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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Racist Colleagues
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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290
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Posted
I work for the Benefits Agency. Not a glamorous job, not a well-paid job; certainly not everyone's cup of tea but I enjoy it for the most part and do my best for the people we serve.
My next-desk colleague is a racist. Whenever she has a claim to deal with which features some *furren-sounding name*, she comes out with *OH NO, NOT Piotr Imascroungerski* and her general discourse could be lifted verbatim from the Daily Heil.
Yes, we have Diversity & Equality Procedures but they can only be applied (AFAIK) if you hear someone dissing a claimant to their face (or over the phone) in such terms.
Last week, I tried humour. She was going on about some Eastern European who had been found guilty of shoplifting and I said *tsk, coming over here, taking jobs from Decent British Shoplifters*. Didn't work. Won't answer any direct or indirect challenge. Don't think I have enough *evidence* to go to the D&E person but it's really getting on my tits.
Also thinks she's a *cut above* the rest of her colleagues and/or the claimants because she's doing an OU degree in Humanities & Classics. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Any ideas?
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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain
Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
No ideas, but I love your "decent British shoplifters" quip.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
No ideas, but I love your "decent British shoplifters" quip.
I have half a memory that back in the 1970s and 1980s the police uysed to refer to "ordinary decent criminals" of "ODCs". That is normal thieves and the like who are in it for the money. Mainly used in contrast with the IRA and their "loyalist" opponents who used to rob banks, sell drugs and so on to get money for weapons.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
Next time she does it, get up, leave your desk and immediately report it to your manager. From your managers office phone and complain to your Union and refuse to work anywhere near her until the employer deals with it.
I once worked in a public service, they took a very dim view of racist views whether or not they had been said to the person or just to the general vicinity. I suspect if you spoke to the Union they'd tell you that racist views were not only serious if directed to someone in particular.
[ 25. May 2012, 17:56: Message edited by: the long ranger ]
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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tomsk
Shipmate
# 15370
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Posted
I'd be surprised if what you describe wouldn't amount to some kind of misconduct. Public sector employers try to be strong on the diversity stuff. So you could report it if you feel strongly. Of course, if management at your place isn't v. robust it might not do anything, or be cack-handed. Can be quite divisive too. You might try saying more directly that you think it's offensive; people can be quite accepting when you point it out and explain. Some of these occupations do have people who have very jaundiced views about the clientele though.
Posts: 372 | From: UK | Registered: Dec 2009
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Next time she does it, get up, leave your desk and immediately report it to your manager. From your managers office phone and complain to your Union and refuse to work anywhere near her until the employer deals with it.
Seconded. It's making you uncomfortable and that affects working relationships. It might only need a gentle word from your line manager to get her to keep potentially offensive opinions to herself. If she wants freedom of speech then tell her to haul it in when on duty, as she could be understood to be expressing government policy. I'm sure the Civil Service Code can be construed in such a way.
Remember however that there are a lot of 'em about. Even managers and (I'm afraid) union reps.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Alternatively, speak to the manager and see if it could be addressed as a training need for this employee - means they see you as less troublesome than someone raising a grievance, gets it on their radar - and just possibly the training might work.
Worth including in the conversation, "I know she has said nothing to a client yet, but sooner or later she will - and that will be a mess someone will have to deal with"
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Yes-- aren't there some liability concerns here (or is that an American construct?) If these comments became public-- overheard, say, by a delivery boy or other passerby-- couldn't an immigrant or ethnic minority who is denied benefits or feels his/her claim was handled slowly claim bias in the handling of his/her case? If that is a possibility, I would think the fact that the agency is employing a known racist could be seen as actionable (again, at least in American terms)
[ 25. May 2012, 18:18: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
A workplace free of discrimination means just that. It doesn't mean "free of discrimination except when we can talk about people behind their backs." OliviaG
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Yes-- aren't there some liability concerns here (or is that an American construct?) If these comments became public-- overheard, say, by a delivery boy or other passerby-- couldn't an immigrant or ethnic minority who is denied benefits or feels his/her claim was handled slowly claim bias in the handling of his/her case? If that is a possibility, I would think the fact that the agency is employing a known racist could be seen as actionable (again, at least in American terms)
AIUI that would apply in the UK too- probably harassment under s26 of the Equality Act 2010 tho' it's not clear from the statute whether the person offended by the behaviour has to share the characteristic (in this case, nationality/ethnicity) that the behaviour relates to. The harasser is personally liable and the employer can be, certainly if they knew of it and did nothing to stop it, and likely in some other circumstances too.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
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Posted
What Think2 said. The racist comments are serious, and unacceptable, but my gut instinct would be that you should avoid creating a huge distance between yourself and this colleague; that will just drive the racist comments underground and encourage her to spend more time with people who share her racist views. Could you drop a few positive anecdotes into a conversation somehow?
If this doesn't work, maybe try confronting it in a semi-humorous way, e.g. "Actually, my grandfather was Polish...[wait for shocked expression to appear]...no, it's OK, I'm just kidding! But I wouldn't say things like that if I were you - you never know when you might really upset someone!"
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
:deadpan voice: "My mother is Polish."
:Take out cut throat razor and sharpen it on edge of desk:
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Ha. One of my son's friends was texting him increasingly off-colour jokes. The latest was about Jews. I raised an eyebrow and suggested he texted back "You do know my dad's Jewish, don't you?"
The poor kid hasn't stopped apologising since. Lesson learnt, hopefully...
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Politely and non-chalantly, ask "where were *your* ancestors from?" Though that might work better here in the US, since we identify as a country of immigrants. (...who have trouble accepting each wave of immigrants... )
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
Last week, I tried humour. She was going on about some Eastern European who had been found guilty of shoplifting and I said *tsk, coming over here, taking jobs from Decent British Shoplifters*. Didn't work. Won't answer any direct or indirect challenge. Don't think I have enough *evidence* to go to the D&E person but it's really getting on my tits.
Also thinks she's a *cut above* the rest of her colleagues and/or the claimants because she's doing an OU degree in Humanities & Classics.
Any ideas?
English criminals are a cut above the criminals of other nations. It's because of their breeding and their Oxford degrees.
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MSHB: Member of the Shire Hobbit Brigade
Posts: 1522 | From: Dharawal Country | Registered: Mar 2005
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
Whenever someone says something racist in my presence I stop and ask myself, "what has made this person think it is okay to talk like this to me or in my company?" It is a great way to self examine and explore what has created a scenario where someone would assume this is okay with you.
As for the response I go with Maya Angelou and say, " it's not okay to talk like that to me I won't be party to it".
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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Steve H
Shipmate
# 17102
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Ha. One of my son's friends was texting him increasingly off-colour jokes. The latest was about Jews. I raised an eyebrow and suggested he texted back "You do know my dad's Jewish, don't you?"
The poor kid hasn't stopped apologising since. Lesson learnt, hopefully...
I learned not to tell even mildly racist jokes when I was in my early 20s. I started telling an Irish joke (based on the stereotype that the Irish are stupid - other countries have the same jokes about their neighbours), and trailed off to an embarrassed silence half-way through when I realised that all three of the work-colleagues I was telling it to were Irish.
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Hold to Christ, and for the rest, be totally uncommitted.
Herbert Butterfield.
Posts: 439 | From: Hemel Hempstead, Herts | Registered: May 2012
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
Last week, I tried humour. She was going on about some Eastern European who had been found guilty of shoplifting and I said *tsk, coming over here, taking jobs from Decent British Shoplifters*. Didn't work. Won't answer any direct or indirect challenge. Don't think I have enough *evidence* to go to the D&E person but it's really getting on my tits.
Also thinks she's a *cut above* the rest of her colleagues and/or the claimants because she's doing an OU degree in Humanities & Classics.
Any ideas?
English criminals are a cut above the criminals of other nations. It's because of their breeding and their Oxford degrees.
Have you ever read Decline Of The English Murder? It's hard to tell at times if Orwell is just describing public reaction to old-style English vs. new-style "foreign" murders, or if he really does think that there was something superior about quaint old gentlemen drowning their wives in the bathtub, as opposed to American soldiers and their "Americanized" English girlfriends going on thrill-kill sprees.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
I was in the Air Force during the Soviet occupation of Poland in response to the Solidarity movement.
At the time we had a commander who was Polish. His first order after taking command was there would no longer be any polish jokes under his command.
Then I heard a good one I could not resist telling him: At the time of the occupation a Western news reporter asked a Polish man on the street what he wished for his country. The Pole responded: "I wish China would invade us." The reporter asked, "Now why would you want that to happen?" The man replied: "Because they would have to go through Russia twice."
The commander couldn't help but laugh at the joke.
But to the question: Yes, this should be reported. Though I think I would do it in a slightly different way. I would go along the lines of Jesus recommendation: If someone causes offence, go to them privately and voice your concerns. If that does not work, have a co-worker go with you to share the concerns. (Sometimes if more than one worker voices the concern the person will listen.) And if that still does not work, take it to the immediate supervisor before the manager. Have to follow the chain of command, you know.
At each step of the way document what your worker is saying, and what you have done in response, because if you don't it will likely come back to bite you--bureaucracies do not like whistle blowers.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Steve H
Shipmate
# 17102
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Posted
I'd love to know the identity of the murder Orwell refuses to name.
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Hold to Christ, and for the rest, be totally uncommitted.
Herbert Butterfield.
Posts: 439 | From: Hemel Hempstead, Herts | Registered: May 2012
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Steve H
Shipmate
# 17102
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
I'd love to know the identity of the murder Orwell refuses to name.
Were it not for the annoying fact that they took place too late, it could be John Bodkin Adams, who was acquitted, though he was probably guilty, and who successfully sued a number of absent-minded journalists who described him as a murderer after his acquittal. All in all, the case is a classic of the type described by Orwell - an intensely respectable man of the professional classes poisoning his elderly patients to get legacies left by them to him.
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Hold to Christ, and for the rest, be totally uncommitted.
Herbert Butterfield.
Posts: 439 | From: Hemel Hempstead, Herts | Registered: May 2012
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
It's hard to tell at times if Orwell is just describing public reaction to old-style English vs. new-style "foreign" murders, or if he really does think that there was something superior about quaint old gentlemen drowning their wives in the bathtub, as opposed to American soldiers and their "Americanized" English girlfriends going on thrill-kill sprees.
Perhaps a more poorly written "Modest Proposal"?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
English criminals are a cut above the criminals of other nations. It's because of their breeding and their Oxford degrees.
MSHB, OU in the context used by Jahlove almost certainly means Open University.
Jahlove, you should not have to put up with this kind of behaviour. Here's a third vote for the long ranger's proposal.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
Keep it simple: Since this colleague of yours is apparently too dimwitted to take ironic remarks, why don't you just get up next time and tell her in her face that you just cannot stand her bl**dy racist comments and that you're in a good mind to report her?
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
'I know once you've gained your degree you are going on to higher things, leaving us peons to labour on in the mines. Just remember, though - you could meet us again on the way down'.
I suspect her attitudes may be tied in to her aspirations; she sees herself as escaping to a better life, and denigrating the 'failures' who claim benefit emphasises her difference, her one-day-to-be-evident superiority. However, she needs to know that one mark of the professional is that they are just that, able to maintain an appropriate level of behaviour to whoever they deal with.
Where does she see herself working in the future? Can you say: 'Not only is that an inappropriate and offensive thing to say here, but that kind of thing is not going to go down any better at X'?
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Have you ever read Decline Of The English Murder? It's hard to tell at times if Orwell is just describing public reaction to old-style English vs. new-style "foreign" murders, or if he really does think that there was something superior about quaint old gentlemen drowning their wives in the bathtub, as opposed to American soldiers and their "Americanized" English girlfriends going on thrill-kill sprees.
I think it's a very accurate perception of what made for good Sunday-afternoon reading. For the typical News of the World reader this was a murder with certain dramatic elements needed in order for it to be a satisfying read - like a novel.
The one he doesn't mention is probably the Greenwood case.
[ 26. May 2012, 10:06: Message edited by: justlooking ]
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I agree with Think˛. The key line, even in talking to a "humane" manager - and I appreciate there's no guarantee you have one of those - is "it is is not in the interests of our organisation that her prejudiced bad-mouthing comes to the attention of anyone outside".
Any manager might fall prone to the temptation to say "aren't you making too much of this". After all that frees the manager from an obligation to do something. But ignoring an alert from a staff member doesn't look too good if the ignoring backfires.
If you've got a half-way decent local union rep, it would probably also be wise to have a word/send an email/text to the rep to let them know the issue and what you've done about it - or are proposing to do about it. Good union reps know how to sit on that sort of information and await developments, recognising that your actions might also backfire - for you. It's not always fair at work. You can become a threat to a manager who ignores a warning which turns out to be wise. Cover up is always a threat with certain kinds of managers.
Create some record, plus independent verification of your actions, and the reasons for them. Always good to have a log, and a witness on your side.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290
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Posted
Some excellent comments & suggestions here - thanks. Particularly Albertus re harrassment under the Equality Act - tho' that's my concern too - do *I* have grounds to take offence when I do not share the ethnicity of those being denigrated. I haven't heard her diss any claimant directly but it just creates a kind of *grubby* atmosphere as someone has said *what makes you think it's OK to spew this crap?* And if no-one does anything it makes it look like silence condones it.
Firenze, yes but she's only a few years off retirement age (the degree thing is just a pasttime) so it's unlikely she's looking for further and better things.
Think I may raise it at my next Appraisal 1-2-1 and/or Union Rep/D & E person.
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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain
Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
As others said talk to Union rep or elected officers. They are more likely than anyone else actually in your office to have come across similar cases before, and so they ought to know who to go to next and what the likely outcome is.
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
... the case is a classic of the type described by Orwell - an intensely respectable man of the professional classes poisoning his elderly patients to get legacies left by them to him.
Had Orwell lived to hear of Harold Shipman he might have changed his mind. The worst mass-murderer in British history was "an intensely respectable man of the professional classes poisoning his elderly patients", but not to get money. Apparently he did it because he liked killing old women. (He did steal money in the end but it was when the police were already investigating him)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Squibs
Shipmate
# 14408
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Posted
Perhaps the suggestion has already been made but I would think keeping a journal of examples of her behaviour (noting the content, date and time) would be wise. Protect yourself before you make any moves.
Posts: 1124 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: Dec 2008
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
I like the idea of a journal too...in addition to CYA, it also simply gives you specific examples of the kind of behavior going on.
Just out of curiosity (I didn't notice this discussed before) -- is diversity/proper boundaries training a part of your agency's in-house education for employees? It was when I worked for a quasi-governmental non-profit. If you have had such training, how did this individual behave during the class?
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by art dunce:
Whenever someone says something racist in my presence I stop and ask myself, "what has made this person think it is okay to talk like this to me or in my company?" It is a great way to self examine and explore what has created a scenario where someone would assume this is okay with you.
As for the response I go with Maya Angelou and say, " it's not okay to talk like that to me I won't be party to it".
I agree with this. Hoping she picks up on hints and attempts at humour hasn't worked so why not simply tell the woman you don't share her prejudice and don't want to hear racist comments.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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anne
Shipmate
# 73
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Posted
Absolutely keep a journal - in a similar work environment I emailed myself with a short note of date/time, the event and anyone else who was present. Stick the email in a password protected folder. Should you ever require it, the emails own date stamp will help to establish any pattern. This will depend on your organisation's email set-up and policies of course.
You really don't have to put up with this, you know.
Anne
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‘I would have given the Church my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them. She did not know what to do with them. She told me to go back and do crochet' Florence Nightingale
Posts: 338 | From: Devon | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Just to add, it's what I meant by "a log". Essentially the idea was to create a record of significant events/incidents which illustrate the concerned, by recording them on the day they happened. However "artificial" that may feel.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
Yes, we have Diversity & Equality Procedures but they can only be applied (AFAIK) if you hear someone dissing a claimant to their face (or over the phone) in such terms.
If that is really true of your procedures, it implies they are just a box ticking exercise and do not do their job.
Isn't there a more fundamental issue than this? If the Benefits Agency is supposed to supplying its services equally and fairly to all those who are entitled or not entitled to receive benefits, is it enough that people there should not actually insult claimants in their presence? Isn't there something wrong with a member of staff who might be in a position to exercise any sort of discretion at all - even if it's only how quickly people are seen - showing that she (or he) is prejudiced against some of them. It leads to a natural assumption that should concern any manager, that her prejudices will be influencing the way she does her job, irrespective of whether she voices them when claimants are present.
If you're going to do something about it, though, I think you're obliged to try and do so in a way that gradually induces her to change without landing her in it. e.g. start by making comments in response to hers that should make her feel ashamed. The shoplifter one is brilliant. Or if you have team meetings, perhaps you could air for general discussion issues about 'how we really ought to feel towards claimants'.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
I have to wonder how she would feel if she found herdelf in a minority position. Happen to me when I was 25 and I attended the Anglican Catherdhal in Prince Rupert BC Canada. The congregation was maybe 75% native and 25 % white . Made me think. Though I can rem,ember tyhe last time I was in the UK and was out with my grandmother, mum & sister and we passed a women with an coloured child , the USAF had been in area . Well Granniie uttered the N word bring a utterance from my sister of "GRANDMA" ncause even at 4 my sister knew should either of us use THAT word we'd be in trouble big time. Were we angels ? No I grew up in a mixed English French part of Montreal so I picked up several French phrases without realizing what I was saying. This led to me getting a severe lecture about th meaning of words . And as for anti semetic remarks that
I truely detest maybe more after I had read the accounts of the Holocaust.
So co worker grow up and retire with some sense of deency. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif) ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
It's hard to tell at times if Orwell is just describing public reaction to old-style English vs. new-style "foreign" murders, or if he really does think that there was something superior about quaint old gentlemen drowning their wives in the bathtub, as opposed to American soldiers and their "Americanized" English girlfriends going on thrill-kill sprees.
Perhaps a more poorly written "Modest Proposal"?
I don't think it's satire in that way, ie. in the sense of saying the precise opposite of what you mean. Orwell was probably sincere in thinking that English culture had been on the decline as a result of the war and Americanization, but was flippantly using a rather provocative example(murder) to make his point.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
it's really getting on my tits.
From what you say she's ignorant, dim, insensitive, stuck-up and determined to give those around her the benefit (no pun intended) of her small-minded worldview.
Welcome to the human race...
Seems that loving your neighbour is a tall order in your circumstances.
If you want sympathy, you've got it. You've earned a medal. You won't get one. That's life.
But if you're asking the question "should I use the fact that some of what she says may be technically illegal to strike back at this pain in the wherever?" then it's pretty obvious that the answer is no.
If you get to the point where you can't stand it any more and need to do something for the preservation of your own sanity, so be it. Apply for a transfer to another section. Poison her coffee. Whatever.
Short of that point, anything you do should be for her good.
Don't talk yourself into making trouble for her under the pretence that this is somehow for the greater good if what is in your heart is a desire to be free from her obnoxious chatter.
Just my tuppence worth - take it or leave it.
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Racism isn't 'technically illegal', it's illegal, for very good reasons. It's very hurtful to others, it spreads hatred, and it can lead to violence. Hence, the law in its wisdom has outlawed it.
I'm not sure why I should be prepared to put up with such illegal actions then.
As others have said, keep a diary of the incidents, consult your union, warn her that you will not tolerate it, and if the warning goes unheeded, report her, provided that you are prepared to accept what will follow.
If you want a quiet life, then I guess you will have to find another way.
I am not prepared to be collusive of such wrong-doing.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
I didn't interpret the OP as a complaint re: how bad Jahlove's working conditions are, although there may be some of that. I heard it as a concern re: the racism for the actual effect of the racism. As was noted, there is a reason why such displays of racism are illegal. It sounds very much like the racist colleague is in a position where she is supposed to be helping vulnerable people. I'm in the US, so don't know a lot about what the job entails, but I imagine there is, as with most jobs, at least some degree of the job where some elements of bias might come in. Even if it's just processing the claims of "good upstanding Brits" just a bit quicker than those of "dirty foreigners" or whatever. That has an impact-- especially in these days when so many live paycheck to paycheck.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
...do *I* have grounds to take offence when I do not share the ethnicity of those being denigrated.
I don't think its up to your employers to decide which of your neighbours and friends and clients your workmates can insult without offending you.
I mean, if somebody insults my mother will I be offended? Yes I will, deeply, instantly, and possibly violently. If they used the same insult about someone I have never met or even heard of who lives on the opposite side of the world will I be personally offended? Possibly not. There's a range of response between those two extreme cases. Do my bosses get to decide how far away from me a person has to be before I have a right to feel bad when someone insults them?
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
Yes, we have Diversity & Equality Procedures but they can only be applied (AFAIK) if you hear someone dissing a claimant to their face (or over the phone) in such terms.
If that is really true of your procedures, it implies they are just a box ticking exercise and do not do their job.
If that is the current situation in the Civil Service then they have moved backwards since I worked for them nearly thirty years ago. Or maybe its just what your boss thinks the rules are, in which case they might be in for a surprise.
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Racism isn't 'technically illegal', it's illegal, for very good reasons.
Not in England it isn't. Its been illegal to "incite or stir up" "racial hatred" since the 1980s. Religious hatred was added to that recently. But that's not quite the same thing as racism.
IANAL but I would guess that law is pretty irrelevant to whats being talked about here. The employers rules about conduct in the workplace are likely to be much more important.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
Secretly record it. Take it to the press. That'd get your bosses to take it seriously.
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
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Posted
As other people have already said, I definitely would speak to her directly first, and preferably in private.
I had to deal with something similar a few years ago. Someone I shared an office with continually made remarks I found very, very offensive (the remarks were not directed at me). Eventually we happened to be alone in the office when this happened. I turned round to face her and said, "Excuse me, X, would you mind not saying that any more, because I find it really offensive." She was surprised and defensive and tried to side-track me into a dicussion about it. I said, "It's not my business why you are saying that, and I'm not concerned with what you think, but you are behaving in a way I find offensive and I would like you to change your behaviour, please, and not do it any more".
And she never did it again while I was there.
I really don't think she had any idea that she was being offensive until I spoke to her. Maybe your colleague is the same? If all her family and friends talk like that, maybe she has never thought that it might cause offense?
I don't think we can change people's attitudes but we all have a right not to have to put up with behaviour which upsets us. Whether it's racist comments or public nose-picking. Especially when it's at our place of work and we can't just walk away. So start by just asking her not to do it, being completely serious and also completely explicit about what it is you don't want her to do. It might be all that's needed.
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The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
Posts: 978 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
I agree with Think2. Discreetly bringing this to the attention of management, with the proviso that she's likely to slip up in front of clients and it will cause a world of public embarassment to go with the hostile work environment that she is already creating, is IMO the way to do this.
She sounds like someone who would retaliate against you, so I'm not sure I'd recommend the direct approach.
If you can find some polite but firm way to push back (obviously the humorous approach, which you have used, didn't work), by all means do so.
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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
{{{{{Jah}}}}}
Please be careful. Yes, your co-worker's attitude is abysmal...but I'm not sure that telling on her (which is the way it might be perceived) will do any good, nor be safe for you.
Office politics can be strange things; and sometimes it's the good employee who gets in trouble, rather than the bad one.
FWIW.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
Secretly record it. Take it to the press. That'd get your bosses to take it seriously.
Definitely not. Don't ever get involved with the press if you can help it.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
Secretly record it. Take it to the press. That'd get your bosses to take it seriously.
Definitely not. Don't ever get involved with the press if you can help it.
If management and the union won't take it up, go to elected representatives. If they won't, then go to the press. As it's public sector they will be desperate to keep it out of the media.
The press has it's place but it helps to do things in line with the civil service code while all parties treat it seriously.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
Secretly record it. Take it to the press. That'd get your bosses to take it seriously.
Definitely not. Don't ever get involved with the press if you can help it.
I agree. Even if you sent it to something like WikiLeaks (if they could actually be bothered publishing it) it would not be possible to avoid it being traced back to you.
I'm not at all clued in on British law regarding privacy and making recordings, but you could come out even worse than the other person just for making the the recording and leaking it. The press would only be interested in you as long as they could sell some papers from it, after which you would be out of a job and left with a history that would make you completely unemployable.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Be careful about getting management involved. When I worked in the public sector in the UK in the mid-1990s the general practice when dealing with whistleblowers was to 'shoot the messenger' so you usually made complaints through the union, or picked one of the managers who had an established reputation for not being a bastard.
The management knew that victimizing whistleblowers was a discriminatory practice, so they would usually hide their hand well. So shooting the messenger generally took subtle forms such as being passed over for promotion, or being high on the list when it came time to make redundancies. In that respect at least I find the full-time ministry a much less hostile environment.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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