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Source: (consider it) Thread: Parents and God
Kaplan Corday
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It might just be pop psychology unsupported by any research, but there seems to be a widespread hunch that our childhood relationship with our father, in particular, has a lot to do with our perceptions of God.

(I am not talking here about Feuerbach’s and Freud’s theories of the origins of religion).

My father was very permissive, a good man, and my siblings and I never doubted his love for us, but he was also an alcoholic, which produced an enormous amount of insecurity and unpredictability in the family.

The suspicion of God against which I constantly struggle, despite all my orthodox answers for it is, I suspect, in part at least a reaction to that childhood uncertainty.

My wife, by contrast, grew up in a Brethren family which was very tight and restrictive (no radio, television or movies, and not even permitted to attend school socials) but also very stable and secure, and as the eldest child and only daughter she had a very close relationship with her father.

Her relationship with God, coincidentally or not, is instinctively trusting and optimistic (“and all shall be well, and all shall be well…..”) despite all the problems which her intelligence, shrewdness, pastoral experience and theological training throw up.

How, if at all, do you think that your relationship with your parents has determined your relationship with God?

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Zappa
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Not entirely sure - and it would probably change as life went on. My father was largely absent and very distant, largely devoid of outward displays of emotion - basically think Prince Phil without the smut. My God is somewhat different.

On the other hand any maternalization of Godspeak takes me into nightmare territory. My mother was (is, but she's harmless-ish now) volatile, cantankerous, tempestuous, manipulative and demeaning (though apart from that she's alright [Biased] ).

Now what there might be in my spirituality is the search for a compensation for the dysfunctionalities they represented.

Meanwhile I represent plenty of dysfunctionalities myself. My kids just don't bother with God.

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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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Yerevan
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Yes, massively. My father was completely absent from my life and my stepfather was violent. My mother was an unstable alcoholic, so the mother God thing really doesn't help either (I get incredibly angry when people waffle on about how mother God imagery is inherently 'nurturing' or whatever). My husband on the other hand had loving, albeit crazy (very very starchy calvinist) parents and is very trusting and accepting of God's love, despite having been raised with a theology which could be considered quite loveless and authoritarian.
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PerkyEars

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Hmm. Absent father. Stepfather who was basically loving but mentally ill and absent a lot of the time. Manipulative, narccissitc, ambivalent mother. Lots of upheavals - housemoves, divorce, changes of church.

It took a religious experience for me to believe in a loving, personal God. I still struggle with lack of trust. I struggle with beliving that God wants the best for me (as opposed to me being a pawn in his plan for the greater good, who might well be tossed aside at any time). I struggle with assurance of my salvation, and often imagine I will be one of those who Jesus says he didn't know. Realising that these distortions are rooted my relationship with my mother, and my experiences of family life has been a big help to me.

Getting rid of this kind of stuff from our spiritual lives is ongoing work. The other day I realised I believed that God didn't want to hear how I was feeling, and would punish and shame me if that's what I prayed about! Then I remembered the Psalms. [Smile]

M Scott Peck writes that people who think they've moved away from these distortions by getting rid of 'God' are in error - that everyone has a 'worldview' that grows out of their family life, whether they believe in God or not.

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Boogie

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I had a loving father, who I couldn't fault in any way. When he died four years ago (suddenly and at a good age - 86) I was devastated.

Yes, my views of God mirror my views of my earthly father pretty closely. And it's since Dad died that I have become confused and uncertain about God.

So I conform to your theory nicely.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Pine Marten
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I've often wondered about this too, as so many people seem to have problems.

My parents were ordinary working class Labour-voting Londoners, not churchgoers, who shared domestic jobs and childcare. My dad worked in a silversmiths and mum was an office cleaner. When she went out to work early mornings and evenings dad would do the cooking and cleaning. He wasn't well educated (he left school aged 12), he was a gentle, kindly man and I loved him greatly. My mum by contrast was an anxious, garrulous woman, who could quarrel with people very quickly.

I can easily relate to God as Father, and have never felt unloved by God, as some people have experienced. I don't feel judged by him either (although of course I judge myself constantly!). I feel more ambivalent about the Mother God thing because of my own mum, but even so can feel that Jesus's 'motherliness' is worth exploring - especially when reading some of St Anselm's prayers: '..you are gentle with us as a mother with her children..your warmth gives life to the dead, your touch makes sinners righteous..'

There were no severe problems like alcoholism etc with my parents, and I do have lasting memories of a kindly father who was patient and loving, who would, eg, take me to the park and play for hours, and who put up with a lot of nagging from my mother...

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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde

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tclune
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Well, I had a lot of trouble with my father because I was self-absorbed and narcissistic growing up. I didn't have a lot of conflict with God, but growing in the faith certainly required slaying a lot of the dragons within my soul. So I was the same flawed creature marring both relationships. But I don't think that's what the OP had in mind...

--Tom Clune

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LutheranChik
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My dad came from a dysfunctional family -- all God-fearing German farm folk on the outside, physical and emotional abuse on the inside. I think my paternal grandfather was crazy as a loon, frankly. So my father had those demons roiling around inside him, and he seemed to be constantly torn between not making his parents' mistakes and replicating them with me.

For instance, he never hit my mother, to my knowledge, and never physically abused me...but he had a violent, hair-trigger temper that was set off seemingly at random, so that every day when I got home from school I never knew if I'd be dealing with Good Dad or Bad Dad. (Interestingly, when DP, whose father was a violent alcoholic, and I compare family notes, our fathers had many of the same traits, although in my dad's case there was no substance abuse involved and he never took his anger to a physical level.)

He also lurched crazily between being supportive of me and having high expectations for me academically and otherwise and setting up barriers to keep me from advancing in my education. (I finally went to college, and mostly on his dime, too, after much Sturm und Drang.)

My mother was a very passive, beaten-down personality who had given up a good job in the city to marry Dad and help finance his purchasing the family farm. She never felt accepted by his family, and resented my father's bullying as well as HIS resentment of her education and her physical limitations. (She was not strong physically, had problems getting pregnant and wasn't able to work outside with the same energy and strength as other farm women in the neighborhood.) She spent a lot of her time weeping while my father was at work; or (inappropriately, IMHO) complaining to me, even at a young age, about my father and the in-laws.

How did this drama affect my feelings about God? I never had a very formed attitude about God being perpetually angry and ready to "smite" me, which I think was a function both of Lutheran theology at its best and some wishful thinking on my part that God's fatherhood made up for the deficiencies in my own family experience. I also thought of Jesus as the kindly older brother I never had; a champion. I remember going with my parents as a very young child to help clean the church building -- back in the say families took on this responsibility on a rotational basis -- and I felt very happy and at home there in God's house.

At the same time I was very resentful of my mother's anxious pressuring of me to read my children's Bible, to say nightly prayers, etc. She didn't mean to, but the way in which she framed these things always made me feel "bad" and in need of fixing. At the same time she criticized our church and the people in it all the time -- her family was Lutheran from home but never went to church; she was confirmed as an adult before she got married; when she was younger her parents had sent her down to the local Baptist church and youth group because it was the closer church in the neighborhood; she was either confused by or simply not on board with a lot of Lutheran theology and practice, and also frustrated with pastors' routine dismissal of her questions. I think that unhappiness also translated into my odd negative response to things like family Bible reading or prayers.

Thinking back, a significant vein of sadness ran through both parents; sadness expressed in very different ways, but sadness nonetheless. And maybe I internalized that to some extent, feeling that I was a contributor to that in some way.

I went through an intensely religious phase as a young teen; I think again because I felt that on some level what I experienced as God's "parenting" made up for emotionally messy and sometimes clueless human parenting.

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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
My father was very permissive, a good man, and my siblings and I never doubted his love for us, but he was also an alcoholic, which produced an enormous amount of insecurity and unpredictability in the family.

And every time you go visit God at His place, He breaks out the booze. Yes, I can see the similarities.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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leo
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My father was bipolar, absent and punitive when present.

Thus, I thought of god (lower case intended) as distant, punitive, unpredictable.

A spell of praying to God as 'mother' helped.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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The Weeder
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My family was somewhat dysfunctional- father an alchoholic, mother unable to relate to me because I was clever. She favoured my brother and sister, and was constantly trying to make sure they did not feel inadequate in relation to me.

I never saw my relationship to God as being affected in any way by my upbringing.

Church, however was a different matter. There I received the unconditional affirmation which was missing at home. I am grateful for the space and nurture I was found in the church community.

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Still missing the gator

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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I never noticed a metaphor of God within human relationship of any kind as a child. God was an amorphous spirit, very distant and far above the likes of me, neither male nor female. I suppose this affected my view and experience later, as of now included.

I always did wonder if Jesus had to get killed for God to actually notice him. For the rest of us, I wondered if this might even be enough to get attention. This discounts the miracles, which I have always suspected as a little too cute, even when young. As in - how is it that those guys get miracles and we don't? Thus, a distant god with limited regard for us an individuals and certainly nothing like the personal relationship ideas that I later learned were mainstream protestant.

[ 30. April 2012, 18:08: Message edited by: no_prophet ]

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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My mother was generally supportive and I never doubted her love, but she was also very prim, proper, puritianical and prudish. She was something of an anxiety neurotic and not quite spontaneously warm or affectionate to either me or my dad. My dad could be physically affectionate but also a bit unpredictable, slightly volatile at times, intimidating and not always very accessible due to work duties and years in graduate school while simultaneously serving as a career officer in the military. I was a fairly rebellious kid by my pre-teen years. My parents were fairly liberal minded (my dad more truly so than my my mother) and didn't try to stifle my free thought or faddish enthusiasms (often intellectual-literary ones). My approach to God has always been largely intellectual, thoughty more than experiential, questioning and often infused with a certain amount of heterodoxy; also fairly uncommitted to definite answers, and frequently shifting. I expect this reflects the foregoing factors of my upbringing. Also, I don't experience or perceive the Deity as a punitive figure. Although I got a certain amount of disapproval and punishment from my parents, I largely felt secure that they loved or were at least there for me. Finally, I need tastefulness and good aesthetic sense in worship, which I think reflects my parents' emphasis on good taste. They didn't do tacky.
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Chorister

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quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
Now what there might be in my spirituality is the search for a compensation for the dysfunctionalities they represented.

This. Humans are imperfect; God is always there, always loves, and always cares. Ubi caritas.

(English translation here)

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
It might just be pop psychology unsupported by any research, but there seems to be a widespread hunch that our childhood relationship with our father, in particular, has a lot to do with our perceptions of God.

Surely it will have something to do with it. I had a great father. Never once did I doubt my father's love for us. It can't imagine what it would be like to associate the word "father" with what some here do.

quote:
How, if at all, do you think that your relationship with your parents has determined your relationship with God?
I could always trust my father. He was good to us and loved us. When I would be sick my mother would tell me she wished she could be sick in my place so I wouldn't suffer.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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romanlion
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I believe in my parents, but I'm an atheist.

Grew up RC, so go figure.

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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Aravis
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My parents were (still are) very strongly Christian and I had a very church-based upbringing. I don't think my mother has really loved me since I was a toddler. My father possibly did, but he was a very disturbed and unstable person. Certainly by my early teens I was aware that I saw God as my real, loving father and the church as my real home.
Adults at church, and two of my aunts, filled the gaps to some extent, and since leaving home I've had a reasonably happy life.
I don't still depend on God as deeply as I used to; I suppose this could be because my parents are now very elderly and I wouldn't expect any support from them any more, but that seems a bit far-fetched.

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Belle Ringer
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I've heard the OP theory taught, it makes sense in that we have a father, we hear the word father, the same word invites us to carry the sense of personality/relationship (or lack of) from one application of the word to the other.

I think I've (mostly) recovered from the "confusion of identity" but it's taken years of work to see my earthly father and God as very different personalities.

The "God the Mother" was some help to me, but if anyone had suggested "God the favorite aunt" or "favorite teacher God" that might have been more help, faster help.

I've discovered a lot of us, male and female, were taught (by parents) "you are ugly and no one can ever love you" or "you can't do anything right, you'll never amount to anything," so any human relationships can have an unhealthy underlying assumption "s/he doesn't really love me, it's just pretend" that carries over to believing God "doesn't really love me, doesn't really want me."

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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How about God as a mother bear and lion(ness)?

quote:
Hosea 13:8
I will encounter them like a bear robbed of her cubs, And I will tear open their chests; There I will also devour them like a lioness, As a wild beast would tear them.

Or as just a mother?

quote:
Isaiah 66:13
As one whom his mother comforts,
so I will comfort you; you shall be comforted in Jerusalem.

It would take going back to university courses in classics and philosophical foundations to recall the detail, but our images of God as male are at least in in part on Sumerian metaphors (Abram came from there and we can anticipate continuous contact and cross-fertilization of such ideas in the time after), such as God being the male source of the Tigris and Euphrates, planting fertility into the female land. The image is profane in its specifics: ejaculating either into or the entire flow being ejaculate on to the land, thus providing fertility. I'm not sure I like the specifics of this very much if it is foundational to the male god image.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
It would take going back to university courses in classics and philosophical foundations to recall the detail, but our images of God as male are at least in in part on Sumerian metaphors (Abram came from there and we can anticipate continuous contact and cross-fertilization of such ideas in the time after), such as God being the male source of the Tigris and Euphrates, planting fertility into the female land. The image is profane in its specifics: ejaculating...

Huh? I was taught from real early God is neither male nor female, the "he" is just the English language convention when the female isn't specifically and solely correct. If Sumarians and God ejaculating have anything to do with a god, the Protestant Episcopal church of the upper mid-West in the 1950s had long rejected that influence!
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chive

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My experiences of both my parents was often extreme violence. And after every beating you had to kneel down and pray for forgiveness. And I did, I prayed so hard that whatever sin I had committed would be taken away and my parents would love me again. Which never worked as they often said they never loved us. At one point when I was very young my dad got a job with the church and I began to get confused and think it was God that was beating me. (Kids do get things muddled up).

It's taken decades to find some thing of God to hang on to who isn't capricious, violent and terrifying and that has come through finding friends, and especially a friend who is a priest who have taught me about what unconditional love really is. And experiencing the conditional love I feel for my nephew and niece.

Being a new RC the concept of the Saints has become of huge importance to me as a less terrifyig approach to life.

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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost

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chive

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Sorry that should read - the unconditional love I feel for my nephew and niece. [Hot and Hormonal]

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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost

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savedbyhim01
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My parents taught me the things of God regularly. They were good role models and stable influences. I never considered before that I view God as I view my dad, but their teaching definitely influenced my view of God.

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Matthew 28:18-20
My Inductive Bible Study Notes

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poileplume
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My wife has prefect parents and highly religious. BUT she is the only one of her eight siblings who is religious!

In case you are interested, my mother was an amusingly incompetent wife, housewife and mother. Unfortunately my father never quite got the joke.

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Please note I am quite severely dyslexic

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Kaplan Corday
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Your experience makes me feel that I have no right to complain of anything, chive.

Wishing you every blessing on your journey.

As Larkin said, "They fuck you up, your mum and dad. / They may not mean to, but they do".

The stories of fathers just in this thread are another reminder of how pastorally sensitive we have to be when presenting God as Father.

We used to know a woman who had been abused by her clergyman father, and therefore related to God as Holy Spirit (who seemed asexual) because she could not cope with the male gender specificity of Father or Son.

With Mothers' Day coming up, it is important to remember that there are abusive mothers, too, and some of their victims can be in our congregations.

(Although a digression from the topic, it is also worth remembering on Mothers' Day in churches, that there are more females than males in the Christian faith, and that therefore there are going to be some grieving would-be and probably-never-going-to-be mothers not coping well with our schmaltzy celebrations of motherhood).

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Chorister

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

With Mothers' Day coming up, it is important to remember that there are abusive mothers, too, and some of their victims can be in our congregations.

(Although a digression from the topic, it is also worth remembering on Mothers' Day in churches, that there are more females than males in the Christian faith, and that therefore there are going to be some grieving would-be and probably-never-going-to-be mothers not coping well with our schmaltzy celebrations of motherhood).

I wish more service planners and leaders would bear this in mind. Every year I'm aware of choir members who excuse themselves from this service because they cannot cope with the way it is handled - this number is probably multiplied by members of the congregation, too, who quietly don't turn up (although I'm not party to the details about them).

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Yerevan
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Mothering Sunday is one of the two Sundays a year where I always opt out of church, but I've ranted about that elsewhere on the Ship so will restrain myself [grin].

On a more cheerful note we became parents a few months ago and my husband is absolutely fantastic with our son. Seeing them together is giving me a new understanding of the fatherhood of God

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Nunc Dimittis
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My father was dogmatic, spiritually abusive, domineering and had a number of catchword phrases like: "Faith is an intellectual thing, it's got nothing to do with emotions," and "The Bible is God's Law-Word." He is ultra Calvinist and has great sympathy with the Reconstructionists. As a child we would come home from church, have lunch, and then sit down to a session in which he would read 2-3 chapters from Deuteronomy or Leviticus, followed by Calvin's commentary on the same, followed by a long excerpt from whichever Reconstructionist fellow he was reading at the time. We were not allowed to make noise, and Percy (a great big belt with a huge buckle, left over from the 1970s) sat at my dad's right hand, wrapped up around its buckle, with its tongue pointing down the table.

My mum grew up in a Brethren home, and has always had a warm and vital relationship with God (my grandfather was a loving character, and this is reflected in my mum's picture of God). She has her own manipulative techniques and deficiencies, but I give thanks that some of the warmth of my mother's faith reflected onto me.

As a child I yearned for a God who loved me, whom I could feel close to. I read the bible, I even tried techniques like praying like the patriarchs (thinking that might get God's attention). But God was forever shut up, angry, behind the brass doors of heaven. And Jesus was a stern character, whose only purpose was to be killed as a propitiation - like all those lambs of old. I struggled with understanding how that could be "love", because I didn't feel Jesus loved me, let alone that nasty Father figure who seemed to hate humanity, and was displeased with me. I used to cry when my mum sang "Jesus loves me this I know" through the wall to try to get us to sleep. (I think it was more about her comforting herself...)

Even though as a late teen I had a conversion experience and felt loved by Jesus, and after completing a BTh, being ordained, and living daily the call to love and serve others - I still struggle with any sense of being loved by God, or that God is close, breathing in me, loving through and through. Sometimes I glimpse it. Sometimes fleetingly the Spirit will hover gently for a moment - and it is gone.

I do find a sense of real connection in praying the daily office, and the words of the psalms are often my words, rich and pregnant. For a while I found thinking of God as mother helpful. The rosary helps too (Mary's maternal presence). Learning about the social doctrine of the Trinity helped to free me from the old monarchical view of the distant Father, so I try to hold onto the idea that God is a communion, not a monad. Not praying is lethal.

But you know, rarely do I sense Jesus' smile in my prayers. And God as Father does nothing at all for me - and I resent one of my parishioners who always begins her prayers with "Oh God our Father" and proceeds always to correct my inclusive language for God from "Godself" to "Himself".

I sometimes find that the best way to experience God's love is to a) live like it's true and b) in the process of mirroring it to others, sometimes a reflection falls back on me.

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Well, I had a lot of trouble with my father because I was self-absorbed and narcissistic growing up

"When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years."

My father was pretty disciplinarian but totally fair and he loved us. The problems I had with him when I was younger reflected a racial inferiority complex I'd picked up from my treatment outside the home.

Put simply, it was his fault that I was black and I was angry with him for that.

However I don't recall having been angry with God for any sustained period of time. Well, not for any very sustained period of time.

[ 01. May 2012, 14:16: Message edited by: mdijon ]

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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WhateverTheySay
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I never had a good relationship with my parents. Dad is controlling and never respected my right to have my own opinions or even be myself. Mum is distant and stood back and did nothing. I got out when I could and haven't looked back since. No way will I ever return.

So pretty much nothing in common with my relationship with God. That, although often rocky, has always been a good thing in my life.

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I'm not lost, I just don't know where I am going

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The Scrumpmeister
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By the theory in the OP, I should be an atheist.

Still, reading others' replies has proved interesting.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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The5thMary
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quote:
Originally posted by chive:
My experiences of both my parents was often extreme violence. And after every beating you had to kneel down and pray for forgiveness. And I did, I prayed so hard that whatever sin I had committed would be taken away and my parents would love me again. Which never worked as they often said they never loved us. At one point when I was very young my dad got a job with the church and I began to get confused and think it was God that was beating me. (Kids do get things muddled up).

It's taken decades to find some thing of God to hang on to who isn't capricious, violent and terrifying and that has come through finding friends, and especially a friend who is a priest who have taught me about what unconditional love really is. And experiencing the conditional love I feel for my nephew and niece.

Being a new RC the concept of the Saints has become of huge importance to me as a less terrifyig approach to life.

Dear God, how awful for you! And here I was thinking that my alcoholic and depressed parents were cruel to my sisters and I! No, compared to your parents, mine were angels. I'm so sorry that you experienced such nastiness at so early an age.

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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.

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The5thMary
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My mother was a strict Catholic and my father was a non-practicing Protestant but they both drank like fish, smoked like chimneys and had severe depression and other problems. My memories of my dad are not generally good. He was drunk a LOT and when he drank he yelled stuff that didn't make any sense. He once told one of my sisters,"Stop making that noise! You're driving me crazy! You weren't supposed to be born, anyway!". What a lovely thing to say to a young child. My mother was my idol even though she was drunk a lot too. But she could be so sweet and tender and I just wanted to make her happy, thinking that if she was happy she wouldn't drink.

I never had the notion that God was out to get me, even though the nuns were always telling us that we, personally had driven the spikes into Jesus' hands and feet--(this was told to six and seven year old children!). I always felt that God was nearby and I could talk to Him about anything.

When I came out of the closet at seventeen, I wasn't sure what I thought of God, believing the lie about homosexuality being a sin. For years I turned my back on a God that I felt was a insecure bully and a MALE, to boot!

Now I feel God as both a male and a female presence and Jesus as an older brother. God is sometimes a Mother but, dare I voice this and open myself for ridicule, also a Lover. THE Lover of my soul. And as my Lover, She is always a She.

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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.

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Chorister

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I've never had a problem with God, but have a huge problem with Jesus (not the man, not the Christ, but the risen, ascended, yet oh so close, pal Jesus that the Evangelicals worship). Don't think that's anything to do with my parents though, but not quite sure what it's to do with. Perhaps one day I'll puzzle it out.

God is an all-round good sort of guy, who understands. What you'd wish an ideal parent to be, perhaps? And maybe the Jesus that I don't get on with doesn't actually exist. That might explain why I don't get on with him.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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HughWillRidmee
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Research might be interesting. From replies so far it seems a bit like cold reading - only works if you discount all the misses.

I had an excellent relationship with my "anglican minister" father. Based on this sample of one it's possible to argue that atheism is due to not needing to have a comforting, imaginary surrogate dad, therefore if you want your children to grow up needing a god or gods treat them badly.

Actually......???

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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)

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Kaplan Corday
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Another factor which I forgot to mention in the OP is that my parents were quite physically demonstrative with each other and with we kids.

My wife, on the other hand, says that she never ever saw her parents display any overt affection in front of her or her siblings, though they treated each other and their kids with consideration and courtesy.

One might have expected that difference to have produced a warmer attitude toward God in me than in my wife, but that's not how it worked out.

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Boogie

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Would you call God physically demonstrative though?

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Kaplan Corday
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Well, he did invent sex...
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Kaplan Corday
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Well, he did invent sex...
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comet

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I never really thought of it before but I think there is a connection between my relationship with my father and my relationship with God. huh.

my father was always away - left when I was little and I only saw him every few years. He's a good man, despite not being present. but he's very loving and giving, loves to share his interests, and he's gregarious as hell. Very demonstrative with affection when the rare opportunity arrises. generally, kind of a shitty husband and a totally absent father; but, while he's way over there, he's pretty cool. He communicates in letters and writing books and doing radio shows and being this big impressive semi-celebrity; but what he communicates is good stuff.

which is a lot how I view God - does good and says useful things and professes love and is probably even genuinely proud of me, but isn't exactly hands-on in my day to day, mundane life.

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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions

"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin

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SusanDoris

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My siblings and I never had cause to doubt the deep love and affection our parents had for each other and for us. Although I knew that some children had unloving homes, if such things were around us, we certainly nevre saw, as my parents were in fact over-protective. Years later, an aunt said that it was like visiting a moated castle when visiting our house. From reading some of the above painful stories, I realise we were shielded from things that were not 'right'. My father had had a difficult childhood and my mother had seen a younger sister always the favourite and they wanted to protect us from that. I was born in 1936 so much of my childhood was war time. I used to have discussions with my father about God's place in the war, but that always led to God must know what He's doing. (there was always a capital H.)We said our prayers - God bless family, thanks for ...' but that was an unquestioned part of the daily routine. We were, if I remember correctly, allowed to miss this ritual if we wer ill! [Smile]

The physical and mental abuse in my life was from the man I married, and I quickly realised the impotence of God, but still believed that He was there somewhere. Never having had a relationship with this god, my belief just faded away and I've been an atheist for a long time now.

I think I can appreciate why people's belief, prayers, etc have provided the support that those with difficult and uncaring parents needed. When I needed it, I realised immediately it wasn't there and knew that I had to work things out for myself. to my mind, all the working through by those who have had the thought of god to help them has, in fact, been done by their own inner strength, thoughts and intelligence. They have attributed the strength they had to God instead of to themselves.

Anyway, I would just like to say how much my deep respect goes to those who have worked their way through things.

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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by comet:
which is a lot how I view God - does good and says useful things and professes love and is probably even genuinely proud of me, but isn't exactly hands-on in my day to day, mundane life.

You've made me realise that's how I see God as well. I wouldn't have spontaneously admitted it, but now you have I can identify with it.

Although in my case that's nothing like my earthly father.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
which is a lot how I view God - does good and says useful things and professes love and is probably even genuinely proud of me, but isn't exactly hands-on in my day to day, mundane life.

You've made me realise that's how I see God as well...

Although in my case that's nothing like my earthly father.

Well, I was specifically taught that God loves us and we are supposed to pray to God but don't go expecting any response. In that sense I equated God with the elderly aunts (aunts of my parents) who lived 1000 miles away, I was told they loved me, I was supposed to send them a Christmas card but don't expect a card in return. (It didn't make sense to me that someone I never met and who never attempted any communication with me loved me, and I was supposed to reach out to them in response to their love that didn't ever reach out to me! But that's what the parents insisted about both the aunts and God.)

Obviously who your parents are/were is not the only influence! There's also what we are taught about God, what (intended or unintended) conclusions we draw from the teachings, what we see in TV & movies, our own experiences (including answered or unanswered prayer), etc.

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Bean Sidhe
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My parents were good, well-meaning people who loved their children but were too messed up to express it in any way that meant much. Which had its effect on my siblings and me. And of course my parents had their own histories to cope with. If you don't know it, read Philip Larkin, 'They fuck you up, your mum and dad'. Heaven knows how my own children will turn out. At the moment they're in a brash, confident early twenties phase, full of optimism. So was I at that age.

How do I see God? Mostly distant, inscrutable. Then sometimes very close, until I feel abandoned again. When I'll think, is it me?

Yep, it figures.

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Cottontail

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My father was a darling, volatile, hugely affectionate man, who loved us to pieces but dealt very badly with anything he perceived as rejection - which included even very mild teenage attempts at independence. Perceived slights could result in days of sulks which only ever ended when we apologised, which we did even when we didn't think we had done anything wrong because the sulks were unbearable. I grew up in a very secure home, knowing for sure I was loved, but increasingly feeling that love as stifling. But then, part of the growing up process was seeing him as a human being with his own baggage and faults, and loving him anyway.

I've tried equating that with my relationship with God, and it has been an interesting exercise. Yes, the security is there, and the certainty of being loved. And I do have a very tactile image of God, often envisioning myself being hugged or cradled or carried. But I don't perceive God as in anyway volatile or inclined to throw tantrums like my father did: if anything, God is a steady and calm presence to me, a being around whom I most emphatically do not have to tread on eggshells. And I rage at God in a way I would never have dared speak to my father.

Perhaps the most significant difference is that, in my theology and my preaching, I return again and again to the theme of freedom. God's love is not a stifling love like my father's could be, but a love that allows me to be most truly myself.

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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."

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quetzalcoatl
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it's a very interesting comparison. I suppose it's a bit unpredictable, since one person could imagine a deity like one parent, whereas someone else could react the other way, and choose a deity who is quite different.

I can see the themes of intimacy and separation, which were big in my childhood, with a father who was distant, and a mother who was often too close.

And I have seen God like this, as either right inside my bowels, metaphorically, or far far away. So maybe there is a connection. Something which actually looks through my eyes from the inside, and then is gone.

The other issue is that my parents were atheists, so maybe I am reacting to that, seeking out the dark secrets which they denied.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Chorister

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This thread is very interesting, because I remember - having observed many different types of churches - saying that many people's views of God seemed to be awfully similar to the sort of Vicar they had.

Perhaps there is more to people calling their Vicar 'Father' than meets the eye....

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
This thread is very interesting, because I remember - having observed many different types of churches - saying that many people's views of God seemed to be awfully similar to the sort of Vicar they had.

Perhaps there is more to people calling their Vicar 'Father' than meets the eye....

My 'Vicar' is a girl.

[Smile]

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Garden. Room. Walk

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HughWillRidmee
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
This thread is very interesting, because I remember - having observed many different types of churches - saying that many people's views of God seemed to be awfully similar to the sort of Vicar they had.

Perhaps there is more to people calling their Vicar 'Father' than meets the eye....

My 'Vicar' is a girl.

[Smile]

My Father was my Vicar and he "married" my mother twice.

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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
It might just be pop psychology unsupported by any research, but there seems to be a widespread hunch that our childhood relationship with our father, in particular, has a lot to do with our perceptions of God.


There are a few academic articles that explore the connection between fathers and faith transmission, so I don't think the topic belongs exclusively to the field of pop psychology. However, psychology is a contentious field, apparently, and theories often seem to come and go.

In any case, the father's influence must surely be set alongside other factors (not least, what kind of religion we're talking about.

Since I like making lists, here are a few sources on this subject:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0SOR/is_3_67/ai_n20510721/?tag=content;col1

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14213234

http://www.jstor.org/stable/353754

http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2307/353355

A lot of Christian websites have made reference to this research on religious fathers in Switzerland, but it's not so easy to find more objective responses to it:

"The Demographic Characteristics of the Linguistic and Religious Groups in Switzerland" by Werner Haug and Phillipe Warner of the Federal Statistical Office, Neuchatel. The study appears in Volume 2 of Population Studies No. 31, a book titled The Demographic Characteristics of National Minorities in Certain European States, edited by Werner Haug and others, published by the Council of Europe Directorate General III, Social Cohesion, Strasbourg, January 2000.)

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