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» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » Purgatory: The resurrection and the Archbishop (Page 1)

 
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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: The resurrection and the Archbishop
Mudfrog
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Great news - not just that Christ is risen either!

This from today's news:

Dr Williams, who will resign as Archbishop of Canterbury at the end of the year to take up a post at Cambridge University, will also tell followers that the ultimate test of the Christian religion is not whether it is useful, beneficial or helpful to the human race but whether or not its central claim - the resurrection of Jesus Christ - actually happened.
"Easter makes a claim not just about a potentially illuminating set of human activities but about an event in history and its relation to the action of God," he said.
"Very simply, in the words of this morning's reading from the Acts of the Apostles, we are told that 'God raised Jesus to life'."
He will also add that any understanding of the significance of the resurrection which fell short of this truth would be to misunderstand it.
Dr Williams will say: "We are not told that Jesus 'survived death'; we are not told that the story of the empty tomb is a beautiful imaginative creation that offers inspiration to all sorts of people; we are not told that the message of Jesus lives on. We are told that God did something."

[ 20. September 2012, 13:25: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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balaam

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Great one.

I'm not one of those Anglicans who agrees 100% with Dr. Williams, but he's spot on with this one.

Go Rowan, Go! [Yipee]

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justlooking
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What Balaam said.
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Beeswax Altar
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Shame it has come to this. An Archbishop of Canterbury makes headlines on Easter by claiming God actually raised Jesus from the dead. Unfortunately, in this day and age, any Anglican archbishop outside the Global South making such a bold claim really is newsworthy. Our Presiding Bishop chooses to talk about "personal resurrections." Perhaps, she can take Rosie O'Donnel's place on OWN.

[ 08. April 2012, 09:22: Message edited by: Beeswax Altar ]

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Evensong
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The man must be mad.

Got a link Muddy?

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SusanDoris

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Having clicked on, and read, the posts in this thread so far, I can't go back a minute or so and not have read them!!!
I would so much like to have a face-to-face discussion with him and get him to rationalise logically what he says.
On the other hand, I think he has been a good AofC and hope that a moderate type takes his place.

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Paul.
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Here - two paragraphs above 'Militant Secularisation'.

Meanwhile the pope tells us we're 'groping in the darkness'

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SusanDoris

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quote:
Originally posted by wilson:
Here - two paragraphs above 'Militant Secularisation'.

Meanwhile the pope tells us we're 'groping in the darkness'

Thank you for the link. I have listened ( I use a screen reader) and really, I shake my head in disbelief when, in defiance of all the scientific knowledge available, it can still be believed that anything like a resurrection could have occurred. To teach about beliefs and their history is essential, but to say something is true, and happened via the auspices of 'god', all without evidence, should just not happen these days.

Of course these beliefs will be a part of human life and that is an absolute right I'd march to defend, but important religious leaders, educationalists, etc should realise that nowadays proofs and evidence are required for things to be established as scientific theory, i.e. until better evidence comes along, in which case the theory will be updated.

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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

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Dave Marshall

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This is only a reflection of the theological arrogance Rowan has shown as Archbishop. Rather than preach about what can be known and celebrated in the Christian tradition - the inspirational value of the Jesus story and its enduring effect on history - he resorts to making religious capital out of a populist appeal to a rump of Christian believers who remain literally faithful to the current institutional orthodoxy.

With his intellectual capacity to reconcile this kind of belief with rational thought, Rowan may be oblivious to the negative consequences such cop-outs have for the broader, long-term credibility of Christian faith. Not really much of an excuse, though, given his position and the opportunities and responsibilities that go with that.

[ 08. April 2012, 10:56: Message edited by: Dave Marshall ]

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Anglican_Brat
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The point of the Resurrection is political-theological which I think points to it as essential for Christian faith.

Resurrection validates the message of Jesus completely. The Christian claim is that the forces of oppression and injustice, the forces of death and imperialism do not have the final say. In the Resurrection:

Love is stronger than hate.
Peace is stronger than war.
Justice is stronger than oppression
Jesus is stronger than Caesar.

So I think that it is essential that Christians hold to the Resurrection actually occurred. The Resurrection is Christian hope, hope for a better world, hope for a world where love and justice reigns, hope for a world where the powers of death and evil no longer hold sway. In Jesus's sharing of the divine life of God, so the world, humanity, will share in that life.

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leo
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He also said that RE should not be marinalised in secondary schools. Trouble is, Gove never does a u turn.

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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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jordan32404
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Shame it has come to this. An Archbishop of Canterbury makes headlines on Easter by claiming God actually raised Jesus from the dead. Unfortunately, in this day and age, any Anglican archbishop outside the Global South making such a bold claim really is newsworthy. Our Presiding Bishop chooses to talk about "personal resurrections." Perhaps, she can take Rosie O'Donnel's place on OWN.

I agree, while I don't hate the Presiding Bishop, as some conservatives do, her Easter message this year was disappointing. Rather more of an equinox message.
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AberVicar
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Marshall:
This is only a reflection of the theological arrogance Rowan has shown as Archbishop. Rather than preach about what can be known and celebrated in the Christian tradition - the inspirational value of the Jesus story and its enduring effect on history - he resorts to making religious capital out of a populist appeal to a rump of Christian believers who remain literally faithful to the current institutional orthodoxy.

With his intellectual capacity to reconcile this kind of belief with rational thought, Rowan may be oblivious to the negative consequences such cop-outs have for the broader, long-term credibility of Christian faith. Not really much of an excuse, though, given his position and the opportunities and responsibilities that go with that.

I am puzzled why you should attack Rowan for theological arrogance when he is representing the defining point of what it means to be a Christian. It would help if you were not speaking from a viewpoint that has the arrogance to dismiss as irrelevant and damaging anything in the Church that does not conform to your own approach.

As to SD's comment on scientific theory, I thought we'd got beyond the fascism of the scientists to understand that there are very many more forms of knowledge than science can understand. Scientific theory is useful in its own field. Don't try and make all life conform to it - it don't work, any more than conforming the realm of science to ancient mythological beliefs can work.

By all means aspire to a secular type of humanism that does not comprehend resurrection, but don't call it Christianity, because that it ain't.

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Anselmina
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Good post, AberVicar.
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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by AberVicar:
I am puzzled why you should attack Rowan for theological arrogance when he is representing the defining point of what it means to be a Christian. It would help if you were not speaking from a viewpoint that has the arrogance to dismiss as irrelevant and damaging anything in the Church that does not conform to your own approach.

Well......traditionally it has been the other way around.

Don't believe in the resurrection? You're not a Christian!

Can't really blame Dave for a bit of reciprocation.

quote:
Originally posted by AberVicar:


By all means aspire to a secular type of humanism that does not comprehend resurrection, but don't call it Christianity, because that it ain't.

I thought it was the Nicene Creed that told God who was in and who was out. Now it's the resurrection is it?

Personally, I believe Christ was raised from the dead.

As for the Archbishop saying so? No big deal. His right.

Tell others they are not if they don't believe in a physical resurrection?

*ppffft*.

It's weaker, but it's still Christian.

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
To teach about beliefs and their history is essential, but to say something is true, and happened via the auspices of 'god', all without evidence, should just not happen these days.

I agree.

We should completely scrap theoretical physics as the best explanation of the universe.

It is a matter of faith after all. No evidence.

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Dave Marshall

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quote:
Originally posted by AberVicar:
the defining point of what it means to be a Christian.

That's the official line. It would make sense that you as a Church office-holder also believe it. It doesn't mean that, rather than open up and further the Christian tradition, the Resurrection as historical fact reinforces the impression that at best Christianity is now a massive irrelevance, and more likely a religion that cannot be trusted. If it can't be realistic about it's own stories and history, why should whatever else it says about the world be worth considering?
quote:
It would help if you were not speaking from a viewpoint that has the arrogance to dismiss as irrelevant and damaging anything in the Church that does not conform to your own approach.
We all stand somewhere. I've probably posted enough about the convincing reasons there are for dismissing factual resurrection claims. I'm only hearing from Rowan Williams (and John Sentamu) more tired assertions that in effect Father Church knows best.

However they and the rest of the hierarchy dress it up, it's dragging the potential that remains within the Church into bin bags ready for disposal in the landfill of history. I think we've discovered before that you don't comprehend the idea of an alternative to traditional orthodoxy that is at least as authentically Christian. That doesn't mean such alternatives don't exist.

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Mudfrog
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if Jesus didn't stand up and leave behind an empty tomb then there is no resurrection.

The resurrection did not happen to the disciples, it happened to Jesus!

I think liberalism, which has done so much to destroy the church, is now being slowly laid to rest - for such things there will be no resurrection.

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AberVicar
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Marshall:
[QBHowever they and the rest of the hierarchy dress it up, it's dragging the potential that remains within the Church into bin bags ready for disposal in the landfill of history. I think we've discovered before that you don't comprehend the idea of an alternative to traditional orthodoxy that is at least as authentically Christian. That doesn't mean such alternatives don't exist. [/QB]

And you still have the nerve to call Rowan arrogant? [Killing me]

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AberVicar
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I thought it was the Nicene Creed that told God who was in and who was out. Now it's the resurrection is it?

Both times I recited the Nicene Creed this morning it included the words The third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures Which version are you using?

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Dave Marshall

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quote:
Originally posted by AberVicar:
And you still have the nerve to call Rowan arrogant? [Killing me]

[Smile] Surely you're not claiming that your opinion about the limits of authentic Christianity is the only valid one? Kettles, black, etc?

[ 08. April 2012, 14:01: Message edited by: Dave Marshall ]

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Mudfrog
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It seems to me that the ones who want to 'limit' Christianity are those who want to mythologise, spiritualise, internalise, subjectify and deny that the tomb was empty and Jesus rose bodily from the dead.

Surely to belief and witness to this, is to acknowledge there are no limits to the power of God or to the gospel.

The empty tomb places no limits on our understanding, nor upon our integrity as rational people.

From this morning's readings, John saw (the empty linen strips) and believed even though he did not yet fully understand.

To settle for a belief in that which we can understand or explain is, IMHO, to limit the power of faith.

Sometimes things need to be believed in order to be seen.

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G.K. Chesterton

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Zach82
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I think I agree with you, Mudfrog. The resurrection is about the power of the grace of God. It has something to do with the here and how because it is about the body. It's about the meat as much as the soul. Exiling the meaning of the resurrection to feeling, spirit, or meaning is just a way of making the doctrine safe by making it meaningless.

Zach

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Dave Marshall

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Surely to belief and witness to this, is to acknowledge there are no limits to the power of God or to the gospel. The empty tomb places no limits on our understanding, nor upon our integrity as rational people..

That's exactly the problem. As historical fact it's cloud cuckoo land. Such claims may inspire hope in those who believe it - until they find they no longer do.
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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Marshall:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Surely to belief and witness to this, is to acknowledge there are no limits to the power of God or to the gospel. The empty tomb places no limits on our understanding, nor upon our integrity as rational people..

That's exactly the problem. As historical fact it's cloud cuckoo land. Such claims may inspire hope in those who believe it - until they find they no longer do.
So you want to remove anything from the whole Bible that cannot be replicated in your living room?

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by jordan32404:While I don't hate the Presiding Bishop, as some conservatives do, her Easter message this year was disappointing. Rather more of an equinox message.
So which do we prefer? An Archbishop who unequivocally declares the historic Christian message still believed - yes, literally - by many millions of faithful people, ora so-called "Easter" message which never once mentions Jesus?

Preach it, Rowan!

[ 08. April 2012, 14:47: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Anselmina
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Marshall:
As historical fact it's cloud cuckoo land.

As historical fact - it's not been scientifically proven. Which is something else altogether. 'Unproven in empirical terms' and 'cloud cuckoo land' are not actually the same thing. Or has scientific rigour taken a dive since I failed my 'O' Level physics? (Well, an 'E' grade anyway [Frown] .)
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IngoB

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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Shame it has come to this. An Archbishop of Canterbury makes headlines on Easter by claiming God actually raised Jesus from the dead.

Indeed, bad news that this is great news.

quote:
Originally posted by Susan Doris:
I shake my head in disbelief when, in defiance of all the scientific knowledge available, it can still be believed that anything like a resurrection could have occurred.

And I shake my head in disbelief that you believe this is even remotely a relevant comment. The resurrection is a miracle, OK? It was perceived as a miracle back in antiquity as well. "Modern science" is not needed at all, not in the slightest. Everybody knows, and everybody has always known, that people do not come back from being dead. That's the very point.

quote:
Originally posted by Susan Doris:
Of course these beliefs will be a part of human life and that is an absolute right I'd march to defend, but important religious leaders, educationalists, etc should realise that nowadays proofs and evidence are required for things to be established as scientific theory, i.e. until better evidence comes along, in which case the theory will be updated.

Nobody is establishing a "scientific theory" here. The resurrection of Jesus is not a "scientific" claim. At least not by your narrow understanding of "science". It is a historical claim, among other things, and in the way that history is a science (which is quite different from the way in which for example physics is a science), it is a well supported claim. No, really, it is at least as well supported as Caesar crossing the Rubicon, which you probably believe to have happened.

The problem with the resurrection is not at all that the historical sources and so on make it unlikely. The problem is that it is inherently unlikely, which as mentioned is the very point of a miracle, and hence it follows that no matter how good the historical record, a "proof" cannot happen. And again, that too is fine, since ultimately you are asked to believe in the resurrection of Christ, not to deduce it.

Anyway, nothing the (still) ABC said there was in the least intellectually problematic. And you (as atheist) weren't even the target of all this. For the sake of this particular discussion, you are an outsider. This was firmly targeted at people like Dave Marshall.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Dave Marshall

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
So you want to remove anything from the whole Bible that cannot be replicated in your living room?

Who said anything about changing the Bible? It's how we use it that's different.
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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Marshall:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
So you want to remove anything from the whole Bible that cannot be replicated in your living room?

Who said anything about changing the Bible? It's how we use it that's different.
Then you are less than honest that Richard Dawkins and his ilk. He knows what the Bible teaches and chooses not to believe it. You, on the other hand, want to make the bible read in a very different way to its original intent.

There is no one in the first century who would ever have believed that the resurrection of Christ meant anything different than an empty tomb and a man who was once dead but now bodily raised.

The NT knows nothing of spiritual resurrection.
Your view is impotent and unproven.

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Mudfrog
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What is it with you unbelieving lot? Do you all live in Corinth?

You are above all men to be pitied.

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Dave Marshall

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Hmm. The pots and kettles seem to be having a field day.
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sebby
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Never mind all the dirty pots and pans rattling around in the dishwasher, did you see the Archbishop's chasable?

(Perhaps this belongs in Ecclesiantics)

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AberVicar
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Marshall:
Hmm. The pots and kettles seem to be having a field day.

Your usual reasoned response to anyone who ascribes substance to Christian faith... [Devil]

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SusanDoris

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
To teach about beliefs and their history is essential, but to say something is true, and happened via the auspices of 'god', all without evidence, should just not happen these days.

I agree.

We should completely scrap theoretical physics as the best explanation of the universe.

Pleas correct me if I have mis-read your post, but it looks as if you are treating Physics with scorn here, and I cannot quote atual data because I'm not remotely a hysicist, but I've just finished listening to 'Why E=Mcsquared and why it matters' by Prof Brian Cox and his colleague. Would you dismiss all of that? I also read widely on JREF.

quote:
It is a matter of faith after all. No evidence.
I will go to that link in a minute but did you know that the title of the 'God particle' book was intended to say 'goddamn particle' but the publishers felt it would be more likely to do well with the 'damn' removed!

IngoB
quote:
Anyway, nothing the (still) ABC said there was in the least intellectually problematic. And you (as atheist) weren't even the target of all this. For the sake of this particular discussion, you are an outsider.
Yes, I know! [Big Grin] But I love reading and joining in discussions whether I am or not!

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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Raptor Eye
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What RW said is spot on imv. Christ is risen. Without a living Christ, there'd be no cornerstone and the building that is the Christian Church would collapse. We don't worship a man who used to be, we worship the one God who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

ISTM however that the resurrection of Jesus may be taken as a physical and a spiritual event. We don't have to choose between them do we?

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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
Anglican_Brat
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Marshall:
quote:
Originally posted by AberVicar:
[qb] the defining point of what it means to be a Christian.

That's the official line. It would make sense that you as a Church office-holder also believe it. It doesn't mean that, rather than open up and further the Christian tradition, the Resurrection as historical fact reinforces the impression that at best Christianity is now a massive irrelevance, and more likely a religion that cannot be trusted. If it can't be realistic about it's own stories and history, why should whatever else it says about the world be worth considering?
Which is basically what Christianity was during the first 300 years of its existence. There are some who would argue that the Church shines as servant of the world precisely when it is irrelevant to contemporary society.

I think we sometimes think people join or not join the church because of whether or not they intellectually assent to doctrine. However, people might be less obsessed with the details of doctrine than we think. People join the Church when Christians live their faith in love and service to others. People conversely leave the Church when Christians don't practice what they preach.

The Resurrection might not be empirically provable. But then again an elderly man who says his elderly wife is "the most beautiful woman in the world", isn't exactly empirical either. But that doesn't make what the elderly man says about his wife untrue.

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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Shame it has come to this. An Archbishop of Canterbury makes headlines on Easter by claiming God actually raised Jesus from the dead. Unfortunately, in this day and age, any Anglican archbishop outside the Global South making such a bold claim really is newsworthy. Our Presiding Bishop chooses to talk about "personal resurrections." Perhaps, she can take Rosie O'Donnel's place on OWN.

Oh, snap!

I have been meditating on sermon content for Holy Week and Easter all week now, and I've come to the conclusion that, yes, I need to hear that Passion Gospel read and preached on each year; and yes, I need to hear a simple "Christ is risen!" sermon each year.

Too often, it seems that pastors take the "You already know this stuff, how can I keep it interesting?" route, but I'm afraid we sheep just need to hear the same thing over and over again! I can't blame them for trying to keep life interesting, but we are stubborn sheep!

Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
... In the Resurrection:

Love is stronger than hate.
Peace is stronger than war.
Justice is stronger than oppression
Jesus is stronger than Caesar. ...

I happily believe all of that yet I don't need to believe in the Resurrection. FWIW. OliviaG
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Shame it has come to this. An Archbishop of Canterbury makes headlines on Easter by claiming God actually raised Jesus from the dead.

Indeed, bad news that this is great news.


Perhaps this is reassuring then. The 'headlines' here appear to include microchipping dogs in Ulster and Liam Neeson being inspired to act by Revd Iain Paisley. I've noticed the reference, in the smaller items, to the Archbishop's comments on RE. Though maybe if I do a search I'll find this shocking 'headline' of an Archbishop of Canterbury astounding the media with his belief in the Risen Christ.

I think if you take the trouble to go to the BBC international news, there's also something about the Pope's Easter Address.

Mind you, I think there is something rather predictably obvious, that on one of the most overtly religious days of the year the media reports on what the main Church leaders have to say about their religion. Not so much as 'wow, isn't it amazing the liberal CofE believes in its Saviour' - more 'oh yeah, Easter again, suppose we better run off the Lambeth press release, as usual.'

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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
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To be fair to Beeswax and IngoB, I meant to add that if by 'headlines', Beeswax meant the response here on the Ship of Fools, that's another issue. Though hardly headlines to anyone who's fairly knowledgeable of the ministry of the Archbishop, I would've thought?

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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

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Dal Segno

al Fine
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quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Of course these beliefs will be a part of human life and that is an absolute right I'd march to defend, but important religious leaders, educationalists, etc should realise that nowadays proofs and evidence are required for things to be established as scientific theory, i.e. until better evidence comes along, in which case the theory will be updated.

As someone who works with researchers in both the sciences and the humanities, I have to point out that there's a vast difference between scientific proof and historical proof. Scientific proof requires an experimental method that allows for repeatability and measurement. Historical proof is a different beast. You cannot repeat any historical event; you certainly cannot repeat a one-off event like the execution and burial of one particular person. So, you need to look at the documentary evidence, weigh the probabilities, and produce a reasoned argument for what is likely to have actually happened.

Whatever else you think, something happened to turn a bunch of demoralised, cowardly, and leader-less Jesus-followers into the dynamic, evangelistic proto-church.

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Yet ever and anon a trumpet sounds

Posts: 1200 | From: Pacific's triple star | Registered: Mar 2009  |  IP: Logged
Dave Marshall

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
People join the Church when Christians live their faith in love and service to others. People conversely leave the Church when Christians don't practice what they preach.

Yes. It's the Christian core values at work. They will if visible naturally draw in others who share those values. They may in time overcome the opposite effect of an alien culture of wierd beliefs and practices. That doesn't mean the beliefs and practices become any less wierd or alienating, just that people can adjust if the incentive - the sense of belonging - is and remains strong enough.
quote:
The Resurrection might not be empirically provable. But then again an elderly man who says his elderly wife is "the most beautiful woman in the world", isn't exactly empirical either. But that doesn't make what the elderly man says about his wife untrue.
Of course not - to the elderly man. The reality of beauty is in the mind of the person who recognises it. It's not a historical fact. And some people make a case for the reality of the Resurrection in an analogous (eg. spiritual) non-historical sense. Recognising the whole Jesus narrative as story opens all that up. Along the way it relegates to academic interest only the claims and counter claims about the facts behind the 2000 year old historical record.
Posts: 4763 | From: Derbyshire Dales | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Dave Marshall

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quote:
Originally posted by Dal Segno:
Whatever else you think, something happened to turn a bunch of demoralised, cowardly, and leader-less Jesus-followers into the dynamic, evangelistic proto-church.

I don't think I've ever found this convincing. The bizarre things people believe for no good reason; the endless routine of present day cults of this and that; the what 20+ years minimum gap before the biblical authors started writing? No, Christianity is infinitely more likely the result of the undoubted charisma of Jesus the man, the commitment and inventiveness of his disciples and biographers, and some fortuitous quirks of history.
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Adeodatus
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quote:
Dave Marshall mentioned:
... the impression that at best Christianity is now a massive irrelevance ...

I am honestly baffled whenever the issue of "relevance" comes into a discussion like this. I'll give you an example of why.

I used to be a physicist, of sorts. Yet the Higgs Boson is, to me, utterly irrelevant. I just don't care about it. I seriously could not give a flying toss about whether it exists or not. If it's shown to exist, then the day after the news breaks, my life will not have changed one iota from what it was like the day before. Discussion of the Higgs Boson frankly bores the tits off me. When I see the assembled evangelists of geekdom getting all excited about it, I just want to start slapping some common sense into their slightly greasy heads.

But what really matters? Its relevance or its truth?

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sir Pellinore
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How wonderful it is, at a time like this, that the Archbishop of Canterbury states his belief in the Resurrection.

It's made my Easter. [Smile]

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Well...

Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
balaam

Making an ass of myself
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Christianity is becoming an irrelevance. At least in Rowan's (and my) denomination, the Church of England. Numbers are steadily declining.

But the CofE is a wide Church, with liberal, traditional evangelical and charismatics among its members. A recent survey has shown that people who who attend evangelical parishes are holding their own in numbers. I did the maths here. Similarly popeople going forward fot the priesthood from Evangelical parishes are not showing decline either.

Now I wouldn't claim that Dr. Williams is an Evangelical by any means. But I cannot think of anyone from within the growing evangelical wing of the CofE who would argue with the Archbishop's statement that God did something and physically raised Jesus from the dead.

If Christianity is becoming an irrelevance it isn'y because of those who hold a traditional view of the resurrection. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say liberalism is becoming an irrelevance?

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Last ever sig ...

blog

Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Beeswax Altar
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quote:
originally posted by Evensong:
Well......traditionally it has been the other way around.

Don't believe in the resurrection? You're not a Christian!

Can't really blame Dave for a bit of reciprocation

Dave's beliefs aren't Christian as the word has been defined for most of its history. Dave claims to be a member of the Church of England but not neccessarily a Christian. Whatever. Dave and I do not practice the same religion so I could care less if Dave defines his religion in a way that excludes me.

Also, I don't really care if Dave's musings on the Church of England are accurate or just a product of his imagination. Rowan Williams should care. If Dave's musings on the Church of England are correct, Rowan Williams, as an orthodox Christian who believes in the resurrection, should resign immediately as Archbishop of Canterbury and leave the apostate Church of England for a church that is actually Christian. If Dave's musings on the Church of England are utter nonsense, then neither the Church of England nor Rowan Williams should give a flying fig what Dave Marshall thinks the Church of England should teach in order to please Dave Marshall.

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Sir Pellinore
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quote:
Originally posted by Balaam:
...

If Christianity is becoming an irrelevance it isn'y because of those who hold a traditional view of the resurrection...

Those who held a traditional view of the Resurrection and traditional Christian views in general ensured Christianity's survival through the most awful persecutions under, for instance, Communism.

"Christianity-Lite" may not survive any real test.

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Well...

Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
gorpo
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:


There is no one in the first century who would ever have believed that the resurrection of Christ meant anything different than an empty tomb and a man who was once dead but now bodily raised.

Specially those who were martirized. I donīt think any of the apostles would bother having gone through what they did for the sake of spreading the "feel good" message that has become the "gospel" of the mainline USA churches.

Donīt this people notice that messages like that from Katharine Jefferts Schori this easter, are actually very lame? So, she avoids any mention of supersticious beliefs like an empty tomb and a ressurrected body, but does she think this cheap self-empowerment messages are actually the Gospel the martyrs died for? Does she even think this type of message is strong enough to make people wake early on a sunday to atend a religious service?

Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged



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