2 candles) precedes it, and ends with the Third Collect as per 1549. The extra candles, already on the altar but unlit, are then kindled during a suitably long hymn (!), before the MBS is brought out to the strains of O salutaris hostia.
*It's not really in the nave, more on the chancel step, but closer to the peeps than the old High Altar (which retains the Big Six). Our chancel is quite short, so we could in theory use the High Altar for Benners, but the nave altar would be in the way, and is a pig to move....
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
The custom of extinguishing candles after the third collect at Evensong, seems to have disappeared now, but was common-place in my youth.
Again, in my youth (1950s), I used to experience churches that had their candles lit for Evensong, but extinguished for Matins. I can only speculate that the unlit candles for Matins procedure, was for the benefit of worshippers whose churchmanship was lower down the candle.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
No, no - Matins was said in the morning , so no need for artificial light...by the time Evensong was due, it would be getting dark, so Parson and Clerk would need help to be able to read their books.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
No, no - Matins was said in the morning , so no need for artificial light...by the time Evensong was due, it would be getting dark, so Parson and Clerk would need help to be able to read their books.
IJ
If you are saying that, then how do you account for candles at morning Eucharist?
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
What is this 'morning Eucharist' of which you speak? 'Sacrament Sunday' occurs four times a year, with the Lord's Supper following on after Matins and Litany, so at around 1 o'clock if the Curate has been preaching...or half-past twelve if it's the Vicar's turn.
Oh, you mean that new-fangled Puseyite practice? Well, at 8 o'clock in the morning, especially in winter, some light will be needed at the Holy Table, especially on the north side thereof.
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
What is this 'morning Eucharist' of which you speak? 'Sacrament Sunday' occurs four times a year, with the Lord's Supper following on after Matins and Litany, so at around 1 o'clock if the Curate has been preaching...or half-past twelve if it's the Vicar's turn.
Oh, you mean that new-fangled Puseyite practice? Well, at 8 o'clock in the morning, especially in winter, some light will be needed at the Holy Table, especially on the north side thereof.
IJ
You are describing the practices at and since the 17th century, but I am describing the practices in the 20th century. I ought to make clear that the Matins services to which I refer, were sung and not said.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Oh dear. I was merely trying to lighten the darkness of this gloomy world with a little irony.
I have no idea why your church did not light the candles for Matins.
I will now get my coat.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
No, no - Matins was said in the morning , so no need for artificial light...by the time Evensong was due, it would be getting dark, so Parson and Clerk would need help to be able to read their books.
IJ
If you are saying that, then how do you account for candles at morning Eucharist?
In the Diocese of Sydney, the One True Anglican Church™, it is quite clear in the canons that there shall be no such accoutrements on the Lord's Table, unless necesary for the purpose of (non-metaphorical) illumination.
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Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Does not stop quite a few of us using them - including some places you'd think of as very stern Moore College trained.
The tradition of extinguishing candles seems to rest on Dearmer and is therefore suspect.
[ 29. January 2017, 19:48: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Laud-able
Ship's Ancient
# 9896
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Posted
Dearmer on Solemn Evensong (footnote 20): "There seems to be no reason why the candles should be put out till the conclusion of the service."
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'. . . "Non Angli, sed Angeli" "not Angels, but Anglicans"', Sellar, W C, and Yeatman, R J, 1066 and All That, London, 1930, p. 6.
Posts: 279 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Jul 2005
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Just so. It always seemed silly and unnecessary to me, at The Tin Tabernacle Of My Yoof, to have to go and solemnly extinguish the candles after 'Lighten our darkness, we beseech Thee, O Lord'!
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
That's because you have too many candles on the altar. As St Percy would no doubt say 'two only,as generally necessary to salvation'........ ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Oh dear. I was merely trying to lighten the darkness of this gloomy world with a little irony.
I have no idea why your church did not light the candles for Matins.
I will now get my coat.
IJ
I appreciate your sense of humour and your understanding of those far-off days in the 17th century. As I have never met you in person, I was not entirely sure how to take you.
If my memory serves, it was while a certain priest was in place for a few years, that the candles were unlit for Matins, but lit for Evensong. Otherwise, they were lit for both services. A church I used to go to on holiday at that time, used to use this inconsistency of lit and unlit.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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