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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
If one could look the world over and find muslims only as pushy as the Amish then there wouldn't be a problem.

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I'm already aware of what you have said and still maintain my opinion of Islam. If one could look the world over and find muslims only as pushy as the Amish then there wouldn't be a problem.

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I'm already aware of what you have said and still maintain my opinion of Islam. If one could look the world over and find muslims only as pushy as the Amish then there wouldn't be a problem.

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Originally posted by Niteowl2:
[QB] Your last post in the 2012 election thread showed your absolute ignorance of Islam. There are different branches or "denominations" of Islam just as there are of Christianity and Judaism. Many Saudis practice Wahabi Islam, which is what we know/see as radical Islam. There other 2 main branches are Sunni and Shia. Most in the U.S. practice Suffi Islam, which is a very liberal branch and blends in well with the West.

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Radical Islam makes up a tiny percentage of Islam as a whole, but it gets all of the attention in the press.

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There are approx. 2 million Muslims in the world. If they were what you believe we'd be up to our chests in blood.

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I question whether you've even read the Quran as a whole or know Muslims in your area.

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I am a Christian, but I've taken the considerable time to properly educate myself on other religions - especially before holding myself out as an expert. Your posts are nothing but ignorant, hate filled rants with nothing to back them up.

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Those of your ilk fail to realize that you stir up anger and hate, possibly helping a young Muslim onto the path of extremism when they are rejected in their own countries. Educate yourself and then make a positive effort to reach out to Muslims in your area.

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In that case it was Christians slaughtering Muslims, but I certainly don't judge Christianity by that, just as I don't judge Islam by the tiny faction bent on bloodshed.

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Originally posted by Niteowl2:
STFU with the hate before you do.

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:

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Originally posted by Niteowl2:
STFU with the hate before you do.

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If only you were around to tell Muhammed that.

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:

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Originally posted by Niteowl2:
[QB] Your last post in the 2012 election thread showed your absolute ignorance of Islam. There are different branches or "denominations" of Islam just as there are of Christianity and Judaism. Many Saudis practice Wahabi Islam, which is what we know/see as radical Islam. There other 2 main branches are Sunni and Shia. Most in the U.S. practice Suffi Islam, which is a very liberal branch and blends in well with the West.

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I already know that. You need to remember my problem is with Islam, not with muslims, unless they are are the pushy, militant kind.

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Radical Islam makes up a tiny percentage of Islam as a whole, but it gets all of the attention in the press.

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I believe a so-called "radical" muslim knows Islam better than you, though.

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There are approx. 2 million Muslims in the world. If they were what you believe we'd be up to our chests in blood.

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You might want to update that number.

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I question whether you've even read the Quran as a whole or know Muslims in your area.

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Read it and know Muslims. From what I read their Allah hates me.

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I am a Christian, but I've taken the considerable time to properly educate myself on other religions - especially before holding myself out as an expert. Your posts are nothing but ignorant, hate filled rants with nothing to back them up.

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If this was before I'd read the koran and learned what their Allah thinks of me, you might have a point.

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Those of your ilk fail to realize that you stir up anger and hate, possibly helping a young Muslim onto the path of extremism when they are rejected in their own countries. Educate yourself and then make a positive effort to reach out to Muslims in your area.

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When I read it I certainly see some big time hate stirred up against the both of us.

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In that case it was Christians slaughtering Muslims, but I certainly don't judge Christianity by that, just as I don't judge Islam by the tiny faction bent on bloodshed.

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That's just it, when I read the koran what I see is a vile hatred taught against the non-muslim. That's why I don't like Islam.

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
(I never know…Are we supposed to count Ottoman atrocities as Islamic ones or Turkish ones? )

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Well you're the expert. Which do you think? I'm trying to get some atrocity direction here.

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Well you're the expert. Which do you think? I'm trying to get some atrocity direction here.

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Originally posted by Niteowl2:
Can you judge Christianity based on this tiny microcosm? Or on Bosnia?

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I'd say no just as you can't judge Islam based on a tiny faction that practices bloodshed.

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Originally posted by orfeo:
I'm glad this made it to Hell. Because now I'm free to express how bloody ridiculous it is to look at the kind of radical Islam practised in, say, parts of Saudi Arabia and think it tells you anything at all about how Islam is practised in Morocco, Mali or Malaysia.

Any more than Christianity in the deep Baptist South of America tells you anything about how Christianity is practised in my neck of the woods.

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Malaysia and Morocco?

There isn't a single shipmate living in the Southern United States who would continue living in the Southern United States if Southern Baptists had as much power in the Southern United States as Muslims have in Malaysia and Morocco. Southern Baptists wouldn't accept that much power even if it was offered to them. And you offer these two as examples of Muslim tolerance?

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originally posted by Niteowl2:
Most in the U.S. practice Suffi Islam

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Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

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originally posted by Niteowl2:
Most in the U.S. practice Suffi Islam

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Not even close

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
(I never know…Are we supposed to count Ottoman atrocities as Islamic ones or Turkish ones? )

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Originally posted by monkeylizard:

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Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

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originally posted by Niteowl2:
Most in the U.S. practice Suffi Islam

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Not even close

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Beeswax Altar is correct.

There are currently 12 mosques in my middle Tennessee area. 9 are Sunni, 2 Shia, and 1 non denominational.

For a broader perspective, I checked NYC. Of the 56 mosques in Brooklyn, 53 are Sunni, 2 are Shia, and 1 is Sufi.

Source: http://www.salatomatic.com/

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Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
I'm glad this made it to Hell. Because now I'm free to express how bloody ridiculous it is to look at the kind of radical Islam practised in, say, parts of Saudi Arabia and think it tells you anything at all about how Islam is practised in Morocco, Mali or Malaysia.

Any more than Christianity in the deep Baptist South of America tells you anything about how Christianity is practised in my neck of the woods.

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Malaysia and Morocco?

There isn't a single shipmate living in the Southern United States who would continue living in the Southern United States if Southern Baptists had as much power in the Southern United States as Muslims have in Malaysia and Morocco. Southern Baptists wouldn't accept that much power even if it was offered to them. And you offer these two as examples of Muslim tolerance?

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Would this be the same tiny fraction that rioted over those Danish cartoons a while back? Or another tiny fraction?

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originally posted by orfeo:
I most certainly cite them as an example of Muslim difference. Morocco actively discourages the importation of the Saudi brand of Islam.

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originally posted by orfeo:
As for tolerance, Malaysia quite deliberately distinguishes between its Muslim population and its non-Muslim population, which is nearly 40%, and does not require non-Muslims to behave as if they were Muslims.

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originally posted by orfeo:
And Morocco has considerable links with Europe, not least with tourism which happens in a way that would be utterly inconceivable in Saudi Arabia.

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

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Originally posted by Niteowl2:
Can you judge Christianity based on this tiny microcosm? Or on Bosnia?

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No, but we can always throw in the Crusades, the Inquisition and a bunch of other stuff.

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I'd say no just as you can't judge Islam based on a tiny faction that practices bloodshed.

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Would this be the same tiny fraction that rioted over those Danish cartoons a while back? Or another tiny fraction?

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Originally posted by Niteowl2:
Let's see, a lot of other posts stating that some countries legally mandate Islam. Note the government, not the people. I view this about the same way I did when the communists mandated atheism - it's about consolidation of power over the populace, not about religion. You see what happens when people challenge that power. ETA you see the same reaction the communists had even when the populace are majority Muslim. It's about power not religion.

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Originally posted by Niteowl2:
And Orfeo is right. Anyone watching the current elections here can see Evangelical Christianity holds most of the power here. There was the same vitriol and spite dour predictions when a Muslim was actually elected to Congress. Everyone's Christian credentials are challenged in just about every election.

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And that's just stupid. Let's see. The Democrats will run an incumbent president who was a member of the UCC and a Roman Catholic VP. The Republicans will likely run a Mormon as their candidate. Most Evangelicals don't even consider Mormons to be Christians. The guy in second place is Roman Catholic. Roman Catholics aren't Evangelicals. Evangelical Christians can't even get the Republicans to nominate an Evangelical Christian. Damn...those Evangelicals are powerful...

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

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Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
OK...let's see.

George W. Bush was United Methodist. He is the only Republican president that could be considered an Evangelical and he was a member of a mainline denomination. Bill Clinton was Southern Baptist but the Evangelicals mostly voted for the United Methodist, Bob Dole, and Episcopalian, George H.W. Bush. George H.W. Bush was Episcopalian. Ronald Reagan was Disciples of Christ though he didn't attend church much. Jimmy Carter was Southern Baptist but progressives love him. Richard Nixon was Quaker. Lyndon Johnson was Southern Baptist and progressives sure like a lot of the things he did as well. Every single president from an Evangelical denomination has been a Democrat. With the exception of Bill Clinton, Evangelicals haven't had much electoral success. Truman barely won a full term and would have lost a second term. Johnson decided not to seek reelection. Carter lost his campaign for reelection. The Republicans have never even nominated an Evangelical for president.

You can't seriously compare that to Muslim power in Morocco? Forget about Malaysia. Remember those are the tolerant and moderate Muslim countries.

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Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

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Originally posted by Niteowl2:
Let's see, a lot of other posts stating that some countries legally mandate Islam. Note the government, not the people. I view this about the same way I did when the communists mandated atheism - it's about consolidation of power over the populace, not about religion. You see what happens when people challenge that power. ETA you see the same reaction the communists had even when the populace are majority Muslim. It's about power not religion.

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Well, if you notice that in nearly every predominantly Muslim nation, Islam is the official religion and in most of those nations adherents of other religion are persecuted to varying degrees, then it's probably the religion and not just the governments. Claiming that most Muslims are more tolerant than their government is simply absurd. Name the last time a Muslim popular movement brought more freedom for non Muslims. I can think of one period and I'm defining Muslim popular movement loosely.

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Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:


You can't seriously compare that to Muslim power in Morocco? Forget about Malaysia. Remember those are the tolerant and moderate Muslim countries.

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originally posted by Niteowl2:
Just pointing out the power that evangelicals have built up. Take a look at the current presidential election. Even Obama is sucking up to the evangelicals. My other problem with this is that the voters fall for it - take all of the nice "family values" good evangelicals in Congress that have been caught in affairs - both straight and gay.

As to government run religion - remember it's about power, not really religion. Just like the communists - and the same thing happens to the majority Muslim populations when they protest: the government turns on them.

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Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
... It's human nature to become more rigid and intolerant when one perceives that their identity is being eroded by outsiders.

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Originally posted by orfeo:
... we've got an avowedly atheist Prime Minister over here (and a woman to boot! living in sin with her boyfriend!) and hardly anyone gives a shit.

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Horribly degenerate bunch over there, y'all, aintcha.

Anything more to say, Mere Nick, or is the Purgatory-like commentary too good to interrupt?

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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

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Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
OK...let's see.

George W. Bush was United Methodist. He is the only Republican president that could be considered an Evangelical and he was a member of a mainline denomination. Bill Clinton was Southern Baptist but the Evangelicals mostly voted for the United Methodist, Bob Dole, and Episcopalian, George H.W. Bush. George H.W. Bush was Episcopalian. Ronald Reagan was Disciples of Christ though he didn't attend church much. Jimmy Carter was Southern Baptist but progressives love him. Richard Nixon was Quaker. Lyndon Johnson was Southern Baptist and progressives sure like a lot of the things he did as well. Every single president from an Evangelical denomination has been a Democrat. With the exception of Bill Clinton, Evangelicals haven't had much electoral success. Truman barely won a full term and would have lost a second term. Johnson decided not to seek reelection. Carter lost his campaign for reelection. The Republicans have never even nominated an Evangelical for president.

You can't seriously compare that to Muslim power in Morocco? Forget about Malaysia. Remember those are the tolerant and moderate Muslim countries.

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Originally posted by orfeo:
I do find it funny that people get worked up about a legal mandate for Islam, when a very large proportion of the Ship come from a country where the head of State is also the head of the church.

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Yeah, and we have to watch all these beheadings of adulterers and apostates from the C of E.

You're a nice chap, orfeo, but you need to keep a tighter rein on your Inner Dickhead.

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

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Originally posted by QLib:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
I do find it funny that people get worked up about a legal mandate for Islam, when a very large proportion of the Ship come from a country where the head of State is also the head of the church.

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Yeah, and we have to watch all these beheadings of adulterers and apostates from the C of E.

You're a nice chap, orfeo, but you need to keep a tighter rein on your Inner Dickhead.

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Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

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originally posted by Niteowl2:
Just pointing out the power that evangelicals have built up. Take a look at the current presidential election. Even Obama is sucking up to the evangelicals. My other problem with this is that the voters fall for it - take all of the nice "family values" good evangelicals in Congress that have been caught in affairs - both straight and gay.

As to government run religion - remember it's about power, not really religion. Just like the communists - and the same thing happens to the majority Muslim populations when they protest: the government turns on them.

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What would become Evangelicalism in the United States had its genesis in the Second Great Awakening. Theologically conservative Christians had much more political power in the 19th and early 20th centuries than now. Evangelicals were actually able to get constitutional amendments passed. What have Evangelicals got for all their participation in politics? Next to nothing

Governments use Islam. However, they give lip service to Islam in order to pacify more conservative Muslims. Ask the Coptic Christians in Egypt. Ask the Assyrian Christians of Iraq (what's left of them). Ask the Christians of Syria. Popular Muslim uprisings do not produce more tolerant governments. George W. Bush based his entire foreign policy on the exact same assumption you are making. He was wrong and so are you.

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Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Governments use Islam. However, they give lip service to Islam in order to pacify more conservative Muslims.

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Originally posted by orfeo:
I do find it funny that people get worked up about a legal mandate for Islam, when a very large proportion of the Ship come from a country where the head of State is also the head of the church.

The law on the books is only one element of what happens as a practical reality.

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[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
[9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!
[9.31] They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah son of Marium and they were enjoined that they should serve one God only, there is no god but He; far from His glory be what they set up (with Him).

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And there are, certainly, among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), those who believe in God and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before God. They do not sell the Verses of God for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, God is Swift in account. [Quran 3:199]


And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him do we submit. [Quran 29:46]

Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve . [Quran 2:62]

Say (O Muhammad ): "O people of the Scripture : Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but God, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides God. [Quran 3:64]

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