homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » Alogon: Moral Ignoramus and Confederate Apologist

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.    
Source: (consider it) Thread: Alogon: Moral Ignoramus and Confederate Apologist
Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357

 - Posted      Profile for Justinian   Email Justinian   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Alogon has been an absolute star in the Welcome to Plantation America thread.

Most recently he asked:
quote:
How is getting far ahead through sharp practice distinguished from enslavement?
And when I, disbelieving that any human being could be that ignorant asked for confirmation he replied:
quote:
Yes. It was a question. Would you like to attempt an answer, while I flee back to my copy of Berman?
Alogon, I don't know whether you're senile, pig-ignorant, or just have very very rose tinted spectacles. Either way you are an apologist for slavery based on that comparison. But I'm going to attempt an answer here in hell - I don't believe that conversations with Confederate Apologists or apologists for slavery belong in Purgatory.

The simple answer in language I think you can understand is that the very worst excesses of the very worst hustlers might leave the victims in a comparable situation to a not especially mistreated slave. Even the worst hustler has problems selling his victims down the river.

And worse than that, enslavement makes the worst excesses hustling can possibly reach normal. It steals work. It steals lives. It forcibly separates families. It encourages personal cruelty. And what's worse, it sets this being the way to treat your fellow humans as normal. And when a slave owner steps outside the law (the way hustlers do for their excesses) there is no redress. To take a simple example Boss Tweed was probably the biggest vote-hustler there has ever been. Stealing votes, stealing labour, and stealing money. And he is reviled for it. But Boss Tweed couldn't have dreamed of stealing votes on the scale of the three fifths compromise or the labour or money stolen from slaves.

So fuck you for comparing the legal and at the time socially condoned slavery with the worst excesses of people trying to hustle and at the time normally vilified for it.

And fuck you for your confederate apologetics. Your latest post attempting to whitewash the confederacy is every bit as clear as your praising the amiability, and courtesy of a society that condoned first slavery then jim crow.

Like most Confederate apologists, you deflect from what a vile bunch of fuckers, willing to launch an armed rebellion to protect the institution of slavery, the Confederates actually were. Which you will try to obfuscate, but the primary sources make clear.

The Declarations of Secession were quite open about this.
quote:
Mississippi:

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

quote:
South Carolina

We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assumed the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.

quote:
Georgia

The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property, and by the use of their power in the Federal Government have striven to deprive us of an equal enjoyment of the common Territories of the Republic.

quote:
Texas

Texas abandoned her separate national existence and consented to become one of the Confederated States to promote her welfare, insure domestic tranquility [sic] and secure more substantially the blessings of peace and liberty to her people. She was received into the confederacy with her own constitution, under the guarantee of the federal constitution and the compact of annexation, that she should enjoy these blessings. She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery--the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits--a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy.

More Ordinances of Secession
quote:
Alabama:
And as it is the desire and purpose of the people of Alabama to meet the slaveholding States of the South, who may approve such purpose, in order to frame a provisional as well as permanent Government upon the principles of the Constitution of the United States,

quote:
Virginia
The people of Virginia in their ratification of the Constitution of the United States of America, adopted by them in convention on the twenty-fifth day of June, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-eight, having declared that the powers granted under said Constitution were derived from the people of the United States and might be resumed whensoever the same should be perverted to their injury and oppression, and the Federal Government having perverted said powers not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the Southern slave-holding States:

In 1861 the Vice President of the Confederacy was open about this:
quote:
Cornerstone by Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens in Savannah, Georgia on March 21, 1861

The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away... Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it—when the "storm came and the wind blew, it fell."

Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition.

The Confederate newspapers were open about this
quote:
Richmond Enquirer Saturday Morning, March 23, 1861

The True Issue


The ultimatum of the seceded States is left in no uncertainty; it is to be found in the solemn action of the Montgomery Constitution and may be analyzed as follows:

That African slavery in the Territories shall be recognized and protected by Congress and the Territorial Legislatures.

That the right to slaveholders of transit and sojourn in any State of the Confederacy, with their slaves and other property, shall be recognized and respected.

That the provision in regard to fugitive slaves shall extend to any slave lawfully carried from one State into another, and there escaping or taken away from his master.

That no bill or ex post facto law (by Congress or any State,) and no law impairing or denying the right of property in negro slaves, shall be passed.

That the African slave trade shall be prohibited by such laws of Congress as shall effectually prevent the same.

The report made by Gov. Wise embraces all these.

As the primary sources make blatantly obvious, the United States of America did not go to war to suppress slavery. But the Confederacy seceeded to preserve slavery and then attacked the United States of America. The Confederacy went to war to preserve slavery. As evil a motive to go to war as there has ever been. And a massively disproportionate proportion of early volunteers were in slave owning families.

And if that isn't enough for you, try playing spot the difference between the Constitutions of the United States of America and the Confederate States of America.
quote:
Paragraph 4 of Article 1 Section 9 of the Confederate Constitution
(4) No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.

Can anyone spot the difference between that and the original?


Alogon, you are a vile piece of work, trying to minimise the evils of slavery and launch apologetics for a government deliberately set up to perpetuate slavery.

--------------------
My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.

Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.

Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Frankly, at first glance it looks like you've read Alogon's post in the exact opposite way that it was intended. I can't see him saying the two options are equally good. It looks to me like he's saying the two options are equally bad.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

 - Posted      Profile for Lyda*Rose   Email Lyda*Rose   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I won't say that Alogon is altogether a horrible, despicable person. But he does seem to have a horrible, despicable opinion in this. The thing is that even if the North had an unaltruistic reason for going to war (preservation of the Union) it doesn't change the fact that the South's reason for going to war wasn't just non-altruistic, it was evil. They wanted to preserve their prosperity on the backs of other human beings who had no recourse under the law to own their own beings or live their own lives.

Unfortunately, there are still "good slavery" affirmers, just as there are Holocaust deniers. [Mad]

--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357

 - Posted      Profile for Justinian   Email Justinian   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Frankly, at first glance it looks like you've read Alogon's post in the exact opposite way that it was intended. I can't see him saying the two options are equally good. It looks to me like he's saying the two options are equally bad.

Equally good or equally bad? He's still saying they are equal. And that's pure bullshit.

--------------------
My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.

Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.

Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Whatever. Excuse me, I've got to go trim my nails or something...

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513

 - Posted      Profile for Alogon   Email Alogon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Well, there we have it. Let's listen to Justinian and then shut up because he has the LAST WORD about the Civil War and that whole period of American history. And we have to shut up because he detests slavery more than we do, maybe more than we can possibly imagine. Chuck out of the library the tomes of Charles and Mary Beard, James McPherson, Eric Foner, John Ashworth, Avery Craven, Barrington Moore, Raimondo Luraghi, Gabor Borrit, Eugene Genovese, Frank Owsley... Justinian's oracular righteousness has provided us all we need to know.

The only axe I've wanted to grind from my first post onward is an impression that Ms. Robinson in Conservative Southern Values Revived has somewhat crippled her worthy case by posing such an unlikely threat as a recrudescence of the Southern slave plantation. I think I called this image a house with no plumbing. A reader is liable to find it so unpersuasive under even moderately close examination as to conclude that there is no threat. This was certainly not her intention. But Justinian has gone so berserk over my little effort to propose a more realistic description of the situation, that I really have to wonder about his intention.

We know perfectly well, now, Justinian, what you are attacking with such fury, as if it weren't largely a consensus among us already. I'd like to know, what are you so furiously defending?

--------------------
Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357

 - Posted      Profile for Justinian   Email Justinian   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Well, there we have it. Let's listen to Justinian and then shut up because he has the LAST WORD about the Civil War and that whole period of American history. And we have to shut up because he detests slavery more than we do, maybe more than we can possibly imagine.

Oh, bollocks. I'm insistant on you facing the point that your grasp of history is about as accurate and contains about as much whitewash of a vile regime as the average holocaust denier. If anything more whitewash - both the Nazis and the Confederates were vile - but the Nazis didn't found their "country" with the specific intent of committing the Holocaust and trumpet the Holocaust as a good thing from the rooftops.

But given you seem to think that slavery was no different from hustling, yes I probably do hate it more than you do. Because to you it appears to be not that bad. Certainly it isn't bad enough to condemn a society that is willing to go to war to uphold race based slavery as an ideal.

quote:
We know perfectly well, now, Justinian, what you are attacking with such fury, as if it weren't largely a consensus among us already. I'd like to know, what are you so furiously defending?
What I'm defending is truth. What I'm defending is the very idea of amiability - you do not get to call a society amiable in which more than a third of the people are quite literally treated as livestock. What I'm defending is the very idea of courtesy - again it is impossible to be courteous while condoning the idea that people can be bought and sold. And ultimately what I'm defending is the idea that you shouldn't be able to treat people as subhuman and then be considered a decent human being.

--------------------
My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.

Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.

Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

 - Posted      Profile for Evensong   Author's homepage   Email Evensong   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
That has to be the longest Hell OP in history. And the most boring.

TLDR.

*Yawn*

Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513

 - Posted      Profile for Alogon   Email Alogon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
And ultimately what I'm defending is the idea that you shouldn't be able to treat people as subhuman and then be considered a decent human being.

Shall we get back to the topic of the Purgatory thread, then? The article by Ms. Robinson disturbed me a little for exactly the same reasons. I don't doubt that she means well, but do you find her portrayal of the situation-- the present situation-- credible? Neither my opinion nor yours about the Confederacy is going to change 150-year-old history. The South was thoroughly defeated, so thoroughly that the slave plantations don't look like ever returning.
You are glad and I am glad about that. The issue is what bearing that defeat has on the U.S. today.

You have already admitted that you have no interest in defending her article. Despite your opinion of the Confederacy, apparently you don't find it very persuasive, either. Yet you are willing to let it stand, in all its implausibility, while you derail the discussion with a sanctimonious personal vendetta.

If I weren't more circumspect in casting aspersions than you, I might suggest that you are trying to distract readers from an incipient threat of enslavement (albeit not in the Confederate style) that is now underway.

[ 27. July 2012, 14:37: Message edited by: Alogon ]

--------------------
Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357

 - Posted      Profile for Justinian   Email Justinian   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Shall we get back to the topic of the Purgatory thread, then?

Why? This thread is about your ignorant and vile opinions. Your claim that slavery is no worse than hustling. Your apologism for armed rebellion in defence of slavery.

@Evensong, it wasn't meant to be interesting. It was meant to be thorough. To demonstrate that Alogon doesn't have a leg to stand on. I'm sorry that it wasn't written for your entertainment.

--------------------
My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.

Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.

Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

 - Posted      Profile for mdijon     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
That has to be the longest Hell OP in history. And the most boring.

TLDR.

*Yawn*

But, even on a per word basis, more worthwhile than chipping in to opine that it was boring.

--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

 - Posted      Profile for Doublethink.   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
We have one of the quickest demonstrations of Godwin's law for a while - does this mean Algonon wins on a technicality ?

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

 - Posted      Profile for RuthW     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Godwin's Law doesn't say anything about someone winning. It just says that if an internet discussion goes on long enough, someone will trot out an analogy to the Nazis. Moreover, Godwin's Law doesn't apply to apt analogies. Belief in racial superiority is the obvious common thread of American slavery and Nazism, so Godwin's Law does not apply and Alogon has not won.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

 - Posted      Profile for Doublethink.   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
*sighs with relief*

Oh good.

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
an incipient threat of enslavement (albeit not in the Confederate style) that is now underway.

While I despise, and honestly fear the greedy, callous, Ayn Randish philosophy of those seeking to broaden class divides, one cannot compare their efforts to slavery. For one, slaves did not actively seek to be recruited.
Really, comparing gross capitalism to slavery is simply stupid. Nice for rhetoric but fails intellectually.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
That has to be the longest Hell OP in history. And the most boring.

TLDR.

*Yawn*

But, even on a per word basis, more worthwhile than chipping in to opine that it was boring.
I think she's out of her cotton-picking mind.* How many people would go to the effort of tracking down all those primary source documents?

I just sat through a semester in a community college civics class which was populated by nineteen year olds who didn't want to be there; some of the coolest stories in American history went flying right over their heads. I come here and see an actual, passionate argument about the echoes of history and I want to weep with relief.

* see what I did there?

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

 - Posted      Profile for mdijon     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
* see what I did there?

The word play or the unwarranted assumption?

--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597

 - Posted      Profile for Stetson     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
I think she's out of her cotton-picking mind.
When I was a kid, 1970s, the local library had a sticker on their aquarium. It showed an anthropomorphized catfish, standing upright with a cane, and dressed up in the style of a stereotypical southern planter.

The caption: "Keep your cotton-pickin' hands off the glass."

Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
[Big Grin]

It would have to be a catfish, wouldn't it?

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sine Nomine

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66

 - Posted      Profile for Sine Nomine   Email Sine Nomine   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
it wasn't meant to be interesting. It was meant to be thorough. To demonstrate that Alogon doesn't have a leg to stand on. I'm sorry that it wasn't written for your entertainment.

Are you by any chance a shut-in or currently unemployed?

--------------------
Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...

Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sine Nomine

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66

 - Posted      Profile for Sine Nomine   Email Sine Nomine   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
(I sound like Dorothy Kilgallen on 'What's My Line?')

--------------------
Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...

Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Uncle Pete

Loyaute me lie
# 10422

 - Posted      Profile for Uncle Pete     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
That has to be the longest Hell OP in history. And the most boring.

TLDR.

*Yawn*

As several have already commented, I will forebear from mentioning your channelling of Zach82.

However, Everwhinging, if you don't like it, there's a scroll button somewhere on your computer. Just thought I would point that out.

--------------------
Even more so than I was before

Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357

 - Posted      Profile for Justinian   Email Justinian   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Godwin's Law doesn't say anything about someone winning. It just says that if an internet discussion goes on long enough, someone will trot out an analogy to the Nazis. Moreover, Godwin's Law doesn't apply to apt analogies. Belief in racial superiority is the obvious common thread of American slavery and Nazism, so Godwin's Law does not apply and Alogon has not won.

Not just racial superiority. The White Men's Burden missionaries who went to civilise the natives often believed they were racially superior. I might not have much time for them but I wouldn't compare them to Nazis. To be a fair comparison to the Nazis, a regime known for evil, the comparison needs to be with the worst of the Nazis.

What makes the Nazis stand out from other bad regimes is the holocaust, the logic underlying it, and the end result. The concentration camps were based on the fundamental principle that some groups of people were subhuman and that the Nazis therefore had the right to work them to death or do whatever the fuck else they wanted to with them.

The Confederacy was literally founded on the principle that some groups of people were subhuman and that they therefore had the right to work them to death or do whatever the fuck else they wanted to with them.

This isn't to say they were identically bad; I see two substantive differences:

1: The Nazis were interested in the death at least as much as the work (not that the work wasn't a desired goal). The Confederates wanted the work. This was underlined when the Germans doubled down on the holoucaust when defeat looked inevitable.

2: The holocaust was neither trumpeted from the hilltops nor the reason Nazi Germany claimed to exist. The Confederacy claimed "its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition."

Which was worse? The evil bunch of bastards that first set up concentration camps to work people of races they despised to death, then moved over to gassing them? Or the evil bunch of bastards who launched a war explicitely for the right to work people to death.

I don't know. There's a case to be made either way. Both regimes were the scum of the earth.

And that is why I consider Confederate apologists to be on a level with Nazi apologists. I genuinely don't know which group of scumbags was worse.

--------------------
My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.

Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.

Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sine Nomine

Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66

 - Posted      Profile for Sine Nomine   Email Sine Nomine   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
(I suppose in Justinian's fairly hate-filled world the real scumbags would be Catholic Confederates. A great twofer.)

--------------------
Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...

Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Silent Acolyte

Shipmate
# 1158

 - Posted      Profile for The Silent Acolyte     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
'What's My Line?' !
You sound like your maiden, nonagenarian aunt who watched Dorothy Kilgallen, not like Dorothy Kilgallen, herself.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397

 - Posted      Profile for Patdys     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
That has to be the longest Hell OP in history. And the most boring.

TLDR.

*Yawn*

It's not all about you dearie*


*and take Zach with you.

--------------------
Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.

Posts: 3511 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397

 - Posted      Profile for Patdys     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Sorry, hadn't read all the way through. Just a kneejerk.

--------------------
Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.

Posts: 3511 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

 - Posted      Profile for Evensong   Author's homepage   Email Evensong   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:

@Evensong, it wasn't meant to be interesting. It was meant to be thorough. To demonstrate that Alogon doesn't have a leg to stand on. I'm sorry that it wasn't written for your entertainment.

I forgive you. This time.

Just don't do it again.

I was beginning to like you.

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163

 - Posted      Profile for Sir Pellinore   Email Sir Pellinore   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
(I suppose in Justinian's fairly hate-filled world the real scumbags would be Catholic Confederates. A great twofer.)

Homophobic Catholic Confederates. Trifecta!

--------------------
Well...

Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357

 - Posted      Profile for Justinian   Email Justinian   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
it wasn't meant to be interesting. It was meant to be thorough. To demonstrate that Alogon doesn't have a leg to stand on. I'm sorry that it wasn't written for your entertainment.

Are you by any chance a shut-in or currently unemployed?
Procrastinating big time.

--------------------
My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.

Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.

Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
That has to be the longest Hell OP in history. And the most boring.

TLDR.

*Yawn*

I was hoping the hosts would consider the lifting of substantial tracts of text to be in breach of copyright and abridge it, by some means or another.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

 - Posted      Profile for Dark Knight   Email Dark Knight   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
Sorry, hadn't read all the way through. Just a kneejerk.

Why would you read it all the way through? You don't have to. But poor old Pete, and Marvin, and double Think do. Probably why they hate posts which complain about OPs. Because everyone else can just scroll right on by, but they have to read the whole fucking dog's breakfast.
Any chance I can get a summary, Pete? What is Justinian on about? [Big Grin]

[ 28. July 2012, 17:18: Message edited by: Dark Knight ]

--------------------
So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Uncle Pete

Loyaute me lie
# 10422

 - Posted      Profile for Uncle Pete     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Well, Darkie, let's see.

Justinian supports the North
He thinks Alogon is a slave-beating Southern supporter

I like mint juleps. (I had one once.)

Will that do?

--------------------
Even more so than I was before

Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I was hoping the hosts would consider the lifting of substantial tracts of text to be in breach of copyright and abridge it, by some means or another.

I have looked at all of the links and quoted texts, and IMO none are in violation of our anti-copyright policy (as I understand it).

Marvin
Hellhost

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

 - Posted      Profile for Evensong   Author's homepage   Email Evensong   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think that was a joke Marvin.

(But I sympathize. It's often hard to tell with Catholics)

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

 - Posted      Profile for Ricardus   Author's homepage   Email Ricardus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
ISTM that wanting to believe people are better than they are is a morally commendable urge, even if misguided.

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597

 - Posted      Profile for Stetson     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
ISTM that wanting to believe people are better than they are is a morally commendable urge, even if misguided.

Yes, if the overestimation is distributed evenly and without prejudice, ie. you tend to think that everyone is better than they really are.

On the other hand, if you constantly overestimate the moral goodness of, let's say, your own children, while taking an unsparingly realist view of everyone else's children, not so commendable. That's essentially a form of narcissim by proxy.

And with it comes to political and cultural comparisons, the urge becomes even more questionable. Because in those realms most people tend to be pursuing self-serving agendas. You know the drill: "Their country is engaged in imperialist thuggery; my country is just trying to spread its enlightened values to the world."

[ 29. July 2012, 23:46: Message edited by: Stetson ]

Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597

 - Posted      Profile for Stetson     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Sorry.

quote:
And with it comes to political and cultural comparisons
That should read "And when it..."

Also, misspelled "narcissism".

Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091

 - Posted      Profile for EtymologicalEvangelical   Email EtymologicalEvangelical   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian
Alogon, you are a vile piece of work, trying to minimise the evils of slavery and launch apologetics for a government deliberately set up to perpetuate slavery.

What never ceases to amaze me with people like Justinian is that one minute they rant and rave about some social evil, assuming that we are all nodding our heads in agreement, and then the next minute they argue that morality is entirely subjective, because they cannot stomach the logical implications of moral outrage.

I think it's called "cognitive dissonance" - an obvious symptom of holding to a philosophy which doesn't fit reality.

--------------------
You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis

Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

 - Posted      Profile for mdijon     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
and then the next minute they argue that morality is entirely subjective

Some people do argue that, but not nearly as many as are said to argue that. Are you sure Justinian argues that or do you just think he argues that?

--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
What never ceases to amaze me with people like Justinian is that one minute they rant and rave about some social evil, assuming that we are all nodding our heads in agreement, and then the next minute they argue that morality is entirely subjective, because they cannot stomach the logical implications of moral outrage.

So are you saying you don't agree?

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian
Alogon, you are a vile piece of work, trying to minimise the evils of slavery and launch apologetics for a government deliberately set up to perpetuate slavery.

What never ceases to amaze me with people like Justinian is that one minute they rant and rave about some social evil, assuming that we are all nodding our heads in agreement, and then the next minute they argue that morality is entirely subjective, because they cannot stomach the logical implications of moral outrage.

I think it's called "cognitive dissonance" - an obvious symptom of holding to a philosophy which doesn't fit reality.

If greed, selfishness or old-fashioned stupidity don't cover it, I rarely find it amounts to anything of substance.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250

 - Posted      Profile for irish_lord99     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
What never ceases to amaze me with people like Justinian is that one minute they rant and rave about some social evil, assuming that we are all nodding our heads in agreement, and then the next minute they argue that morality is entirely subjective, because they cannot stomach the logical implications of moral outrage.

I think it's called "cognitive dissonance" - an obvious symptom of holding to a philosophy which doesn't fit reality.

As Justinian pointed out in the thread to which you're obviously referring, your definition of 'subjective' is utter bullshit; hence, everytime you try to reiterate Justinian's position on the subject you set up yet another straw man to keep company with the multi-generational straw-man clan that you've been breeding from your keyboard in nearly every discussion I've seen you take part of on these boards.

Come to think of you set up another by giving a reason for his position that he's never expressed: "because they cannot stomach the logical implications of moral outrage."

EtymologicalEvangelical: Ship's Strawman

--------------------
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain

Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged
Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513

 - Posted      Profile for Alogon   Email Alogon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
By way of olive branch, I posted this comment a few days ago at Amazon basically supporting a critic who had a lot of trouble stomaching Berman's book for the same reason that Justinian would. I even included some of his points. He'd better be right in his historical observations! [Big Grin] I wouldn't have expressed this opinion prior to our exchange.


Comments on Why America Failed

--------------------
Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29

 - Posted      Profile for Siegfried   Author's homepage   Email Siegfried   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Could someone post a cliff notes version of the OP? I think I might agree with it, but honestly, my eyes glazed over. Maybe bullet points?

--------------------
Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!

Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250

 - Posted      Profile for irish_lord99     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
Could someone post a cliff notes version of the OP? I think I might agree with it, but honestly, my eyes glazed over. Maybe bullet points?

Slavery bad.

Alogon say slavery not that bad.

Bad Alogon, bad!

[ 01. August 2012, 18:33: Message edited by: irish_lord99 ]

--------------------
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain

Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged
Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29

 - Posted      Profile for Siegfried   Author's homepage   Email Siegfried   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm for the hell call simply on the pretentiousness of Alogon's prose--he used both "vis-a-vis" and "facile" in a single sentence.

--------------------
Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!

Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

 - Posted      Profile for Dark Knight   Email Dark Knight   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
Could someone post a cliff notes version of the OP? I think I might agree with it, but honestly, my eyes glazed over. Maybe bullet points?

Pete did that already.
I can understand not reading the OP, but way to make it clear you hadn't read any of the thread at all

--------------------
So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29

 - Posted      Profile for Siegfried   Author's homepage   Email Siegfried   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
If you're going to call someone to hell, it's usually good to make it clear at the start of your post what the issue is. Wading through 3+ screens to get to the meat generally means that you're nitpicking. Or a bad writer.
And yes, I read through the thread, but again, you really need a good OP for a good discussion.

But then, as I said, the linked post from Algon was rather densely written with lots of "I did well on my SAT"-type words, so I guess the hell call was a good match.

--------------------
Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!

Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged


 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools