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In clips, he is heard telling an audience: "And the Holy Spirit spoke to me, the gift of faith came on me. He said, 'kick her in the face with your biker boot'. I inched closer and I went like this – bam! And just as my boot made contact with her nose, she fell under the power of God."

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[*Wipes away tears]

I laughed so hard when I read this - must be the gift of Holy Spirit too.

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
I think it's unfortunate all round.

I'm also not sure I'm comfortable with governments excluding visitors on the grounds of their religious beliefs, however lunatic they may be.

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Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
surely the test should be 'Would his behaviour in the past constitute an offence under British law'.

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We are terribly disappointed and sorry to tell you all that the Home Office has refused entry to the UK to Todd Bentley, citing the reason being his former criminal conviction and his unorthodox method of ministering. The Home Secretary was responsible for the final decision, and tells us that the decision cannot be appealed.

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Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
But the whole point of a liberal society is that we must allow the free exchange of ideas; there must be a VERY good reason for doing otherwise; surely the test should be 'Would his behaviour in the past constitute an offence under British law'.

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Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Frankly, I'm not going to lose any sleep over this. There's no danger of lunatic religious beliefs being excluded as long as Benny Hinn and Ken Ham are regular visitors to these shores, so I can't get worked up about a guy being turned away because he wants to come here and hit sick people.

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Finally we agree on something Gumby me ol' mucker!

I don't know much about Ken Ham, but Benny Hinn is well dodgy!

(don't mention the war.. I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it...)

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Finally we agree on something Gumby me ol' mucker!

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Even a stopped clock is right occasionally.

I'll leave the question of which of us is the stopped clock as an exercise for the reader.

You'd like Ken Ham. He's full of fascinating gems, some of which go well beyond the usual creationist schtick. There's a brilliant bit on his AiG website where a 10yo asks him how he reconciles his belief about the age of the universe with the millions of years the light's had to travel to get here from distant stars.

His answer was that this poor, confused boy had got muddled up by fancy science talk:

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When we hear the term light-year, we need to realize it is not a measure of time but a measure of distance, telling us how far away something is. Distant stars and galaxies might be millions of light-years away, but that doesn’t mean that it took millions of years for the light to get here, it just means it is really far away!

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Um, Okay.

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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman

A letter to my son about death

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Originally posted by seasick:
I'm entirely happy to exclude someone who intends to assault people in the name of religion. After all, if kicking someone in the face (whether it was God's idea or not) isn't assault, what is it?

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Originally posted by Alogon:
Can't you see, about six inches down the road in front of you, what a double-edged sword it is to let some bureaucrat in the government define "the public good" and limit your freedom of assocation accordingly?

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Originally posted by Alogon:
I feel that we in America owe all our love of freedom and due process to our British heritage. It is disappointing and distressing to see the Mother Country now throwing it all away with even greater enthusiasm than we are doing so ourselves. Can't you see, about six inches down the road in front of you, what a double-edged sword it is to let some bureaucrat in the government define "the public good" and limit your freedom of assocation accordingly?

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Originally posted by daronmedway:
I'd be interested to know if the Home Office consulted anyone in the House of Bishops or other denominational representatives before making its final decision.

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Originally posted by Mark Betts:

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Originally posted by Alogon:
I feel that we in America owe all our love of freedom and due process to our British heritage. It is disappointing and distressing to see the Mother Country now throwing it all away with even greater enthusiasm than we are doing so ourselves. Can't you see, about six inches down the road in front of you, what a double-edged sword it is to let some bureaucrat in the government define "the public good" and limit your freedom of assocation accordingly?

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I can see that Alogon. In fact, despite what I have said, it has been in the back of my mind - who else will our nanny-state government decide is not "in the public good" in months or years to come?

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Is this the same Mark Betts who, over on two other threads, is defending the right of the Russian government to lock people up for years for offensive religious speech?

Have you had a sudden conversion experience and turned in to a libertarian?



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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Originally posted by Alogon:
I feel that we in America owe all our love of freedom and due process to our British heritage. It is disappointing and distressing to see the Mother Country now throwing it all away with even greater enthusiasm than we are doing so ourselves. Can't you see, about six inches down the road in front of you, what a double-edged sword it is to let some bureaucrat in the government define "the public good" and limit your freedom of association accordingly?

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Originally posted by Alogon:
It seems to me that if you seek the ministry of Todd Bentley, knowing his reputation, you have effectively done exactly that.

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Originally posted by Enoch:
Alogon, I'd accept this criticism from some directions, but doesn't your country refuse entry to anyone with the most minor conviction for use of cannabis, however young they were and however long ago?

Or has this been moderated?

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Originally posted by Stick Monitor:
In addition, the CofE (and other churches) should be doing a better job, day-to-day, of walking alongside the sick and suffering, to steer them away from Charlatans like Bentley.

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Originally posted by Alogon:
I feel that we in America owe all our love of freedom and due process to our British heritage. It is disappointing and distressing to see the Mother Country now throwing it all away with even greater enthusiasm than we are doing so ourselves. Can't you see, about six inches down the road in front of you, what a double-edged sword it is to let some bureaucrat in the government define "the public good" and limit your freedom of assocation accordingly?

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Dr Michael Nazir-Ali, the former Bishop of Rochester who now runs a church education charity, said: ‘I think the Home Secretary should make enquiries and see if there is any threat to public order. If the police have any indication that violence will be used against people who may be ill or vulnerable, it will be for her to decide if police should attend.’

Peter May, a prominent Christian GP who served for 25 years on the Church of England’s ruling General Synod, and has investigated spurious faith healers for more than 20 years, said: ‘I’m concerned by Todd Bentley’s methods because a physical injury on any sick person could be very serious.

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Originally posted by Enoch:
Alogon, I'd accept this criticism from some directions, but doesn't your country refuse entry to anyone with the most minor conviction for use of cannabis, however young they were and however long ago?

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Originally posted by Alogon:
In this case, the stated pretext is "public good." My argument is that this is dangerously vague and insultingly paternalistic even as a pretext, let alone the real reason. How much difference does it make?

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Originally posted by Edward Green:
Although spent convictions cannot I believe be used to refuse someone entry to the UK I am unsure about sexual offences.

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Originally posted by Mark Betts:

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Originally posted by daronmedway:
I'd be interested to know if the Home Office consulted anyone in the House of Bishops or other denominational representatives before making its final decision.

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I don't think Todd Bentley Ministries has a House of Bishops.

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Originally posted by daronmedway:
I was wondering if the Home Office in the UK is in the habit of consulting UK church leaders when it is considering whether to ban someone who purports to be a Christian evangelist/healer.

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Originally posted by Alogon:
There may be other reasons to justify Bentley's banning, but as long as they remain unstated, we have no way to discuss them.

In this case, the stated pretext is "public good."

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As far as I can see on the Home Office's website there are no reasons given, in fact there is no statement to the effect that he has been banned. Indeed if you put "Todd Bentley" into the search engine nothing comes up at all. Therefore we have no basis on which to discuss anything to do with this "case" apart from pure speculation.

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Originally posted by Doublethink:
You don't think a sexual offense conviction against a 7 year old child would be likely to be relevant then ?

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Originally posted by Doublethink:
I believe it is a matter of record, that he does not dispute.

It is relevant particularly to his ministry because in the UK a convicted sex offender would not be legally permitted to work with children or vulnerable adults - and people with terminal illness would be considered vulnerable. In other words he would not pass an enhanced CRB check for any position that required one - and in most churches that would include people in leadership positions.

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