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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Pectoral crosses
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Noel Fryer
Apprentice
# 18658
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Posted
I am not a bishop - if I were I wouldn't belong here! - but when I am conducting services I always wear a pectoral cross; very simple, Holy Land wood on a chain. Because I do other things in the church, I do so so to remind me - and them - that at that time I am being a minister. Any ideas, or am I being a poseur?
Posts: 1 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2016
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BabyWombat
Shipmate
# 18552
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Posted
Hmmm…. I have a good priest friend who regularly does so, wearing a multicolored stone cross he picked up while on mission somewhere or other. It annoys me, but it is also harmless. What do your colleagues think?
However, I always taught that we vest in part to cover up our individual selves and step into the role assigned by our orders, and therefore putting on individual items was to be avoided. The bishop’s cross is part of his vesture as bishop, and therefore not “individual.” (Had quite a to-do with a Lay Reader who was chilly and insisted that various brightly colored shawls, Tibetan hats and fingerless gloves were just the ticket while assisting -- but that’s a story for another day.)
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Let us, with a gladsome mind…..
Posts: 102 | From: US | Registered: Feb 2016
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BabyWombat:
(Had quite a to-do with a Lay Reader who was chilly and insisted that various brightly colored shawls, Tibetan hats and fingerless gloves were just the ticket while assisting -- but that’s a story for another day.)
I do hope you'll share it!
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
It depends on the custom of your church.
In some churches, certain priests with particular roles are permitted to wear "pontificals"; in others, the pectoral cross isn't considered part of the pontifical insignia at all and is customarily worn by priests; in yet others, there are no fixed rules about these things.
What are the people in your ecclesiastical home accustomed to?
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by BabyWombat:
(Had quite a to-do with a Lay Reader who was chilly and insisted that various brightly colored shawls, Tibetan hats and fingerless gloves were just the ticket while assisting -- but that’s a story for another day.)
I do hope you'll share it!
Yes, for a start, is this Reader male or female? Female would be fair enough, though not going well with cassock, surplice and blue scarf. But a male one who goes in for brightly colored shawls, Tibetan hats and fingerless gloves, that's more unusual.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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BabyWombat
Shipmate
# 18552
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Posted
Oh…. OK…. The Tale of the Lay Reader of Seven Veils…… somewhat disguised to protect all involved.
The Setting: A TEC New England fairly Anglo-Cath parish in winter. Mid-size French Gothic building with high vaulted ceilings. Furnace somewhat unreliable, morning service could be chilly.
The Individual: A woman in her mid thirties, Lay Reader in training and having a go at trying out the liturgical bits. Vesture is cassock, alb and rope girdle. Will be serving as sub=deacon.
The Scenario: Procession forming in the back of the church during organ prelude: Crucifer, choir, altar party. Lay Reader in Training excuses self briefly; returns with various shawls in unsubtle colors draped about shoulders, purple Tibetan hat, green fingerless gloves. As presiding priest I draw her aside and suggest some serious modification. I am rebuffed by the “I am cold” response. I suggest a sweater under the vesture -- am told cassock is already too tight and a sweater would not work. Hymn starts, we process, I seethe.
Afterwards we have a chat. I reiterate the “ we vest to cover up our individuality and to enter into the role on behalf of the community” speech. Acknowledge it is chill, and that sweaters under cassock do the trick, noting we have cassocks available in many sizes. I am told that the ability to wrap up, and ability to drop the wrapping if too warm, is essential. I suggest trying the sweater.
Complaint is made to the Vestry that I am being unreasonable, doctrinaire, and a total sod. Vestry reprimands me for unreasonableness. Individual not scheduled, continues as choir member but insists on doing Tai Chi in the aisle behind the organ bench to stay warm, thereby casting moving shadows on the open score on the music rack. Organist’s spouse offers to break Lay Reader in Training’s arms free of charge.
Complaint is made to Bishop’s office that I am, in essence, a male chauvinist and insulting to women. Ultimate agreement negotiated that Lay Reader in Training will worship elsewhere, and I have letter of censure placed in my diocesan file.
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Let us, with a gladsome mind…..
Posts: 102 | From: US | Registered: Feb 2016
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
But a male one who goes in for brightly colored shawls, Tibetan hats and fingerless gloves, that's more unusual.
Except in parts of the Diocese of London
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
As posted on another thread: I knew he late Archimandrite Ephrem Lash; he had a certain "presence" about him and a keen mind. He was once wearing a rather nice pectoral cross which had got a bit bent (like the one on the Hungarian crown).
I asked him if there was any theological or historical significance in this. "Oh", he said, "It must have got a bit biffed".
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Morgan
Shipmate
# 15372
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Posted
I wear a pectoral cross when conducting services. This is not to make me more individual but less. Like the vestments that are worn, the cross reminds me and others that it is definitely and absolutely not about me.
Posts: 111 | From: Canberra | Registered: Dec 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Although I don't wear one, I suspect that the style of cross chosen is always going to say something about the wearer, whether it's an elaborate gold and bejewelled affair or a very simple wooden one.
It's the same with church buildings: the simple austere decoration of some Nonconformist chapels speaks of its values just as loudly as a highly decorated Catholic place.
These things can never be value-neutral.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
These things can never be value-neutral.
Unless, of course, there's a standard style.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
As posted on another thread: I knew he late Archimandrite Ephrem Lash; he had a certain "presence" about him and a keen mind. He was once wearing a rather nice pectoral cross which had got a bit bent (like the one on the Hungarian crown).
I asked him if there was any theological or historical significance in this. "Oh", he said, "It must have got a bit biffed".
Ephrem was an Archimandrite of the Ecumenical Throne, and the nicest one I ever knew.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
These things can never be value-neutral.
Unless, of course, there's a standard style.
True - although even adopting that could perhaps be construed as "I am a conformist who doesn't like to rebel".
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
BabyWombat, I wish you had taken pictures! (And I can't believe you were the one censured.)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
These things can never be value-neutral.
Unless, of course, there's a standard style.
True - although even adopting that could perhaps be construed as "I am a conformist who doesn't like to rebel".
I suppose that depends on context. In the Russian Orthodox Church, (in the Byzantine Rite at least), there's a prescribed form of Cross depnding on the rank of priest, even down to the style of chain. Priests of the same rank wear the same style of Cross on the same style of chain, not because they choose to be conformists but because it isn't their decision to make. They get the Cross that their bishop gives them and that's the end of the matter. I know of an archimandrite (a certain type of priestmonk) who got into trouble with his bishop because he wouldn't wear his mitre.
The priest really has no choice in the matter.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Fair enough - in a sense, it's a "badge of office".
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
That's right.
In Russian president, the story is that it originated specifically for the that purpose, as some Tsarina or other was embarrassed by approaching a deacon in public and, thinking he was a priest, sought a bleeding in the customary way, only to have her request publicly declined.
Thereafter it was decreed that all priests would wear a pectoral Cross. How true the anecdote is I don't know, but the Cross is the norm for Russian Orthodox priests in a way that it isn't for, say, Greek or Romanian Orthodox priests.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
Er. In Russian practice.
Damned autocorrect.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
'Sought a bleeding..... '?
![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
Blessing , presumably.
As you say, damned autocorrect.
Is Outrage!
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
'Sought a bleeding..... '?
Blessing , presumably.
As you say, damned autocorrect.
Is Outrage!
IJ
Well, quite.
Was it bleeding in 19th-century Russia?
Oh, hang on...
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Noel Fryer:
I am not a bishop - if I were I wouldn't belong here! - but when I am conducting services I always wear a pectoral cross; very simple, Holy Land wood on a chain. Because I do other things in the church, I do so so to remind me - and them - that at that time I am being a minister. Any ideas, or am I being a poseur?
Can't you wear it UNDER the cassock.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Very sorry about all that, Baby Wombat. What worries me is not the lay reader’s naff dress sense or liturgical insensitivity, but the support she got from the congregation. Profoundly sentimental. After all, you did allow her to dress up on that occasion.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
In Russian president, the story is that it originated specifically for the that purpose, as some Tsarina or other was embarrassed by approaching a deacon in public and, thinking he was a priest, sought a bleeding in the customary way, only to have her request publicly declined.
Sounds a bit like the Father Brown story which hinges on the fact that the members of an exclusive dining club and the waiters both wore evening dress, thus enabling the thief to pose as each as appropriate.
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