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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Zach82, who made you the judge of my experiences?
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
In 2005, I was living in Honduras, and I couldn't really find a church where I'd feel comfortable, although I tried. In this time, I was very glad with Church of Fools, and I intensively participated in it.
Just before one of its scheduled services, I had a conversation with Simon in CoF, where he asked me to read a Psalm during the service. I answered that maybe it would be difficult for me, because just a couple of hours ago I'd heard that my brother (who was far away from me in Holland) had cancer. We talked a bit about it, he was very supporting, and he convinced me to read a Psalm anyway, and to try to make it a way to connect with God in this difficult moment.
The only Psalm I could think of at the moment was Psalm 23, and I read it in front of the people who were virtually present in CoF. Copying the verses of this Psalm one by one from an online Bible and pasting them in CoF's user interface was quite a task, especially when you're half teary-eyed, but I managed to do it. This was very important for me in trying to invoke God's help in this terrible moment, and it is by a distance the most cherished moment in my 10 years (minus 2 months) on the Ship.
In the discussion about virtual sacraments in Purg, I used this as an example that at least to me, the experience of online church can be very real. Zach82, you are perfectly entitled to disagree with this. Your ideas and mine of what a church is are probably quite different, and this will reflect in the way we think about the concept of virtual church. I respect that.
But what you're definitely not allowed to do, is to take this experience and call it 'some vague sense of spiritual fulfillment'. You're not the One who's entitled to judge what this experience was, and what it meant to me. Taking something that is so closely related to my brother's disease and belittling it in such a way is só below the waist, that I don't even know how to start. It definitely hurt.
Yesterday, I made a walk through a harbour area here in Mozambique. Somewhere in a corner, there was a shitty, oil-polluted piece of mud with some slimy leech-like creatures crawling around in it. You suck, filthier than they do.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
…Copying the verses of this Psalm one by one from an online Bible and pasting them in CoF's user interface was quite a task…
Not sure I'd call that 'reading the psalm'. But if it ended up being a major spiritual experience…more power to you.
(Have to say 'tedious' is what springs to my mind quicker than 'spiritual'.)
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
…Copying the verses of this Psalm one by one from an online Bible and pasting them in CoF's user interface was quite a task…
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
(Have to say 'tedious' is what springs to my mind quicker than 'spiritual'.)
Some would find reading out the bible in any form tedious. But perhaps if your brother has just been diagnosed with cancer the words of Psalm 23 might become a bit less tedious.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
Indeed if my brother had just been diagnosed with cancer I might well get my bible and read the 23rd Psalm for comfort. I doubt it would occur to me to copy and paste it for comfort.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Well, I get it.
He didn't copy/ paste it to comfort himself. He copy/ pasted it to serve others. He did it even though it was hard. The hard-ness of the job made the words more meaningful. In what way does that not qualify as a spiritual experience, because it happened mostly in the privacy of his home?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Koinonia*, Sine, koinonia
*Wikipedia gives this explanation: Koinonia is the anglicisation of a Greek word (κοινωνία) that means communion by intimate participation.
[EDITED for code, and to provide translation, T² Hellhost]
[ 14. June 2012, 22:50: Message edited by: Think² ]
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Proof that someone can dork up their code and still be right.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Indeed if my brother had just been diagnosed with cancer I might well get my bible and read the 23rd Psalm for comfort. I doubt it would occur to me to copy and paste it for comfort.
Might you read it aloud in a church service though? Probably not if you find reading aloud tedious, but if you have the church habit probably you'd find comfort in it.
And likewise if you have an internet church habit you might well find copy and paste meaningful.
Clearly copy and paste isn't going to do anything if you aren't actually taking note of the words as you do, but likewise reading aloud might be done mechanically and without thought.
I agree the online version is probably the more niche taste but it doesn't seem so odd to me. After all, here I am looking for human interaction on a message board on the internet. Perhaps many would find the idea of meaningful relationships online weird, and would imagine the process to be quite tedious.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
And likewise if you have an internet church habit you might well find copy and paste meaningful.
(That sentence really does deserve to be showcased. Although the fact I find it both bizarre and funny shows I suffer from a lack of imagination. And empathy too, probably. Oh well.)
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Whatever, hard to respond to a yet-to-be unpacked comment. quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Clearly copy and paste isn't going to do anything if you aren't actually taking note of the words as you do, but likewise reading aloud might be done mechanically and without thought.
If you copy/ paste in huge chunks you can ignore most of it, if you like.I think the process of copying line by line, and waiting a bit for participants to read, might inspire a minor version of a lectio- divina moment. it helps to have actually sat and watched St. Pixel's liturgical practice in action when having this discussion.
(crosspost. Hope my post covers some of that.)
[ 14. June 2012, 20:04: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
I suppose I best quit while I'm behind.
That looks quite funny with another post 5 mins after it.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
I thought that's what the brackets were for.
Still looks funny anyway.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I believe you when you say you found your online experience very meaningful, LeRoc.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
You don't act like it. You act like a jerk.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
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Posted
I suspect that he means he believes LeRoc found it meaningful, but he doesn't believe it was meaningful.* As you say, acting like a jerk.
*I'd be delighted to be told I was wrong...
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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
My post was intended to clarify that I understood how LeRoc felt without actually saying that I felt I had anything to apologize for. I am sure his experience was terribly meaningful, but it wasn't relevant to the discussion we were having.
It's how pretty much every thread about the sacraments goes.
Us: "The sacraments can be identified with these objective criteria."
Them: "You can't deny what I feel in my heart."
Us: "Actually I can. You do know the difference between objective and subjective don't you?."
Them: "You monster! How dare you judge what I felt in my heart!"
Me: "Maybe find a different way to feel?"
Them: *threats of hell call*
[ 14. June 2012, 22:08: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
…Copying the verses of this Psalm one by one from an online Bible and pasting them in CoF's user interface was quite a task…
Not sure I'd call that 'reading the psalm'. But if it ended up being a major spiritual experience…more power to you. (Have to say 'tedious' is what springs to my mind quicker than 'spiritual'.)
Tredious... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Someone with experience in Gregorian chanting of psalms or lectio divina could perhaps see God choosing this moment of crisis to give LeRoc contemplative reading technique as a free gift emerging spontaneously from the circumstance of serving others.
That's so fucking graceful, it borders on spiritual kitsch!
Tedious... ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
My post was intended to clarify that I understood how LeRoc felt without actually saying that I felt I had anything to apologize for. I am sure his experience was terribly meaningful, but it wasn't relevant to the discussion we were having.
It's how pretty much every thread about the sacraments goes.
Us: "The sacraments can be identified with these objective criteria."
Them: "You can't deny what I feel in my heart."
Us: "Actually I can. You do know the difference between objective and subjective don't you?."
Them: "You monster! How dare you judge what I felt in my heart!"
Me: "Maybe find a different way to feel?"
Them: *threats of hell call*
Zach83 is correct. Sacraments have nothing to do with feelings and emotions. Every experience we call spiritual is not a sacrament. A sacrament is a sacrament if it fits the objective criteria mentioned by Zach regardless of the feelings and emotions it produces in the participants.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Zach82 quote:
Them: "You can't deny what I feel in my heart."
Us: "Actually I can. You do know the difference between objective and subjective don't you?."
Me: Jerk. No, you shouldn't deny what he feels in his heart.
Alternate:
quote:
Them: "You can't deny what I feel in my heart."
Us: I'm glad that you found comfort in online worship in such a difficult time. Many great connections both sacred and secular can be made online. I'm just not convinced that what Simon and Melon have described add up to actual sacraments for reasons some of us have described on this thread. Sorry, but I think we can't only go by feelings on things like sacraments. But I do agree there are areas of worship that might work quite well, as you yourself have found, LeRoc.
There. It wasn't that hard.
LeRoc, would such wording be less grating?
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Us: I'm glad that you found comfort in online worship in such a difficult time. Many great connections both sacred and secular can be made online.
I actually did say that, but as is usual in threads about the sacraments it didn't make any difference.
quote:
Sorry, but I think we can't only go by feelings on things like sacraments.
I'm not sorry about that.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
No, because you are a jerk and other people's feelings don't mean shit when you are on your soap box.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
No, because you are a jerk and other people's feelings don't mean shit when you are on your soap box.
Yeah, because debates in Purgatory are supposed to be forums for therapy rather than, y'know, actual debates, and places where any subjective, personal sob-story* is considered above criticism even when it is almost entirely irrelevant to the subject under discussion. Bloody Hell, I thought Steve H's calling of me to Hell last week was lame until I met Smirnoff (reference to 1970s drinks advert in the UK).
* No matter how touching that might be in itself.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
Aside from being a jerk in putting things the way you have, you ignore the fact that legalistic dogma doesn't make the church service or Eucharist valid. You can have the building, a crowd and a priest going through the proper motions and miss it by a country mile. Personally, I see God shaking his head when we try to make everything an either/or and miss what he meant us to have.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
It's not just debates in Purgatory- I think feelings ought to be avoided in most situations. It's my Anglo-Saxon blood, you see.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
No, because you are a jerk and other people's feelings don't mean shit when you are on your soap box.
Yeah, because debates in Purgatory are supposed to be forums for therapy rather than, y'know, actual debates, and places where any subjective, personal sob-story* is considered above criticism even when it is almost entirely irrelevant to the subject under discussion. Bloody Hell, I thought Steve H's calling of me to Hell last week was lame until I met Smirnoff (reference to 1970s drinks advert in the UK).
* No matter how touching that might be in itself.
It doesn't have to be either/or. It is possible to be kind and right (as you and your allies in debate see it). I've noticed that Zach has a tendency to ignore that choice more than many. I didn't think that you were like-minded, Trisagion, but I guess I'm mistaken.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
Aside from being a jerk in putting things the way you have, you ignore the fact that legalistic dogma doesn't make the church service or Eucharist valid. You can have the building, a crowd and a priest going through the proper motions and miss it by a country mile. Personally, I see God shaking his head when we try to make everything an either/or and miss what he meant us to have.
Well you can try and debate your position in Purgatory on the appropriate thread if you like, where you can try and provide some kind of rationale for your assertions. I wouldn't counsel doing so in such sanctimonious tones, however. Don't you think your personal axis with Jesus by which you seek to trump reasoned debate might just be delusional projection? "I see God shaking his head" - get off my aching back, what holier-than-thou shite - or perhaps we're in the presence of a visionary, with some new public revelation. No? I thought not, just another self-righteous, self-referential twat then, who can't see the incongruity in calling someone else a jerk. Pot/kettle?
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
'No, no!' said the Queen. 'Sentence first - verdict afterwards.'
I didn't actually say anything malicious on that thread. The only thing you actually have on me at the moment, Rose, is a failure to consider LeRoc's feelings relevant. If that's all you need, then I am going to have to find your sentence equally irrelevant.
[ 14. June 2012, 23:44: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
It doesn't have to be either/or. It is possible to be kind and right (as you and your allies in debate see it). I've noticed that Zach has a tendency to ignore that choice more than many. I didn't think that you were like-minded, Trisagion, but I guess I'm mistaken.
The pattern of debate in Purgatory doesn't make that choice easy when people seek to curtail debate or foreclose it by playing the "feelings" card as one that trumps all others. It isn't a forum for therapy, nor one where emoting counts as "serious debate". When this is pointed out, we get cry-baby hell calls. It's not a question of Zach's tendencies, or mine: it's a question of whether debate is to be debate or some form of emotional blackmail. If pointing that out counts as being jerk then God help us all.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Okay, I'll concede I may have misread the original thread. I'll re-read it this evening, and if I see you being correct that LeRoc was shutting down debate by way of emotional blackmail, I'll be back with a change of tune.
But for now I'm off to class.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
Aside from being a jerk in putting things the way you have, you ignore the fact that legalistic dogma doesn't make the church service or Eucharist valid. You can have the building, a crowd and a priest going through the proper motions and miss it by a country mile. Personally, I see God shaking his head when we try to make everything an either/or and miss what he meant us to have.
Well you can try and debate your position in Purgatory on the appropriate thread if you like, where you can try and provide some kind of rationale for your assertions. I wouldn't counsel doing so in such sanctimonious tones, however. Don't you think your personal axis with Jesus by which you seek to trump reasoned debate might just be delusional projection? "I see God shaking his head" - get off my aching back, what holier-than-thou shite - or perhaps we're in the presence of a visionary, with some new public revelation. No? I thought not, just another self-righteous, self-referential twat then, who can't see the incongruity in calling someone else a jerk. Pot/kettle?
Not sanctimonious, gained through hard knocks and reproof from God in my life that make me realize that dogma isn't the be all/end all just as my original theology that feelings don't count at all was. I've found the truth generally is somewhere in the middle. This tends to get the dogma folks in just as much of a dither as the emoters. We Christians are by nature an either/or black and white lot and the casualties are very real human beings on all sides. Meanwhile we (general we with me included) miss the point altogether.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
*Sniff*. *Sniff*
Strong smell of Catholics round ere.
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Niteowl2:
Not sanctimonious, gained through hard knocks and reproof from God in my life that make me realize that dogma isn't the be all/end all just as my original theology that feelings don't count at all was.
No, Trisagion was right.
Your post was a bunch of sanctimonious bullshit.
I know that because of the experience and reproof of God in my life. ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
Wow.
Just wow.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
originally posted by Niteowl2:
Not sanctimonious, gained through hard knocks and reproof from God in my life that make me realize that dogma isn't the be all/end all just as my original theology that feelings don't count at all was.
No, Trisagion was right.
Your post was a bunch of sanctimonious bullshit.
I know that because of the experience and reproof of God in my life.
And you're full of shit. I rely on all things others do: scripture, my church and fellowship with other believers. What I don't do any more is base my faith solely on the dogma of my particular denomination to the point I ignore the fact that others don't believe exactly as I do. And we've all seen God act outside of the way we consider he should when we can't past our own dogma. There were better ways that Zach could have made his point without insulting his experience and more or less stating that anything outside his dogma was invalid. What is so fricken hard to understand about this? That is all I was trying to say.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
Although I may not always agree with Zach, I've not ever associated the term "jerk" with him. And, having just read the post in question, I actually find I agree. I'm happy that it meant something to you. But it's not the same.
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
Although I may not always agree with Zach, I've not ever associated the term "jerk" with him.
I will agree with you that is not Zach's normal posting mode. He just could have worded what he wrote much differently and still have made his disagreement known.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I am not interested in making my disagreement known. I want to engage ideas, and insofar as it's impossible to engage feelings, LeRoc's feelings are irrelevant.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
I know several people who take the position that, if their ideas about things are correct, they need not take into account the feelings of other people.
And certainly, whatever subject was being discussed in Purgatory is so serious and important that the heart on sleeve postings of someone deserve a condescending and derisive reply followed by a condescending and derisive set of posts in Hell.
After all, the gravity of the offense to the dignity of your musings in Purgatory justifies you in bombastic defense of your logical prowess.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Except I haven't actually said anything more than that I consider his point irrelevant.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I am not interested in making my disagreement known. I want to engage ideas, and insofar as it's impossible to engage feelings, LeRoc's feelings are irrelevant.
Like it or not a person's feelings and experience are a part of the whole when exchanging ideas. Mocking their feelings shuts down discussion just as much as stating that feelings/experience alone should dictate. The church is made up of people, not just brick and mortar and written words. One can disagree based on what you believe without discounting those who incorporate their experiences and choose. I think his sole point was that the online church was valid as ministry. I didn't see anything about the Eucharist. The church was defined by Jesus as wherever 2 or more were gathered in his name. A gathering can be electronic if people are their for the specific purpose of worship and ministry. Experiences and feelings do matter in that - especially for people who may not be able to participate in the standard brick and mortar. One reason internet groups for grief and illness support do so well is it's a joining of people - and each realizes they are not alone and they can build each other up. If the encouragement and building up of the faith occurs for people online that to me qualifies as church (and it's usually the same group of participants just as the online groups) - that's the reason we're given for gathering.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I didn't mock him, and if he wants grief support, he shouldn't post that sort of thing on a debate thread.
[ 15. June 2012, 01:53: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Niteowl2:
And you're full of shit. I rely on all things others do: scripture, my church and fellowship with other believers. What I don't do any more is base my faith solely on the dogma of my particular denomination to the point I ignore the fact that others don't believe exactly as I do.
You made the decision that Zach's objections weren't important based on what you believed to be your experience of the Divine. I call that sanctimonious bullshit. It's also arguing in bad faith. All I have to say is I experience God differently than you do. Then what? We take turns getting offended that the other isn't validating our feelings and experiences?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I didn't mock him, and if he wants grief support, he shouldn't post that sort of thing on a debate thread.
Can't you see that he was adding his viewpoint to the debate? Just because his experience was used to provide another way that it could be beneficial doesn't mean it doesn't belong. We are called to encourage others in the faith as the reason for gathering together. The discussion was asking for viewpoints on a virtual church and as this is a valid part of ministry building up and encouraging others in the faith it had everything to do with the discussion at hand. As much as denominational doctrines do.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
He only said that his subjective beliefs had a bearing on the argument. Which is why I pointed out that they were only subjective beliefs. Which he found so terribly insulting that he called me to hell.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Zach--
Except that feelings can't be irrelevant, because you are discussing with real persons who have feelings and back stories and perspectives, and you need to be mindful of that--just as they should be mindful with you. (NOTE: I haven't yet read the thread that sparked this one; I'm just wending my way through this one.)
Now, if you want to discuss ideas with a theological textbook, have at it. However, if the book *does* talk back to you, I strongly advise that you drop it off at either Hogwart's School of Magic, or the Unseen University Library in Ankh-Morpork, Disc World. If you go to the UUL, please remember to take a bunch of bananas for the Librarian. He's an orangutan--never, EVER call him a monkey!
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Feelings don't have a place in a serious debate. They just don't. I can't argue with the statement, "I feel you are wrong." I can say, "I don't care how you feel." I can say, "Well, I feel that I'm right." Doesn't matter how I respond, the debate is over.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Has anyone actually read that thread? When I posted the comment that offended LeRoc so much, he had only explained that online church must be church because his subjective experience said so, and I didn't even post that particular line in response to him in the first place.
No, LeRoc read my post and said I was a filthy, slimy thing for insulting an experience I hadn't even heard about. This hell call is so stupid I should have told LeRoc to get lost first thing out of the gate. Instead Rose is explaining that I am jerk for not apologizing for the truth's failure to correspond with LeRoc's experience.
[ 15. June 2012, 02:24: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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