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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Listening skills and the clergy
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Miffy
Ship's elephant
# 1438
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Posted
Over on the When ministry becomes an inflated balloon... thread, Anselmina replied to Alg:
quote:
'Triads'! We did this a fair bit, mostly in listening skills exercises, however.
We did do the Belbin thing, too - as well as Myers-Briggs. Belbin was about group dynamics and the advantages of balancing complementary personalities in teams.
In a perfect world maybe.
I'm curious. Are development of listening skills a standard part of ordination training nowadays? The other day whilst at our local diocesan church house, I picked up a little card entitled
An Hour Out which had previously been offered as a resource to the clergy, encouraging them to set aside a few hours each week to be intentional about hearing their parishioners stories of their spiritual journeys during Lent. Details here
http://www.oxford.anglican.org/communication/newsletter/newsletter-18-january-2012.html
It's rather good, I thought, detailing some basic listening skills guidelines for the 'Parish Priest or other' on one side and on the reverse, for the parishioner , suggestions for making the most of the time.
Can't say I remember ever seeing it around our place but then our current vicar is an excellent and compassionate listener and is intentional about setting aside time to listen to his parishioners and to encourage us to be there for each other any time of the year!
My initial reaction to this resource was surely the clergy - of all people don't need to be reminded of the importance of all this; isn't it part and parcel of their calling? Am I talking through my hat; perhaps the resource was simply offered as a reminder of best practice?
Or, as it hints in the link, are clergy simply sick and tired of talking about the pcc, parish share, repairs to the church roof and this is a subtle means of enlarging your average parishioner's repertoire?
[hosts sorry - can't get UBB linky thing to work again]
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"I don't feel like smiling." "You're English dear; fake it!" (Colin Firth "Easy Virtue")
Growing Greenpatches
Posts: 4739 | From: The Kitchen | Registered: Oct 2001
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
I think there is a big difference between general good listening and 'professional listening'.
All of the listening professions include specialist training in listening, a focussed awareness of what is going on, listening to the non-verbal cues. Part of that is knowing whether you are 'fully there' in yourself.
On occasion I know that, crises exempted, I shouldn't do a listening visit because I am too tired, my depression is too much of an interference etc so that is a good time for boring admin.
As regards the resource you found I think that getting the pastoral visitor (collared or not) to make it a spiritual visit, to create a space to discuss things from a faith perspective. It is easy for all involved to just chat about the weather, their corns, family etc. With neither side perhaps being brave into to bring into the conversation what they really want to talk about.
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
I would like to think that every ordination training course had a well-equipped module on Listening Skills, under pastoral training.
I forget the name of the guy who did ours; he was a psychotherapist/pschologist, a Christian priest but working mainly in a non-religious context. This was useful because he was able to help us draw lines between listening and counselling; how to develop a sense of when something is outside just listening helpfully and goes into the territory of needing medical help.
That was also the module that covered confessional listening, the law. And we did the listening skills thing, too. Very much along the same lines that the Samaritans used, at the time, for training their volunteers.
I'd say it was a pretty essential thing, really. And also essential is the topping up of such habits and skills from time to time.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I trained for NSM about 25 years ago and the GME had nothing about listening skills. it was assumed that the vicar of the title parish did that.
An ordinand due to be ordained at the end of the month has also done nothing on this.
In my spiritual director training, however, it was part of every session, monthly over two years, with triads etc.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Not only are listening skills a part of ministerial training in the URC, if a lay person does pastoral care training they too will get listening skills, actually I think you get basic training in them if you do any formal training with the denomination as well.
Pastoral Care involves using listening skills. Why would anyone think clergy did not need it as much as they need training on preaching.
Jengie
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
I had extensive training on Christening Skills.
AtB, Pyx_e
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Miffy
Ship's elephant
# 1438
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
I think there is a big difference between general good listening and 'professional listening'.
All of the listening professions include specialist training in listening, a focussed awareness of what is going on, listening to the non-verbal cues. Part of that is knowing whether you are 'fully there' in yourself.
On occasion I know that, crises exempted, I shouldn't do a listening visit because I am too tired, my depression is too much of an interference etc so that is a good time for boring admin.
As regards the resource you found I think that getting the pastoral visitor (collared or not) to make it a spiritual visit, to create a space to discuss things from a faith perspective. It is easy for all involved to just chat about the weather, their corns, family etc. With neither side perhaps being brave into to bring into the conversation what they really want to talk about.
So we are talking about listening on another level here then, far more deeply focussed than that that I might give the friend sitting next to me in the pew, for example.
Re the card, it does Sound as if that was what was intended, to encourage both sides to make best use of the time available, doesn't it? Weird in some ways, isn't it, how many of us find talking about matters of faith , scarey, embarrassing or both!
And the point about self-care is vital.
Anselmina - sounds good. Interesting to see whether others have had similar experiences.
Leo I was about to say let's hope things have moved on since your nsm training, and then I caught sight of your next point. Worrying.
I agree that practice of skills like these are an essential part of direction training; we worked in triads every week. Interestingly, I did notice the occasional tendency in some clergy course members, (not all!) to feel they had to jump in to 'put people right,' but that's probably going off the point of my OP.
Posts: 4739 | From: The Kitchen | Registered: Oct 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
... it was part of every session, monthly over two years, with triads etc.
Its nice to see that Hong Kong gangsters value interpersonal relationships so much.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Miffy
Ship's elephant
# 1438
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
... it was part of every session, monthly over two years, with triads etc.
Its nice to see that Hong Kong gangsters value interpersonal relationships so much.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) Why oh why did I decide to launch a serious discussion thread on Eurovision night?
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"I don't feel like smiling." "You're English dear; fake it!" (Colin Firth "Easy Virtue")
Growing Greenpatches
Posts: 4739 | From: The Kitchen | Registered: Oct 2001
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Miffy
Ship's elephant
# 1438
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
You watch that camp crap?
I'm expanding the creative dimension of my spirituality. Besides, Ms Miffy's home. She bribed me with chocolates.
I think we may need pospone this discussion until another day. There's no way I can engage in serious theological musings with that row going on in the background.
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"I don't feel like smiling." "You're English dear; fake it!" (Colin Firth "Easy Virtue")
Growing Greenpatches
Posts: 4739 | From: The Kitchen | Registered: Oct 2001
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Miffy
Ship's elephant
# 1438
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I forgive you and repent my dismissal of folk religion - especially when it involves chocolate.
Fairy nuff. Now, we'd best get back to the OP topic before Pyx_e gets going on his extensive Christening skills and has us forcibly booted up to Heaven.
Any takers?
[ 27. May 2012, 20:43: Message edited by: Miffy ]
Posts: 4739 | From: The Kitchen | Registered: Oct 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Miffy:
I'm curious. Are development of listening skills a standard part of ordination training nowadays?
Not sure yet. I'm only 18 months in so can only say I've formally done a semester at Uni on pastoral care. We have an eleven week intensive in Clincal And Pastoral Education that is in a hospital setting that I haven't done yet (which I assume would cover skills like active listening.)
quote:
Originally posted by Miffy:
My initial reaction to this resource was surely the clergy - of all people don't need to be reminded of the importance of all this; isn't it part and parcel of their calling? Am I talking through my hat; perhaps the resource was simply offered as a reminder of best practice?
I've had three different clergy over the last twelve years and have never had an intentional chat with them like this.
I'm not entirely sure how well it would work to be honest.
Spiritual Direction (which this sounds like a prelude to) takes a bit of time....time to build a bit of rapport....
Launching suddenly into very intimate details of one's life is nice in theory....but can't say it happens in practise a lot IME. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
But then again, maybe I never felt the need to speak to my clergy in such a way? My main spiritual confidants have always been my husband and my family.....
Then again, it could be cos the first time I ever felt really vulnerable and needed to speak to my clergyperson they ran away. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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a theological scrapbook
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
It all sounds rather hollow when the priest has so many churches to run he's not capable of stopping still in one place long enough to listen to anyone. Whether or not he or she is trained to do so.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
It all sounds rather hollow when the priest has so many churches to run he's not capable of stopping still in one place long enough to listen to anyone. Whether or not he or she is trained to do so.
I agree. The time spent in small talk opens the door to being able to talk about the scary big things when they hit.
But at some point I need to encourage the shift to spiritual talk, not force, but make a safe space for it.
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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
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Posted
Back in "the day" (or at least, my day!) the training focus at seminary was on reflective listening. Like any other acquired skill, it can, of course be badly done, and come off with the pastor looking thick-headed or patronizing.
But basically, as the parishoner pours out her heart, the pastor regularly opens his hands, palms up, fingers pointing outward, but in the direction of the nattering parishoner, and says something brilliant such as, "So you are saying that you believe eating lots of watermellon every day might bring about be an important transformation in your life right now?"
The parishoner smiles, nods, and replies "Well, yes, sort of, that is what I meant" while thinking "No, you fatuous ass, what I am saying is that I think a low-carb diet might help curb my snoring and thereby help my sex life achieve the occasional return engagement with first-time lovers."
Of course, this could possibly be an hyberbolic over-simplification, but...
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Miffy
Ship's elephant
# 1438
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
It all sounds rather hollow when the priest has so many churches to run he's not capable of stopping still in one place long enough to listen to anyone. Whether or not he or she is trained to do so.
I agree. The time spent in small talk opens the door to being able to talk about the scary big things when they hit.
But at some point I need to encourage the shift to spiritual talk, not force, but make a safe space for it.
Exactly. And it needn't necessarily take up huge amounts of time. Some people have the gift of creating such a safe space within the parameters of everyday chit chat. A quick ten minute conversation, wisely used, can prevent the relatively minor from building up into something far more serious. On the other hand, IME, folk will often, even subconsciously pick up if the would- be listener is sending out vibes of non-availability.
Posts: 4739 | From: The Kitchen | Registered: Oct 2001
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Miffy
Ship's elephant
# 1438
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Silver Faux:
Back in "the day" (or at least, my day!) the training focus at seminary was on reflective listening. Like any other acquired skill, it can, of course be badly done, and come off with the pastor looking thick-headed or patronizing.
But basically, as the parishoner pours out her heart, the pastor regularly opens his hands, palms up, fingers pointing outward, but in the direction of the nattering parishoner, and says something brilliant such as, "So you are saying that you believe eating lots of watermellon every day might bring about be an important transformation in your life right now?"
The parishoner smiles, nods, and replies "Well, yes, sort of, that is what I meant" while thinking "No, you fatuous ass, what I am saying is that I think a low-carb diet might help curb my snoring and thereby help my sex life achieve the occasional return engagement with first-time lovers."
Of course, this could possibly be an hyberbolic over-simplification, but...
Let's try and continue this scintillating dialogue...
The pastor raises his eyebrows to the heavens whilst simultaneously inclining his head to one side and nodding in a modest, all-knowing Yoda like manner and says, gently, "Transformation...| wonder if you'd like to tell me a little more about that..."
Parishioner wriggles round uncomfortably in his seat, "Umm...well...you see, it's like this: I've this feeling in my gut," while thinking "Oh s**t! "
Cue long silence whilst both parties evince a sudden intense fascination with the pattern on the office carpet.
Pastor - "Mmmmm.....guts...would you like to tell me a little more about them...? " [and so on ad infinitum]
Both
[thinks] "M'aidez, m'aidez!!"
Posts: 4739 | From: The Kitchen | Registered: Oct 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
A triad is an observer listening to and then feeding back to a couple role-playing a counseling-type session.
Yes, but its a silly name.
And having been there and done that far, far, far too much oin the past I sincerely hope never again to be in any "counseling-type session" as either participant or observer.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Miffy has it! ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Miffy
Ship's elephant
# 1438
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Posted
Thanks, Chorister!
Ken, have no fear. I'll not be suggesting you, me and Leo engage in a counselling-type situation any time soon.
Thanks, Jengie, Avila, Leo, Evensong, Chorister, Silver Faux and Anselmina. That's clarified matters for me slighty.
To be fair, my OP could have been better focussed. ie. "To what extent are specialised listening skills part of initial ministerial training?" might have been more to the point.
I guess I was jumping to the conclusion that the resource in the OP implied a certain lack of basic training, which your answers confirm isn't necessarily so. Evensong, you felt those skills highlighted on the card shaded over into spiritual direction territory, one specialism, IME which by no means all ministers possess.Or laypersons. That may be more to the point.
I'd still be interested to hear from other Shippies on the topic though.
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"I don't feel like smiling." "You're English dear; fake it!" (Colin Firth "Easy Virtue")
Growing Greenpatches
Posts: 4739 | From: The Kitchen | Registered: Oct 2001
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
I think good listening skills are part and parcel of any worthwhile cleric's tool kit, Miffy.
A formal course, taught by a good practical exponent of a genuine helping/pastoral care profession, might help, with the caution that some of the more facile extroverted postulants might learn to "talk the talk" rather than "walk the walk".
Pastoral care requires some real depth of personality, which cannot be gained when a person is relatively young and inexperienced merely by attending for three or four years at a theological school.
Avila is quite right about making a safe place for spiritual talk. Spirituality is at the core of what the Church is about. If you take away the spirituality then all you have left will be a drab "social outreach" available through many other institutions. May God save us from that! It's Christ's transforming love which makes the Church and really changes lives. Or should.
Many, most, all of the clerics who posted on this thread and many others on SOF are IMHO quite excellent exponents of pastoral care. One could do worse than observe and emulate them.
Evensong asks about honesty. I guess you need to discern who is really worth opening up to if you want real spiritual direction or guidance. They are few and far between IMHO.
The Cure D'Ars would be my ideal pastoral carer. He listened and gave real, inspired direction. He did this in a sacred, private place: the confessional. Those of us in other churches need to find and zealously guard our own sacred, private places where people can be listened to; absolved; directed appropriately and emerge healed.
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Well...
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