|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: SSPX to reconcile with Rome
|
CL
Shipmate
# 16145
|
Posted
Rumours are starting to filter through from Rome and SSPX sources that Bp Fellay, the Society's Superior General, has signed the Doctrinal Preamble presented by Rome for acceptance by the SSPX as a condition for canonical regularisation. If true this is monumental news.
--------------------
"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
|
Posted
Agreed - and more than many people dared hope. We'll need to await full confirmation of the details, but this really does look like it will be the beginning of the end of the breach. Alleluia, and pass the Widow.
--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
If true this is monumental news.
... within the world of sedevacantist Roman Catholic fringe groups, that is. To the rest of the world, perhaps less so.
--------------------
Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
If true this is monumental news.
... within the world of sedevacantist Roman Catholic fringe groups, that is. To the rest of the world, perhaps less so.
Don't be a meanie, DJ. And the SSPX is explicitly not sedevacantist - otherwise, why would they be submitting to Benedict XVI for canonical recognition?
--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
If true this is monumental news.
... within the world of sedevacantist Roman Catholic fringe groups, that is. To the rest of the world, perhaps less so.
Whether we like it or not, and regardless of whether it is realistic to expect reciprocity, it is our duty as RC's to welcome them back.
quote:
In my Father’s house there are many dwelling places...
The price of the return of this particular prodigal son will be paid by an unknown number of RC's that will be even further alienated from their church.
So it goes.
--------------------
It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
CL
Shipmate
# 16145
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
If true this is monumental news.
... within the world of sedevacantist Roman Catholic fringe groups, that is. To the rest of the world, perhaps less so.
The SSPX are not sedevacantists, though certainly there are crypto-sedevacantists in their ranks, both clerical and lay, and disproportionately Anglophone too from what I can see.
--------------------
"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
Whether we like it or not, and regardless of whether it is realistic to expect reciprocity, it is our duty as RC's to welcome them back.
Amen to that.
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
The price of the return of this particular prodigal son will be paid by an unknown number of RC's that will be even further alienated from their church.
"Will be" or "will feel"? Need it be so?
--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
The SSPX are not sedevacantists, though certainly there are crypto-sedevacantists in their ranks, both clerical and lay, and disproportionately Anglophone too from what I can see.
And another good result of this reconciliation may well be the drawing of some of the sedevacantist poison from the body of the Society. Much of the "lunatic fringe" will never accept this rapprochement and will likely abandon the Society rather than accept it.
--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
If true this is monumental news.
... within the world of sedevacantist Roman Catholic fringe groups, that is. To the rest of the world, perhaps less so.
Don't be a meanie, DJ.
Yes, you are right, I was being a bit mean there - the rather hyperbolic description of this as 'monumental' just got up my nose a bit!
You're right that SSPX are not officially sedevacantists although my one encounter with a group of them in the flesh suggests that there is a definitely a strain of this among their membership. I'm glad to see the rift sorted but, call me cynical, I suspect the immediate effect will be to lead to the wackier fringes of SSPX finding reasons to break away again anyway...
--------------------
Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
CL
Shipmate
# 16145
|
Posted
The SSPX have just confirmed the news.
--------------------
"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
CL
Shipmate
# 16145
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
The SSPX are not sedevacantists, though certainly there are crypto-sedevacantists in their ranks, both clerical and lay, and disproportionately Anglophone too from what I can see.
And another good result of this reconciliation may well be the drawing of some of the sedevacantist poison from the body of the Society. Much of the "lunatic fringe" will never accept this rapprochement and will likely abandon the Society rather than accept it.
There'll definitely be a split, with Williamson at the forefront. What will be interesting is the responses of Tissier de Mallerais and Galaretta.
--------------------
"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
I'm glad to see the rift sorted but, call me cynical, I suspect the immediate effect will be to lead to the wackier fringes of SSPX finding reasons to break away again anyway...
I agree, DJ, and as I said above I think this siphoning off of the loonier tunes (very much a minority, I believe) might be a good thing for the Society and the "new deal".
--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mary LA
Shipmate
# 17040
|
Posted
This kind of news always prompts mad conspiracy fantasies, the fascination I had for a few minutes with Dan Brown's Opus Dei lunacy.
We should have a confession thread somewhere here so I could go and get this off my chest without having to feel sheepish about it.
I suppose it just means more Tridentine Masses and conservative thinking.
--------------------
“I often wonder if we were all characters in one of God's dreams.”
― Muriel Spark
Posts: 499 | From: Africa | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
CL
Shipmate
# 16145
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
I'm glad to see the rift sorted but, call me cynical, I suspect the immediate effect will be to lead to the wackier fringes of SSPX finding reasons to break away again anyway...
I agree, DJ, and as I said above I think this siphoning off of the loonier tunes (very much a minority, I believe) might be a good thing for the Society and the "new deal".
Clergywise that is probably correct, laity are another matter though.
--------------------
"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mary LA:
I suppose it just means more Tridentine Masses and conservative thinking.
You say it like that's a bad thing, Mary. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
CL
Shipmate
# 16145
|
Posted
quote:
Communiqué of the Pontifical Commission "Ecclesia Dei"
The text of the response of His Excellency Bp. Bernard Fellay, Superior General of the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X, requested during the meeting in the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith of March 16, 2012, was delivered on April 17, 2012. This text will be examined by the Dicastery and submitted afterwards to the judgement of the Holy Father.
[ 18. April 2012, 11:04: Message edited by: CL ]
--------------------
"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mary LA
Shipmate
# 17040
|
Posted
I don't know Chesterbelloc, I really don't know. I've been to some beautiful Tridentine Masses and love older liturgies.
But,but, but. I come from a background of studying liberation theologies and there is really no place in conservative traditions for someone like me. The more conservative parishes or Roman Catholic Church groups out here (strong influence of Irish Catholicism and German Schoenstatt) are those which have never participated in any social justice activism, not even under apartheid.
So while I might feel drawn to the hymns and liturgies, that wealth of pre-Vatican II tradition, I would sit having tea afterwards with parishioners who are misogynist, homophobic and opposed to any human rights progress or transformation.
--------------------
“I often wonder if we were all characters in one of God's dreams.”
― Muriel Spark
Posts: 499 | From: Africa | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
|
Posted
Speaking as a hopeless ignoramus on Catholicism (I just had to Google "sedevacantist") I can understand, I think, some people's scepticism - and admire the hopeful ones.
I suppose it rather hinges on whether those seeking reconciliation are doing so in an effort to come to terms with Vatican II, or in the belief that they can trust the present Pope to continue the blessed task of sending it to join the Titanic.
--------------------
In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
|
Posted
There should have been a "what they see as" before "the blessed task..." but my efforts to edit were torpedoed.
--------------------
In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
Whether we like it or not, and regardless of whether it is realistic to expect reciprocity, it is our duty as RC's to welcome them back.
Amen to that.
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
The price of the return of this particular prodigal son will be paid by an unknown number of RC's that will be even further alienated from their church.
"Will be" or "will feel"? Need it be so?
If RC's were perfect, in love and tolerance and patience, in a sober view of their own personal imperfections, and in an unshakeable trust that the Holy Ghost will prevent the RCC from making any (serious) errors in judgment, it wouldn't have to be.
Taken on its own, the return of the FSSPX would be a joyful occasion. And pretty rare too. Schisms almost never heal.
Taken in context however many RC's will feel violated.
For decades JP2 has bent himself over backwards to coax the FSSPX back. He made concession after concession, only to be met by new demands. B16 continued this policy, in a slightly more dignified manner.
At the same time anything even remotely reeking of liberation theology has been firmly discredited, while the right wing dictatorships (and the bishops supporting them) that caused liberation theology to arise, could consistently expect at the least a neutral treatment.
Also at the same time JP2 managed to ignore the ever growing evidence of pedophile activities (and an assortment of other harmful crimes) of more than a few of his brother priests (some quite close to him), even to the extent of refusing -until his last breath- to take action against the wholesale pedophile and supposedly celibate polygamist fr. Maciel. Thankfully B16 did have the courage and decency to more or less depose this horrible man, regretfully leaving a taste of too little too late.
More locally to me, my bishop (newly created cardinal even), who I have no doubt will unreservedly welcome back the FSSPX (partly because he agrees with them and partly because the FSSPX is not active in his diocese anyway), actively encourages anyone to leave who is dissatisfied with his wishing to create a "Holy Rest" model church.
For quite a few RC's sensitive to these sinful imbalances, the return at all cost of the FSSPX will be the last straw that causes them to leave. And because we will never know how many they are, simply because most of them will leave silently, leaving them open to accusations of apostasy, liberalism, laxness, individualism, egoism etc., we will not know how high the bitter price will be.
But please, don't let my reservations spoil the fun.
--------------------
It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
For decades JP2 has bent himself over backwards to coax the FSSPX back. He made concession after concession, only to be met by new demands. B16 continued this policy, in a slightly more dignified manner.
I am subject to correction on this, but my impression was that JP2 did not particularly bend over backwards for the SSPX -- he did, after all, excommunicate the bishops -- and that it is really only under B16 that the Church has become so solicitous toward them.
--------------------
Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
Posts: 2928 | From: that city in "The Wire" | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
For decades JP2 has bent himself over backwards to coax the FSSPX back. He made concession after concession, only to be met by new demands. B16 continued this policy, in a slightly more dignified manner.
I am subject to correction on this, but my impression was that JP2 did not particularly bend over backwards for the SSPX -- he did, after all, excommunicate the bishops -- and that it is really only under B16 that the Church has become so solicitous toward them.
I think that is right. Other than the provisions of Ecclesia Dei adflicta - and those were so weak that unsympathetic bishops were able to stifle them - there wasn't much above the surface, although there was quite a lot of toing and froing behind the scenes.
If the schism can be healed, it will be a really good development. Their presence within the tent will, I think, make it more likely that an honest discussion of the developments in Catholic teaching at and following Vatican II will take place.
[ 18. April 2012, 15:18: Message edited by: Trisagion ]
--------------------
ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
For decades JP2 has bent himself over backwards to coax the FSSPX back. He made concession after concession, only to be met by new demands. B16 continued this policy, in a slightly more dignified manner.
I am subject to correction on this, but my impression was that JP2 did not particularly bend over backwards for the SSPX -- he did, after all, excommunicate the bishops -- and that it is really only under B16 that the Church has become so solicitous toward them.
It would take too much re-search for me to substantiate/document my perception of this.
But I distinctly remember that, certainly before the sexual abuse scandal(s) began to take up most of the media coverage, the FSSPX-schism was considered to be the only real stain on the otherwise fantastic papacy of JP2. This was seen as the reason for the amount of effort that vatican officials were reported to put into negotiations with the FSSPX, presumably on orders from JP2. About every year there were spurts of relatively intense publicity about negotiations with the FSSPX, where concessions were spelled out, only to be met later on by new demands from bishop Fellay. The negotiations had a partial success with the return in 2002 of a group of Brazilians into the Personal Apostolic Administration of Saint John Mary Vianney.
But given the fact that the Vatican is not in the habit of supplying hard facts on any work-in-progress (and sometimes even about completed works), and news therefore mainly consists of rumors (at best based on leaked information) and speculation, my memories/perceptions can be totally wrong.
Anyway, JP2 had no other choice than to confirm that mgr. Lefebvre and the bishops he consecrated without proper authorization (to put it mildly) had in fact excommunicated themselves. It has always been obvious that he deeply regretted having been forced to do that.
[ 18. April 2012, 16:53: Message edited by: opaWim ]
--------------------
It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
|
Posted
Miss Amanda hates to sound dense, but is it the Society of St. Pius X that we're talking about?
--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B Reckondwythe:
is it the Society of St. Pius X that we're talking about?
I believe SSPX is a statistical software package used mainly by social scientists.
--------------------
The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
Posts: 978 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
If RC's were perfect, in love and tolerance and patience, in a sober view of their own personal imperfections, and in an unshakeable trust that the Holy Ghost will prevent the RCC from making any (serious) errors in judgment, it wouldn't have to be.
As my favorite 20th century Roman Catholic theologian* said frequently, "If God had wanted a perfect church, She would have left it in the hands of the seraphs instead of us."
*That would, of course, be Fr. Andrew Greeley
--------------------
Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B Reckondwythe:
is it the Society of St. Pius X that we're talking about?
I believe SSPX is a statistical software package used mainly by social scientists.
That would be SPSS.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
*That would, of course, be Fr. Andrew Greeley
Good for you ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
For me Richard Rohr (according to some proper catholics The Liberal New-Age Heretic That Should Have Long Ago Been Defrocked And Excommunicated Richard Rohr) has the most convincing arguments to stay in the RCC.
But Andrew Greeley comes in as a very dear and much appreciated second.
--------------------
It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Is this the same group that Mel Gibson's family is involved with?
And I've found Greeley very helpful, too, especially "Angel Fire". I'm now reading the sequel. (No spoilers, please!)
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Is this the same group that Mel Gibson's family is involved with?
Everything I can find online says he's just an independent traditionalist Roman Catholic.
--------------------
Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
|
Posted
I'm not sure Mel Gibson's "traditionalist Catholic" stance represents what I would consider sane, mainstream Catholicism, Spiffy.
That sane, mainstream Catholicism would exist somewhere in the middle, between the extremes of Gibson and the likes of Richard Rohr.
It has never been lost. Just sadly misplaced by many. I think there is a massive effort under the current Pope to bring this sane mainstream back to the average Catholic.
--------------------
Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
|
Posted
@SP. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
--------------------
"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
I'm not sure Mel Gibson's "traditionalist Catholic" stance represents what I would consider sane, mainstream Catholicism, Spiffy.
Yeah, that would be why I said "independent traditionalist Roman Catholicism", to differentiate it as its own special brand from regular Roman Catholicism, and Roman Catholicism from other forms of Catholicism (like my favorite flavor to indulge in, Anglo-Catholicism).
[ 19. April 2012, 04:26: Message edited by: Spiffy ]
--------------------
Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
decampagne
Shipmate
# 17012
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Is this the same group that Mel Gibson's family is involved with?
No. Mel (or, rather, Hutton) Gibson's lot *are* sedevacantists, and regard the SSPX (and similar) as greatly compromised.
The most notorious figure who is involved with the SSPX must surely be Richard Williamson. If they *are* to soon be fully reconciled with Rome, one very probable consequence is that the "loony fringe" like him, even if they don't go their own way, will at least be under far greater discipline than hitherto - indeed.this has already been the case since Pope Benedict lifted the excommunications of the SSPX Bishops in 2009, since when Williamson has effectively been silenced.
Posts: 86 | From: Oxfordshire | Registered: Mar 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
I'm not sure Mel Gibson's "traditionalist Catholic" stance represents what I would consider sane, mainstream Catholicism, Spiffy.
Yeah, that would be why I said "independent traditionalist Roman Catholicism", to differentiate it as its own special brand from regular Roman Catholicism, and Roman Catholicism from other forms of Catholicism (like my favorite flavor to indulge in, Anglo-Catholicism).
These days I find myself less 'Anglo'.
Thomas Merton said, to really understand Catholicism, you had to go to a Latin country.
I think Catholicism has deep Western European roots. I think that's what the present Pope is trying to return to in a very quiet, somewhat understated, way.
--------------------
Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
|
Posted
Meanwhile, back in the real world, the only news is that the Vatican has received something from mgr. Fellay, which first has to be studied etc. etc.
Apparently what they got from mgr. Fellay is not, as least not straightforward, what the ultimatum called for.
So, it's business as usual.
Stalling may take the schism well past it's 25th anniversary.
[ 19. April 2012, 11:52: Message edited by: opaWim ]
--------------------
It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
|
Posted
I agree, OpaWim, that we still can't be sure. But all the reports seem to indicate that Msgr Fellay has returned a signed and only slightly altered copy of the doctrinal preamble required: the language being used of those alterations is "slight", "for clarification", "technical", "not substantial".
--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
CL
Shipmate
# 16145
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
I agree, OpaWim, that we still can't be sure. But all the reports seem to indicate that Msgr Fellay has returned a signed and only slightly altered copy of the doctrinal preamble required: the language being used of those alterations is "slight", "for clarification", "technical", "not substantial".
The whole reason the preamble was never published to begin with was to allow for the sort of amendments (by both sides) that has in fact happened to date. The important point is that Bp Fellay has now actually signed it and it has been submitted to the Pope for consideration.
--------------------
"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
|
Posted
quote:
originally posted by CL:
There'll definitely be a split, with Williamson at the forefront.
We should certainly hope so! Do we want loony Holocaust deniers in the Church? Let the extremists go their own way, and then we can welcome those whose wish it is to come back to the fold.
quote:
Originally posted by Mary LA:
I suppose it just means more Tridentine Masses and conservative thinking.
Again I hope so!
quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
I am subject to correction on this, but my impression was that JP2 did not particularly bend over backwards for the SSPX -- he did, after all, excommunicate the bishops -- and that it is really only under B16 that the Church has become so solicitous toward them.
If there's one think Pope Benedict XVI will be remembered for, it's his passion for reconciliation. From his visit in 2006 to the Ecumenical Patriarch, to his creation of Ordinariates in English speaking countries, to his lifting of the excommunications of the SSPX bishops, he has consistently tried to obey Christ's command that the Church should be One. If the SSPX can be brought on board, it will be cause for rejoicing.
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
Their presence within the tent will, I think, make it more likely that an honest discussion of the developments in Catholic teaching at and following Vatican II will take place.
A good thing for the Church. Speaking personally, I would certainly visit them for worship, provided their position within the Church was regularised. Fortunately, in Britain, we've had the Latin Mass Society since 1965, which has done so much to preserve the Old Rite at a time when it was virtually banned, and from within a position of fidelity to the magisterium. The SSPX has, on the other hand, been a loose canon. Thanks to the Holy Father's efforts, hopefully this will soon be put right.
--------------------
Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
quote:
Yeah, that would be why I said "independent traditionalist Roman Catholicism", to differentiate it as its own special brand from regular Roman Catholicism, and Roman Catholicism from other forms of Catholicism (like my favorite flavor to indulge in, Anglo-Catholicism).
These days I find myself less 'Anglo'.
Thomas Merton said, to really understand Catholicism, you had to go to a Latin country.
I think Catholicism has deep Western European roots. I think that's what the present Pope is trying to return to in a very quiet, somewhat understated, way.
I'm not all that Western European, and am probably what you are referring to as 'Latin', and I'm sure as shootin' not terribly impressed with B16 (just as I wasn't all that impressed with him when he was Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger).
Then again, as a non-Western European, female-identified, secularly educated, queer congregationalist in her early 30s, he and I don't really have a lot in common so it's to be expected. Of course, looking at the latest stats, the Roman Catholic Church around the world isn't all that Western-European male-identified any more either, so take from that what you will.
What I was trying to do (in a very quiet, somewhat understated, way) was remind folks that our siblings in Christ the Romans don't have a lock on catholicity.
[code]
[ 19. April 2012, 23:48: Message edited by: John Holding ]
--------------------
Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
|
Posted
Spiffy, the point I was trying to make, without attacking you or your sensibilities, which I respect, is that, historically, what is today known as Anglo-Catholicism, as far as I can see it, is something which developed out of the Oxford Movement in 19th Century England. That Movement was an attempt to rediscover and reaffirm the Catholicity of the Church of England which its members felt had been neglected since the Reformation. As you know, some of the Movement's original members, including J H Newman, eventually left the Church of England because they felt that it was an impossible task to reconnect with England's Catholic past via the bridge which they had attempted to construct.
Whether you can be truly 'Catholic' whilst a member of the Anglican Communion is, to many people, highly debatable, to say the least.
The debate continues and many far, far better qualified than I, on both sides of it, have commented voluminously on it.
I know there are Eastern Catholics. The vast majority of members of the Roman Catholic Church are, as you say, Latin Rite Catholics. As Rome has been the headquarters of the RCC since very early times I tend to believe that the sensibility of the Roman Church is best expressed and seen in Latin countries.
I feel I am unable to make any further comment of any value on this topic.
--------------------
Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
|
Posted
Re the term "catholic"
I currently am a member of a congregation of the US Episcopal Church. I was raised a Roman Catholic and was active in that particular ecclesiastical entity until 15 years ago. I still consider myself a catholic right now, i embrace being part of the universal Body of Christ. I totally and respectfully recognise that the official stance of the RCC disagrees and i am not bringing it up here to debate that particular issue on this thread.
The reason i do bring it up is to say that I don't consider myself particularly what is called "Anglo-Catholic" which to me is a rather different thing conceptually -- i understand Anglo-Catholicism to espouse particularly "high church" liturgy and ritual among other things. Me, i'm a product of Vatican 2 and and quite happy in my mostly Rite 2 MOR parish.
(Not to say i don't appreciate higher-up-the-candle liturgy, i do indeed, but i can also appreciate worship in the other direction on the candle, and indeed entirely off the candle -- i like that diverse approaches are available).
To sum up. I define myself as a catholic christian worshipping in the anglican communion, but not as what is called anglo-catholic (absolutely no disrespect to those who do so self-identify -- some of my best friends do). Does that make any sense?
[ 20. April 2012, 02:18: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
--------------------
God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
|
Posted
That was hedged around with so many qualifications that if it was a will , it would be ruled invalid ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
--------------------
"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
otyetsfoma
Shipmate
# 12898
|
Posted
I would agree that there is something distasteful in the term "anglo-catholic" as used through most of the twentieth century until now: it seems to mean a desire to imitate everything the Roman Catholic Church does. Originally in the early nineteenth century it meant the appeal of the CofE to the church fathers and the oecumenical councils.
Posts: 842 | From: Edgware UK | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
otyetsfoma
Shipmate
# 12898
|
Posted
I would agree that there is something distasteful in the term "anglo-catholic" as used through most of the twentieth century until now: it seems to mean a desire to imitate everything the Roman Catholic Church does. Originally in the early nineteenth century it meant the appeal of the CofE to the church fathers and the oecumenical councils. Anglo-Catholics in the modern sense seem to care little to the Fathers or Councils (nor even to any RC authorities, except those that deal with liturgy).
Posts: 842 | From: Edgware UK | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by otyetsfoma:
I would agree that there is something distasteful in the term "anglo-catholic" as used through most of the twentieth century until now: it seems to mean a desire to imitate everything the Roman Catholic Church does.
I think some of this may be a pond difference. American Anglo-Catholics, for the most part, are NOT Anglo-papalists--at least, not in the manner that the internet has taught me to think many UK Anglo-Catholics have been (and I realize that reading too many blogs can give a decidedly skewed picture of any institution).
Anglo-Catholics in the US, with the exception of a handful of churches, seem to use the BCP. As a result of their influence, our prayer book is a lot more sympathetic to Anglo-Catholic viewpoints than seems to be the norm in some of the other provinces.
--------------------
How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
CL
Shipmate
# 16145
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
quote:
Originally posted by otyetsfoma:
I would agree that there is something distasteful in the term "anglo-catholic" as used through most of the twentieth century until now: it seems to mean a desire to imitate everything the Roman Catholic Church does.
I think some of this may be a pond difference. American Anglo-Catholics, for the most part, are NOT Anglo-papalists--at least, not in the manner that the internet has taught me to think many UK Anglo-Catholics have been (and I realize that reading too many blogs can give a decidedly skewed picture of any institution).
Anglo-Catholics in the US, with the exception of a handful of churches, seem to use the BCP. As a result of their influence, our prayer book is a lot more sympathetic to Anglo-Catholic viewpoints than seems to be the norm in some of the other provinces.
The Episcopalian BCP is derived from the Scottish Episcopal tradition, which was always more "Catholic" than the 1662 English BCP tradition.
--------------------
"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
|
Posted
That's true, CL, particularly (if i recall correctly) in the retention of the epiclesis--but I was thinking primarily of the differences between the 1928 American BCP and the 1979 BCP.
--------------------
How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
|
Posted
In Australia the term "Anglo-Catholic" seems to mean someone who dislikes their construct of "Protestantism", often having come from there; someone who, secretly, in their heart of hearts, would be a Roman Catholic but can't stomach not being their own Pope in their own parish and someone usually totally ignorant of Theology, including the Church Fathers and the Early Councils of the Church.
It is, indeed, a formidable list and will offend many. I make no apologies for that.
--------------------
Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
|
Posted
Addendum to above: Australian Anglo-Catholics really seem to get their emotional rocks off with elaborate ceremonial, much of which, to an outside observer, sometimes seems an end in itself. Perhaps "The End" for some.
--------------------
Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
