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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: What Counts as a Genuine Message from God?
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Jason Zarri
Apprentice
# 15248
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Posted
Here are some thoughts about what makes something a genuine message from God, and how you could tell.
Suppose Fred is a Christian who is facing a moral dilemma, and prays to God for advice. Now, we commonly suppose that some apparent messages from God are real, and others not. So how is someone like Fred to know which messages are really from God and which are not?
However, I think this way of thinking may presuppose a concept of God that is too anthropomorphic. Granted, if God exists He wouldn't have a bodily mouth or anything like that, and I think most reflective theists realize that. But once we set aside such a picture, if we grant that God created (and sustains) all things, what would the distinction between something's being a genuine message from God and its being a spurious one consist in?
Here it is tempting to think that, though God doesn’t speak with a bodily mouth, He still engages in some spiritual (immaterial) activity that we would perceive as a voice giving advice, or at least as a feeling that we should do such-and-such. This could be understood in different ways, of course, but if we interpret it as meaning that in order to give advice God has to do something outside of the normal course of nature, I think it is false. If all good things come from God, and the advice that Fred (thinks he) got through prayer was good moral advice, it seems it follows that the advice must have come from God in some sense. What Fred "heard" may be the result of natural processes rather that a miraculous, special revelation to him, but if one believes in Divine Providence, that need not make it any less of a message from God. For Fred's receiving that advice at that time, though by means of certain natural processes, could still on this view have been part of God's eternal plan. Arguably, all Fred really needs to know in order to tell that the message is genuine is that God exists, that God is benevolent, and that the moral advice he got was sound.
[ 09. June 2012, 21:56: Message edited by: Jason Zarri ]
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Check out the free studying resource Open Source Study Notes, where anyone can contribute their study notes: http://www.scholardarity.com/?page_id=1942
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angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884
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Posted
Isn't the problem Fred has one of discerning the soundness of the advice? He would need an external (to himself) means of assessing this. This could be the Bible and/or fellow Christians, present and past. What do they have to say on the topic at hand?
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"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"
Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
I tend to try to ignore the ones that go 'DO IT. DO IT NOW', not to mention 'KILL, KILL, SEEK AND DESTROY'...
In my more lucid moments, I rationalise this partiality on my part by remembering the old Crusader chorus 'the fruits of the spirit are love joy peace, patience goodness kindness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control; for such there is no law' (Gal 5, I think). Hence if Fred places his trust in the Christian God, then he'd do well to test his 'messages' along these lines.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290
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Posted
Welcome, Jason
if I understand your point correctly, it reminds me of this:
"…It's like the joke about the man who has been notified that his "house is going to be flooded and he needs to get out of the house. He says no I don't have to, God is going to take care of me. Then the flood starts to rise and a sheriff comes along and tells him to get out. The man says no, God is going to save me. So, the floods continue to rise, and he climbs on top of the house. A boat comes along and he's told to climb into the boat. He says, no, no , God is going to save me. Finally, a helicopter comes along and they lower the net to rescue him. The man says, no, no, God is going to save me! Well, the man drowns and goes to heaven. When he gets to heaven he says to God, "why didn't you save me?" God says, "I sent the sheriff, I sent a boat, I sent a helicopter, what more did you want me to do?"
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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain
Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by angelfish:
Isn't the problem Fred has one of discerning the soundness of the advice? He would need an external (to himself) means of assessing this. This could be the Bible and/or fellow Christians, present and past. What do they have to say on the topic at hand?
I recall my (believer) mother claiming that someone she knew sought advice by opening the Bible randomly and trusting what his eye fell upon as a message from God.
Apparently, finding a particular problem intractable he resorted to this device; he opened the book, glanced down and read the latter part of Luke 10:37 (He) went and hanged himself . Deciding that this was unhelpful he decided to have a second go – result? – the end of Luke 10:37 Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
As far as other Christians goes, aren’t you moving exactly the same problem one step back?
Mind you, one of the consequences of Christianity is that you can probably find both a verse and a professed believer who will agree with whatever you want to do.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
I would imagine any genuine message from the Almighty would come in a totally unexpected way, which would cause some doubt, unless it was a dramatic "Damascus experience". It would therefore need to be tested. Sometimes there are wise and guided elders who can advise. The Church Fathers and the Orthodox hesychast tradition have much to say about "true" and "delusory" spiritual experiences. Ditto the genuine Western Christian mystic tradition as embodied in the like of St John of the Cross and St Theresa of Avila. The material is all there: you just need to take the trouble to find it.
As mark_in_manchester - not an unwise man IMO - suggests, "revelations" which basically do nothing but destroy can be discounted at source. Christianity is about building up. St Francis of Assisi, John Wesley etc. left something worthwhile behind them to assist others. False visionaries leave only destruction in their wake.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Hmm, very interesting and thoughtful OP, which I've read several times. As a non-believer, my response is fairly simple! All the credit or opprobrium for 'God's advice'should be attributed to the evolved human brain. However, the wide range of expert views expressed on this forum always provokes for me new avenues of thinking and, I hope, understanding.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
As a nonbeliever my bias is obvious. At the risk of misquoting a religion I don't know it's worth contemplating the Zen saying "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
I was once attending a local Convention at which Terry Virgo was preaching. I felt I had a word from God, wrote it down and passed it up to my own Pastor who was on the platform with other Pastor-type bigwigs.
He passed it to Terry V, who read it out, and then spat out, rather nastily, I thought "You have just ruined my whole message".
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
So, Evensong, what counts as a genuine massage from God?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
I was once attending a local Convention at which Terry Virgo was preaching. I felt I had a word from God, wrote it down and passed it up to my own Pastor who was on the platform with other Pastor-type bigwigs.
He passed it to Terry V, who read it out, and then spat out, rather nastily, I thought "You have just ruined my whole message".
'He has put down the mighty from their seat' (Magnificat) springs to mind! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I should think that any message from God which just happens to agree exactly with what you want to do anyway, is probably false. I should imagine genuine ones would be at least a little left field and contain some sort of challenge.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I keep reading the thread title as:
What Counts as a Genuine Massage from God?
Perhaps the message you are receiving is that someone definitely needs their ego massaged.
I would seek out every possible legitimate source of guidance before acting on that message.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
So, Evensong, what counts as a genuine massage from God?
Why. A heavenly one of course!
(Preferably delivered with firm (yet gentle) hands, hot rocks and fragrant oils).
Why. I do believe God is telling me it's time for another massage.
As this produces the fruits of the spirit through the body, no doubt it is genuine.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I keep reading the thread title as:
What Counts as a Genuine Massage from God?
Perhaps the message you are receiving is that someone definitely needs their ego massaged.
Jason Zarri doesn't strike me that way.
Or were you referring to me?
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Are you sure he wasn't teasing, Nicodemia, rather than being nasty?
I've seen similar things to this (although it wasn't me writing it down) and the response strikes me as something of a trope - a convention if you like ie. this is what I was going to say, but now God has spoken through someone else and contradicted me ... (cue laughter or applause).
I can't say, because I wasn't there, but that's the way I've seen this sort of thing play out at times.
On the OP - well, discernment (like anything else worthwhile) is hard work. These days I'm less interested in putative words from God and so on, although I believe they can happen. I'm more interested in developing a Christlike and biblical way of thinking and applying that to my everyday life - and that's a heck of a lot harder and takes a lot more effort - effort I can't always be bothered to apply if I'm honest ...
But there are no short-cuts.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
What Counts as a Genuine Message from God ?
A mysterious E-mail or text that ends --- " Peace and Blessings from God xx "
I would say that's genuine ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
<cue the tumble-weed>
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
This is a true story:
Recently I was told of a church where the minister informed the congregation that God had told him there should be no singing in the church for four weeks.
One of his member told him that God had told her quite the reverse.
Was God trying to make trouble?
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
It's sad when people play who-has-the-bigger-willy? with messages from God. That's really taking the Lord's name in vain. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
rolyn has it, even 'tho he was joking.
God doesn't give advice or things. God gives us himself.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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footwasher
Shipmate
# 15599
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Posted
What's needed to be said has already been said. Seek first the Kingdom of God. He's not going to send instructions on what jobs to take or other mundane stuff. He refused to interfere in a property dispute between two Israelites.
Not that He's going to ignore your daily needs. He knows what the support system required is, and will take care of the logistics
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Ship's crimp
Posts: 927 | From: pearl o' the orient | Registered: Apr 2010
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Jason Zarri
Apprentice
# 15248
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Posted
Hi Jahlove,
Yes, that's part of it. I think that messages from God can come through perfectly natural means. My other point follows from that together with the assumption that all good things come from God: Suppose someone were to claim that the sound moral advice that Fred got through prayer was a genuine message from God, while the moral advice that someone else, say Ted, got through prayer was, though sound, the result of coincidence or mere happenstance, not really from God. My claim is that if you accept that God can act through perfectly natural means and that all good things come from God, then saying that Fred received a message from God while Ted didn't makes no sense. If the moral advice Fred gets counts as a message from God, then the moral advice Ted gets should too: There is nothing metaphysically "special" that God does for Fred but not for Ted.
Thanks to everyone else for your responses! I'll try to get to them soon.
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Check out the free studying resource Open Source Study Notes, where anyone can contribute their study notes: http://www.scholardarity.com/?page_id=1942
Posts: 19 | Registered: Oct 2009
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angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884
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Posted
Isn't there a paradox at the heart of your example, Jason Zarri? If God operates through natural means as well as supernatural, then the natural operations are no less God than the supernatural ones. It makes no sense to say "when God speaks to you mthrough natural means, He is not speaking to you."
One of the most powerful messages from God I received was through an atheist.
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"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"
Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
rolyn has it, even 'tho he was joking.
God doesn't give advice or things. God gives us himself.
And what's the use of that? If I'm hungry and cold, then I don't want God standing round looking at me, I want Him to do something about it. If I need advice, similarly. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) Of course if the god you worship isn't capable of organising some food and warmth, then on the whole I'm not interested in its advice either.
When it's reported:
quote:
6 Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia. 7 When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to. 8 So they passed by Mysia and went down to Troas. 9 During the night Paul had a vision of a man of Macedonia standing and begging him, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.” 10 After Paul had seen the vision, we got ready at once to leave for Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them.
Acts 16:6-10
what are we to make of that? Is Luke creating the story? (note it's an 'us' passage - Luke's actually there at the time.) Is Paul deluded? Has God stopped working like that?
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
rolyn has it, even 'tho he was joking.
God doesn't give advice or things. God gives us himself.
And what's the use of that? If I'm hungry and cold, then I don't want God standing round looking at me, I want Him to do something about it.
You will also notice that he doesn't, all round the world people go hungry and cold.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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WhateverTheySay
Shipmate
# 16598
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Posted
The church I used to attend as a teenager always said that we can know if it is God communicating with us by knowing the Bible. This does make sense to me.
The spiritual experiences I have had were always good (even if a little scary and confusing before I realised it was God, I was atheist until these started). I saw them a positive guide. Whereas the negative messages I get (usually the result of an illness I have) are more likely to scare me or be controlling or get me to be self destructive. I always knew these messages were not from God because of the negative impact they have on me, and if they were spiritual (which they turned out not to be) then they were from Satan.
These days I try to ignore the bad messages. I would be far more inclined to at least try to follow the good messages, though it has been a while since I last had one. Now must not be the time I need this direction.
I hope this makes at least some sense. Apologies if not. I don't currently have much confidence in my ability to express myself, but this is a topic I really wanted to reply to.
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I'm not lost, I just don't know where I am going
Posts: 872 | From: Lost in Space, without a map | Registered: Aug 2011
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
You may conclude years later that some particular event was indeed a message from God. I am suspicious of an immediate claim of this sort.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
I'm sometimes inclined to think that God is sending all of us messages all of the time . Thus explaining the order of our own behaviour, and that of the world around us.
Unfortunately this argument usually breaks down with the whole 'why do bad things happen' impasse .
This leaves the direct message from God to an individual , of the kind we read in Scripture . These may well exist, and may well genuine . The only problem being that the minute such a message is divulged it will be doubted by others.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Your example is about someone with a moral dilemma asking for guidance from God through prayer, before he makes his own decision and takes with it the full burden of responsibility for its consequences.
I believe that God is constantly inviting everyone to take the good advice he gives in our daily lives through all manner of means of communication: the teachings and example of Jesus, the Bible, the Church, other people, directly through the Holy Spirit, etc. If we take it, we do the right thing and, as others have said, we will see by the beneficial results for the whole community.
This is not the same thing as a message from God imv, which will be about what God wants of us rather than what we want of God. Our calling, for example, is a message from God which invites us to serve in a specific way, or we may be invited to visit someone or go somewhere unusual, so that we may be of service. This kind of message requires more rigorous discernment, in relation to its potential consequences, and should be incorporated within the work of the whole community of believers.
The most important questions for discernment imo are: 'Will this glorify God?' and 'Will it demonstrate our love for God and for other people?'
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
My last post cross-posted with that of rolyn, but I missed the edit window.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
rolyn has it, even 'tho he was joking.
God doesn't give advice or things. God gives us himself.
And what's the use of that? If I'm hungry and cold, then I don't want God standing round looking at me, I want Him to do something about it.
You will also notice that he doesn't, all round the world people go hungry and cold.
OK - so please engage with the testimony I repeated from Acts. Is Luke making it up? Is Paul deluded?
The existence of suffering in this present world is a persistent problem - but concluding that because of it God is not active in the world is flawed; there ARE justifications that hold these two together...
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
I recall my (believer) mother claiming that someone she knew sought advice by opening the Bible randomly and trusting what his eye fell upon as a message from God.
Apparently, finding a particular problem intractable he resorted to this device; he opened the book, glanced down and read the latter part of Luke 10:37 (He) went and hanged himself . Deciding that this was unhelpful he decided to have a second go – result? – the end of Luke 10:37 Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
This is, of course, a very old story (I heard it many times as a child in sermon illustrations) - I'm sure it never happened. The story's meant to discourage people from using the Bible like it's a ouija board or magic 8-ball.
I think it helps, if you want to know what messages are from God, to know God. This is done both through personal devotion & Bible reading, and participating in worship services with other Christians where the Bible is read/proclaimed. If someone tried to tell you your mother said something you know she would never say, you would probably rely on your knowledge of your mother (which, BTW, is not the same sense of 'knowledge' as when you say, e.g., that you 'know' your alphabet or even your Bible [as in knowing its contents]) rather than believe the second-hand report.
quote:
Originally posted by angelfish:
One of the most powerful messages from God I received was through an atheist.
I had a similar experience with a song that was by no means "Christian."
ETA: I've had other, more powerful, "messages from God," though. Rather personal.
[ 10. June 2012, 20:44: Message edited by: churchgeek ]
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
You will also notice that he doesn't, all round the world people go hungry and cold.
It could be that people aren't listening or are ignoring God's message to feed and clothe them?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I keep reading the thread title as:
What Counts as a Genuine Massage from God?
Perhaps the message you are receiving is that someone definitely needs their ego massaged.
Jason Zarri doesn't strike me that way.
Or were you referring to me?
To anyone who claims such a "message". A play on words, like yours. There are, indeed, several extra-large egos out there claiming direct messages from the Divine. Do you? Certainly not on SOF as far as I'm aware. Several extremely forthright and contestable opinions, but no "revelation".
BTW, you left out my second sentence, which, if I had a (not directly revealed) "message" was it.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
I think I see your point.
Answer "No".
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
rolyn has it, even 'tho he was joking.
God doesn't give advice or things. God gives us himself.
And what's the use of that? If I'm hungry and cold, then I don't want God standing round looking at me, I want Him to do something about it.
You will also notice that he doesn't, all round the world people go hungry and cold.
AFAIK, that's because other people are ignoring the very clear messages they are getting from God: "Oi you! Stop hoarding and share with those people, you idiot!"
As in most of the Prophets, etc.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
rolyn has it, even 'tho he was joking.
God doesn't give advice or things. God gives us himself.
And what's the use of that? If I'm hungry and cold, then I don't want God standing round looking at me, I want Him to do something about it.
You will also notice that he doesn't, all round the world people go hungry and cold.
AFAIK, that's because other people are ignoring the very clear messages they are getting from God: "Oi you! Stop hoarding and share with those people, you idiot!"
As in most of the Prophets, etc.
Yes - but it's up to people do the sharing. Nothing falls out of the sky to feed the hungry in parched lands.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
One answer to the o/p: visions of Christ to people who don't believe in him.
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'
Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Manna falling from the sky is not the only (or most realistic) way to provide for someone. If God chooses (as he usually does) to work through human beings as his agents, they are going to need to be open to what he says, or everybody will be in a world of hurt. But it won't be God's fault if the person who was supposed to give me my stipend decided to take it to the casino instead. Unless we want to blame him for not creating a totally infantilized world.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
I'm not one to feel as if I'm being bombarded with messages from the Almighty. But on the occasions when I did feel that to be the case the messages were:
1. Unsolicited.
2. Well within the bounds of Christian orthodoxy (no mystic crystal revelations).
3. Messages that actually made my life more difficult, not easier.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
I suspect that at least a partial answer to the question is bound up in emotion and subjectivity. As with the 'speaking in tongues' thread, if someone believes it, there's no arguing with them.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
To add to what angelfish and others have posted, and to offer a different point of view (for whatever it's worth):
In the New Church, we are big on looking for symbolism in the Bible, and it occurred to me today to see this thread in relation to the story of God calling Moses and Aaron to deliver the Israelites from slavery in Egypt.
On the one hand, Exodus presents Moses as the person with the face-to-face relationship with God, and as the person who received the Ten Commandments directly from God, and I think he can be taken as a symbol of our perception or discernment of Truth coming directly from God. Furthermore, the fact that Moses had a speech impediment can be taken as a representation of the fact that Divine Truth received directly from God is ineffable and above our understanding, and is therefore inarticulate and difficult for us to comprehend.
On the other hand, Exodus presents Aaron as Moses' spokesperson and as the first Tabernacle high priest, and I think he can be taken as a symbol of our understanding of what we learn from the organized Church and from other sources we find in the world around us. The fact that Aaron had to ask questions of God and look for the answers in the Urim and Thummim of the breast plate, and that he is the one who directed the worship of the golden calf, can be taken as a representation of the fact that truth received through human agency requires effort and learning, and is subject to error.
But God used both Moses and Aaron together to deliver the Israelites from Egypt and lead them to the Promised Land. My take from all this is that we need to look directly to God for discernment and at the same time look to organized religion (and the Bible itself) for doctrine in order to have the best hope of understanding what God wants of us.
But as I say, I offer this only for whatever it's worth to whoever reads it.
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
I think, Jason, it would depend a lot on what you meant by "message".
Going to Christianity, the revelation would be Jesus, about whose life we learn much from the Bible, not regarded in the most ancient Church tradition as being an inspired word-for-word text as Muslims see the Quran, but of divine inspiration but mediated through different authors and recognised and interpreted through the life of the Church.
I guess it would depend on how you see the Church and what authority you give to it. Has it continued through from earliest times and preserved that original tradition in living form and therefore can it still provide guidance for people or was the tradition distorted and did the Church need to be reborn anew?
These are matters for endless debate and will go on forever. I think most Christians would say the Bible, the Church and some decent example/guidance at certain times might provide us with what we need to live decent, moral lives.
Many great Christian saints have had amazing spiritual experiences, even "revelations" as the ones at Lourdes, Fatima etc. I guess the test would be whether the "revelation" was considered to be in harmony with Church tradition or not. Individual guidance would be fine, even specific "messages" such as those of Fatima as long as they did not provide a new "scripture" or "revelation" which appeared to supersede the Christian tradition.
I would downplay the "revelations" or "messages" certain televangelists get as they seem to be basically about giving them money, lots of money to supposedly "do God's will"; help enable "cures"etc.
Evensong was, I believe, having a dig at me for possibly indirectly alluding to a spiritual movement outside the Christian tradition. I can understand why and needed to assure her that, in this instance, that was not so, although I would now regard any post-Christian revelation or message with incredible caution.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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