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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Historical hymnal Q
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Not sure if this belong here or in Eccles.
A friend claims before the 1900s all denominations used the same hymnal. I say no, they not only had different hymnals, they had almost wholly different hymns. The Lutherans sang Lutheran hymns, the Episcopalians sang Episcopal hymns, the Catholics sang Catholic hymns, the Baptists had their own songs, and only at Christmas were there any songs in common.
She insists that was the 1950s but before that all churches use the same hymnal.
So 2 questions, one factual one not.
Did everyone sing the same hymns back 100 years ago?
And-- my memory of the 50s is the different mainline churches had almost no hymns in common, today they all seem to sing hymns from each other's history, why the change? (I like the change but I don't know what led to or caused it).
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Not sure if this belong here or in Eccles.
A friend claims before the 1900s all denominations used the same hymnal. I say no, they not only had different hymnals, they had almost wholly different hymns. The Lutherans sang Lutheran hymns, the Episcopalians sang Episcopal hymns, the Catholics sang Catholic hymns, the Baptists had their own songs, and only at Christmas were there any songs in common.
She insists that was the 1950s but before that all churches use the same hymnal.
So 2 questions, one factual one not.
Did everyone sing the same hymns back 100 years ago?
And-- my memory of the 50s is the different mainline churches had almost no hymns in common, today they all seem to sing hymns from each other's history, why the change? (I like the change but I don't know what led to or caused it).
Your impression is more correct. There was a time when hymns were more closely identified with particular denominations or traditions; with hymnals like the PECUSA 1940 you start to see borrowing from Lutheran, evangelical, Methodist, Reformed, and Catholic sources. The change, I think, can be attributed to the mid-20th century move toward ecumenism.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
This will no doubt be kicked over to Eccl, but I can tell you there was a time when hymnals were very different. To this day many of my Methodist cousins could not identify the hymns I learned in the Missouri Synod. Missouri Synod hymns were very much like Germanic dirges now that I look back at them.
I am ELCA now and I can say our new hymnal has a wide diversity of hymns coming from around the world; but, to tell the truth, why should one limit oneself to just one hymnal that may have 700 hymns? Our congregation has purchased a licensing agreement with GIA that gives us access to a library of over 5,000 hymns--a library that continues to grow.
Now, I would say it is not the hymns that have a commonality as much as the liturgy. Our common liturgy goes way back into Biblical times. For some denominations there is some restriction as to the liturgy that is permissible; but for Lutherans it is neither commanded nor prohibited. For the most part, we still follow the outlines of the common liturgy; but we are not adverse to using different musical renditions.
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
To Eccles you go...
(and, Belle, your friend is as wrong as a wrong thing that is wrong).
John Holding
Purgatory Host
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
For Pete's sake, in the Church of England throughout the mid C20 you always knew what sort of a church you got by the colour of the hymn book: green (Catholic to some extent) or purple (Hymns Ancient and Modern) "Extreme" catholics or evangelicals would have different supplements (Sacred Songs and Solos for some evangelicals.) (Ken probably knows what evangelicals had regularly if not A&M. I bet many did.)
The Methodists had Methodist Hymn Book, the Salvation Army had the Salvation Army Song Book: the books were named after the denominations.
And the Orthodox never had hymns books. One of the reasons I could consider becoming Orthodox.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
In the US the Episcopal church certainly issued its own hymnals which were quite different from those of some other denominations.
This was actually a problem for the mission churches in remote areas. People who were accustomed to such hymns as "The Old Rugged Cross" were not happy with the traditional Episcopal offerings. The church responded by issuing a mission hymnal that did have these old favorites.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
I am the proud owner of an hymnal from 1872. It was published by the Methodist Episcopal Church. It is pocket sized, about 3" by 6" by 1.5". It contains well over 1,000 hymns (no music, as was usual in those days). Of that number I believe the majority are by Charles Wesley. The others may or may not be in common with some other denomination's hymnals, but for the most part I doubt it.
What your friend may be thinking of is the fact that, out here in the frontier, ministers/pastors were hard to get. In those days, you might have the Methodist preacher on the second Sunday, the Baptist preacher on the first Sunday, and so on. Everyone went to all the services, since it was an opportunity to go to church, even if it wasn't one's own denomination that was being represented that day. In those sorts of cases, one would expect a hymnal held in common, but that would be a local church phenomenon, not a denominational thing. And even then, this would have only occurred on the frontier, in areas that had too small a population to support full time pastors from each denomination -- or even one denomination.
What I gather is that, in the past, we had very few hymns in common, apart from Christmas. Since the, oh, 1950s? we've had more and more in common. As noted above, I think it has to do with ecumenism.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
Before the mid-19th century, good Anglicans didn't even sing hymns. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Padre Joshua:
I am the proud owner of an hymnal from 1872. It was published by the Methodist Episcopal Church...It contains well over 1,000 hymns (no music, as was usual in those days). Of that number I believe the majority are by Charles Wesley.
Ah ha! I can use that factual info. My friend knows a whole lot more about music than I do, so I hesitate to challenge her on my limited knowledge alone, she bought a book of hymns dated in the 1880s and insists it is the hymnal all churches used, that later they formed separate hymnals so my memories of the 1950s when an episcopalian walking into a Methodist or Lutheran or Catholic church would not know any of the hymns, was recent years not 1880s.
Didn't make sense to me because Luther wrote a lot of hymns, Wesley wrote a lot, Watts and other Anglicans, the style is different, and communications would be worse than today, inhibiting hearing and borrowing each other's hymns. But all I've had is "logic," she has "the book all the churches used."
On another aspect of church music history, puttering on the web I ran into a long article insisting instrumental music is "recent" in the church. He quotes Thomas Aquinas as saying 'Our church does not use musical instruments, as harps and psalteries, to praise God withal, that she may seem not to Judaize,' says Clement of Alexandria severely condemned the use of instruments even at Christian banquets, Martin Luther said "The organ in the worship is an insignia of Baal," John Wesley said "I have no objection to the organs in our chapels, as long as they are neither seen nor heard," and others.
Is the article basically correct? All these years I've thought Church of Christ had a peculiar attitude towards instrumental music, no idea they might be solidly in historical church tradition!
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Sometimes hymn books can be specific to certain places. I'm the proud owner of an Olney Hymn Book - although I had to buy it, rather than win it in the pancake race.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
The Protestant Episcopal Church produced its own hymnal in about 1811, which fits in with the pattern of denominational hymnals that was beginning to develop. However, in those far off days, private enterprise was the norm with pastors and printers producing their own selections usually embodying their own personal heresies, which is why denominational hymnals became the rule.
The Church of England has never produced an official hymnal. In my youth English Hymnal meant Anglo-Catholic of some description; HA&M was Central or High Church, and there were still some copies of the Hymnal Companion licking about in Evangelical parishes. The maroon Hymns Ancient and Modern Revised was the rule around our way. In my home parish we used HA&MR most of the time, but some tunes came from the English Hymnal, which had been the favoured bok in our shack before about 1960.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
Looking on the web for old hymnals, I bumped into this and wonder if it's the book my friend found.
"The Best Church Hymns, published by the Rev. Louis F. Benson in 1898. Benson's collection of 32 frequently-published hymns from various churches was based upon a survey of 107 Protestant hymnals."
I also bumped into a reminder that (in much of USA anyway) until World War 1 Lutheran hymnals were in German german hymnal in USA, and I found on line a 1875 USA Episcopal hymnal (downloadable as pdf from Google here) and Episcopal Hymnal 1916 on line in midi format here.
While I'm at it, the Baptist 1975 hymnal midis are downloadable in 8 zip files (400 tunes) here
Yes I spend too much time on line!
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
For Pete's sake, in the Church of England throughout the mid C20 you always knew what sort of a church you got by the colour of the hymn book: green (Catholic to some extent) or purple (Hymns Ancient and Modern) "Extreme" catholics or evangelicals would have different supplements (Sacred Songs and Solos for some evangelicals.)
(Ken probably knows what evangelicals had regularly if not A&M. I bet many did.)
The first Anglican church I went to regularly, back in the early 1970s was A&M with occasional apprearances of "Youth Praise" and "100 hymns for today", and even more occasional ones of various dusty pre-war missionary-type books, indeed including "Sacred Songs and Solos".
Since then its been "Sounds of Living Waters", "Mission Praise", and "Songs of Fluffiness", for those that haven't relied on the projection screen.
quote:
The Methodists had Methodist Hymn Book, the Salvation Army had the Salvation Army Song Book: the books were named after the denominations.
But in practice the different Protestant denominations sang the same songs, including at least the MOTR and Evangelical Anglicans, even if we got them from different books. Maybe the nosebleedingestly high of the high-church CofE had their own special songs, but the rest of us sang, well, to be honest we sang the same sort of songs they sang on Songs of Praise on the telly. Which in turn weren't very different from the ones we sang in school assemblies.
And everybody sang Wesley songs. Even the Catholics.
I'd reckon there was a common core of perhaps twenty or thirty hymns - maybe up to fifty or sixty if you include ones that only get brought out at Christmas and Easter - that would have been familiar to pretty much all the mainstream Protestant denominations, and probably to many Catholics as well. They wouldn't have been the whole musical diet of any congregation but I bet they would have been maybe a third or a half of it.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
Roman Catholics even sing Luther's hymns.
[ 25. April 2012, 15:49: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Looking on the web for old hymnals, I bumped into this and wonder if it's the book my friend found.
"The Best Church Hymns, published by the Rev. Louis F. Benson in 1898. Benson's collection of 32 frequently-published hymns from various churches was based upon a survey of 107 Protestant hymnals."
There is an online copy here. Or at least the contents page. Anf a rather crude scan of the full text here
I think those songs might make up a good part of that "common core". Just looking through them:
Songs we often sing:
Jesus, Lover of my soul
How sweet the Name of Jesus sounds
Our God, our Help in ages past
Jesus shall reign where'er the sun
Glorious things of thee are spoken
Hark, the glad sound! the Saviour comes
All hail the power of Jesus' Name
O worship the King all glorious above
Guide me, O Thou Great Jehovah
Just as I am, without one plea
Seasonal songs we sing every year:
When I survey the wondrous cross
Hark I the herald angels sing
Lo I He comes, with clouds descending
Hail to the Lord's Anointed
Christ the Lord is risen to-day
Songs I have occasionally sung in CofE churches:
Rock of Ages, cleft for me
All praise to Thee, my God, this night
Awake, my soul, and with the sun
Jerusalem, my happy home
Abide with me: fast falls the eventide
God moves in a mysterious way
Jesus, the very thought of Thee
Nearer, my God, to Thee
From Greenland's icy mountains
Jerusalem the golden
Thou, whose almighty word
Songs I can't remember singing:
Jesus, I my cross have taken
Sun of my soul, Thou Saviour dear
Come, let us join our cheerful songs
Children of the heavenly King
There is a land of pure delight
Brief life is here our portion
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I do wish people wouldn't use the phrase "nose bleed high".
For the record, that sort of church (which I only came to late) would sing the Songs of Praise sort and supplement them as appropriate.
Father Twisaday of All Saints Notting Hill always had Watts' "There is a land of pure delight" at every funeral.
There was far more chance of a Moody and Sankey fav in an incense bound shrine than a safe establishment MOTR place. After all, the horse must not be frightened.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Basically irrelevant question: are Episcopalians the only ones that sing "O Little Town of Bethlehem" to the tune Forest Green?
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Whatever else is it sung to? (Serious question. I've no wish to boast of my ignorance.)
Choice of tunes is probably a denominational thing. How I wish MOTR Anglicans sang All Hail the Power of Jesu's Name to that nice hand-me-down Handel one Methodists use with a drawn out chorus "And crown him, crown him, crown him, crown him, cro-how-own him Lord of All").
The last time I sang it was during the procession of the Blessed Sacrament at Walsingham.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
It's usually sung to the twee tune St. Louis round these parts.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
A tune which begs for muted trumpets and quavering saxophones in close harmony...
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
A tune which begs for muted trumpets and quavering saxophones in close harmony...
More like 27 first year violin students at the school winter recital.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
Or the Portsmouth Sinfonia .
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
The oldest hymnal in my personal collection* is 'A Collection of Hymns for Public, Social and Domestic Worship,' published by the Southern Methodist Publishing House, Nashville, Tennessee, dated 1860.
It is a words only edition, typical of the time, containing 1063 texts.
This was published after the Methodist Episcopal Church divided (primarily over the slavery issue). There was, however, an earlier hymnal, noted in this book's preface as 'The Hymn-Book of the Methodist Episcopal Church, being in many respects defective though otherwise highly prized …'
* It belonged to my great-grandmother
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You can't retire from a calling.
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I remember the Methodists used to have 'Moody and Sankey' evenings, when they'd get together to sing all their old hymns. Has this died out now?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Lutherans certainly had their own hymnals long before the 1950s. Many of the Lutheran denoms had hymnals in their own language (meaning other than English). When English started being adopted, Episcopal resources proved invaluable. If I listen to a podcast from S. Clement's and hear a hymn that piques my interest, I refer to my 1st-Generation-English Lutheran hymnal. It usually contains the hymn.
Lutheran hymnals, at the very least back into the 1800s, tended to include liturgical materials in them, too. I have a couple Norwegian-American hymnals in Norwegian that included text only for the hymns, but had musical notation for the liturgical materials (for instance the Gloria, Gospel Acclamation, Sursum Corda, Sanctus, Agnus Dei).
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Whatever else is it sung to? (Serious question. I've no wish to boast of my ignorance.)
Choice of tunes is probably a denominational thing. How I wish MOTR Anglicans sang All Hail the Power of Jesu's Name to that nice hand-me-down Handel one Methodists use with a drawn out chorus "And crown him, crown him, crown him, crown him, cro-how-own him Lord of All").
The last time I sang it was during the procession of the Blessed Sacrament at Walsingham.
We have a habit of using 'Miles Lane' by William Shrubsole dating from 1779 for that one. The '40 Hymnal gives 'Coronation' as an alternative, but I am not so keen on that one.
We have certain warhorses in this parish which include:
'Holy God, we praise thy Name'
'Faith of our Fathers'
'The God of Abraham praise'
'A mighty stronghold our God is still'
'Praise, my soul, the king of heaven'
'O worship the king, all glorious above'
'Alleluia sing to Jesus'
'Deck my soul thyself with gladness'
'Now my tongue, the mystery telling'
And there are some seasonal hymns that are compulsory.
All the usual suspects at Christmas
At Easter
"Hail thee, festival day" (also at Pentecost)
"The strife is o'er"
"Allelia, allelia, hearts and voices heav'nward raise"
"Jesus Christ is ris'n today"
Trinity Sunday always sees
"Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty"
"St Patrick's Breastplate"
There are a few others, but those seem to be the main ones.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
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WearyPilgrim
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# 14593
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Posted
I have denominational hymnals from the Methodists and the Free Will Baptists that date back to the 1820s, and I have several others from the Universalists, Unitarians, and Episcopalians that were published during the last two decades of the 19th Century.
Hymnals containing then-contemporary Gospel songs, intertwined with some traditional hymnody, were first introduced in the U.S. in the 1880s or thereabouts. Publishers such as Hope have been putting them out ever since. Hope Publishing in particular has become considerably ecumenical in scope during the past three decades; the company has produced some first-rate hymnals that are used in churches of many denominations.
The first nondenominational "mainline" hymnals that I have seen were introduced during the post-World War I years, most of them arranged and edited by a gentleman named H. Augustine Smith who, if memory serves, was a music professor at Boston University (Methodist). I have copies of a couple of them. They contain a wide breadth of hymnody, as well as some very good liturgical materials culled from various denominational traditions. They were published by the Century Company, now defunct, and by Fleming H. Revell, which was founded by the evangelist Dwight L. Moody and remains very much active as part of the Baker Books conglomerate.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
She insists that was the 1950s but before that all churches use the same hymnal.
From the context what is meant is not "all churches" but "all protestant churches" and probably "all white American churches".
That is not the same thing at all. Someone may think Roman Catholics, Pentecostals and Orthodox are not proper Christians, but as far as this board is concerned, they are.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I do wish people wouldn't use the phrase "nose bleed high".
For the record, that sort of church (which I only came to late) would sing the Songs of Praise sort and supplement them as appropriate.
Songs of Praise Ven? Surely not Uncle Percy's (i.e. Dearmer, after his brain went soft) Blue Book of Heretical Horrors?
English Hymnal was the standard Anglo Catholic book, supplemented by the Mirfield Mission Hymnbook, or for the celestially high, the fabulously exotic English Catholic Hymnbook.
For the most baroque, the only hymnbook worthy of use alongside the English Missal could only be the Westminster Hymnal. I did encounter this (RC) book in a few Anglican places in my youth, and it did indicate a Certain Point of View.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Since then it's been "Sounds of Living Waters" ...
Now that does take me back! The good old days, eh?
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oferyas:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I do wish people wouldn't use the phrase "nose bleed high".
For the record, that sort of church (which I only came to late) would sing the Songs of Praise sort and supplement them as appropriate.
Songs of Praise Ven? Surely not Uncle Percy's (i.e. Dearmer, after his brain went soft) Blue Book of Heretical Horrors?
No, no, no. Songs of Praise here refers to the early Sunday evening programme on BBC 1 associated for ever with the adorable late Dame Thora Hird (whose eulogy by Alan Bennett is a wonderful piece).
Not that I ever watched it in her glory days.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by Oferyas:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I do wish people wouldn't use the phrase "nose bleed high".
For the record, that sort of church (which I only came to late) would sing the Songs of Praise sort and supplement them as appropriate.
Songs of Praise Ven? Surely not Uncle Percy's (i.e. Dearmer, after his brain went soft) Blue Book of Heretical Horrors?
No, no, no. Songs of Praise here refers to the early Sunday evening programme on BBC 1 associated for ever with the adorable late Dame Thora Hird (whose eulogy by Alan Bennett is a wonderful piece).
Not that I ever watched it in her glory days.
Thank you for that clarification - you had me quite worried for a moment. Incidentally I never realised until recently that SoP is not the oldest such programme still being broadcast. The older programme is apparently the (also BBC produced) Caniadaeth y Cysegr, then on BBC Wales, now on S4C.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I know all the hymns on Ken's list except
Jesus, I my cross have taken
Children of the heavenly King
Brief life is here our portion
I haven't sung 'Sun of my soul' for years. I'd regard it as a bit old fashioned.
I assume "All praise to Thee, my God, this night" is the same as 'Glory to Thee, my God, this night". That was the standard 'Evening Hymn' at one time, just as 'Awake my soul' was the morning one.
PD's list is culturally a bit more remote. I don't know,
Holy God, we praise thy Name
Now my tongue, the mystery telling'
Allelia, allelia, hearts and voices heav'nward raise.
Faith of our Fathers, I have always regarded as RC.
I haven't hear 'Hail thee festival day' since I left school over 45 years ago.
I really miss "St Patrick's Breastplate". It used to be the 'Confirmation Hymn' over here but seems to have been widely dropped as too difficult.
I think I've commented before that one denominational marker is what tune you think belongs to Rock of Ages. If you're CofE, the proper tune is Redhead's Petra. Anything else is an abomination, but especially the horrible jingly one (Hasting's 'Toplady').
Forest Green is not the only tune for 'O Little Town of Bethleham'. There's also one by Walford Davies which I think has the imaginative name of 'Christmas Carol'.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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WearyPilgrim
Shipmate
# 14593
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Posted
The tune used by most American churches to accompany "O Little Town of Bethlehem" is ST. LOUIS, by Lewis H. Radner. It was written in 1868, the same year that Phillips Brooks penned the hymn --- so I'm guessing it's the original tune.
I'm quite sure that I have heard the choir of King's College, Cambridge use both tunes for the Service of Lessons and Carols.
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Morlader
Shipmate
# 16040
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Posted
Presumably not at once. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Walford Davies's tune is culled from an anthem setting of the hymn preceded by a short recitative. Well worth learning complete if you can get away with the congo singing only the last verse.
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.. to utmost west.
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
In the 'good ole days' of The Hymnal 1940, the two tunes for 'O Little Town …' were on facing pages and in the same key(!), and thus it was easy to jump back and forth between the tunes, or at least to start out singing St Louis and wind up in Forest Green. We usually did this during the time of communion, when the congo was less likely to be singing. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
The same trick also worked with 'Come ye Faithful, Raise the Strain,' which had Gaudeamus Pariter and St Kevin as paired tunes.
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You can't retire from a calling.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
PD's list is culturally a bit more remote.
So the singing of 21st century English Anglicans has more in common with that of 19th century US Baptists than it does with 21st century US Anglicans!
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oferyas:
For the most baroque, the only hymnbook worthy of use alongside the English Missal could only be the Westminster Hymnal. I did encounter this (RC) book in a few Anglican places in my youth, and it did indicate a Certain Point of View.
Ah! Th Westminster Hymnal! Friends of mine like to joke that it was the only Catholic hymnal worth using, I can't say I disagree too much. I've only ever come across one place in the U.S. that used to use it.
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http://sacristyxrat.tumblr.com/
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oferyas:
English Hymnal was the standard Anglo Catholic book, supplemented by the Mirfield Mission Hymnbook, or for the celestially high, the fabulously exotic English Catholic Hymnbook.
Before the English Hymnal, Hymns Ancient and Modern was the standard Anglo-Catholic book. This may come as a surprise to those accustomed to finding it in low churches, but I guess this history indicates how much higher Anglicanism became over a century.
What's in the Mirfield Mission Hymnbook? In many missionary-minded Anglo-Catholic parishes in the past, Gregorian chant would be found cheek-by-jowl with the most over-ripe Victorian fruits of Moody & Sankey. Is this book a source of the latter type of material?
I'm not familiar with the Westminster Hymnal, either. Sounds interesting.
What about Songs of Syon? This book, although eclectic in its choice of material, is altogether even higher and more antiquarian-nostalgic than the English Hymnal, even in the appearance of the printed page. Did parishes actually use it, or was it primarily produced as an idealistic musicological and liturgical exercise?
[ 26. April 2012, 20:07: Message edited by: Alogon ]
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
What is or was the Yattendon Hymnal? Referred to by Betjeman in one of his poems. From the context I imagine it is even more arts-and-crafty rushes-on-the-floor Dearmer-and Noelish than the EH.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
Ah! Th Westminster Hymnal! Friends of mine like to joke that it was the only Catholic hymnal worth using, I can't say I disagree too much. I've only ever come across one place in the U.S. that used to use it.
Where was that? Anyone still use it?
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Perhaps this will be of some interest: The good folks at the Oremus.org hymnal page have indexes for several of historical Anglican hymnals from the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. Click on the dropdown menu for "Numerical Index to Hymnals," select the title of the hymnal, and it will give you that hymnal's table of contents. Also links to electronic files for most of the hymns.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
What about Songs of Syon? This book, although eclectic in its choice of material, is altogether even higher and more antiquarian-nostalgic than the English Hymnal, even in the appearance of the printed page. Did parishes actually use it, or was it primarily produced as an idealistic musicological and liturgical exercise?
Goal! I've got a well loved copy. I can't imagine for a moment it being used in a parish. George Woodward the editor was vicar of Walsingham., and wrote ken's bete noir "Ding Dong Merrily on High".
Westminster Hymnal was produced on the principle that only words by RCs were allowed (although non-RC translators, ie J M Neale, were allowed).
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
What's in the Mirfield Mission Hymnbook? In many missionary-minded Anglo-Catholic parishes in the past, Gregorian chant would be found cheek-by-jowl with the most over-ripe Victorian fruits of Moody & Sankey. Is this book a source of the latter type of material?
[/QB]
My own copy is in my reserve stock (under the bed...!), but from memory it is the only source enabling you to sing Will your anchor hold? at Benediction without needing another book as well!
So yes, it is a source of 'Moody & Sankey'-type material, but it also has a few distinctively Anglican Catholic 'mission hymns' as well, from memory hymns such as 'Let me come closer to thee, Jesus' by Fr Ignatius of Llanthony, and of course a hymn or two by Fr Tim Rees CR, soon to become Bishop of Llandaff.
There is also some paraliturgical material, as would be used when your parish had a 'Mirfield Mission'.
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
65 in MMH is
Jesus in thy dear Sacrament
Thy Cross I cannot see,
But the Crucified is offer'd there
And He was slain for me.
Jesus in the dear Sacrament
Thy Blood I cannot see,
But the Chalice glows with those red drops
On Calvary shed for me.
(a favourite of Ken Leech, when he was Rector of St Matthew's Bethnal Green.)
No 66 is then
Jesus keep me near the Cross;
There a precious fountain...
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711
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Posted
Another Roman Catholic hymnal I have come across is called "The Parish Hymn Book" Published in 1968 - presumanly to coincide with Vatican II? - it seems to include a number of hymns from cross-denonimational sources for the liturgical year and general sections.
It also includes 20 hymnns for the Blessed Virgin Mary, different settings for Benediction, and a number of hymns for mass divided between entrance, gradual, offertory, communion, and final hymns.
Posts: 452 | From: North London | Registered: Jun 2010
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
And I've got that on the shelves also. It dates from 1968 and includes non-catholic writers, including six hymns by Charles Wesley and three by Watts.
But whereas Westminster Hymnal was terribly tasteful, it includes the sort of popular thing that an RC Vaughan Williams would have confined to an appendix: Bring flowers of the rarest being the ripest example.
Cardinal Heenan wrote in the preface "The new Parish Hymnal is welcome because it will halt the decline in congregational singing. Soon we will have vernacular versions of the Mass in new musical settings but we shall not have completely satifactory words and music for the Mass until after a long period of experiment".
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
What is or was the Yattendon Hymnal? Referred to by Betjeman in one of his poems. From the context I imagine it is even more arts-and-crafty rushes-on-the-floor Dearmer-and Noelish than the EH.
Pretty much. By Robert Bridges. Arts-and-crafty, greenery-yallery, gothickly-revived stuff, intended for a good amateur choir rather than for a congregation, and hence with that most un-English of things in a hymnbook, printed music. Famous for its typography and layout. Good pictures of it here though musically it wasn;t so successful. There is a very interesting article about it here, rather disparaging on the musical quality of the arrangements. Its also a rather odd selection of songs, deliberately a bit old-fashioned and very English. Contents list here.
I think its spiritual successor was Songs of Praise, beloved of real and imitation public schools, edited by Vaughan Williams, Shaw, and Dearmer. Its nothing like such a pretty book, but it includes most of the "common core" of hymns that churches might need, and its a lot more singable. Which you would expect with the input it had from musicians like RVW, Holst, aand the Shaws. And has something of the same feel of a rather self-conscious Englishness, socially conservative but politically liberal, blatantly patriotic, dutifully religious rather than enthusiastically Christian. Of course all that was even more egregiously out of place in the 1920s than in the 1900s (never mind the 1960s when we still used the book at our school assemblies)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
And has something of the same feel of a rather self-conscious Englishness, socially conservative but politically liberal,
That sounds an excellent summary of the mentality behind English Hymnal and the Parson's Handbook which someone was asking about elsewhere.
I wonder if the promotion/creation of specific Englishness was meant as a criticism of jingoistic Britishness?
I could get quite religiously excited by English Hymnal.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Cardinal Heenan wrote in the preface "The new Parish Hymnal is welcome because it will halt the decline in congregational singing.".
What a shame that this - and other hymnals - have done no such thing. So few English Catholics sing that I wonder why they even bother scheduling hymns at mass. Such a contrast with Germany.
Posts: 452 | From: North London | Registered: Jun 2010
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