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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Ordinariate repays £1 million
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badman
Shipmate
# 9634
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Posted
The Confraternity of the Blessed Sacrament has been told by the Charity Commission that it's controversial grant of £1 million to the Ordinariate:-
quote:
was taken at an inquorate meeting, the majority of the trustees having a (financial) personal interest in the decision. It was also in breach of the charity’s governing document.
The Ordinariate was, therefore, legally bound to return the money, and has done so.
The Trustees who made this decision have issued a statement in which they say:-
quote:
We were not altogether surprised that, when the payment of the grant came into the public domain, there was adverse comment and a number of complaints to the Charity Commission about what we had done.
Having lost their legal case with the Charity Commission, they have decided not to take it further, despite saying they disagree with the Charity Commission ruling.
Shouldn't the trustees now resign? There is no apology or contrition in their statement at all, and no indication that resignation has even occurred to them.
Posts: 429 | From: Diocese of Guildford | Registered: Jun 2005
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I find the whole thing very sad. I get the CBS leaflet/booklet that they regularly produce and I have to say that over the last couple of years it has been dripping with a shadowy invective and underhand jibe that has made me feel dirty even reading it. It's been clear to many people that the confraternity had lost its way even before this came to light.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Honesty, integrity and perspective are the first things to disappear from those who become politicians. Even (or maybe especially) ecclesiastical politicians.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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filius clavi
Apprentice
# 10527
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by badman:
Shouldn't the trustees now resign?
While there's been no announcement of any resignations that I can see, the CBS website now lists new general officers and trustees (none of whom, I beleive, are members of the ordinariate).
Posts: 19 | From: London/Oxford | Registered: Oct 2005
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
Certainly the gist of the trustees' statement seems to be that if only our misdeeds had been kept secret nobody would have minded.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
Certainly the gist of the trustees' statement seems to be that if only our misdeeds had been kept secret nobody would have minded.
Ephesians 5:11-13
English Standard Version (ESV)
11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret. 13 But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible,
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
I have to say that the trustee I know is a deeply honourable man with much integrity.
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
badman: quote:
Shouldn't the trustees now resign? There is no apology or contrition in their statement at all, and no indication that resignation has even occurred to them.
As far as they are concerned, just because they didn't appeal the Charity Commission's decision for practical reasons doesn't mean they were wrong. So no need for anyone to resign. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Does anyone have a link to the Confraternity's documents of establishment? I believe there was a link on the thread discussing the grant when it was made.
The statement the trustees have made at this juncture say: quote:
...it {the Confraternity} was specifically created as a means of enabling former Anglicans to enter into communion with the Holy See while continuing to preserve and share their rich Anglican traditions.
Really? I don't remember that as it's purpose at all. But I'd like to re-read it to see if I missed something.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chive:
I have to say that the trustee I know is a deeply honourable man with much integrity.
If somewhat worse off than usual.
AtB Pyx_e
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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The Man with a Stick
Shipmate
# 12664
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by filius clavi:
quote:
Originally posted by badman:
Shouldn't the trustees now resign?
While there's been no announcement of any resignations that I can see, the CBS website now lists new general officers and trustees (none of whom, I beleive, are members of the ordinariate).
Indeed - it appears they have all resigned/been pushed.
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
Presumably they thought the money would be better spent on the trust's charitable objects in the Ordinariate than in the failing Church of England. Legally questionable but not necessarily morally.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chive:
I have to say that the trustee I know is a deeply honourable man with much integrity.
It was the perspective that went missing.
A normal balanced secular trustee would have sought the prior written consent of the Charity Commission BEFORE a transaction of this sort.
Posts: 3588 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Solly
Shipmate
# 11919
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Posted
"Presumably they thought the money would be better spent on the trust's charitable objects in the Ordinariate than in the failing Church of England. Legally questionable but not necessarily morally".
The trustees of a registered charity can't ignore its stated objects on a whim. The CBS trustees knew they were skating on very thin ice when they handed over half of the charity's assets to the Ordinariate. They cannot use the legal advice they received as a defence - legal advice is only as good as the instructions on which it is based. The trustees were/are priests for goodness sake - they knew exactly what they were doing. And what was the Ordinariate leadership thinking of when it accepted the donation?
A moral decision it was not - for either party.
Will the Walsingham nuns return their £10,000 gift?
Posts: 70 | From: Sussex UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
The whole business is terribly, terribly sad.
I think Angloid was right about integrity.
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Arrietty
Ship's borrower
# 45
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Posted
The law is very clear that Trustees, even if appointed by another body, are meant to set aside all other considerations and loyalties and act only in the interests of the charity as set out in its constitution.
While I understand what led the Trustees to believe they were acting in the best interests of some if not all supporters of the charity, I can't see how giving away a sizeable chunk of its money to another group can be seen as acting in the best interests of the charity itself.
They could possibly have argued that the creation of the Ordinariate made the charity defunct, and its assets should be given to the Ordinariate, but the Charity Commissioners would have to agree to that.
The assets of any charity have been acquired from people or organisations which support that charity's aims. As a trustee, you can't just decide that you like another charity better than the one of which you are a trustee and reallocate funds accordingly.
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i-church
Online Mission and Ministry
Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Presumably they thought the money would be better spent on the trust's charitable objects in the Ordinariate than in the failing Church of England. Legally questionable but not necessarily morally.
Well, I don’t think the ilegality had anything to do with the fact that the Ordinariate isn’t in communion with +Canterbury. If that is the case, no continuing Anglican body can ever get anything from the CBS. It seems to me to be more a case of a conflict of interest.
In my estimate, the Ordinariate isn’t less Anglican than, say, the TAC.
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Presumably they thought the money would be better spent on the trust's charitable objects in the Ordinariate than in the failing Church of England. Legally questionable but not necessarily morally.
of which in particular:
quote:
in the failing Church of England.
needs a little unpacking by you.
Define failing? (very carefully) and in particular regard to how it is "failing" more than the Roman Catholic denomination. Honestly I think you wrote that when you were upset and may need to withdraw it.
Also if you accept it is Legally questionable then it becomes morally questionable too.
My presumption was "they thought they would get away with it and were proved wrong." Legally and Morally.
AtB Pyx_e.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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egg
Shipmate
# 3982
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Posted
The real wrong turning taken by the CBS occurred when, on 19 April 2010, the Council-General of the CBS resolved to add the Ordinariate to the list of churches from which the CBS could draw its members. At that date, of course, the Trustees were nominally still members of the Church of England; but they knew that those who joined the Ordinariate when it was established on 15 January 2011 would become Roman Catholics, and that the Papal Constitution Anglicanorum Coetibus, which had been issued on 4 November 2009, expressly stated that “5. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is the authoritative expression of the Catholic faith professed by members of the Ordinariate”.
Roman Catholics do not accept that Anglican priests are validly ordained or are capable of celebrating a valid Eucharist, and at a Eucharist or Mass celebrated by a Roman Catholic priest he is not permitted, save in exceptional circumstances, to give communion to Anglicans. The decision of the Council-General of the CBS, which cannot have been debated properly or fully thought out, therefore necessarily wrecked the unity of the CBS, and prevented members of the one Confraternity from fully worshipping together at the Eucharist as from 15 January 2011, when members began transferring to the Ordinariate.
The Trustees, soon (with one exception) to become Roman Catholic members of the Ordinariate, no doubt planned ahead for the transfer of the £1 million from the funds of the CBS, although it is an Anglican society, to the Roman Catholic Ordinariate which was yet to be formed; but I very much doubt whether this, or any other consequences of the decision it was asked to make, was made clear to the Council-General of the CBS in April 2010.
It is this decision, which paved the way, as the Trustees thought, to the funding of the Ordinariate from the resources of the CBS, that was plainly inconsistent with the whole essence of the CBS; and it was this decision that led to the payment of the £1 million to the Roman Caholic Ordinariate that the Charity Commission has now held to have been an invalid exercise of the powers of the then Trustees and thus a breach of trust.
The Roman Catholic Trustees of the CBS have now resigned their trusteeship, and presumably their membership; and it is to be assumed that any other members of the CBS who joined the Ordinariate have similarly resigned their membership, since it is wholly incompatible with the objects of the Ordinariate.
However the Ordinariate has now repaid to the CBS the £1 million with interest, and we can, I hope, agree with it in its "sincere hope", expressed in its statement of 28 June, "that the conclusion of the legal process regarding this grant may now lay this issue to rest."
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egg
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The Man with a Stick
Shipmate
# 12664
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I am glad this has been sorted out.
Quite. This whole sorry episode has brought out the worst in all sides. However strongly one felt about this, the name-calling and personal attacks on the Facebook protest group were disgraceful.
I already note that one blog was posted on this episode today, before swiftly being removed again!
FWIW, my views closely align with Fr Gollop on his blog, as so often Linky
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Holy Smoke
Shipmate
# 14866
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Man with a Stick:
I already note that one blog was posted on this episode today, before swiftly being removed again!
It's still in Google's cache if you're quick. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2009
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rugbyplayingpriest
Shipmate
# 9809
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Posted
Law will only ever reflect the legalities of a situation and does not sort right from wrong. I felt a split was reasonable- 50/50 is what would happen in a divorce.
Nevertheless I can see why some are pleased that a legal process went their way, and do not blame them for feeling happy. Well done! But... and it is HUGE...
I am perplexed at the attitude of many I thought were friends. People who once claimed to seek unity with Rome. Who you might imagine, would have wanted to see the Ordinariate flourish, if only as an insurance policy! But instead we had that vile Facebook page which, if I was still an Anglican, would shame me very, very deeply. It was frankly awful.
Why the lack of recognition of a different perspective that sees the Ordinariate as a work of unity and worth supporting? And why the blatant triumphalism? Will those engaging in it today seek sympathy when synod's winners triumph over them tomorrow?
For me the reason is this. Many who stayed are secretly fuming because synod is about to remove thier intellectual credibility in claiming to be in a truly Catholic church and, if we are honest, the Ordinariate does the same from the other end. The Pope called a bluff and that is deeply annoying if you secretly want to stay at any cost or cannot come for one reason or another.
These people have been building up anger for ages. There was nothing to hit synod with and nothing to hit the ordinariate with but then came CBS and - fantastic- a valid reason to give it the kicking of its life. And it was a kicking from angry frightened people that we witnessed on Facebook. A kicking in which liberals quickly joined in with great delight and relish. How many aff-caths were suddenly friends of CBS!
It is as if there has been a large transference of anger heaped on those who, with integrity, accepted the Ordinariate option. It says much that we have not, on the whole, engaged with it.
Finally I also think it sad that anyone would want to take money earmarked to assist with stipends and putting food on tables for a very young and financially uncertain initiative, in order to simply keep it for themselves. That is manifestly NOT what charity is about.
Those with church buildings, savings and lots of possesions were delighting today that 'I can buy lots of chasubles for £1m' The Ordinariate just lost the very little it might have had. That might seem churlish but who will support the first widow of an Ordinariate priest and the children? Ceetainly that is our question to answer but a little more understanding and a little less vitriol would have gone a long way.
Posts: 130 | From: Kent | Registered: Jul 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
We have a welfare state you know.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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rugbyplayingpriest
Shipmate
# 9809
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Posted
Law will only ever reflect the legalities of a situation and does not sort right from wrong. I felt a split was reasonable- 50/50 is what would happen in a divorce.
Nevertheless I can see why some are pleased that a legal process went their way, and do not blame them for feeling happy. Well done! But... and it is HUGE...
I am perplexed at the attitude of many I thought were friends. People who once claimed to seek unity with Rome. Who you might imagine, would have wanted to see the Ordinariate flourish, if only as an insurance policy! But instead we had that vile Facebook page which, if I was still an Anglican, would shame me very, very deeply. It was frankly awful.
Why the lack of recognition of a different perspective that sees the Ordinariate as a work of unity and worth supporting? And why the blatant triumphalism? Will those engaging in it today seek sympathy when synod's winners triumph over them tomorrow?
For me the reason is this. Many who stayed are secretly fuming because synod is about to remove thier intellectual credibility in claiming to be in a truly Catholic church and, if we are honest, the Ordinariate does the same from the other end. The Pope called a bluff and that is deeply annoying if you secretly want to stay at any cost or cannot come for one reason or another.
These people have been building up anger for ages. There was nothing to hit synod with and nothing to hit the ordinariate with but then came CBS and - fantastic- a valid reason to give it the kicking of its life. And it was a kicking from angry frightened people that we witnessed on Facebook. A kicking in which liberals quickly joined in with great delight and relish. How many aff-caths were suddenly friends of CBS!
It is as if there has been a large transference of anger heaped on those who, with integrity, accepted the Ordinariate option. It says much that we have not, on the whole, engaged with it.
Finally I also think it sad that anyone would want to take money earmarked to assist with stipends and putting food on tables for a very young and financially uncertain initiative, in order to simply keep it for themselves. That is manifestly NOT what charity is about.
Those with church buildings, savings and lots of possesions were delighting today that 'I can buy lots of chasubles for £1m' The Ordinariate just lost the very little it might have had. That might seem churlish but who will support the first widow of an Ordinariate priest and the children? Ceetainly that is our question to answer but a little more understanding and a little less vitriol would have gone a long way.
Posts: 130 | From: Kent | Registered: Jul 2005
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Law will only ever reflect the legalities of a situation and does not sort right from wrong. I felt a split was reasonable- 50/50 is what would happen in a divorce.
Imma stop you right there. This is not a divorce. People are leaving the Church of England to join the Roman Catholic Church. They do not have the right to walk off with whatever they like.
quote:
That might seem churlish but who will support the first widow of an Ordinariate priest and the children?
They get whatever portion of their stipend they earned. Past that the Roman Catholic Church will have to take care of Roman Catholic priests.
[ 29. June 2012, 17:35: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
"Stipend" meaning "Pension," naturally.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Solly
Shipmate
# 11919
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Posted
Rugbyplayingpriest - Haven't you been gagged?
Posts: 70 | From: Sussex UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rugbyplayingpriest:
How many aff-caths were suddenly friends of CBS!
I am AffCath. For many years I regularly attended CBS monthly meetings, often acting as either thurifer or MC. No suddenness here.
If is constructive to consider the views of other 'catholic societies' to the ordinariate e.g. the GSS, of which I am a member, regards those who 'go over' to it as, in the words of our warden, 'traitors' and those whop join the ordinariate are removed from GSS membership automatically. We are urgent to remain loyal to the C of E and continue to fight for the catholic cause. We have been through dark times before and, mercifully, no longer are confronted by 'dungeon, fire and sword.'
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
Law will only ever reflect the legalities of a situation and does not sort right from wrong. I felt a split was reasonable- 50/50 is what would happen in a divorce.
But it was not a divorce, you left home, you were unfaithful to your promises, you tried to take the family silver, and the Law made you give it back. Your opinion is at best irrelevant and at worst a sign of your huge self-delusion over this issue. I continue to pray for members of the Ordinariate, rejoice in their new found, oft longed for Spiritual home and I have supported them financially. But everyone who is not a sympathiser of the Ordinariate’s ideals (and many Roman Catholics) have been trying to tell you guys this was a mistake from Day One.
quote:
Nevertheless I can see why some are pleased that a legal process went their way, and do not blame them for feeling happy. Well done! But... and it is HUGE...
Your perplexion in the next paragraph has been answered in this one. A million pounds is HUGE, and over half the capital of the CBS.
quote:
I am perplexed at the attitude of many I thought were friends. People who once claimed to seek unity with Rome. Who you might imagine, would have wanted to see the Ordinariate flourish, if only as an insurance policy! But instead we had that vile Facebook page which, if I was still an Anglican, would shame me very, very deeply. It was frankly awful.
Why the lack of recognition of a different perspective that sees the Ordinariate as a work of unity and worth supporting? And why the blatant triumphalism? Will those engaging in it today seek sympathy when synod's winners triumph over them tomorrow?
Friends don’t try and run of with the family silver. I seek Unity with Rome, just as I seek Unity with the Orthodox and many other Denominations. I am not prepared to give up everything central to Anglicanism while pretending that dressing it up in some vague term like “Patrimony” is cloth enough to cover up the nakedness of what is truly left.
You and your leadership have form the very start misunderstood the support for this project and Rome within the Catholic wing of the church. The numbers joining are nowhere near what I know most of what your leaders were expecting, the CBS affair is but a further example of miscalculated support. That is your problem, not those you over or underestimated (whichever way you look at it)
You (consistently) mistake “take-over” with “Unity.” The Ordinariate is not offering Unity it is offering that which was always available, the chance to become a Roman Catholic. Another perspective you miss is what has happened to the Catholic wing of the C of E since you left. I suspect it may suit you to think that it is collapsing but actually you have done most of us a great service. You have forced us to decide. The Ordinariate was a fork in the road. Everyone I speak with is actually in a better place, excepting a few who plan to join the Ordinariate on retirement ( I still can’t get my head round that one).
As for the truly awful Facebook stuff (which I have never read since FB is the work of the Devil) I can only add that some of the stuff written in Ordinate leaning blogs which I do read is truly awful too, a plague on all houses that resort to mudslinging and despair.
quote:
For me the reason is this. Many who stayed are secretly fuming because synod is about to remove thier intellectual credibility in claiming to be in a truly Catholic church and, if we are honest, the Ordinariate does the same from the other end. The Pope called a bluff and that is deeply annoying if you secretly want to stay at any cost or cannot come for one reason or another.
See that just reads like you writing how you wish we feel. Just to let you know (and as said previously) we are grateful for the Ordinariate giving a clear choice. No bluff was called, choices were made. Most here are flourishing now this issue has been resolved. As for those who “cannot come” may I assure you it is not the C of E that is preventing them, let the reader understand.
quote:
These people have been building up anger for ages. There was nothing to hit synod with and nothing to hit the ordinariate with but then came CBS and - fantastic- a valid reason to give it the kicking of its life. And it was a kicking from angry frightened people that we witnessed on Facebook. A kicking in which liberals quickly joined in with great delight and relish. How many aff-caths were suddenly friends of CBS!
I refer you to my previous sentences, a plague on any house who falls into mudslinging.
quote:
It is as if there has been a large transference of anger heaped on those who, with integrity, accepted the Ordinariate option. It says much that we have not, on the whole, engaged with it.
Or; it may be some were angry that the family silver was disappeared overnight, with some obvious forethought. And you are right the leadership of the Ordinariate have failed to engage with their sin.
quote:
Finally I also think it sad that anyone would want to take money earmarked to assist with stipends and putting food on tables for a very young and financially uncertain initiative, in order to simply keep it for themselves. That is manifestly NOT what charity is about.
What you think you had planned to do with what was not yours is of little consequence. The Charity Commissioners would, I hope, know what charity was about and they decided what your Leadership did was not charitable. You show me a Christian priest of any denomination who cannot feed him/herself or their family, just show me, you have my details.
quote:
Those with church buildings, savings and lots of possesions were delighting today that 'I can buy lots of chasubles for £1m' The Ordinariate just lost the very little it might have had. That might seem churlish but who will support the first widow of an Ordinariate priest and the children? Ceetainly that is our question to answer but a little more understanding and a little less vitriol would have gone a long way.
Statistically the Church of England’s pension board will support the vast majority of Widows for the next 10 to 20 years. After that who knows, the Roman Catholic church must have some provision surely? Pensions are not for Children, they get to grow up and make their own provision. What little support you may have had left with CBS goes flying out of the window when you describe the work of a long standing and much loved charity as supplying chasubles. Don’t think your upset over vitriol on FB carries any weight with me either. You wrestle with pigs you get covered with mud.
Your plea for understanding must be mutual. Please leave off the C of E, you left, now emotionally leave too. Indeed one of the reasons that I remain firmly Anglican is that I can say and write what I want, when I want in any way I want, not something that can be said of those under the Authority of Rome. The crazy thing is I as an Anglican chose to be mostly quiet about it all while Ordinariate members who seem to be banned from writing or speaking, yet STILL can’t leave it alone.
AtB Pyx_e.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Solly
Shipmate
# 11919
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Posted
quote:
Law will only ever reflect the legalities of a situation and does not sort right from wrong.
The law does indeed strive to sort right from wrong otherwise we would live in a state of anarchy and likely suffer from collective autism - 'Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law' - is that your mantra, Rugbyplaying priest? The £1 million donation scandal has damaged the integrity of the Ordinariate and each defiant refusal to acknowledge that the donation was wrong and that the Ordinariate was wrong to accept it makes the fledgling group's rehabilitation in the eyes of Anglo-Catholics less likely.
Posts: 70 | From: Sussex UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rugbyplayingpriest
That might seem churlish but who will support the first widow of an Ordinariate priest and the children?
Two questions:-
1. Is providing support for needy clergy widows and children within the objects of the Confraternity?
2. Was providing for needy Anglo-Catholic clergy widows and children what it was using its money for back when the ordinariate was but a twinkle in the eye of a senior German cardinal?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
No on both counts, Enoch.
The Confraternity was a spiritual and religious movement linked to a central act of Anglican worship and community prayer; namely the Eucharist. It helped to pay for robes, prayer books, aumbry's, Bibles, wine, sanctuary lamps etc. It was essentially formed to bolster and support the aims and spirituality expressed by the Anglican ritualist movements of the nineteenth century. I'm sure your questions were rhetorical, but just in case there are those reading this thread without knowing the background, we are actually talking about an Anglican charity established to specifically support Anglicans.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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rugbyplayingpriest
Shipmate
# 9809
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Posted
It was formed to promote Catholicism within the Church of England. One could as easily point to modern Anglicanism, and certainly Affirming Catholicism, as being as unrecognisable to the founders as the Ordinariate would be. The point is surely that so much has happened since the 19th Century, especially due to women's ordination, to make the present situation one that nobody would have seen coming... and so nothing is as clear as they would like.
As to the mean spirited tearing apart of my previous post. Fine. I have no desire to argue. Enjoy your money - and delight in crushing us stinking traitors. Enjoy...I really do not care.
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
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Posted
I know, so much has happened since the nineteenth century, you're right. They even ordain those coloureds from the colonies now.
[ 29. June 2012, 20:48: Message edited by: fletcher christian ]
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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rugbyplayingpriest
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# 9809
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Posted
Are you trying to imply I am racist?
Then you must be very dim... what has changed is that the Catholic claim of the Church of England has been hugely damaged by the invention of synod and a belief it can change doctrine without consultation with the wider universal church. Nothing there makes me rascist...or am I missing something?
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
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oh god.....
You left to go to a happy place. Now fucking get over it already.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
That's the usual argument of groups leaving the Episcopal Church with Church property too. "The law of the state and constitution of the Church don't matter, since we're theologically right."
[ 29. June 2012, 20:53: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
No on both counts, Enoch.
The Confraternity was a spiritual and religious movement linked to a central act of Anglican worship and community prayer; namely the Eucharist. It helped to pay for robes, prayer books, aumbry's, Bibles, wine, sanctuary lamps etc. It was essentially formed to bolster and support the aims and spirituality expressed by the Anglican ritualist movements of the nineteenth century. I'm sure your questions were rhetorical, but just in case there are those reading this thread without knowing the background, we are actually talking about an Anglican charity established to specifically support Anglicans.
In that case, even if the Charity Commission had decided that helping to provide the Ordinariate with a selection of robes, prayer books, aumbry's, Bibles, wine, sanctuary lamps etc. was within its objectives, giving the Ordinariate's general fund £1M as a golden hello would still not have been OK.
quote:
originally posted by rugbyplayingpriest
a belief it can change doctrine without consultation with the wider universal church
Did Pio Nono consult the wider universal church before propounding Pastor Aeturnus or Ineffabilis Deus?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I know, so much has happened since the nineteenth century, you're right. They even ordain those coloureds from the colonies now.
Many non-whites were ordained in Victorian times. A look at various Anglican calendars will let you into the lives of the Cree Henry Budd, priested in 1850, and the Yoruba Samuel Crowther, priest in 1842 and bishop in 1864, among others.
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dj_ordinaire
Host
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rugbyplayingpriest
That might seem churlish but who will support the first widow of an Ordinariate priest and the children?
Given that the Roman Catholic church is both massively wealthy and heavily engaged in charitable works, I am reasonably sure that they won't be left to starve, even without the provisions of the welfare state. I can understand why the funds of the Confraternity would have been welcome for other purposes - some of them very necessary - but that doesn't legitimise the use of CBS money in such a way. Just as the CBS could probably do a lot of immediate good by donating it's entire funds to Oxfam - be that as it may, it is not what it is there for!
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rugbyplayingpriest:
Are you trying to imply I am racist?
Then you must be very dim... what has changed is that the Catholic claim of the Church of England has been hugely damaged by the invention of synod and a belief it can change doctrine without consultation with the wider universal church. Nothing there makes me rascist...or am I missing something?
I do not recall that the doctrines of such matters as Papal infallibility and the Immaculate Conception were ever discussed at an Ecumenical Council to which those of the Eastern Orthodox churches at least were invited, or consulted.
[ 29. June 2012, 23:13: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Solly
Shipmate
# 11919
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Posted
rugbyplayingpriest quote:
I am perplexed at the attitude of many I thought were friends
If the CBS trustees had consulted the membership in respect of whether the Ordinariate qualified for financial help under the aims and objects of the charity or whether agreement could be reached to bring them into the fold, your friends would probably still be with you. As it is, the trustees knew they were batting off a dodgy wicket and decided (at enormous cost to the funds) to see if the law would provide a short cut.
Bankers eat your heart out! - the former CBS trustees and the Ordinariate leadership can teach you a thing or two.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Solly:
rugbyplayingpriest quote:
I am perplexed at the attitude of many I thought were friends
If the CBS trustees had consulted the membership in respect of whether the Ordinariate qualified for financial help under the aims and objects of the charity or whether agreement could be reached to bring them into the fold, your friends would probably still be with you. As it is, the trustees knew they were batting off a dodgy wicket and decided (at enormous cost to the funds) to see if the law would provide a short cut.
Bankers eat your heart out! - the former CBS trustees and the Ordinariate leadership can teach you a thing or two.
As we all know, the true purpose of every charity, that first purpose which prevails over any other budgetary demand, and to which the CBS has so admirably contributed, is the redistribution of wealth from the support of the poor and needy in general and the advancement of religion and learning to that subgroup of the poor, needy, holy and ignorant that happens to be qualified as solicitors and barristers.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
I seek Unity with Rome, just as I seek Unity with the Orthodox and many other Denominations. I am not prepared to give up everything central to Anglicanism while pretending that dressing it up in some vague term like “Patrimony” is cloth enough to cover up the nakedness of what is truly left.
...
You (consistently) mistake “take-over” with “Unity.” The Ordinariate is not offering Unity it is offering that which was always available, the chance to become a Roman Catholic. Another perspective you miss is what has happened to the Catholic wing of the C of E since you left. I suspect it may suit you to think that it is collapsing but actually you have done most of us a great service. You have forced us to decide. The Ordinariate was a fork in the road. Everyone I speak with is actually in a better place, excepting a few who plan to join the Ordinariate on retirement ( I still can’t get my head round that one).
Quite so. Desiring unity with the Roman Catholic Church doesn't have to mean individuals decamping. My vision of unity between Anglicans and Roman Catholics is for the See of Canterbury to be in full communion with the See of Rome. It's not a hope I expect to see realised in my lifetime (and I'm only 23!), but that doesn't to me seem good reason to abandon the project.
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coniunx
Shipmate
# 15313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
That's the usual argument of groups leaving the Episcopal Church with Church property too. "The law of the state and constitution of the Church don't matter, since we're theologically right."
Perhaps preferably to being theologically wrong yet under the protection of the law.
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Coniunx
Posts: 250 | From: Nottingham | Registered: Nov 2009
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Yes. The only consolation we have is our lucre. How dare they take that away.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Did Pio Nono consult the wider universal church before propounding Pastor Aeturnus or Ineffabilis Deus?
Since neither of these changed the doctrine of the Catholic Church but merely confirmed it, the comparison is otiose. In any event, the answer is that first you mention came in direct response to a resolution of an Ecumenical Council of the Church and the second after writing to every bishop, religious superior and Catholic University in the world to seek their views on what the faith of the Catholic Church was, it would seem the answer to your question is yes.
If your question relates to the particular way in which Anglicans use the term "wider universal church", then of course the answer is no. But whilst it seems sensible to hold Anglicans to operating in accordance with their own notions and claims regarding the "wider universal church" and the Anglican Communion's place in it, it seems rather strange to expect those who don't accept those notions and claims to be bound by them. Rugbyplayingpriest's point would seem to be that, since Anglicans have historically claimed and continue to claim to have no doctrine of their own but only that of the Church Catholic (an arch expression, if I ever heard one), then their capacity to change that doctrine must be self-limited. Since it is now clear that the Anglican definition of what forms part of that doctrine varies markedly from what either those churches in communion with Rome or those in communion with Constantinople, the claim is exposed for what it has always been: a sophistry.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
I seek Unity with Rome, just as I seek Unity with the Orthodox and many other Denominations. I am not prepared to give up everything central to Anglicanism while pretending that dressing it up in some vague term like “Patrimony” is cloth enough to cover up the nakedness of what is truly left.
...
You (consistently) mistake “take-over” with “Unity.” The Ordinariate is not offering Unity it is offering that which was always available, the chance to become a Roman Catholic. Another perspective you miss is what has happened to the Catholic wing of the C of E since you left. I suspect it may suit you to think that it is collapsing but actually you have done most of us a great service. You have forced us to decide. The Ordinariate was a fork in the road. Everyone I speak with is actually in a better place, excepting a few who plan to join the Ordinariate on retirement ( I still can’t get my head round that one).
Quite so. Desiring unity with the Roman Catholic Church doesn't have to mean individuals decamping. My vision of unity between Anglicans and Roman Catholics is for the See of Canterbury to be in full communion with the See of Rome. It's not a hope I expect to see realised in my lifetime (and I'm only 23!), but that doesn't to me seem good reason to abandon the project.
There will never be unity because Canterbury has chosen division. It is merely catching up with it's Erastian fellow travellers in the Scandinavian state churches. The mealy mouthed facile statements of "ecumenists" that everything is possible with God or we can't foresee the movement of the Holy Spirit are asinine to the point of insulting intelligence.
There will not be unity, there never will be unity and people on both sides would be a damned sight better off if they stopped indulging in childish fantasies and had the balls to be honest.
If Anglicans want unity it's Ordinariate or bust. The end.
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
It's not like that, CL. If the pope and his followers ever want to come back to the One True Church, we will welcome them with open arms.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
It's not like that, CL. If the pope and his followers ever want to come back to the One True Church, we will welcome them with open arms.
I could respect such a position if Anglicanism actually claimed it.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
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