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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: 'Prayer Battle'?
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Komensky
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# 8675
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Posted
A prominent figure in the charismatic scene in London described (just yesterday) how after someone we knew died of cancer that we 'had lost a prayer battle'. A 'prayer' battle? With whom? If 'we' lost, who won?
Does this baffle others, or is it just me?
Thanks you in advance,
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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EtymologicalEvangelical
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# 15091
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Posted
I don't necessarily agree with his particular conclusion, but I can certainly understand the theological position on which he bases his view: that we are engaged in a spiritual war with the forces of evil (i.e. the devil etc), and that prayer is seen as one of the weapons in the arsenal of the Christian.
Certainly there is biblical support for this general position - Ephesians 6: 10-20; 2 Corinthians 10:4 etc...
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Komensky
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# 8675
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Posted
Of course I accept that Christians are, in some way, engaged in a spiritual battle. But prayer is not something you employ against someone—note how even those passages you cite, we are asked to pray for everyone. So back to my point, if we pray for someone who dies, how have we been 'defeated' and by whom?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Komensky: A 'prayer' battle?
Here we see Father Davis in the left-hand corner. He opens with a viciously placed 'Hail Mary'. Pastor Jones is on our right-hand side. He counters with with a bout of improvised prayer. The audience roars!
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I keep getting drawn to these threads like a moth to a candle.
There's nothing baffling about it.
It's symptomatic of the functional dualism that is typical of the "spiritual warfare" movement popularised by the likes of C. Peter Wagner.
Once again, I can't think of a single instance in scripture where anyone is described as "losing" a "prayer battle".
This is magic by any other name. It's also terribly guilt and paranoia-inducing. Run away.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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anne
Shipmate
# 73
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Posted
However directive we sometimes become in prayer, the beginning and the end (and, on a good day, the middle) is surely 'Thy will be done' (IMHO.)
If that is the case, then how can we 'lose a prayer battle?'
Am I too simplistic?
Anne
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TomOfTarsus
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# 3053
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Posted
Oh, boy. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) I'm with Eutychus here. What a sad thing, to think that a saint relieved of their suffering and ushered into the presence of the Lord, is the result of "losing a prayer battle." I can understand praying for healing, and have done so many times, but sooner or later, life is going to kill us all. And if we are to believe the Scriptures, the dead one is better off; as a matter of fact, they are then more fully alive than we are!
So at some point, are we not being selfish? Or egotistical, trying to show off our "faith muscles?" Is it Satan and his demons that killed the cancer-stricken one, or somehow prevented the prayers from being heard or answered? It seems insane.
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By grace are ye saved through faith... not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ... ordained that we should walk in them.
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Yerevan
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# 10383
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Posted
Does that mean that Jesus 'lost a prayer battle' in the Garden of Gethsemane because the crucifixion still happened?
I would be curious to know who came out with that one, just so that I can avoid them like the plague.
[ 30. May 2012, 13:30: Message edited by: Yerevan ]
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
A prominent figure in the charismatic scene in London described (just yesterday) how after someone we knew died of cancer that we 'had lost a prayer battle'. A 'prayer' battle? With whom? If 'we' lost, who won?
Does this baffle others, or is it just me?
Thanks you in advance,
K.
To say that 'we' lost is pretty lousy doctrine (IMHO). I thought we were supposed to trust in God's strength and occasionally, reluctantly and downright angrily, accept that events here on Earth don't turn out as we would have liked.
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Once again, I can't think of a single instance in scripture where anyone is described as "losing" a "prayer battle".
It isn't quite the language of 'prayer battle' but there is Ephesians 6:10-17, in which verse 12 says:
quote:
For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.
Add this to the fact that whenever Jesus and the disciples healed people in the Bible, they didn't ask God to heal the person but prayed directly 'Be healed', 'Demon, leave this person' etc. I think you can use these passages to start building a reasonable 'prayer as battle' theology.
It also solves the apparent paradox in charismatic theology of God not healing everyone who gets prayed for, leading to a lot of horrible things getting explained away as part of God's greater purposes. I know about Paul's 'thorn in the flesh' so I'm okay with some suffering being within God's will, but I find the 'losing a prayer battle' concept more harmonious with God's overall character as revealed by Jesus.
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Once again, I can't think of a single instance in scripture where anyone is described as "losing" a "prayer battle".
It isn't quite the language of 'prayer battle' but there is Ephesians 6:10-17, in which verse 12 says:
quote:
For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.
Add this to the fact that whenever Jesus and the disciples healed people in the Bible, they didn't ask God to heal the person but prayed directly 'Be healed', 'Demon, leave this person' etc. I think you can use these passages to start building a reasonable 'prayer as battle' theology.
It also solves the apparent paradox in charismatic theology of God not healing everyone who gets prayed for, leading to a lot of horrible things getting explained away as part of God's greater purposes. I know about Paul's 'thorn in the flesh' so I'm okay with some suffering being within God's will, but I find the 'losing a prayer battle' concept more harmonious with God's overall character as revealed by Jesus.
What?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
One of the things I most dislike about "prayer battle" imagery (aside from the fact that that terminology is so often used by American culture warriors who think that anyone who disagrees with them is the spawn of Satan) is the idea that one can manipulate God into doing what one wants by praying the "right way." It smacks of magickal thinking. (I was going to say spellcasting, but my pagan friends would point out that there's a whole 'nother dynamic that goes into their understanding of that practice.)
And, as noted -- what does it say to people who pray fervently for a particular outcome, when that outcome doesn't happen?
It just seems unnecessarily bellicose and presumptuous to me.
Even creepier: People who pray that God will "hedge in" people whom they don't particularly like...maybe because I've heard it used, not in the perhaps more understandable situation of a self-or-other-dangerous individual, but in a political context...you know, please, God, build a hedge around Teh Libruls/Obama/whomever. I really have a hard time understanding why the people who pray this way think what they do is fine but what pagans do by banishing or cursing or protection spells is wrong.
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Of course I accept that Christians are, in some way, engaged in a spiritual battle. But prayer is not something you employ against someone—note how even those passages you cite, we are asked to pray for everyone. So back to my point, if we pray for someone who dies, how have we been 'defeated' and by whom?
K.
I'd have thought that was fairly obvious - the Devil.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Once again, I can't think of a single instance in scripture where anyone is described as "losing" a "prayer battle".
It isn't quite the language of 'prayer battle' but there is Ephesians 6:10-17
Where does that say anything about losing? Besides, it's a metaphor even if it's one grounded in truth. The emphasis is not on the mechanics of the struggle but on the fact that it's not against flesh and blood. Essentially, Paul is saying "attack the issue not the person".
quote:
Add this to the fact that whenever Jesus and the disciples healed people in the Bible, they didn't ask God to heal the person but prayed directly 'Be healed', 'Demon, leave this person' etc. I think you can use these passages to start building a reasonable 'prayer as battle' theology.
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif) Where is the "prayer battle" there?. As in my "shirt ironing" illustration and in my contributions to many other debates on healing here, praying is precisely what they didn't do (or are at least not recorded as doing). They just healed, delivered and so on.
The one conceivable exception (and which rather proves my point above) is when Jesus says "this kind can come out only by prayer". And that's hardly a clear basis on which to build up ministries teaching things like the need to eat meat before engaging in deliverance (justification: Elijah was fed by ravens before he confronted the prophets of Baal, and no I'm not making this up).
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
But if your theology is a Theology of Glory, as opposed to the Theology of the Cross, there's not a lot of room for failure. You're supposed to be "living in Christian victory" and having your prayers all answered positively, right?
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Simul iustus et peccator
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I'd have thought that was fairly obvious - the Devil.
So every time somebody dies, the devil has won?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
...the idea that one can manipulate God into doing what one wants by praying the "right way."
I think the point about the 'prayer battle' language and theology is precisely that it isn't about manipulating God; it's about fighting against the enemies of God (i.e. spiritual powers, not 'teh libruls', 'teh gays' etc.!) using the weapons and armour given to us by God.
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Where is the "prayer battle" there?. As in my "shirt ironing" illustration and in my contributions to many other debates on healing here, praying is precisely what they didn't do (or are at least not recorded as doing). They just healed, delivered and so on.
I meant the 'battle' part more than the 'prayer' part, I suppose. I was being a bit loose in my use of the word 'prayer' to include things like healing and deliverance - guessing that the person Komensky referred to in the thread starter was doing the same thing.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
This still doesn't tell me where in Scripture we find the idea of losing a "prayer battle".
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I was being a bit loose in my use of the word 'prayer' to include things like healing and deliverance - guessing that the person Komensky referred to in the thread starter was doing the same thing.
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
Maybe they were, but I find it astounding that so many people seem to confuse the idea of praying for something to happen with actually doing it. Maybe their homes are filled with heaps of washing waiting to be ironed while they pray for it to be ironed and tell everyone they have spent all night ironing? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
If one is "praying for healing" one is doing just that. One is not healing. How complicated can this be?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I'd have thought that was fairly obvious - the Devil.
So every time somebody dies, the devil has won?
In a small way, I suppose every death represents a (temporary) victory for the Devil, if you want to strip in back to the basics of death being a result of sin which is the result of the Devil's temptation. Of course, that's just on one level; the flip side of that coin as someone has pointed out is that you have a saint ushered into glory and victory.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Of course I accept that Christians are, in some way, engaged in a spiritual battle. But prayer is not something you employ against someone—note how even those passages you cite, we are asked to pray for everyone. So back to my point, if we pray for someone who dies, how have we been 'defeated' and by whom?
K.
I'd have thought that was fairly obvious - the Devil.
Ultimately, yes. More specifically, the demonic Strongman in control of the prominent charismatic leader's geographical area. The Prince of London perhaps?
Doesn't anybody still read Frank Peretti? I don't but somebody must. This Present Darkness explains how this sort of thing works.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
In a small way, I suppose every death represents a (temporary) victory for the Devil, if you want to strip in back to the basics of death being a result of sin which is the result of the Devil's temptation. Of course, that's just on one level; the flip side of that coin as someone has pointed out is that you have a saint ushered into glory and victory.
Well for a start, some people think physical death pre-dated the Fall... I suppose that untimely death can be seen as a consequence of evil in the world but I'm not sure the Bible speaks of the devil winning anything at all.
To go on with, death is described as "the final enemy" by Paul but offhand I can't think of anywhere in the bible that dying itself is described either as a victory or as a defeat.
I think this whole win/lose terminology to refer to the way we interact with the spiritual realm is just a dualistic red herring that owes as much to Star Wars as to any serious theology.
[ 30. May 2012, 14:32: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
This still doesn't tell me where in Scripture we find the idea of losing a "prayer battle".
How about Jesus himself in Mark 6?
quote:
Then Jesus told them, “A prophet is honored everywhere except in his own hometown and among his relatives and his own family.” And because of their unbelief, he couldn’t do any miracles among them except to place his hands on a few sick people and heal them. And he was amazed at their unbelief.
Off the top of my head, I can't think of any specific failed healing or demon-removal or whatever in the New Testament. I'd say the possibility of losing a 'prayer battle' is just implicit in the idea of it being a battle. Jesus has won the ultimate victory but along the way to that victory there will be wins and losses.
Our theology has got to explain why there is suffering in a universe supposedly created and sustained by an all-powerful, all-loving being. For those of us who believe in the possibility of supernatural healing (and all the other spiritual gifts), we have to give some thought to why some are healed while others are not. Clearly not all people who get prayed for are actually healed.
Personally, I'm more comfortable with the spiritual warfare idea than with God choosing to heal some but not others in an apparently arbitrary way. It's pretty clear that other people's mileage may vary, I see from most of the other posts in this thread!
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
In a small way, I suppose every death represents a (temporary) victory for the Devil, if you want to strip in back to the basics of death being a result of sin which is the result of the Devil's temptation. Of course, that's just on one level; the flip side of that coin as someone has pointed out is that you have a saint ushered into glory and victory.
Well for a start, some people think physical death pre-dated the Fall...
Which people? I can't find that in Scripture and it runs totally counter to the whole 'wages of sin is death' Pauline theme. quote:
I suppose that untimely death can be seen as a consequence of evil in the world but I'm not sure the Bible speaks of the devil winning anything at all.
To go on with, death is described as "the final enemy" by Paul but offhand I can't think of anywhere in the bible that dying itself is described either as a victory or as a defeat.
Rev 21:4 speaks of there being no more death, mourning or pain.
quote:
I think this whole win/lose terminology to refer to the way we interact with the spiritual realm is just a dualistic red herring that owes as much to Star Wars as to any serious theology.
But the Christian worldview is of necessity dualist - not in a gnostic sense of course - not monist
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Personally, I'm more comfortable with the spiritual warfare idea than with God choosing to heal some but not others in an apparently arbitrary way.
We've been over this ground before and I don't have time to rehearse it here. But one question:
Do you think, then, that every death after prayer for healing is a "defeat"?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I'd have thought that was fairly obvious - the Devil.
So every time somebody dies, the devil has won?
Well not EVERY time. Jesus came so that we might have life and life abundantly. Sickness is not a part of the abundant life. With enough faith, immortality is possible. On the other hand, the longer we stay on the earth the longer we stay out of heaven. Why would anybody want to be immortal if it prevented them from going to heaven? At some point, even those with the most faith grow weary of being in this world and choose to shuffle off this mortal coil so they can be with Jesus in heaven. To make a long story short, with enough faith, we can be like the elves in LOTR.
Don't play dumb with me. You know all that. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
"Losing a prayer battle" I suppose is possible. If we get distracted, stop praying and backslide massively, that's losing a prayer battle.
If the demonized person beats us up, that might be losing a prayer battle.
If the non-Christian dies without ever giving their life to Jesus because we couldn't be bothered praying for them, that might be losing a prayer battle.
But if a Christian dies without backsliding, that is victory. Perfect healing happens by resurrection - healing in this life is only ever partial and temporary.
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I'd have thought that was fairly obvious - the Devil.
So every time somebody dies, the devil has won?
Well not EVERY time. Jesus came so that we might have life and life abundantly. Sickness is not a part of the abundant life. With enough faith, immortality is possible. On the other hand, the longer we stay on the earth the longer we stay out of heaven. Why would anybody want to be immortal if it prevented them from going to heaven? At some point, even those with the most faith grow weary of being in this world and choose to shuffle off this mortal coil so they can be with Jesus in heaven. To make a long story short, with enough faith, we can be like the elves in LOTR.
Don't play dumb with me. You know all that.
This smells like another thread, but what do you mean by 'enough' faith? Faith isn't a magic potion—if you can somehow 'get' enough of it, all the magic will start to happen! Is the magic not happening for you? Well then, you need more 'faith' (now available in sachets!), etc....
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Er...I think BA was being sarcastic.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Matt Black: You can't have life on earth without death. It's illogical to think that at some point everything on the planet was being "fruitful and multiplying" and not dying. You can't have unlimited life within the parameters of limited resources for that life.
Unless Christians can find a way to explain "the wages of sin is death" in a way other than literal (and I think that's possible, at least if you're not a fundamentalist), it's just another example of the Christian community promoting an untenable anti-science worldview.
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Of course, it isn't magic. Magic is of the Devil. Obviously, faith is quantifiable and the more faith you have the greater things you can do. The Bible is a book of promises. We are who it says we are. We can be who it says we can be. We can do what it says we can do. The Devil and his demons try to prevent us from claiming the promises and blessings God made available to us through Jesus sacrificial death on the cross. Faith is our shield against the spiritual attacks of the Devil and his demons. Quoting scripture, as Jesus did in the wilderness, is our offensive weapon. Prayer is the way we engage in spiritual warfare with the Devil and his demons. Hence, you have a prayer battle that can be lost through lack of faith.
Simple ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Which people?
The person I was thinking of was Roger Forster in his book Reason and Faith. I'll dig out some quotes if you like. quote:
I can't find that in Scripture and it runs totally counter to the whole 'wages of sin is death' Pauline theme.
What LutheranChik said. Besides, your Bible doubtless records that when Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they did not keel over on the spot. I think they "died" though.
quote:
Rev 21:4 speaks of there being no more death, mourning or pain.
Amen. But also Where oh where does that say that physical death per se is either victory or defeat?
quote:
But the Christian worldview is of necessity dualist - not in a gnostic sense of course - not monist
Possibly it's me who is using terminology sloppily here. I don't believe that christianity is dualistic in the sense that I do not believe we live in a world that is balanced on a knife-edge between Good™ and Evil™ and that actions on our part can tip the balance one way or another - which is what I mean by the "Star Wars" view of life which I fear has infected charismaticism extensively.
I'm quite enamoured (if not totally convinced) by CS Lewis' image of the tiniest bird in heaven being capable of swallonwing up all the evil in the world without that having the slightest impact on it. Or, to quote Lewis again, Lucifer is not the equal of God but if of anyone, Michael.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
If I recall correctly, when David Watson died John Wimber announced that it was a victory for the Devil. Mrs Watson was understandably annoyed at this, and Wimber later apologised and withdrew his remarks.
This whole way of thinking is quite opposite to that expounded by CS Lewis in The Screwtape Letters. There the devils want to keep the human alive, as then there is still a chance he will lose his faith. When the human dies his salvation is finally complete, there is angelic rejoicing, and the devils slink off defeated. I'm not sure that I accept Lewis' views here, but the contrast is stark.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
BA: "We can be who it says we can be. We can do what it says we can do."
Frank Sinatra: "Do be do be do."
More seriously:
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Matt Black: You can't have life on earth without death. It's illogical to think that at some point everything on the planet was being "fruitful and multiplying" and not dying. You can't have unlimited life within the parameters of limited resources for that life.
Unless Christians can find a way to explain "the wages of sin is death" in a way other than literal (and I think that's possible, at least if you're not a fundamentalist), it's just another example of the Christian community promoting an untenable anti-science worldview.
Then Rev 21:4 is effectively null and void too; (and this @ Eutychus too) I can't see any reference here to talking about purely spiritual death either unless one wishes to eisegete that and, if one does eliminate the physical, does that not run counter to Paul's discourse on the Resurrection of the Dead in I Cor 15?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
Wonder how they deal with this: Washington Post: Serpent-handling pastor dies from rattlesnake bite
From the Post article:
quote:
“I am looking for a great time this Sunday,” he wrote May 22. “It is going to be a homecoming like the old days. Good ’ole raised in the holler or mountain ridge running, Holy Ghost-filled speaking-in-tongues sign believers.”
Sounds like he did get his "homecoming", bless the poor man. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
He and Jesus probably had a good laugh, though.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Of course I accept that Christians are, in some way, engaged in a spiritual battle. But prayer is not something you employ against someone—note how even those passages you cite, we are asked to pray for everyone. So back to my point, if we pray for someone who dies, how have we been 'defeated' and by whom?
K.
Human beings are not considered to be the only 'someones' in the spiritual universe, though.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
If I recall correctly, when David Watson died John Wimber announced that it was a victory for the Devil. Mrs Watson was understandably annoyed at this, and Wimber later apologised and withdrew his remarks.
This whole way of thinking is quite opposite to that expounded by CS Lewis in The Screwtape Letters. There the devils want to keep the human alive, as then there is still a chance he will lose his faith. When the human dies his salvation is finally complete, there is angelic rejoicing, and the devils slink off defeated. I'm not sure that I accept Lewis' views here, but the contrast is stark.
I would agree, but can't it be 'both/and' rather than 'either/or'?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I think 1 Cor 15 and anywhere else in the Bible after Gen 3 necessarily describe physical death as we now experience it in our fallen world, regardless of whether or not it existed prior to the Fall.
It now most certainly has an absurd aspect (in the philosophical sense of the word), especially when it's untimely, and it remains "the last enemy". But that does not mean that death itself is to be viewed in terms of victory or defeat. Sentimentally, at a pinch, just possibly*, but not theologically, which is how the term was described as being used by the OP.
*(And even then, think about the implications of saying that somebody "lost their battle against cancer". Didn't they try hard enough? Are they too "letting the side down"?)
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Once again, I can't think of a single instance in scripture where anyone is described as "losing" a "prayer battle".
It isn't quite the language of 'prayer battle' but there is Ephesians 6:10-17
Where does that say anything about losing? Besides, it's a metaphor even if it's one grounded in truth. The emphasis is not on the mechanics of the struggle but on the fact that it's not against flesh and blood. Essentially, Paul is saying "attack the issue not the person".
No. Sorry, but no. It takes a massive and frankly bizarre twist of interpretation to treat that passage's references to 'not against flesh and blood' as saying fight against ISSUES.
It talks about fighting against enemies. If you have fights against enemies, you can lose fights.
Note that I'm not saying that the person referred to in the OP is correct in saying that a particular battle has been lost. But it's perfectly orthodox to talk about being in spiritual battles, and it takes a real determination to look at wording about principalities and powers and claim 'he really just means tough issues'.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Are we then to say that cancer is empirically a 'good thing'? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) [reply to Eutychus]
[ 30. May 2012, 15:41: Message edited by: Matt Black ]
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It takes a massive and frankly bizarre twist of interpretation to treat that passage's references to 'not against flesh and blood' as saying fight against ISSUES.
Well, perhaps I was stretching it too far in the hope of making a Ship reference, but nonetheless I think that's the idea.
As I see it the point is that we are in a struggle. Paul has just been talking about human relationships. He is now saying that things will be tough, but that this should not pull us down into bickering and falling out. Rather we should remember that the real problem is this fallen world with its fallen institutions, authorities, thought patterns and so on.
The emphasis is on ensuring our struggle is directed at the right sort of target. That's all. It's not about how many "wins" or "losses" we can clock up, any more than Jesus telling us to be "fishers of men" means we should debate fly-fishing vs. nets or check how many fish we've landed.
Matt Black, I have no idea why you think I think cancer is a good thing. What I'm questioning is the popular phraseology that implies that victims have "lost a battle" if they die. In the light od some of the reasoning in this thread, that could be taken as suggesting that if they had only done the right thing, or prayed the right prayer, or been taken to the right ministry, they or their friends and family could have "won".
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by orfeo:
No. Sorry, but no. It takes a massive and frankly bizarre twist of interpretation to treat that passage's references to 'not against flesh and blood' as saying fight against ISSUES.
It talks about fighting against enemies. If you have fights against enemies, you can lose fights.
Note that I'm not saying that the person referred to in the OP is correct in saying that a particular battle has been lost. But it's perfectly orthodox to talk about being in spiritual battles, and it takes a real determination to look at wording about principalities and powers and claim 'he really just means tough issues'.
I think you are right. Paul clearly believes he and other Christians were engaged in battle with spiritual forces. Verses 19 and 20 hint at the possibility that the spiritual forces might win. The spiritual forces would win if they prevented Paul from boldly proclaiming the gospel not by taking Paul's life.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Matt Black, I have no idea why you think I think cancer is a good thing. What I'm questioning is the popular phraseology that implies that victims have "lost a battle" if they die. In the light od some of the reasoning in this thread, that could be taken as suggesting that if they had only done the right thing, or prayed the right prayer, or been taken to the right ministry, they or their friends and family could have "won".
I'm glad you clarify that, empirically*, it's not a good thing, in which case why not refer to a death by cancer as an empirical* defeat? Cancer patients whom I've known have found it helpful to refer to the existence of their condition as a 'battle'; are we to rob them of using that terminology?
*Of course, an 'untimely' death may be a Good Thing™ in the grand scheme of things as hinted by C S Lewis in Screwtape, for example where the deceased might have lost his/her faith had s/he lived. As I type, I'm reminded of that bastion of theological wisdom, Marvel Comics, and their X-Men story "What if Phoenix hadn't died?"
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky
...prayer is not something you employ against someone—note how even those passages you cite, we are asked to pray for everyone.
I think prayer can be against someone - and by "someone" I don't just mean the devil or demons, but certain human beings. The prayers of imprecation in the Psalms are a good example. Are they still relevant for today? The author of The Prayer of Revenge seems to think so (even within the context of pursuing forgiveness), and he makes some valid points about the need to pray to God for justice against those who are wilfully unrepentant.
The author - Doug Schmidt - compares the following two prayers and asks us which is the more "godly"? :
A: “O Lord, Remember not only the men and women of good will, but also those of ill will. But do not remember all of the suffering they have inflicted upon us: Instead remember the fruits we have borne because of this suffering, our fellowship, our loyalty to one another, our humility, our courage, our generosity, the greatness of heart that has grown from this trouble. When our persecutors come to be judged by You, let all of these fruits that we have borne be their forgiveness.”
B: Destroy thou them, O God.
Let their way be dark and slippery. May ruin overtake them by surprise ... may they fall into the pit, to their ruin.
In your faithfulness destroy them. Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell.
Consume them in wrath, consume them that they may not be.
Let them be blotted out of the book of the living.. And so on...
Prayer 'A' was written by a prisoner of Ravensbruck concentration camp, and left by the body of a dead child.
Prayer 'B' is a selection of some of David's prayers as recorded in the Psalms. (Remember that David was a "man after God's own heart".)
I'll leave it there without any more comment, other than to say that clearly the Bible is full of prayers against people.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
*(And even then, think about the implications of saying that somebody "lost their battle against cancer". Didn't they try hard enough? Are they too "letting the side down"?)
I want to pick up on this point because I think it's important, and difficult. Thinking aloud a bit here, but if one grants the possibility of miraculous healing then there must be some reason why any particular person does not get healed. I'm not saying we should try and discern what that reason is in any specific case but, speaking generally, here are some of the options I can think of:
1) Those praying lost some kind of spiritual battle (through lack of faith, persistence or whatever)
2) The deceased didn't have enough faith
3) God's will was that the person died
Assuming God is both willing and capable of intervening in any situation, what options have I missed? As I see it, each of the above options lead to some disturbing conclusions.
For those people who can set aside problems like this and put them into that box marked 'mysteries that I'll let slide', I'm rather jealous! I can't seem to do that very easily...
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Destroy thou them, O God.
Let their way be dark and slippery. May ruin overtake them by surprise ... may they fall into the pit, to their ruin.
In your faithfulness destroy them. Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell.
Consume them in wrath, consume them that they may not be.
Let them be blotted out of the book of the living..
...a selection of some of David's prayers as recorded in the Psalms. (Remember that David was a "man after God's own heart".)
Maybe it's a tangent but I don't think that these prayers being in the Bible means it's necessarily a good thing for us to pray like this. Sure, the fact that David prayed like this at times didn't stop him from being a 'man after God's own heart' but not everything David did was of the Lord. Perhaps these prayers of imprecation (good word, btw) fall in to that category.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Thinking aloud a bit here, but if one grants the possibility of miraculous healing then there must be some reason why any particular person does not get healed.
I have to go off and lead a RL Bible study shortly. One of the verses we'll be reading is John 6:26-27
quote:
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you."
When God does a miracle, we're supposed to ponder on what it points to, not work out how to get the next one.
When no miracle occurs, no amount of amateur trouble-shooting will help us. That line of reasoning takes us straight into the territory of Job's comforters. And whether you like it or not, the end of that road is essentially God turning up and saying "shut up, you guys are so far out in left field you don't even know where the ball park is any more. Repent quick."
Matt Black, I'm really not convinced that all cancer sufferers agree with you. But I really don't feel qualified to comment on how others experience their suffering.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
When God does a miracle, we're supposed to ponder on what it points to, not work out how to get the next one.
I was trying to avoid falling in to this trap; I fully agree that it's not helpful to speculate as to the reasons why a particular person has or has not recovered from illness. But I'm not sure that means we should avoid the whole issue in the general sense, that's all.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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