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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The "Tourists Keep Out" Cordon at Famous Churches and Communion
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
Many famous churches allow tourists in during worship services but cordon off the area designated for worship. Some will continue to let people into the cordoned area even after the service begins if they are willing to stay in one place, participate in the service, and not take pictures or talk amongst themselves. Others will have security staff and ushers prevent people from passing the cordons but then open the cordons while communion is being distributed in case anyone who was late for the service (or anyone who dropped in but wants to participate) wants to receive communion.
I was just at a very famous Episcopal Cathedral in the US during their Chrism Mass (they called it the Liturgy of Collegiality - is that the Episcopal Church's name for this service). I walked into the Cathedral on a whim and did not know in advance the service was happening at that time. There were plenty of laypeople in the cordoned-off worship area and plenty of empty seats there too so I assume that all were welcome to attend. People did not appear to be allowed to pass the cordon, and I noticed that people were sitting in seats right behind the cordon and participating in the service, but when communion was distributed, neither the security staff or the ushers (who were located near the cordon) opened the cordon, asked anyone behind it if they wanted to receive, etc. Some of the people sitting on the other side of the cordon seemed unsure if they were allowed to go up for communion or not, and since the service was so formal, probably felt too intimidated to walk to an usher or security person to ask if they could receive. It felt oddly exclusive, which is not the Episcopal Church's reputation. I know the Chrism Mass is primarily about renewing the ordination vows of the diocese's priests and consecrating holy oil for the year, but unless there is no room for visitors and attendance is by invitation only, it seems strange to have the service not be as open to the public as any Sunday Eucharist would be. If it is just the case that the ushers and security were just not paying attention to anyone who was outside the cordon or just assumed they were tourists who would not want to receive communion unless they came up and asked, is that not pretty callous?
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
No, it don't think it was callous. I think that you are reading too much into it.
[ 03. April 2012, 22:14: Message edited by: Ceremoniar ]
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
I have a feeling it was more a case of over-caution than anything else. Security guards unfamiliar with what was going on. The cordon was undoubtedly there to reserve the required amount of space for the ordained clergy of the diocese to occupy. It probably should have been removed after the opening procession, but apparently wasn't. Although the title "Liturgy of Collegiality" certainly seems a bit off-putting to those who aren't part of the group (presumably ordained clergy of the diocese gathered to renew their vows), I have no doubt that any TEC bishop would have welcomed any worshippers present to receive holy communion.
Depending on the place's security, they may have tackled you if you tried. I have encountered some very frightening church security.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
Do these cordons completely block access, or only partially?
Where I work, at an Episcopal cathedral, we use stanchions to force people to enter next to our donation boxes (we get a LOT of tourists and are open every day from about 7am-6pm or later), but we open them for public liturgies held in the nave, precisely because we don't want people to think they're not welcome to attend. The only exception is weddings: even though the stanchions are down to allow access to guests, we allow people to stay in the back of the nave (the narthex, basically) but not take any photos.
I'm not sure what the difference is between a cordon and a stanchion, though. Do you mean something like a stanchion, or do you mean roped-off pews?
And I've never heard the term "Liturgy of Collegiality." We call it a Chrism Mass, Chrism Eucharist, or Eucharist with "Consecration of Holy Oils and Renewal of Ordination Vows."
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
From a quick Google, I can see two dioceses in the US that use the term "Liturgy of Collegiality" for the Chrism Mass. I can presume which of the two is in discussion, but I'll leave the decision of outing which one it is to the OP.
My question is, did anyone at all approach the cordon and ask to receive?
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Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
1. The service took place in a HUGE cathedral with no pews. There were seats in rows all the back the nave to the entrance but the overwhelming majority of these were empty.
2. The clergy (at least those that were vested) were all seated in the choir.
3. The "cordons" were not at the entrance to the nave and aisles, but at the entrance to the crossing, between one row of seats and another. The cordons were essentially stanchions, but with rope instead of a velvet cord. They blocked every aisle so as to make it seem that they should not be passed. There were signs saying do not take pictures during the service but no signs saying whether people were allowed to enter the cordoned area or not.
4. No one asked the security or ushers if they could come forward for communion but the fact that no one offered was odd because most of the seats in the cordoned off worship area were empty, those that were occupied were almost all by laypeople (again, the clergy were in the choir stalls), and there were people sitting in the back row of these seats that had service sheets (which, btw, were not offered to anyone on the other side of the cordon) and went to receive communion. It is possible that people would have been allowed to receive communion if they had asked but the whole atmosphere seemed to discourage any disturbance.
5. Given the number of tourists walking about and the group of people who were sitting just on the other side of the cordon and seemed to be participating in the service, I think it would have been a good idea to open the walkway for them the receive communion if they had wished to. (Being Roman Catholic, I did not intend to. I live in the neighborhood and was taking the opportunity to stroll through the cathedral when I stumbled upon the Chrism Mass.) The Chrism Mass is quite different from a wedding, and is something I would think anyone in the diocese would be invited to unless there was a shortage of seats. If I had wanted to receive communion, I would have been terrified to ask an usher or security official, and I dislike being asked (as I was once at a famous Lutheran church nearby - I assure you that I do attend RC church every time I am supposed to!) by ushers if I am going to receive communion (I feel bad saying no!), so the simplest solution in my mind would have been to just open up an aisle for anyone who wanted to receive.
6. Of course I am making a big deal out of nothing - that is what people who post on liturgy forums, especially with reference to something they observed one time in one place, do! I just thought that the Chrism Mass is such a beautiful thing, regardless of the denomination (okay, I am married to minister who is really interested in the Chrism Mass and chrism in general), and that the setup in this cathedral seemed to communicate, "this service is for the diocesan clergy and those laypeople who arrived on time. Anyone else who would stroll into this place this time of day probably just wants to take a picture so we should just act like they are not there." Removing the rope for just a few minutes during communion is a big deal - it makes the Liturgy not seem like the actions of a club.
7. The service was otherwise beautiful.
8. My main point is that I think that security staff in places of worship that are public landmarks need to be a bit more mindful of the worship that is going on (and that visitors might want to participate in).
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
Without even bothering to goo-goo-google for the required phrase, I will say that "HUGE cathedral" kind of narrows it down for me.
Especially since staff at one of the "TEC Big Three" (my local) has weighed in.
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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
If it is just the case that the ushers and security... just assumed they were tourists who would not want to receive communion unless they came up and asked, is that not pretty callous?
I've come across this attitude in several British cathedrals. Not specifically in relation to receiving communion, but the implication that you are either a committed worshipper or a secular tourist, and are unlikely to be both. It manifests itself when cathedrals charge for entrance but allow 'those who want to pray' to use a side chapel (and presumably keep their eyes averted from any interesting art-works or memorial tablets on their way in); or when the information offered to tourists focuses on the building's history or architectural interest and not on its significance as a place of worship.
Tourists who come to look round may catch a spiritual glimpse and leave as pilgrims, or at least as potential pilgrims. It's one very important way that cathedrals can be focuses of evangelism. It must be difficult to preserve the primary function of the cathedral when they are overwhelmed by camera-flashing tourists, but they shouldn't apologise for that function and instead show a welcome to all.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
I am reminded of the advice I was given before my first visit to England, regarding gaining easy access to 'important' churches (think W Abbey or St Geo's Windsor). A Brit friend said 'Wear nice clothes, carry your prayer book, and say 'We're here for the service.'' The only challenge we got was at Evensong at Hampton Court chapel Royal, where the security guy said 'You must stay for the entire service.'
(The choir of IIRC 8 boys and 4 men sang the Parry 'I Was Glad' and did quite handsomely.)
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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Mary Marriott
Apprentice
# 16938
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Posted
Very disappointing stonespring. Thanks.
It was callous and inexcusable.
The authorities produced a 'beautiful liturgy' but overlooked 'the one thing needful'.
Fancy making people feel so unwelcome and excluded at a place of worship and fellowship. And what a poor witness !
I too have seen this in Anglican places of worship, amidst the pomp and immaculate music and ceremonial, something essent-ial has been overlooked - lost.
And Christ himself been overlooked -if the cathedral accepts his own message about where and in whom he is to be found.
Ironic given the nominal emphasis on 'collegiality'and its association with Easter.
And very sad.
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'We have to be ready to move forward' she said. 'Maybe this is not how we are meant to be for ever.' (Mina in Skellig)
Posts: 32 | From: the half way house | Registered: Feb 2012
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
I am reminded of the advice I was given before my first visit to England, regarding gaining easy access to 'important' churches (think W Abbey or St Geo's Windsor). A Brit friend said 'Wear nice clothes, carry your prayer book, and say 'We're here for the service.''
Or wear a priest's collar -- they'll never charge you admission.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
I am obviously not privy to all the secret details of this famous Episcopal cathedral, but if I were in charge, I think I would prefer a policy like the following.
When services are in progress, no cordons are used, and admission fees are not charged. Large signs at each entrance say:
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"Service in Progress. [Leave space to announce the nature of the service] You are welcome to join us in worship. Please take a service leaflet [have some laying around nearby] and take a seat in the nearest row behind the other worshippers.
If you are here to tour the cathedral, we ask that you remain in the side aisles nearest the stained glass windows, remain quiet, and refrain from flash photography during the service, which is estimated to finish at [time here]. After the service, you may move at will throughout the worship space and take photos."
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Okay, it's long, but it says what needs to be said. Those guards? Station them near these signs to welcome people to the church [smiling, not scowling], hand out service leaflets, and answer questions about what is going on and how long it is going to take.
If you don't want tourists mulling about your church, don't build a ginormous fancy cathedral and continuously tell people to come to visit it! Otherwise, put up with a little messiness and let people mull about.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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JeffTL
Apprentice
# 16722
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Posted
Never heard of a Liturgy of Collegiality. Here in Chicago it's the Chrism Mass, but it's not on Holy Thursday anymore. The bishop moved it up a few weeks, on a Saturday morning, and got rid of the whole bit with renewal of ordination vows. He thought it had become too much about the renewal of ordination vows, rather than the actual intended purpose – consecration of chrism for the whole church. And since the chrism is for everyone, he's trying to make the service where it is made be for everyone, too. Sadly, the chrism mass in your diocese sounds very firmly like it's mostly a clergy affair.
Posts: 49 | From: Chicago | Registered: Oct 2011
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
In England we'd never have "security staff", as if there was something to be protected. They are vergers and stewards: they can be over-protective of services.
Martin L has the right idea, to my mind.
"Liturgy of Collegiality" sounds affected to my mind.
Well I'm off to my tatty cathedral for a Chrism Mass soon. (As a layperson.)
[ 05. April 2012, 07:56: Message edited by: venbede ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I'm back. The service was lovely, and totally full. The clergy renewing their vows sat in mufti in the congregation with the rest of us.
Just to say that off the tourist track in England, the stewards at cathedrals are unlikely to be paid staff, but sweet retired folk working as volunteers.
And I'm afraid like so many English, they just get embarrassed if anyone talks about religion.
Last week I visited one wonderful medieval building in a tiny country town. I arrived to see a notice that the cathedral was not available for visitors, as it was in use for an end of term school service.
I entered in tactfully at the back, and indeed it was full of the school. There were a couple of lady stewards in gowns, so I asked one of them if there would be time to look round between the end of the school service and evensong, which I would attend later.
At the mention of Evensong, she appeared to panic and wasn't sure whether there was evensong or not (she hadn't heard what I said) and asks another steward who was equally unsure whether or not there would be. (There was, as I knew.)
I was quite embarrassed for them.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Like the others, I was mystified at the term "Liturgy of Collegiality," and wickedly thought for a moment that this was like the Collect for Purity, something to which we might realistically aspire only through divine help.
Security anywhere these days tends to be a bit dramatic and apocalyptic in approach. Security may have been confused by the reference to communion, unless they had previously been briefed-- we should on no account assume that anyone outside the church geek fraternity (or shipmates) would know what that meant. It might have been easier for them if one asked for a service sheet and where one might sit.
I am sympathetic to churches which have become tourist meccas for one reason or the other and which have to cover costs somehow. I tend to ask when the next service will be, as this usually gets me a better reception from staff.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Building on what venbede hinted about the knowledge of the staff...
There must be a staff room where the volunteers leave their coats and pick up their name badges. I think a nice markerboard or chalkboard would be nice in there, with the details of the day's events.
Today at the cathedral (all events free of charge, open to public)
7am Morning Prayer in the Chapel of St. Eleutherius
8am Holy Communion at the High Altar--direct worshippers to sit in the choir seats
12pm Noontime office in the Chapel of St. Helen of the Blessed Shroud
5pm Evening Prayer in the choir--direct worshippers to sit in the back two rows of the choir on both sides of the aisle.
From 30 minutes before each service and during each service, no admission fee is requested.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
I think some of the very large cathedrals can be so swamped by visitors that it can be very difficult to adopt a via media. I don't think any of the Welsh cathedrals charge and the other cathedral I know, Hereford, doesn't charge, although they do like you to give a donation
Chester cathedral charges - last time I was there it was £4 (senior citizen + 50p donation) I thought that was reasonable to be honest - I'd probably have given a donation of that ilk anyway.It's in London especially that I think the charges are too high and unkind people think of moneychangers in the temple (!). However having been present in St.Paul's at Easter many years back before they had charging I can see the other side.People talking at the back during the service, moving around between the pews and the nave altar (at the time) during Communion
Sometimes these showpieces can be the worst places to worship in......my favourite is I think Hereford Cathedral which is a nice place for prayer and also I've noticed that quite often the visitors stay behind for Choral Evensong mostly staying for it all
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
It is it too nitpicky to note that anyone arriving after the Offertory (or is it after the proclamation of the Holy Gospel?) has no business going to Communion?
However, if access was begrudged those arriving earlier, I agree that it is callous. To provide for worshippers on the far side of a roped-off area when there is plenty of space within seems pointless and schizophrenic. Tourists without guidance can be very intrusive and clueless about how to behave-- walking all around, taking pictures, gawking, probably even conversing, and then walking out again during a service. I've never noticed much deliberate abuse of an invitation to become a worshiper who follows the service and stays until the end, but perhaps we need to trust the judgment of those whose jobs
allow them to speak from bitter experience.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
It is it too nitpicky to note that anyone arriving after the Offertory (or is it after the proclamation of the Holy Gospel?) has no business going to Communion?
Given that this rule only applies to RCs, if at all, then yes it might be!
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
It is it too nitpicky to note that anyone arriving after the Offertory (or is it after the proclamation of the Holy Gospel?) has no business going to Communion?
Given that this rule only applies to RCs, if at all, then yes it might be!
The rule also applies to anyone catechized by Archdeacon Bradley.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
This rule does emphatically not apply to RCs.
If one is in a proper disposition,one may receive Communion at any time.
The idea of arriving before the Offertory (or in some cases people say before the Gospel) has to do with fulfilling the requirements of attendance at Mass on days of obligation.
If one wanted to adopt a very legalistic standpoint and say that one had missed by one's own laziness or carelessness to be present at the obligatory parts of the Mass ,then one could say that one had committed a mortal sin and one would not be of a proper disposition in which to receive Communion.Fortunately few people think that way nowadays.
It happens every year on the day that the clocks go forward that some people will arrive towards the end of Mass,having forgotten about the change of time.Who is going to say that they are in a state of mortal sin ,unable to receive Holy Communion ? Certainly not I /me !!
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
This rule does emphatically not apply to RCs.
If one is in a proper disposition,one may receive Communion at any time.
Well, Forthview can duke it out with the late Archdeacon of Cornwall in the next life. We were told very clearly that one needed to participate in the confession and receive general absolution, and participate in the offertory prayers, or not receive. If one did not, then one should not receive (he later clarified that the rule would be bent and that we could receive if we were in immediate danger of death, generally not a situation encountered by most 13-yr olds).
Still, things may have changed since then...
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Sorry for double-posting, but careful reading tells me that Forthview was talking about RCs, and I was not. Apologies for the onfusion.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
This rule does emphatically not apply to RCs.
If one is in a proper disposition,one may receive Communion at any time.
E.G. from the Blessed Sacrament reserved, or (as used to be done, although perhaps not characteristically RC) give Communion to choir members and the other musicians before or after the mass, rather than at the proper point-- because as "functionaries" they could not spare the time, or even because the rest of the congregation didn't care to spare them the time. And there are those all the way up and down the candle who would call one or both of these practices abusive and/or superstitious.
It is one thing to indulge a faithful congregant who apparently has great faith in the benefit of the sacrament outside the context of the liturgy and regrets accidental serious tardiness. It is another thing for visitors to presume that the church has a kind of duty to indulge them in this way.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
I am reminded of the advice I was given before my first visit to England, regarding gaining easy access to 'important' churches (think W Abbey or St Geo's Windsor). A Brit friend said 'Wear nice clothes, carry your prayer book, and say 'We're here for the service.''
Or wear a priest's collar -- they'll never charge you admission.
Don't believe it, a curate friend of mine had to argue her way into her own dioceses cathederal, when she arrived too early for a service.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
Tourists can be a problem when they don't behave appropriately in a church usually through ignorance. I was doing my usual stint as a guide in my church, there wasn't a service at the time and there were lots of visiting tourists. Several young Asian women went up to the altar and took it in turns to drape themselves over the altar in seductive poses for photographs. They became quite abusive when I asked them to desist and I had to ask them to leave the church. I don't think they had any idea that this was a place of worship where there are acceptable standards of behaviour.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
While I've never had any experience as dramatic as Bib's, I have had to provide advice to visitors when I used to give tours of a certain historic church in Ottawa. It soon became clear to me that many visitors had no experience of being in churches and what was expected, so I found it easiest to just give a few words of advice before the tour (e.g., hats off for men), reminding them that, like mosques and synagogues, it was a worship space and there was customary behaviour to be observed.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
I think it was an article in the New York Times a few weeks ago that was about Black Pentecostal churches in Harlem having this problem. Tour companies bring busloads of people to hear the Gospel music. Many of the tourists don't show respect for the service, treating it more like a show. Few even stay for the whole service.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
Aren't most Really Big Old Cathedrals already built to handle throngs of tourists who have some knowledge of how to behave in church, seeing as they were probably pilgrimage sites? I'm thinking of the walled-off walkways (the ambulatory?) between the outer wall of the church and the choir, where pilgrims could continue to visit chapels and relics and gawk at the church, even while services were in session,* or the tunnel under the choir at Westminster Abbey, for stinky, noisy pilgrims to use while services were in session up above.
Of course, much of it may be that many people no longer know how to behave in church, even if Christian churches are part of their experience. If I were a typical college backpacker going to Japan for the nightlife, or to Italy to hit on "h-o-t-t Italian guys/girls," then why would I have any idea on the proper rituals and behaviors for Catholic churches, Shinto shrines, and Buddhist temples? Sure, it's all well and good to point out that one should know something about the culture of the country you're going to, which would include religious practices and manners, but, very sadly, a lot of people don't bother with that before making the obligatory trip to some big place of worship they heard they were supposed to see.**
*Yet another interesting factoid I learned by traveling around Italy with my art historian ex—this time while in some really gorgeous church across from where we stayed in Padua. "This must have been a pilgrimage church" she told me; "these architectural features let the pilgrims see the church during services."
Yeah, there might have been a few pilgrims to the Basilica of St. Anthony.
**Which raises the question of why you'd even want to travel abroad if you can't be bothered/aren't interested in the local culture, but only want to get drunk and screw. For that, I have no answer.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AristonAstuanax:
Aren't most Really Big Old Cathedrals already built to handle throngs of tourists who have some knowledge of how to behave in church,
It depends on where and by whom. In England, cathedrals of the Old Foundation were built as cathedrals before the reformation, but those of the New Foundation were originally monastic churches. If the latter, they were probably built first and foremost to accommodate numerous altars so that all the priests in the community could celebrate mass daily in the morning, perhaps all simultaneously. They were not built as auditoriums for large crowds at all. In France it was apparently different. The cathedrals tended to be in larger cities and were built partly out of civic pride.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Bos Loquax
Shipmate
# 16602
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I think it was an article in the New York Times a few weeks ago that was about Black Pentecostal churches in Harlem having this problem. Tour companies bring busloads of people to hear the Gospel music. Many of the tourists don't show respect for the service, treating it more like a show. Few even stay for the whole service.
I don't know what relation this piece has to what you remember, but I did find this:
"European tourists packing the pews at Harlem’s historic black churches"
Posts: 58 | From: California | Registered: Aug 2011
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
The proper thing at Westminster Abbey is to make yourself known as a intended worship participant well before any public service. He or she will then be able to identify you apart from the tourist hoards and assist with any planned attendance and seating. That does not mean rushing into the abbey at the last minute before a choral service expecting preferential treatment.
When in London as a tourist, and I want to attend Evensong at the abbey, I always take the trouble to visit sometime earlier in the day to ask for a seat for myself in the choir stalls, or in the presbytery, if it is a bigger service than daily Evensong. The verger on duty has always been kind enough to take my name and then then provide a seat for me in the choir stalls. There is no charge for that.
The Abbey and most other churches I know of, do not want to charge entrance fees for ordinary worshipers if they can be distinguished from the bulk of ordinary sightseers and tourists. But that doesn't apply to ordinary sightseers who decide they want to stay to hear some interesting music.
I think the same thing might be said in regard to the issue raised in the opening post here. The crew member apparently, and quite by happenstance, encountered the celebration of what is traditionally called the Chrism Mass of Holy Week, but in this case called a 'Eucharist of Collegiality'. The Mass is actually celebrated for, among other things, those clergy and their bishop with collegial relationships in their ministries in the diocese. In that sense the service is not one of evangelistic outreach to the genral public, much less to those getting off tourist buses, but very much an in-house affair by invitation, and with an RSVP luncheon following for the bishop and his clergy alone.
While anyone happening by is, I would think, welcome to participate at such a service from seating provided at some distance, it is quite a mistake to assume that the word "collegiality" applies to the general public in terms of providing wholesale, up close inclusion for such a specialized, once a year event.
Posts: 862 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
The proper thing at Westminster Abbey is to make yourself known as a intended worship participant well before any public service. He or she will then be able to identify you apart from the tourist hoards and assist with any planned attendance and seating. That does not mean rushing into the abbey at the last minute before a choral service expecting preferential treatment.
I've rushed to the Abbey in torrential rain expecting to be turned away as too late for Sunday Evensong, only to be greeted at the gate by a steward with an umbrella, welcomed warmly, and led to a prime seat (the Lord High Commissioner's, I think) in the quire. And with a couple of minutes to spare before the introit.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
A friend and I were heading through the gate for Evensong at Westminster Abbey. The guard turned away the young man ahead of me. I then told him we were really there for Evensong. He smiled and said "We can tell."
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bos Loquax:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I think it was an article in the New York Times a few weeks ago that was about Black Pentecostal churches in Harlem having this problem. Tour companies bring busloads of people to hear the Gospel music. Many of the tourists don't show respect for the service, treating it more like a show. Few even stay for the whole service.
I don't know what relation this piece has to what you remember, but I did find this:
"European tourists packing the pews at Harlem’s historic black churches"
As noted in the article, some churches and tour operators have worked out mutual agreements. Basically: the tour operators enforce dress and conduct rules and the church gets revenue.
Sometimes the visitors have their own seating area and are acknowledged/welcomed in the service (which they may not stay for the entire length of).
I'd love to do a Harlem tour some time when I am in NYC but I would be asking a lot of questions about the arrangements!
As another data point relevant to the general discussion, my church's choir was in residence at Salisbury Cathedral this past summer and reports that they pretty much got the "paparazzi" treatment from the visitors (cameras almost in their faces during rehearsal).
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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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Utrecht Catholic
Shipmate
# 14285
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Posted
I have visited Westminster Abbey and St.Paul's cathedral many times both for looking around and worship. But I have visited also St.John the Divine in New-York a couple of times.
To be honest, the reception in New-York was always very friendly, the stewards,and vergers were far more relaxed than their colleagues at the London churches.
I have the same experience in Cologne cathedral, always relaxed and friendly.
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Robert Kennedy
Posts: 220 | From: Dordrecht | Registered: Nov 2008
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