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Source: (consider it) Thread: Clergy Salary Expectations
Try
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quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik in the Mark Driscoll thread:
Re Driscoll's pay: Just an observation that, here in Mainlineland, pastors' salaries are generally based on a denominational standard that takes into account things like educational level, experience and income level of the area where a congregation is located. In the ELCA the standard is based on the average incomes of high school principals in a community -- other professionals with comparable educational credentials and expectations of experience.

I think that's a fair salary expectation. Unfortunately, in churches with no oversight/accountability from a larger church body, congregations are free to lavish ridiculous and unhealthy amounts of money and other perks on pastors, and unscrupulous pastors have the freedom to make that an expectation.

I agree with Lutheran Chick that a denominational minimum salary can be an important protection for clergy in terms of them recieving appropriate pay for their work. But I recently learned that in my area of Ohio two different denominations with essentially identical educational requirements have minimum full-time salaries that are $30,000 apart. The denomination on the low end starts at $30,000 or so per year, equivalent to a senior worker at a non-union factory. The denomination on the higher end sets the minimum salary for full-time ministers at $60K a year, much closer to LC's high-school principal. This probably means that ministers in the second church pay off their student loans much faster, and are living a lifestyle closer to that of a person with equivalent education in a secular field. Howsoever, the lower denomination, gaurentees every ordained minister a full time ministry, and provides every minister with a parsonage or housing allowance. Many ministers in the higher denomination find themselves taking first calls that are only theoretically part-time. OTOH, the higher denomination has historically had higher-class members than the lower denomination. Does this have anything to do with the difference? Should it? Is 30k, 60k, or something in between a fair salary for a new seminary trained pastor with 7 years of educational debit?

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Haydee
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In what way is it 'unfair'?

When people have the resources (including education) to choose thier career then they must also decide how much of a factor remuneration levels are in their decision. If you feel called to ministry, and in one denomination rather than another, then presumably salary levels are not the basis of your decision - which is fine, but then don't look for salary rewards.

When I went into the NGO sector it was knowing that my earnings would be significantly less than those in the private sector, and without the benefits offered by the public sector. In fact, not only do I earn significantly less than I could if I'd stayed in the UK, but as a foreigner in South Africa I earn less than South Africans who are less qualified than me (for work permit and 'transformation' reasons). But I've chosen to be here, and could leave any time I like. What is unfair about that?

What is unfair are the pay and conditions for those at the bottom of the heap, whose choice is 'accept peanuts or be unemployed and have nothing'.

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Ondergard
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I never went to University, and therefore do not have a degree (I didn't do a graduate course when training for the ministry) although I am told by those who ought to know (including a friend who is rather prominent Oxford Don) that I am more than capable of taking a degree if I could be bothered to put my mind to it... I can't, but that's another story.

I happen to have kept every single P60 I have been issued since I got married in 1979 - which in effect means all but four of the P60's I have ever had since leaving school at eighteen - so I know exactly how much I earned in the Tax Year before I was accepted as a candidate for the Methodist Ministry.

I went to College in 1986. Using a very useful website - "Measuring Worth" - I discover that according to two of the indexes used, only last year did I catch up with the salary level I had achieved whilst working in London, and according to one index I still lag behind, twenty six years later. I don't care!

I don't care, not just for theological reasons, but because I'm just glad to be given the privilege of serving the people of God, and because I am so glad that ALL Methodist Ministers, wherever they serve in Circuit, get the same stipend. Some have an extra allowance by dint of the position they hold - Chairs of District, College Principals, and Superintendents get modest supplements - but none of us, when thinking of stationing, have to think, "How much does this one offer? Should I go to Chippenham for £30,000 or Chingford for £50,000?" because wherever we go we get the same.

It isn't a career, at least not for most of us, it's a calling. If I 'd wanted a career, I'd have stayed at London Regional Transport.

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Enoch
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I don't know how many times over the years I have been told that the clergy get paid a stipend so as to enable them to do their work without having to go out and earn a living like the rest of us - i.e. it is to free them up to minister. It is not supposed to be a reward that is a measure of either the quality of their ministry or the personal quality of their lives.

I think that is also what Ondergard is saying, and I agree with it.

We should expect to have to support our clergy well enough for them to be able to do this without having to worry whether their families will be adequately fed, clothed, schooled and provided for. We should not expect them to be paupers on our behalf. But nor should they be preaching and pastoring so as to get better goodies into their individual pots. Ministry is not a business.

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Tubbs

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If I’ve understood Rev T properly, the Baptist Union in the UK sets out a minimum stipend for clergy, plus things the church is expected to be responsible for such as pension contributions etc. Accommodation is either provided or a housing allowance paid. (A quick rummage around Findaproperty shows in our area, the rental value of our house is a whopping £1,333 a month [Eek!] ). On top of that, there are things that the church traditionally provides such as a book allowance etc that the two of them negotiate between themselves. [ETA: Whether or not the minmium stipend is enough is another question entirely! One of the ministerial journals did a survey and the responses were very mixed!]

Depending on how the church is set up, they may offer more than the minimum stipend, plus extra bits and bobs such as an annual gift service where the clergy receive that week’s collection etc. Any church that gets a Home Mission grant from the BU – the central fund that helps pay towards the salary of ministers for smaller churches - isn’t allowed to pay anything over and above the BUGB rate.

The thing is, no one becomes a minister for the money, perks, glory or career path … (And, as we’re Baptist, or for the threads!). Rev T applied for – and was put forward for – posts on the basis that he felt there was something there worth exploring, not because one paid better than the other.

I’m not sure that most people would choose one denomination over another because one pays more either … Most people apply to be minsters at the denomination they attend. I’ve only come across one person who said that if the Baptists turned them down, they’d try the Anglicans. And that was because they felt the call so strongly that they had to keep trying.

Tubbs

[ 10. February 2012, 11:55: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I don't know how many times over the years I have been told that the clergy get paid a stipend so as to enable them to do their work without having to go out and earn a living like the rest of us - i.e. it is to free them up to minister. It is not supposed to be a reward that is a measure of either the quality of their ministry or the personal quality of their lives.

Then why do bishops get paid more than priests?

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Albertus
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Exactly. They shouldn't be. Some bishops do accept only an incumbent's stipend- I think for example the late +Richard Rutt of Leicester was one such- but they are unfortunately exceptions.

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Baptist Trainfan
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I don't know if this is still the case, but back in the 1970s the Church of Scotland Directory of churches publicly published the stipend/salary paid to every Minister. The disparities were interesting, to say the least.

I have no idea how the CofS works (or worked then): are stipends set nationally, by individual congregations, or by any "patrons" which a congregation may or may not have?

In my case, working as a Baptist within a Baptist/URC church, my stipend follows the URC pattern but some of the details of expenses follow the Baptist.

It isn't really possible to compare the "headline" rate of stipends between denominations, as some pay higher stipends but provide less in way of expenses/accomodation etc. - or the other way round. IMO Anglican stipends are generally higher than those given to traditional nonconformists - I'm not of course thinking of independent magachurches.

PS One thing which I think is important in all this concerns housing provision for retirement - if ministers inherit property or legacies from their family they may be in a much better situation than others who are not only housed by their denomination but may have to pay rent for the privilege. Mind you non-clergy face similar disparities as well!

[ 10. February 2012, 12:01: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Trisagion
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Stipends for clergy in the Catholic Church in Britain are fixed on a diocese by diocese basis. Other than Westminster (which has a voluntary pooling arrangement), the usual arrangement is that priests get to keep Mass stipends and Stole fees (offerings made for Baptisms, Weddings and Funerals), the Christmas and Easter collections and get an allowance for household expenses (food, cleaning costs etc). Housing is supplied and in many dioceses there is, in addition, a diocesan stipend - in my own it amounts to £326 per month. The Bishop is remunerated on the same basis.

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Cottontail

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I don't know if this is still the case, but back in the 1970s the Church of Scotland Directory of churches publicly published the stipend/salary paid to every Minister. The disparities were interesting, to say the least.

I have no idea how the CofS works (or worked then): are stipends set nationally, by individual congregations, or by any "patrons" which a congregation may or may not have?

Stipends are set nationally, and work on a 10-point sliding scale for the first 10 years of ministry, at which point the stipend freezes. The scale starts at just over £23,000 and goes up to around £29,500. (I think these figures are about right - I am a bit out of the loop these days. I also think the basic stipend hasn't changed since around 2003, though someone may be able to correct me on that.)

Up until 2006, congregations could decide to pay up to 15% more to their minister, but this was scrapped for obvious reasons. Stipends are administered centrally, so that individual congregations or wealthy benefactors have no say in the matter.

Our deacons, however, are paid about half that. With no manse flung in either. This is not to our credit.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
Stipends for clergy in the Catholic Church in Britain are fixed on a diocese by diocese basis. Other than Westminster (which has a voluntary pooling arrangement), the usual arrangement is that priests get to keep Mass stipends and Stole fees (offerings made for Baptisms, Weddings and Funerals), the Christmas and Easter collections and get an allowance for household expenses (food, cleaning costs etc). Housing is supplied and in many dioceses there is, in addition, a diocesan stipend - in my own it amounts to £326 per month. The Bishop is remunerated on the same basis.

Does that mean that a priest's income is likely to vary a great deal according to the socio-economic status of the parish? In the C of E, poor inner-city parishes attract hardly any weddings and probably fewer baptisms than (e.g.) a middle-class parish with a church school. Christmas and Easter collections might also vary a great deal.
C of E dioceses collect all the individual clergy fees, and a parish share, and out of this pay a standard stipend. Is that the system that you imply happens in Westminster diocese?

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
If I’ve understood Rev T properly, the Baptist Union in the UK sets out a minimum stipend for clergy, plus things the church is expected to be responsible for such as pension contributions etc. Accommodation is either provided or a housing allowance paid.

BUGB minimum stipend is £20000 for 2012. Housing allowance is £6000. Pension is 8% minister, 16% church.

Regional Ministers are usually stipend + c. 25%

Soem churches pay more (they are at liberty to do so). Allegedly the highest paid minister in a church in the BUGB is on about £50K - it's not where most people might think!

You certainly don't go in for it for the money: I'm remunerated now what I was paid in 1985 in other employment. On the basic stipend with no other income a minister can claim benefit.

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Baptist Trainfan
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Technically that's not quite right. The BUGB "Manse Allowance" is a notional figure added on paper to stipends to increase pension contributions and benefits. Any actual figure paid can be more (or less) to suit local circumstances. For instance, no one could rent a flat in London for £6000 p.a., while it is possible in our neck of the woods.

In any case, it would be up to the church to do the renting, I think, not the Pastor. And most Pastors do not live in rented accomodation anyway - although some Youth Workers or Pastoral Assistants do.

Of course there is also the issue of a Minister living in their own house with the church making a contribution to expenses. In that case the £6k Allowance might apply - I don't know as I've never been in that situation!

By the way, the church pays some of the pension contributions (about 2/3rds) and the Minister pays the rest.

[ 10. February 2012, 13:52: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Technically that's not quite right. The BUGB "Manse Allowance" is a notional figure added on paper to stipends to increase pension contributions and benefits. Any actual figure paid can be more (or less) to suit local circumstances. For instance, no one could rent a flat in London for £6000 p.a., while it is possible in our neck of the woods.

In any case, it would be up to the church to do the renting, I think, not the Pastor. And most Pastors do not live in rented accomodation anyway - although some Youth Workers or Pastoral Assistants do.

Of course there is also the issue of a Minister living in their own house with the church making a contribution to expenses. In that case the £6k Allowance might apply - I don't know as I've never been in that situation!

By the way, the church pays some of the pension contributions (about 2/3rds) and the Minister pays the rest.

Yes you're right - it is a "notional" allowance for those living in a manse. Churches can pay more (but not less) if a house is rented (or if a minister lives in his own home) but in that case it is all taxable (on the notional allowance it isn't and forms part of the pension calculation).

Churches pay council tax and water rates on a manse this is tax free but any other bills they may pay will form a taxable benefit in kind. Soem expenses in the post are payable but not all. Soem allowances can be given tax free for heating/lighting those parts of the manse used exclusively for church business (eg an office like mine!).

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Freddy
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Does anyone know what percentage of the clergy is part-time, simultaneously holding down a secular job?

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I don't know how many times over the years I have been told that the clergy get paid a stipend so as to enable them to do their work without having to go out and earn a living like the rest of us - i.e. it is to free them up to minister. It is not supposed to be a reward that is a measure of either the quality of their ministry or the personal quality of their lives.

Then why do bishops get paid more than priests?
The perpetuation of historical disparities is likely the reason but I imagine that there would be a good argument for a representation allowance on top of the basic stipend. A now-retired-courtesy-of-the-electorate political friend told me that his personal private life expenses had shot down by about #1,500-$2,000/month. Whatever for, I enquired, and was told that a combination of clothing expenses to be camera-ready every day was responsible for much of it (e.g., a number of suits in rotation, always pressed), as well as time-related expenses (town car or taxi over the bus, cleaner over his own housework) added up surprisingly. He did not add his hospitality costs, which were covered by a trust fund available to people in his party (a Canadian phenomenon which nobody talks about very much), but he thought that this might add up to $7,000 or $8,000 a year.

In this he was considered a moderate and another friend told me that his reluctance to spread out more possibly limited his effectiveness in the corporate and academic sector with which he was dealing.

In western societies, a diocesan bishop would reasonably fall in the same league in terms of the costs of their work as advocates and representatives.

RC clerics of my acquaintance have a situation as described by Trisagion, with a minimal stipend and expenses, supplemented by stole fees and the (perhaps a Canadian phenomemon) local clergy discount, which most businesses give here (about 10%-20%). Some diocesan clerics end up quite poor on retirement, but are able to find gigs as chaplains-for-quarters for convents, etc. Some, however, do very nicely from weddings and I have seen one or two very lush cottages in my time.

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ken
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The shocking thing about the OP is the idea of paying more for graduates. That's just plain wrong.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Tubbs

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quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Does anyone know what percentage of the clergy is part-time, simultaneously holding down a secular job?

Will depend on the church.

Spurgeons, one of the largest Baptist training colleges in the UK, has just started a course for people in secular work wanting to train as Ministers. Working out where they could be going with that isn’t exactly rocket science! OTH, that model assumes that there will be a secular job to get within travelling distance of the church that calls you.

Some of the smaller, independent evangelical places will run by on a part-time basis by someone with a secular job. My local one is run on the basis.

Thinking Anglicans published some figures in 2011:

quote:
In 2009 3,100 or 27% of all the Church of England’s diocesan licensed ministers were in self-supporting ministry (SSM), sometimes described as non-stipendiary ministry
.

The article is here.

Some of those will be people who combine church ministry with other work. All the SSMs I know of work as part of a team rather than being minister in charge. OTH, other people may know different.

Tubbs

[ 10. February 2012, 14:28: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

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Belle Ringer
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Methodist pastor here has salary $63,000, plus a nice house and large yard provided free which would easily cost $1000 a month to rent and not much less to live in if fully paid (all the rest of us have to pay for our housing, so that ought to be included in figuring salary comparisons, and we pay with after tax money), he doesn't have to do the yard work or repairs, the church does those things, plus there's a pension paid by the denomination, most jobs these days the future pension (if any) is paid for by deduction from the pay check. Plus health insurance $5000.

So he's got the equivalent of $75,000 in salary-plus-housing, plus health insurance and pension, plus free yard work and free house repairs. Plus "accountable reimbursement plan" $6,600 (I don't know what sorts of expenses he has).

Health ins at $5000, pension costs I'll call $1000 a month but that's really low, yard work and house repairs easily $5000 a year of after tax money, reimbursements, total equivalent of ~100,000 a year for a self-employed.

Plus a 3 months fully paid sabbatical last year. (I think ALL jobs should offer sabbaticals! Far as I know only academics and clergy get them.) And four weeks vacation (rare in USA) plus 2 weeks "renewal leave" (plus time off for conferences, retreats, training). And guaranteed employment until age 65.

The Episcopal clergy guy gets $30,000 salary, $23,000 pension contribution, $31,000 housing allowance (he's bought a house, this ought to pay it off in 5 years, with tax free money because clergy housing allowance is not considered income, so add another 25-33% when comparing with what a non-clergy would have to earn to get equivalent benefit). Plus about $2000 misc, so that's 86,000 plus the amount of taxes not paid on housing allowance the rest of us would have to pay = about $8000 more, total package about $94,000 equivalent to a job holder.

The school principals earn between 56k and 65k, their health ins and pension come at least partly out of their paycheck, they pay some classroom needs out of their pocket with no reimbursement.

Mainline clergy are not the highest earning people in town but definitely in the top 5%, probably top 2% for this little town, and more than a school principal.

What's fair? Heck, if they can get it, great, but mainline clergy did not sacrifice earnings to take the call. (Yes starting salary is about $40,000, but teachers start out lower than that.)

These two are probably the high end for clergy here, the smaller towns pay their clergy less, and some churches have bivocational clergy, one friend was paid $500 a month with no reimbursement for gas (he lived 30 minutes from the church), it lasted only a couple years because they wanted more and more of his time (for no more pay) and he had a job (duh!)

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Gwai
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
The shocking thing about the OP is the idea of paying more for graduates. That's just plain wrong.

I gather that you all across the pond don't tend to rack up the same kind of debt as we do getting education, but here it is an absolute necessity. If a person has a five or even six figure debt racked up from getting an education that we asked them to get, we'd damn well better pay them well enough that they can afford to pay off those loans!

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If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


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Angloid
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Well student debt is becoming a big problem here too now, thanks to our America-worshipping government. But the repayments only kick in at a certain level of income, and I don't know if the average UK ministerial salary is high enough for that. Anybody with more accurate/ up to date information?

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
The shocking thing about the OP is the idea of paying more for graduates. That's just plain wrong.

I gather that you all across the pond don't tend to rack up the same kind of debt as we do getting education, but here it is an absolute necessity.
Then you pay off their loans for them, not increase their take-home stipend.

Or even better, fund the specifically ministerial part of their education, which is what we do inthe CofE.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Trisagion
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Does that mean that a priest's income is likely to vary a great deal according to the socio-economic status of the parish? In the C of E, poor inner-city parishes attract hardly any weddings and probably fewer baptisms than (e.g.) a middle-class parish with a church school. Christmas and Easter collections might also vary a great deal.
C of E dioceses collect all the individual clergy fees, and a parish share, and out of this pay a standard stipend. Is that the system that you imply happens in Westminster diocese?

There can, indeed, be quite a variation but the factors aren't quite those you suggest. Remember that we're mostly baptising, marrying and burying " our own" rather than being the default place for the wider community. Our schools are also rather less suburban/rural destination schools. Furthermore, the working-class parishes have retained rather better than the middle-class ones the tradition of making offerings for Mass intentions. So, in my own diocese, the variation is more likely to be due to size rather than any other factor. The variation seems to be from those who have little other than the housekeeping and the diocesan stipend, at one end, to those who have twice or even three times that at the other.

In my time with the diocese, the priests have twice debated the issue and on both occasions they voted almost unanimously to keep it as it is. The most common reason I heard on both occasions was that those who are working hardest ought to receive more and that the current system did that satisfactorily!

In Westminster, the system you identify applies. I'm told that about 40% of the clergy are part of the system.

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Angloid
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Thanks Trisagion. That makes things clearer. I did think the Catholic demography was sufficiently different. Interesting point about inner-city parishioners tending to be more generous: that is our experience too (pro rata).

It's probably a matter for another thread, but I have often wondered how the Catholic 'mass stipend' system works. If no-one comes up with an offering for a particular mass, is it just cancelled or what?

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seasick

...over the edge
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Well student debt is becoming a big problem here too now, thanks to our America-worshipping government. But the repayments only kick in at a certain level of income, and I don't know if the average UK ministerial salary is high enough for that. Anybody with more accurate/ up to date information?

The rules have changed so many times over the last few years that people who were in University only a few years apart may be in quite different situations. For me, I do pay contributions back to my student loan from my stipend each month but the amount of I pay is very low.

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Gwai
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Or even better, fund the specifically ministerial part of their education, which is what we do inthe CofE.

Boy would I love to see the UMC do that, even though it would be too late for Bullfrog. However, that requires choosing your candiates before you see how they handle grad school, internships, and their first couple years of ministry. As long as the United Methodist Church guarantees a job to all ordained elders until retirement, they won't and perhaps can't do that.

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Trisagion
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Thanks Trisagion. That makes things clearer. I did think the Catholic demography was sufficiently different. Interesting point about inner-city parishioners tending to be more generous: that is our experience too (pro rata).

It's also got to do with the fact that the poorer parishes tend to be more traditional in terms of piety and devotion. It would be rare in those parishes not to have a Mass intention with stipend, whereas in the suburban parishes, the collapse of Catholic devotional life is more marked. The notion of a Mass Intention is more or less alien to the Tablet reading denizens of our more liberal middle-class parishes!

quote:
It's probably a matter for another thread, but I have often wondered how the Catholic 'mass stipend' system works. If no-one comes up with an offering for a particular mass, is it just cancelled or what?
Technically, the Mass intention is the priest's personal intention and if someone hasn't asked him to offer the Mass for a particular attention, then he is free to offer the Mass for whatever intention he chooses. In many of our older parishes, there is a very considerable number of 'Foundation Masses' to be offered every year. These are Masses for the intentions of those who left money for the establishment of parishes, parish schools and churches. Since 1967 these have been only accepted for 25 years but we have very many from the time before that, which are, in effect, perpetual Masses. In fact, the parish of St Thomas of Canterbury, Newport, IoW, which was the first public Catholic Church to be opened in England after the Second Catholic Relief Act 1791, still has Foundation Masses for Maria , since she gave money for the building. There are parishes in this diocese with over 250 Foundation Masses per year.

Masses don't get cancelled because a priest doesn't have a particular private intention. A priest is only free to accept a stipend for one Mass on any one day and so if he has other Mass intentions for other Masses ('bination' stipends) he is required to account for these to the diocesan chancellor, who will usually apply them for poor priests or the missions). Strictly, each Mass should have only one intention. On Sundays and Holy Days, the Parish Priest (Pastor) is obliged to offer one Mass pro populo, i.e. for the people of the parish.

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Try
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
The shocking thing about the OP is the idea of paying more for graduates. That's just plain wrong.

Formally speaking, whether an American church is required to pay more for graduates varies from denomination to denomination. Some denominations, in fact, still do not have clergy without a BA or BS + Mdiv.

In the West Ohio Conference of the United Methodist Church the difference between the minimum full-time salary for Licensed Local Pastors (not seminary graduates) and Provisional Elders (new seminary graduates) is actually rather minimal- roughly $1000 per year. The really important difference is that a Local Pastor can be offered a quarter time, half-time, or 3/4 time appointment, at the appropriate percentage of the minimum full-time salary. Ordained Elders can only end up in part-time appointments with their permission.

I know that The Episcopal Church now allows dioces to choose to ordain "mass priests" or "canon 9 priests" or "local priests", who do not attend seminary, at the bishop's discretion. Since 2003 there are no restrictions on the ministries to which they can be called, and no separate lower minimum salary, AFIK.

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Sober Preacher's Kid

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The United Church of Canada, Try's northern cousin, has a clergy salary scale based on experience. It's not extravagant, clergy pay starts at $30,000 plus manse or housing allowance (congregation's choice). Housing allowances and manses are not subject to income tax but this is a concession to churches, not to clergy. Congregations are free to exceed the minimum by any amount they wish, this is rare except for moneyed congregations in Toronto, Montreal or other big cities like Timothy Eaton Memorial United Church in Toronto.

There is a defined benefit pension, supplementary health benefits and disability insurance, the usual Canadian employment package.

The United Church recently mandated that ministers may take a sabbatical after five years in a pastoral charge, our minister is going on a three month sabbatical next year, the whole Presbytery (all fourteen charges) is doing it in rotation. I have strongly suggested that we set up an account to accumulate sabbatical costs on a seven-year schedule and the Church Council is leaning to that. It will make things much easier to bear and it's a great attraction if we need to call a new minister, we have an ASA of 103 and it is extremely unusual to see a church so small so well organized.

The talk from the other side of the Pond about stipends is completely alien to me. In the UCCan ministers are employees, period, who receive a salary. None of this talk about officeholders or stipends for us.

The United Church has a mixture of practices to fit ministers to pastoral charges, given our parentage. The Manual stipulates that every minister shall have a church or charge and every church or charge shall have a minister. We legislated full employment for clergy. Congregations can pay what they want above the minimum and ministers are free to seek their own charge. If that fails for either party a Minister or Charge may seek Settlement (direct placement) by Conference. Movement between Conferences has to be approved by the Transfer and Settlement Committee.

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Polly

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
The shocking thing about the OP is the idea of paying more for graduates. That's just plain wrong.

I gather that you all across the pond don't tend to rack up the same kind of debt as we do getting education, but here it is an absolute necessity.
Then you pay off their loans for them, not increase their take-home stipend.

Or even better, fund the specifically ministerial part of their education, which is what we do inthe CofE.

Sorry Ken but life just isn't like that and your suggestions is way too idealistic.

The majority of students in ministerial training are mature(in their 30's,40's and 50's).

I'm 37, have 11k of student debts. Mrs T works and so we are likely to be better off than most but no-one should expect ministers to be still paying their debts off a they approach retirement.

I neve went into this for the money but if he option is offered to receive more so I n pay off my debts quicker why is that wrong?

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LutheranChik
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Since I was quoted in the OP, let me clarify that the salary guidelines of the ELCA are just that: guidelines. My pastor, for instance, takes a considerably lower salary than the guideline, because our congregation frankly can't afford someone with his curriculum vitae, and because he enjoys rural ministry. And he has a spouse with a good job that also affords him the freedom to follow his bliss in our locality.

Also, to clarify: In the US, Lutheran pastors are paid by congregations, not by their church bodies; no "stipends" except in some special cases. (And like many other employees elsewhere in the workforce, pastors and others working in the ELCA have to pay increasingly more for increasingly less generous health insurance...our pastor is on his wife's university insurance plan because it's a better plan.)

And -- the educational minimum for a pastor in the ELCA has long been an MDiv, although there are a couple of pilot programs out there designed to fast-track would-be second-career pastors through a low-residency academic program, with an eye toward placing them in especially underserved parts of the country. It started out with the requirement that the person have a master's level education in...something; now they've loosened that requirement so that a few years ago I met a second-career pastor who had an associate's degree in some technical field and was working in a blue-collar job when he felt the call and was eventually accepted into this pilot program. The way it works is actually very much like it did in the 19th century in rural America, when promising would-be pastors who couldn't afford to be educated on the Continent or at one of the very few nascent American Lutheran seminaries would "read" for several years with a working pastor until they were deemed ready to assume a church of their own. (Much like rural Abe Lincoln "reading" the law sans law school.)

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mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
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Angloid wrote:
quote:
Well student debt is becoming a big problem here too now, thanks to our America-worshipping government. But the repayments only kick in at a certain level of income, and I don't know if the average UK ministerial salary is high enough for that. Anybody with more accurate/ up
to date information?

From next Sep, new undergrads will be charged about £9k per year by most institutions - since most decided that charging less, as was made possible in the new arrangements, would not play well in the market. This is for fees - living costs are on top.

I am not entirely clear on new payback arrangements for living cost loans - they may be rolled in with fees, or may not - but for fees, the 'loan' is repayable on graduation at 9% of income over £21k per year.

In my field (engineering) £21k is a not-bad-guess at a typical grad salary. £25k might be achievable in a 'good' job for a 'good' student. Even in this case, repayment is £360 per year - so the 'loan' starts to look more like a marginal tax increase, and the principal sum (if that's the right term) looks unlikely to get paid off.

Postgrad fees have risen (since central support has been withdrawn) - but no such repayment vehicle exists, which means the £7.5k my institution thinks the market will bear for a taught MSc, is as real as a car loan. I expect this to hit my taught postgrad numbers hard.

I imagine many mature trainee clergy with 'other' first degrees may find themselves in this postgrad boat, though how many train using courses offered by 'regular' universities and how many via denominational training colleges who can set their own rules and fees, I don't know.

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Avila
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As a single person in a church house - rent and council tax free - and a on a stipend, I feel that I am better off than many of those I serve and certainly than my siblings.

Does it reflect my education? Or equivalent posts? Not sure, but it is more than enough for me, including investing for retirement. (I feel it is important that as I can I morally should make my own provisions as there are others that will need the increasingly limited denominational help more)

But the same stipend is offered to those with dependents. If it is not about reward for skills or work done but being released from a financial burden to work elsewhere then should it be dependant on the various contexts we live in?

What is more than enough for me is a great struggle for those with families. And spouses are expected to sit very lightly to any career as a move may leave them out of work for lengths of time when arriving in the new place.

It is a complicated issue - and I don't know how it can be made fully 'fair' for all ministry families and to the churches that have to find the funds.

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Trisagion
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We have struggled with the issue of how you deal with those living on a stipend but with dependents. As you might imagine, it hasnt been something of which the Catholic Church has much experience.

With ex-Anglican clergy who are married we have a higher stipend to take account of wives (where they have one) and further increments if they have children. We are now facing the issue with married Permanent Deacons in full-time ministry - like me - who might receive stole fees but not (obviously) Mass offerings. What happens about Christmas and Easter offerings?

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LutheranChik
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While I see that the subject of pastoral educational requirements and their compensation for same seems to be a culturally loaded issue here depending upon people's Christian traditions...I'm a little concerned by what seems to be a dismissive attitude toward having an educated clergy. I know it's very romantic to think of early Christianity as a bunch of humble working folk "sharing the good news" and livng lives of prayer and help extended toward others; but in both my experience living and in my observation of history and society, if you give enthusiastic but naive people exposure to Scripture and the Christian Plot without giving them adequate tools to make sense of it all, you wind up with...well, with people who hear the Gospel of Mark and come away with the idea that the most important part of that witness is one intriguingly freaky, magickal allusion to handling poisonous snakes. While education isn't always an innoculant against this sort of thing -- the angels-dancing-on-a-pinhead or do-women-have-souls discussions of medieval eggheads were no less goofy than my Old Order neighbors' turf battles over straight pins versus hook-and-eye closures on their clothing -- if it's done right it gives people the tools to help people think critically and systematically.

And if you think that this is an argument for an educational elite dispensing tiny crumbs of dumbed-down piety to the hoi-polloi...I'm actually arguing the very opposite. We need educated clergy who have the skills to share what they know in ways that a variety of people across socioeconomic lines and psychological dispositions can grasp, so that this knowledge is perpetually circulated and democratized. My pastor, for instance, can unpack Walter Wink's (been thinking of him a lot lately) pretty nuanced ideas about the "powers and principalities" cited by Scripture for instance, in ways that farmers and beauticians and high-school dropouts can understand; but he has the skills to be the conduit of this kind of understanding. And there's value in that, IMHO. And I think that's why, despite sentimental wishes to the contrary, Christianity has always recognized that much is expected of teachers and preachers, and that even before Christianty got mainstreamed into official respectability the Christian community was calling upon people with skills and interest in a life of the mind to be a part of the Plot and share those gifts. Now, I suspect a future where the idea of every local worshipping community being able to afford the services of a full-time master's degree holder is going to be untenable. I don't know what's going to happen to seminaries as we understand them today. But the work of seminaries, and the education that they impart, will still go on even if we wind up with some sort of deconstructed system that isn't based on the university-residency model. If you're going to be critical of ministerial education, critique a system that is becoming obsolete, not the training that it imparts to graduates.

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mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
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quote:
My pastor, for instance, can unpack Walter Wink's (been thinking of him a lot lately) pretty nuanced ideas about the "powers and principalities" cited by Scripture for instance, in ways that farmers and beauticians and high-school dropouts can understand
Sounds fantastic. And definately worth funding. I'm a Methodist on my third shite-preacher-in-a-row. After nearly 13 years of spiritual / intellectual starvation (present company notwithstanding [Smile] ), I'm certainly not arguing for an under-educated priesthood...

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LutheranChik
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Exactly. And having a particular degree isn't a guarantor of being able to obtain that kind of insight and skill, but education of some sort with people who know what they're talking about is.

I also think that there may be a Pond perception that a theological degree is all about "head" stuff like Koine Greek and "exegetin' and hermeneutin'," as one of my teachers puts it. In the US, there is a big emphasis on pastoral care -- much more so than Europe; book learning and hands-on parish work. One of our ELCA neighbor churches has mentored several seminarians from Croatia, and it's very interesting that the Croatian Lutheran seminary is sending students over here because they just don't have a strong in-house system for teaching pastoral care; their curriculum is very 19th century. The pastor at this church, I'm told, has had a great experience taking these seminarians along with him on doing bedside and end-of-life and other chaplaincy things, getting them involved with youth and other subgroups within congregations, helping them with their "people" skills, helping them understand how to build relationships with local social-services providers and other resources and otherwise expand their ability to provide aid and comfort to people that goes beyond just "telling the story" and then unpacking it in an informed way.

So when I'm talking about pastoral education, that is also a part of the package, to me.

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Carys

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quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Well student debt is becoming a big problem here too now, thanks to our America-worshipping government. But the repayments only kick in at a certain level of income, and I don't know if the average UK ministerial salary is high enough for that. Anybody with more accurate/ up to date information?

The rules have changed so many times over the last few years that people who were in University only a few years apart may be in quite different situations. For me, I do pay contributions back to my student loan from my stipend each month but the amount of I pay is very low.
Whereas were I earning the same as seasick, I suspect I wouldn't be paying anything back because (having started uni 2 years earlier) I'm on the old 'mortgage style loans' and don't start paying back until a much higher level.* But when I do hit that level I will have to pay a proportion of what I owe rather than a proportion of what I earn. This actually means that there is an amount I could earn where I would be worse off than earning slightly less. On my style loans, debts not paid off after I think 25 years of graduating are written off. I remember when they were introduced hearing that only David Hope would have had to pay anything in terms of his age when he became a bishop (who were the only people who earned enough). Though in fact tied housing helps. I'm about to start a job as a verger and won't be earning enough to be paying back, but if you factored in what I'd have to be paying for the accommodation I would in fact be earning enough!

But in fact, this talk of student debt here in the US isn't entirely comparing like with like. The debt seasick incurred was for his first degree (not in theology) whereas his ministerial training was paid for by the Methodist Church (fees and living). Whereas AIUI, those training for the ministry in the States have to self-fund.

Carys

*Average grad earnings I think, currently c. £27k a year rather than the, I think, £15k of seasick's system. We also have to apply to defer rather than being done on the PAYE system.

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Custard
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The standard Church of England stipend is remarkably similar to the standard teacher starting salary, regardless of the educational background or experience of the minister.

But then the C of E provides housing too, the value of which varies massively depending on area.

The whole student loan thing is a farce. 0.5% retrospective on the top rate of income tax for all graduates would do it fine and be fairer. Except the policy-makers would have to pay it too...

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mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
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Bingo, Custard.

I'd pay that. In fact I'd pay more, in retrospective gratitude to all the milkmen, cleaners, nurses (not grads then) and lorry drivers whose tax £s paid for my degree, and maintenance grant (hey, remember them!).

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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
In the US, there is a big emphasis on pastoral care -- much more so than Europe; book learning and hands-on parish work.

Come on LC you know better than to generalise like that. What on earth gives you that impression?

Pastoral Care is part of every college course in the UK: it's more likely 9as in my case) to be the Greek and Hebrew that don't get taught. You can look them up - pastoral care is a gift not a lesson. For those students on placements it is assessed and taught on the ground as it is for the trainee pastor who works alongside me for 50% of the time.

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
[QUOTE] ...... whereas his ministerial training was paid for by the Methodist Church (fees and living). Whereas AIUI, those training for the ministry in the States have to self-fund.
Carys

As do we in the Baptist Union of Great Britain. Some get support from churches but it cost me more than £40K for the 3 years I did (fees, living). I weasn't eligible for a grant as I was older and already had a degree.

[ 13. February 2012, 12:44: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]

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Leaf
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
In the US, there is a big emphasis on pastoral care -- much more so than Europe; book learning and hands-on parish work.

Come on LC you know better than to generalise like that. What on earth gives you that impression?

In LutheranChik's defense, this may be true of Lutherans in continental Europe. I myself have met a few seminarians, from the Baltic states and Germany, who wanted some North American seminary experience for exactly the reason LC stated: pastoral care education and practice. I do not know whether their perceptions were justified or not, but their perceptions were real enough to them to cross the Pond for the purpose.
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ExclamationMark
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Income now = income in 1987 (even though I am paid above denominational minimum) but I wouldn't change a thing. You know the position before starting out - why whinge now?
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LutheranChik
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quote:
Come on LC you know better than to generalise like that. What on earth gives you that impression?


My impression is based on what I know from people who, like the pastor I noted, work with students from other European countries and from people who've studied abroad; although I realize that seminaries in the former Soviet bloc may be behind the curve when it comes to modernizing their ministerial training. I think our general impression, though, in the States, is that university education across the Pond, while changing, is in general still more academically and less vocationally inclined than American higher education tends to be...and I seem to recall someone else alluding to that in a previous post. I know I'm a gray-haired old lady, but back in the 80's when I was at the university and studying business German/thinking about an internship, the impression I got was that German executives had a much more liberal-arts-based education than the average brass-tacks business curricula in the US.

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
As do we in the Baptist Union of Great Britain. Some get support from churches but it cost me more than £40K for the 3 years I did (fees, living). I weasn't eligible for a grant as I was older and already had a degree.

There can be some BU funding available towards higher degrees and in-service training, but it will not cover anything more than a small percentage of the costs.

The URC are somewhat more generous in that each Minister does have a "in-service training" budget, however I believe this is yearly and cannot be rolled up into one large lump sum.

[ 13. February 2012, 12:51: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
The debt seasick incurred was for his first degree (not in theology) whereas his ministerial training was paid for by the Methodist Church (fees and living). Whereas AIUI, those training for the ministry in the States have to self-fund.

That's what I was talking about which others seemed to misunderstand.

The church ought to fund, or repay, whatever part of the education is specifially about ministry. I'm a bit surprised that so many US churches don't seem to do that, if we can believe what we read here.

But if the candidate pastor has already got, say, an engineering degree or a Spanish literature degree, it seems wrong to pay them more just because of it. Do you also pay off their bank loans or their mortgages? Some people choose to study, some choose to travel abroad, some choose to read lots of books (I must have spent over 10,000 pounds on books in my life), some choose to buy a bigger house. All of those things are arguably of benefit to a future minister. Why pay them more for study?

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Ken

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
quote:
Come on LC you know better than to generalise like that. What on earth gives you that impression?


My impression is based on what I know from people who, like the pastor I noted, work with students from other European countries and from people who've studied abroad; although I realize that seminaries in the former Soviet bloc may be behind the curve when it comes to modernizing their ministerial training. I think our general impression, though, in the States, is that university education across the Pond, while changing, is in general still more academically and less vocationally inclined than American higher education tends to be...and I seem to recall someone else alluding to that in a previous post. I know I'm a gray-haired old lady, but back in the 80's when I was at the university and studying business German/thinking about an internship, the impression I got was that German executives had a much more liberal-arts-based education than the average brass-tacks business curricula in the US.
That's certainly not the case in the UK where the emphasis is balanced on theory/practical across the denominations. Even in the 90's we had theology/pastoral on a 50:50 split in lectures.

We don't spend our college time drinking tea, making cucumber sandwiches or parsing verbs. Soem admittedly spend a lot of time working out the nuances of liturgy but most don't. Most of us have churches to run alongside studying - and that involves pastoral work. I'm full time and accredited but there's a trainee pastor here who pretty much does what I do and he's only a few months into things.

Germany and Russia may be very different of course but I've actually found that ministers from the USA are way less practical/pastoral than we are here. They seem more concerned to me about getting their services right on Sunday and getting to the restuarant before the methodists - but perhaps that's just Southern Baptists.

How many of your ministers for example visit people as a matter of course in their workplace? Many do here.

[ 13. February 2012, 13:04: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]

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Jengie jon

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continental Reformed ministerial training is a lot more academic and they get seven years of it.

I suspect the difference is that there is a long standing and honoured route into the ministry by which a minister first gets a degree (often liberal arts but not solely, my ministers one was in Chemistry) and then trains for the ministry as a second degree or practical course.

Such people would have a wider academic background than someone who solely did theology as their only degree.

However the incorporation of liberal arts into basic ministerial training, is very rare indeed.

Jengie

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LutheranChik
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quote:
How many of your ministers for example visit people as a matter of course in their workplace? Many do here.


That isn't a common practice in the US for many reasons -- the relative religious diversity here and legal issues that would make many employers squeamish about giving the impression that they're promoting a particular religion or permutation of Christianity and thus subtly pressuring employees to embrace it...a plaintiff's attorney could have fun with a civil-rights/wrongful discharge case in that situation, for sure.

That said, I know of a workplace chaplaincy program that's ecumenical in nature but seems to be rooted in the Christian Reformed Church. In the community where I used to live there's a CRC workplace chaplain who hangs out in a local cafe' one day a week making himself available for anyone wanting spiritual counsel.

My pastor, on a much less organized level, does a certain amount of "diner ministry" down at the local cafe' near our shack, just because it's where he's likely to grab something to eat; people tend to gravitate toward talking to him, so his meals sometimes wind up as counseling sessions or theology bull sessions. He's happy to do this, and it gives him an opportunity to interact with community people who normally wouldn't darken our church door.

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