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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The rubble of faith
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
What do you do when your faith collapses? And then, when all motivation to go to church follows it?
Complicating matters is that I'm an EfM co-mentor. (EfM -- Education for Ministry -- is a program of education for lay people.) My biggest asset there is my ability to ask questions to prompt discussion and reflection, but as my memory of faith recedes, I wonder more and more whether I can be effective.
My sense of God disappeared about two years ago, and this winter in a delayed reaction my desire to go to church has diminished greatly.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
My penn'oth - give up on church. There is nothing that kills genuine faith like church. And then explore what faith means without church, because that is a lot more fun.
Some resources on my web site might be helpful Bored.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Thanks, Schroedinger's cat. In what way(s) do you find that church destroys genunine faith?
And by saying "genuine faith," do you mean that there's a fake faith that perhaps is nurtured (or at least not destroyed) by church?
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
Are there other aspects of your faith community that might interest you more right now than the worship service?
I ask because during a time of great sadness, I found that I could not go to worship, but I continued participating in a small group, and that sustained me until I was ready for worship again.
I know some people do not like the idea of a church affiliation being primarily social, but at times, that's what gets a person through.
And sometimes being in community is a form of faith, even though it might not seem to be.
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
sabine, you say "community is a form of faith," and it gets me thinking that I'm not even sure what faith is any more.
Believing God to be the creator of all things? Fail. Accepting Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour? Fail (I just have enormous problems with this formula, though other statements about Christ I might accept). Believing all of the Nicene Creed literally? Fail. Believing in a life after death? Fail. Having an active prayer life? Fail. Trying to live compassionately and honestly? Pass.
It's not so much that I can't go to church, or that I'm bored there, it's just that I'm not drawn there any more. I find I'm either too tired to want to get up, or would rather play the piano (at home).
Here's an odd thing. I read the Evangelist part in our dramatic reading of the Passion Gospel on Palm Sunday. I don't normally act as a lector these days, and definitely not at the early service, but they were short of people and asked, so I figured, sure. The odd thing is I got lots of compliments. The even odder thing is that I didn't prepare specially at all, and wasn't thinking about trying to read well beyond trying to enunciate clearly, and reading it I guess with my own sense of reverence for the events narrated. My rector said that she thought I had the feeling in it. I told her that I may struggle with the propositional truths of Christianity, but I'm still captured by the feeling.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
I reached a point in the past where all I had was the feeling. I held onto it by the skin of my teeth and eventually found my way back round to a more 'conventional' faith. In my case sticking with church helped, even though there were many many Sundays where I really didn't know why I was there. Perhaps for you it wouldn't. I don't know. In hindsight I wonder if in trying to hold onto God we under-estimate the extent to which God holds on to us. I think that feeling was God's holding onto me, even as everything else in me was falling away.
[ 09. April 2012, 18:54: Message edited by: Yerevan ]
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Thanks, Schroedinger's cat. In what way(s) do you find that church destroys genuine faith?
And by saying "genuine faith," do you mean that there's a fake faith that perhaps is nurtured (or at least not destroyed) by church?
Actually, my latest blog post covers some of this - see my sig. And yes there is - there is a real danger of having faith in church, not in God. That is genuinely faith, but not genuine Christian faith.
How does the church destroy Christian faith? IMO, Christian faith is about a relationship with God. The danger is that churchiness so often gets in the way of developing this relationship. And so often, church does not show Christianity at its best. The politics and infighting that are a natural part of church are enough to put most people off, which is why they are often hidden so most people don't see them.
In simple terms, is having long public arguments about women bishops actually helping anyone in developing their relationship with God? Probably not. So why bother?
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
quote:
Trying to live compassionately and honestly? Pass.
Okay, so work on that bit - and I'm not sure that seeing the others as a "fail" is necessarily helpful. There are many places where I diverge from creedal faith, so much so that I doubt I really qualify as Christian but these days I really doubt that that bothers "God" any more than it bothers me!
I believe there is a purpose and I believe I am part of that purpose and that, for me and at the moment, is enough.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
My penn'oth - give up on church. There is nothing that kills genuine faith like church. And then explore what faith means without church, because that is a lot more fun.
Some resources on my web site might be helpful Bored.
Yes.
All my life there is a pattern of too much church and I become irritable in personality plus stop believing in God, or these days I can't stop believing but I stop caring, not quite the right words, stop taking the time to notice and enjoy God.
Stay away from church for a while (months, maybe a year or two) and I'm enjoying God again. Then I start going to church and lose it again. So for me, church is an anti-icon. I say "Church doesn't work for me." Which of course brings all those "you must be living in sin" lectures from people for whom church does work (or who have a need to pretend it does).
The book Sacred Pathways was a huge help in understanding what may be going on. It says formal churches are structured in ways that serve as spiritual connection for about 1/3rd of the population. (Who, of course insist it works for them therefore it works for everyone and if you say it doesn't work for you that proves you are blinded by rebellion or sin or something.)
The rest of us NEED something that cannot be found inside the institution if we are to "see" God. So of course we have to get away from the church to re-connect with God -- through being in nature or playing the piano at home alone or taking food to shut-ins or etc.
That's one reason *I* would advise just leave. Be more fully who you are and pursue what resonates spiritually (in the broad sense) with you instead of doing what others insist is supposed to resonate (in some narrow specific sense) with you.
A wholly different reason is, church institution calls so much attention to itself, to the needs any organization has whether or not there is a God -- committee meetings & fund raisings & sign-up lists and work projects and which projects should you grit your teeth and do as your fair share of the scut work and how do I survive the politics of this situation without making enemies -- some of us just find it all so distracting we lose any sight of God in the organizational busyness. Getting away from the institution allows all that distraction to fall away and you start seeing God again.
A compromise I've tried with some (not great but some) success and a few friends are adopting, is a concept I learned here on the Ship -- social theme club. In one church I told the clergy person I dislike Sunday morning so I am looking for other ways to be involved. (That wouldn't fly in some churches.) I now coordinate a monthly supper club and show up for the prayer shawl knitting group and deliver meals to shut-ins -- and rarely "go to church", they see me half a dozen Sundays a year. I get to be making friends with people who share some of my God-oriented (we hope) values, without over-exposure to the God-dimming (to me) formal "church" program.
Do what works for you, don't do what anti-works for you. God dwells in our honesty, not in our putting on a show of what we are told by others they are are "supposed to do."
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Faith isn't always easy, and it isn't always going to be something we feel. Sometimes, one has to simply make the conscious decision to be faithful beyond any feeling or sense of God. Sometimes there is nothing but the cry in the wilderness. Indeed, it is the truest faith when one believes in what one cannot see.
Yet the question of faith is not a question to be asked alone, but in community. That is what the Church exists, in part, to do- to be that community where one says "I believe." Don't give up on the Church is what I'm saying.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Faith isn't always easy, and it isn't always going to be something we feel. Sometimes, one has to simply make the conscious decision to be faithful beyond any feeling or sense of God. Sometimes there is nothing but the cry in the wilderness. Indeed, it is the truest faith when one believes in what one cannot see.
Yet the question of faith is not a question to be asked alone, but in community. That is what the Church exists, in part, to do- to be that community where one says "I believe." Don't give up on the Church is what I'm saying.
Seconded. I went through a period of 3 years when God just wasn't there. The discipline of going to church was the only thing that got me through, even though at times I resented it and believed nothing of what I was doing.
The other thing is: if you find you give a fail grade to some of the things you listed, maybe that's an indication of an area that needs work... I am specifically thinking about the prayer area because that's basic to all the rest - including acts of service to others (food for the shutins etc)...
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Coming at this from a different angle, is there some specific issue or process you can date this to ? Irrc there were some tensions for you within the church - it maybe difficult for you to shift things emotionally /faithwise if these conflicts feel unresolved. Even if the resolution is simply a letting go of bitterness or a letting go of an aapiration for a more meaningful friendship with such and such a person or an acceptance of a specific role or path within the church.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
quote:
My sense of God disappeared about two years ago, and this winter in a delayed reaction my desire to go to church has diminished greatly.
Yeah - my sense of God slowly tricked away over 5 years until I wondered what I was doing going to church? So I didn't for a while.
I go back now and then, just to a said communion service - my idea of worship is not stand up, sing, sit down say something, stand up, sing etc. etc. etc-boring-era
I found my particular CofE was draining my faith. But I have at last found someone to talk to, will start after my hols in a month.
Hopefully this will help.
Actually, it was the Ship wot kept me vaguely Christian.
Keep on coming, AR!
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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Mary LA
Shipmate
# 17040
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Posted
The OP said: My biggest asset there is my ability to ask questions to prompt discussion and reflection, but as my memory of faith recedes, I wonder more and more whether I can be effective
My first post as a newcomer, so posting tentatively; but perhaps that involvement with Education for Ministry might be part of the problem? It sounds as if you are valuable because the tougher or more challenging questions are what is needed, but it is hard to do that when all the answers seem unsatisfactory to you.
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“I often wonder if we were all characters in one of God's dreams.”
― Muriel Spark
Posts: 499 | From: Africa | Registered: Apr 2012
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
What do you do when your faith collapses? And then, when all motivation to go to church follows it?
I blog. Seriously.
All the other answers I came up with (and most of the ones on this thread) suffered from the same problem - they presupposed starting points and even end points. By blogging, I can get my thoughts in order in my own way, without having to explain or excuse anything.
Previously, it was like I was looking at a creed and crossing bits out or commenting in the margins. But that was quite constraining, and made my thoughts reactive. It's very easy to get stuck in old routines and thought processes. So I ripped it up, and started my blog as a blank sheet of paper. I know roughly where I started, but I have no idea where I'll end up. That might sound scary, but you're completely in control - it's your thoughts and beliefs that drive it.
It allows you to try things out, explore ideas, and I find that I often only find out what I really think when I start to put my thoughts down in pixels. I was once writing what I thought was going to be the last line of a post when I found another thought pushing itself forward, and had to carry on.
FWIW, I offer that as an option. I can't help with church, though. I've currently got church in a sort of holding pattern until I start to reach some firm conclusions. You may find that useful, or you may feel inclined to get more or less engaged with it. The important thing is to create the best environment for you to work out what you want/think.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I try to take a whole month off every year, which keeps me sane (mostly). Fortunately, my choir is not expected to attend services in August, so that works out really well.
Interesting that some people say they're 'bored with church' - rather like schools, churches feel they have to make what they provide more and more exciting, dynamic and often rather silly, in order to stop people getting bored. But they still do. (And they pee off a lot of other people in the process who don't really want to attend some sort of hyperactive organisation on speed.) Let's hear it for some calm.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Essentially this is about a relationship between you and God. It’s not about you and the church. The church is a framework to help you find that relationship, and sometimes it doesn’t work because your needs at that time have changed. There are ebbs and flows in the spiritual life as in any other kind of relationship.
You can force yourself to go to church. It works for some people, it didn’t for me.
What comes up at such times is something you need to listen to. You say you’re not drawn to church, and you’d rather play the piano than go. Which suggests to me that getting actively involved in some kind of creative expression probably makes you feel more alive than sitting listening to the same old liturgy you’ve been listening to for a long time. And that’s absolutely fine. You can “live” prayer through creativity or through practical action – going to church is only one way of experiencing a relationship with God and there’s more to the divine than having it channelled through one particular avenue.
I suspect this is the time, as SC says, when you start looking round for your own way of expressing faith, rather than trying to use a pre-defined version that doesn’t work for you any more. It doesn’t mean you’ve necessarily lost faith. It may well be that the idea is for you to discover seeing it from a different angle – maybe through music, maybe through nature, maybe through some other means. It may be that a spiritual break will refresh you and you will find you go back to it all one of these days. Either way, it sounds like part of the journey, rather than a standing still. Good luck!
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
sabine, you say "community is a form of faith," and it gets me thinking that I'm not even sure what faith is any more.
IMO, faith can be experienced in many ways. Are there things in this world that move you deeply, that you think we'd all be poorer for not having (perhaps piano music, to use an example from your own post)? Are there talents you have that bring joy to your life? Is there a part of the world around you that you find wonderous? Do you appreciate the friendships you have?
These things are all of something larger than dogma, IMO.
I was sad to see you use the word "fail" when referring to your lack of belief in certain specific constructs of the Christian religion. If you are setting up this human-made institution as the default and then judging yourself for not falling in line, you may well be putting a big obstacle between yourself and God and all that God has provided us.
Sorry if this sounds like a lecture. I don't mean it to be that way. I just feel a bit sad when someone who seems to be seeking looks only in one place for the answers. Grace is everywhere--but we have to work at being open to seeing it.
Embrace the world around you. . .God will provide the context in which you can be in relationship with God and appreciate all the magnificance of creation.
And then, if it seems right, you might go to church.
sabine
[tidied up inadvertent quote - WW]
[ 10. April 2012, 14:00: Message edited by: Welease Woderwick ]
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
sabine, no worries, you didn't sound like you were lecturing at all. You've given me some very new perspectives on which to reflect. I can't say anything further, because what you say is so new to me, but I will be reflecting on your words a lot.
Yerevan and others, thank you for letting me know I'm not alone in experiencing this situation.
I'm not bored by church, and I don't find it inimical to my faith (whatever my faith may be right now). It's just that sleeping or piano these days often seem more attractive come Sunday morning. This is so strange: for years church has been one of the overriding interests of my life, and it's odd to have that change. Church as a focus for meeting God, not just as church-organization obsession.
When I first started having this collapse of faith two years ago, my rector suggested just continue to come to church, to soak up the atmosphere. The music, the stained glass, the Eucharist, the flowers... not to worry about the beliefs. I often disagreed with him, but this was advice I found immensely useful. Odd for things to have changed, unless I can regain a sense of just resting in the service.
Zach82 mentions the community aspect of working out our faith in church, and I don't get that. Never really have. Can you say more?
One wierd thing about me and my church is that I have almost never clicked with any of the small groups they have where we're supposed to be able to form connections and explore my faith. I've given up trying to figure out why, and come to just accept it as a mystifying fact of life. (EfM meets at a different church, and has been a blessed exception to this mystery, but then it's at a different church, so doesn't count in the "my church's groups don't work for me" statistics.)
This has been one of the reasons I value EfM so much, because (at least when I was a plain student in the group, before I became a co-mentor) it was a place I could be completely open about my faith and my doubts, and be heard and accepted. I guess that's one thing that has changed (although I don't think it's the source of my malaise, rather it's a result): as a mentor, I feel like I ought to be providing an example from a position of orthodox (small o) Christianity, rather than from a position of radical doubt. Especially when everyone else in the group is pretty orthodox: there's no place any more for me to explore my own doubts and how to make sense of my experience and find a way forward. What sabine posted is much more helpful than EfM has been recently, in that regard.
Think² asked what has changed, and I'm not sure. A watershed event a few months before my collapse of faith was that I was hospitalized for a week with depression. While I was in the hospital, and for a few months afterwards, I found reading morning and evening prayer enormously comforting. And then it stopped being comforting, and became just an occasion for wrestling with words, and then my sense of God vanished.
Correlated with the collapse that precipitated being in the hospital, I dropped all the church volunteer things I was doing (except for the EfM co-mentorship). It was a long list -- 10 things IIRC. I planned to definitely not do anything until the following January (this was in May). But come the following January, I was surprised to find out that I had no desire to pick up any of these things again, or anything else. And these were all things I had done out of great passion and really loved, not things that I felt pressured or guilted into doing. From that day to this, I haven't found anything I want to volunteer for, and I am fortunate that, unlike Belle Ringer's churches, I am perfectly accepted without having to participate or volunteer.
Still ruminating on all you've all said...
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290
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Posted
me too, AR - about 2 yrs ago - summat they put in the water? ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain
Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
[sends Jahlove a gallon jug of distilled water]
I just thought of another thing that correlates -- two years ago when this started was when I graduated from EfM and started being only a co-mentor (I was jointly a student and co-mentor in my fourth year of EfM).
That is a very very strange thought!
Another strange thing, maybe connected or maybe not, is that the fourth year of EfM is about theology, and gives descriptions of the thought of many different theologians. I didn't understand a word any of them are saying. I thought maybe it would help to go to the primary sources, but no luck -- still can't understand a word.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
What do you do when your faith collapses? And then, when all motivation to go to church follows it?
For me it was the other way around. I walked away from church when I was just too emotionally, spiritually and physically worn out to continue. When, a few years later, I started to tentatively think about returning, I found I no longer believed a lot of what I had believed. I realised a lot of my faith had existed because it was constantly re-inforced by those around me.
It's also significant perhaps that a final straw for me was when I was "fired" from a co-leadership role in a small group. When I no longer needed to turn up because of that I decided not to turn up at all.
I do miss it. (Hence still being here for instance) But the things I miss are about community and friendship rather than Christianity per se. One day when I'm old and lonely and too cynical to care whether I'm being intellectually honest or not I'll probably go back... maybe
![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
For me, it's the other way around entirely - I absolutely love going to church. But it has to be the right sort of 'going to church' (think Choral Evensong and Choral Eucharist, played fairly straight, with Cathedral repertoire music and with a fairly intellectual sermon). The sort of provision which seems to be dying out in most places these days. What seems to be replacing it doesn't make me want to go to church much at all.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
I could have written most of AR's OP, EXCEPT that my church has at last moved to an attitude where the sense of community and doing things together takes precedence over diligence in fine detail of liturgy.
But "church" is structured so that meetings, involving a lot of formal prayer and little other purpose, are being called far too often, with the implied threat that, if you aren't specifically upholding The Prayer Book, you aren't really eligible to be in the club. The same goes for having lots of services portraying the nasty side of Holy Week, but never quite getting around to even mentioning Hope, or making a joyous occasion of Easter.
Since I don't need to be "in the club", this doesn't actually bother me much, although I will probably avoid having much to do with Holy Week next year! We live in hope!
But loss of community, or the downplaying of activity related to the Second Great Commandment, would drive me out of anything to do with "church".
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I would suggest depression severe enough to put you in hospital is not unlike being hit by a car. It is a severely adverse event from which it takes a substantial time to recover. It is often said it takes about two years to adjust to a really major loss / change in ones life. It maybe that you are still experiencing that. It seems that you experienced the ending of you efm student role as a major loss, if you have an idea what you were getting from it (an interested / interesting circle of friends ?), perhaps you can identify another source for that in your life. You may find the religious nature of the course was not the most important factor. You might find you get some of the same dynamic / satisfaction from a regular evening class for example.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
When you can't feel, do the right thing(s) anyway. When you're not sure what to do about it, backstep into doing the right thing(s), anyway. When you feel so bounded by numbness or even indecision you're not sure how to proceed -- just keep doing the next right thing. Anyway.
There's a reason why there's supposed to be an actual improvement in your mood, when it's foul or depressed, if you deliberately smile, if you take some sort of positive physical action. So, in the context of the OP -- do that. Try to figure out what the next right thing to do is -- or where the next right place to be is. Day by day and hour by hour if you have to.
Let the feelings take care of themselves.
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
When you can't feel, do the right thing(s) anyway. When you're not sure what to do about it, backstep into doing the right thing(s), anyway. When you feel so bounded by numbness or even indecision you're not sure how to proceed -- just keep doing the next right thing. Anyway.
I think if there was a self-evident "right thing" to do, AR's position would be much less difficult.
Wilson, do you think you were "fired" because you already had one foot out of the door (mentally, at least), or was it just a coincidental catalyst? PM me if you'd prefer.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
The Great Gumby, I've been reading your blog and finding it helpful. I agree with you that it's not obvious what is the right thing to do.
I suppose in one sense I don't have a dilemma: my moral compass is not particularly tied to my religious faith, or if it is, it's tied to a deeper sense of faith than simple dogma; it's tied to the type of faith that sabine suggested. So that's not in question.
Dilemmas might be, "should I force myself to go to church?" but on reflection I'm not sure I experience that as a dilemma; more as a regret for the loss of a feeling, and experiencing the situation as odd. I gather some feel I should force myself to go to church, but on reflection I'm not convinced by that.
Another dilemma might be, and this I do experience as a dilemma: do I continue as an EfM co-mentor? And if so, how do I present myself? What kinds of questions should I be asking the group, when I can't be motivated by primary Christian faith myself in asking questions/leading discussions?
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
In the first few years after I became a Friend I spent a fair amount of time thinking about what I really did believe and so shed vast amounts of dogma - I think I have narrowed it down to just about I believe in God and even then I don't try and define that, and no longer feel I need to do so - at first it worried me a bit but then it became very freeing.
An image that has helped me in the past is the idea of the path up the mountain - we are all climbing the mountain and sometimes we come to a plateau and feel comfortable for a while but then we face another steep bit - we all tread our own path; no, that is not right - some travel in groups and often tell others that they have The True Path - but they can still face struggles. Others of us move more independently and sometimes travel a while with a group or another individual and then branch off again - and the thing is that it is ALL all right. There is no wrong or right way to do it, as long as you keep climbing. Sometimes you curse the slope and sometimes you enjoy the climb - and sometimes you get a little nudge that says "not that way" - and it really is all okay.
If carrying on with your EfM role helps then carry on, if it doesn't then let it go - but let it go gently and with gratitude for what it has shown you.
All shall be well, and all shall be well and all manner of things shall be well. - Mother Julian.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
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What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Dilemmas might be, "should I force myself to go to church?"
No. Perhaps its time to take a break.
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Another dilemma might be, and this I do experience as a dilemma: do I continue as an EfM co-mentor? And if so, how do I present myself? What kinds of questions should I be asking the group, when I can't be motivated by primary Christian faith myself in asking questions/leading discussions?
Personally, I would quit.
I think it's important to believe what you're doing in this context and if you don't or can't at the moment - people can sense that.
I notice you are an Episcopalian on your profile.
Have you considered seeing a Spiritual Director? Not sure if they are common in the USA but they are here in Australia.
btw, depression is no small thing. It affects everything - including faith.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
As hard as it might be to believe at times, the life of the Church is the life of the Kingdom of God. Once again, this does not mean that it is always obviously so, but for those who want to be people of faith, who want to follow Christ, the call is to the Church and deeper into the Church.
This has many qualifications. I am not saying that people should remain in situations of abuse for the sake of faith. I am not saying that remaining in the Church always "feels right." I am certainly not saying that simply going to church necessarily makes one a better person. Least of all am I saying that participation in Church can take the place of a life of prayer and striving for personal piety. But the Church is part of seeking after Christ, and that "the scandal will come." There is comes a time in every Christian's life that the Cross becomes meaningless, and when he or she must live with nothing but the conscious decision to keep believing. The Church is part of that decision. There is no Christianity without the Church.
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
As hard as it might be to believe at times, the life of the Church is the life of the Kingdom of God.
Crap. In the nicest possible way. Christianity is about relationship to God, Church is not necessarily.
It is that sort of idea that kills far to much faith and life in people. If the church is not a positive part of your engagement with God, then get out. Maybe get another place that does, but maybe not. And if you are not part of a church, that does not mean you are not part of Gods family etc.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Crap. In the nicest possible way. Christianity is about relationship to God, Church is not necessarily.
The rub is the "relationship" part. Relationships happen in communities, not all on one's own. The Kingdom of God is a community, a certain community founded by God, not individuals shutting the world out because of some vague sense of "being fed" or what have you. So, in the nicest way possible, your "just me and God" line is crap.
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Wilson, do you think you were "fired" because you already had one foot out of the door (mentally, at least), or was it just a coincidental catalyst?
There may have been an element of that. To be honest though it wasn't working out and it was a relief to let go of the role. Part of the reason for that was I was also stressed out and extremely busy at work. The difference was that I at least got empathy and moral support at work.
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Crap. In the nicest possible way. Christianity is about relationship to God, Church is not necessarily.
The rub is the "relationship" part. Relationships happen in communities, not all on one's own. The Kingdom of God is a community, a certain community founded by God, not individuals shutting the world out because of some vague sense of "being fed" or what have you. So, in the nicest way possible, your "just me and God" line is crap.
From my readings of the Bible, the call to be a disciple is also a call to be in a Christian Community. That you cannot love God unless at the same time you love your fellow humans is my experience. YMMV
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by wilson:
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Wilson, do you think you were "fired" because you already had one foot out of the door (mentally, at least), or was it just a coincidental catalyst?
There may have been an element of that. To be honest though it wasn't working out and it was a relief to let go of the role. Part of the reason for that was I was also stressed out and extremely busy at work. The difference was that I at least got empathy and moral support at work.
Ouch!
AR, if you've been reading my blog you'll probably agree that we seem to be coming from a very similar position. ISTM that you're feeling increasingly drawn away from the church, to the point where you probably wouldn't be going if you were starting from scratch, but you're not sure how to balance that with habit, existing commitments and the fact that leaving now would feel more final than staying put for the time being.
I'm afraid I don't have answers, only more questions, but I suspect that debates about the role of the church in Christian life won't be scratching your itch.
One tentative suggestion I can offer is to consider what scares you most, and act accordingly. If you're scared that spending the odd Sunday playing the piano instead of going to church would make it too easy to drift away completely without meaning to, make sure you have commitments that force you to attend now and then. If you're scared of finding yourself trapped and expected to say/do things you don't believe in, resolve to say what you really think more and more (maybe starting with people you feel comfortable opening up to), rather than playing a role.
It isn't easy to work out what we fear most, and the practicalities of how to avoid those things may be tricky, but I hope that's useful to you.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
Can I ask a basic question? Do you actually want to rebuild your faith? Or do you want to send that rubble to landfill and put the idea of religious faith behind you? Most of the comments here presume the former and offer one way or another of tiding things over until you can rebuild. But if what you actually want is the latter then it is all rather wide of the mark.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
That's a good and important point. I'm assuming from my experience and from what AR's said that the answer at the moment is a big "Dunno!" But I may be very wrong about that.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Autenreith Road
It is a hunch based on your description of how this started, but I suspect you came to a crisis point (theologically it maybe a Kairos point) when you realised that your faith could sustain you as it had been doing.
The problem is that when a crisis actually happens it normally results in a sort of burn out. So depression and such following it would not be surprising.
The other thing is often your "spirit*" is wiser than your mind in such circumstances. Quite often the only way forward is the counter-intuitive of releasing everything. Trying to make yourself pick things up leads only to fresh burn out and feelings of failure.
So I suggest that you try to trust the process and release yourself from feeling of "shoulds" that the mind will apply.
I cannot guarantee you will come back to find everything as it was, you won't. But it won't come back through trying to make it either. However I have come to the conclusion through a similar but different experience that one can hold onto roles, disciplines and beliefs too tightly. That our hold needs to be gentle as if we grip too tightly they actually hurt us. However if we have been gripping too tightly the only way to do something different is to deliberately let go.
You will find what you need to take up, it will come like an itch you have to scratch, but at present the effort to hold on is blocking that ability to discern.
Jengie
*Spirit ~= to the Quaker idea of inner light.
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Crap. In the nicest possible way. Christianity is about relationship to God, Church is not necessarily.
The rub is the "relationship" part. Relationships happen in communities, not all on one's own. The Kingdom of God is a community, a certain community founded by God, not individuals shutting the world out because of some vague sense of "being fed" or what have you. So, in the nicest way possible, your "just me and God" line is crap.
From my readings of the Bible, the call to be a disciple is also a call to be in a Christian Community. That you cannot love God unless at the same time you love your fellow humans is my experience. YMMV
Yes, and community is not a synonym for institutionalization. I don't see in the Bible any hint that God set up an institution. I understand some strongly disagree.
I find Christian community in the gatherings with other Christians around a lunch table and the prayer meetings in a home and the conversations about the Bible or about what is a God-oriented response to a current problem.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
The Great Gumby, "debates about the role of the church in Christian life," I do find these intellectually interesting, even though the argument that we must be in a specific kind of Christian community is unconvincing to me.
What scares me most? A good question -- I have no idea! And thank you for providing me with the option of "Dunno" to Pre-cambrian's question of whether I want to rebuild my faith. You know, I would have thought the answer is "yes," which is what I tell my EfM group: that I wish I had a nice strong orthodox faith like they do. But now that I think about it, I don't know if that's actually true, when I'm away from my EfM group.
That makes me wonder if I do indeed need a break from EfM, because it enforces a kind of beholden-ness to Christian thought on me (or at least, I interpret my role as needing to support more orthodox Christian faith than mine), which I am not sure I know how to navigate any more.
Jengie Jon talks about burnout, and that was true in my church life prior to my hospitalization. The other big chaotic thing in my life for the last 3 1/2 years has been turmoil in my parents' lives, which has been spilling over into my life.
Jengie Jon, I like what you say/remind me of: about not holding things too tightly, and about letting go of "should's".
Belle Ringer, I'm with you on community/institution. I think it's Schroedinger's cat who points out somewhere that church works for some people, but not all people. And I say that as someone for whom church works just fine (except when I'm tired, or playing the piano, lol).
[ 13. April 2012, 21:56: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Yes, and community is not a synonym for institutionalization. I don't see in the Bible any hint that God set up an institution. I understand some strongly disagree.
I find Christian community in the gatherings with other Christians around a lunch table and the prayer meetings in a home and the conversations about the Bible or about what is a God-oriented response to a current problem.
No disagreement from me. Our community worships in a house and we support one another in other in our homes and cafe's etc, which I see in the Bible in Gal 6.2 Carry one another’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The danger is that churchiness so often gets in the way of developing this relationship. And so often, church does not show Christianity at its best. The politics and infighting that are a natural part of church are enough to put most people off, which is why they are often hidden so most people don't see them.
I'm afraid I won't be helpful here ... but I have to be honest. I have, like others, clung on to or been clung onto by faith for three and a half decades now, since I converted from atheism as a young adult. But I have no expectation that the Church is the Reign of God. The church always will and often has let me down, hurt me, whatever. So have rugby teams, drinking mates, political parties and novels.
But it is the place I am commanded to encounter the risen Christ. It is the place where the sacraments happen, where the Word is broken open, where koinonia occurs, even if sometimes more in the breech than the observance. I can see some reflections of God in creation (but as Wordsworth and Tennyson perhaps above all testify, that can bite one on the bum) but cannot reach out and receive God, digest God, argue God, be absolved by God, encounter crucified and resurrected God under my bhodi tree or on my cliff top.
Sure the Church lets me down. It's full of bastards, and has 2000 years of bastardry in its history. But I'm a bastard too. That's why I need Jesus. He isn't.
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
There are times I hate the church. The church has hurt my kids so much they want nothing to do with it. I long for the day one of my five grandchildren will get baptised. Church people are so often God's worst advertisement. And yet He loves the church. He loves me, my kids, my grandkids and you.
I wish so much I could love like that. Just love that much. But I don't. AR, if you're struggling, welcome to the club. Hallelujah.
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
Zappa - ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) - one for the Quotes File, I think.
AR - I can't add much to what others have said about letting go, but as regards EfM, I pass on what George Fox said to William Penn, when Penn asked if he should give up wearing his sword: "Wear it while thou canst." Penn eventually gave up his sword, but I'm not suggesting that you will necessarily give up EfM. It's simply that, when facing a decision like that, I find it better to think of what I can do rather than what I should do.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
So I suggest that you try to trust the process and release yourself from feeling of "shoulds" that the mind will apply.
Heartily seconded.
"Shoulds" kill when you're feeling like shit.
You have to let go of them to discover what is real.
On the other hand, when you feel like you are descending into chaos, madness and insanity, they are life giving. They provide a structure.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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