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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Summer season of miracles
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
Summertime, conferences, and tales of miraculous events. My contribution from Newday.
Any more for any more?
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Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
That's a Purgatory thread right there...
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
If (by some miracle) this turns into any kind of discussion, we need something rather more than mere links. (Have I ever mentioned I dislike threads of that nature? Let me now.)
Obviously, we have a range on offer, from awestruck wonder to enthusiastic denunciation. Decide amongst yourselves, and the thread will be re-homed as required.
Firenze
Heaven Host
[ 18. August 2012, 15:49: Message edited by: Firenze ]
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Never heard of New Day. I heard a lot of similar stories from Bible Weeks back in the 1980s and '90s though, but with very little evidence to back any of the claims up. There may be some truth in some of these stories, I dunno.
It ain't really an issue for me because I'm not likely to go to conferences like this.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Obviously, we have a range on offer, from awestruck wonder to enthusiastic denunciation. Decide amongst yourselves, and the thread will be re-homed as required.
Firenze
Heaven Host
Please miss, can it be sent to Purgatory?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Hee hee ...
Well, I noticed on a comment on the Facebook thread running from the New Day piece that someone was looking for the day when these things don't just happen in the big festivals but in our churches week-by-week ...
Well, after 30 years I'm still waiting for that to happen and I suspect I'll be waiting for a good while longer yet ...
Is that Purgatorial enough?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Hee hee ...
Well, I noticed on a comment on the Facebook thread
Hah. I have a whole Purgatorial post lined up just on the opening sentence of the OP!!
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Sandemaniac
Shipmate
# 12829
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Posted
I'd be more impressed if someone born with perfect hearing had been struck deaf during "Shine Jesus Shine", or perhaps if Shepton Mallet hadn't sold out of rubbers during Greenbelt.
However, if you want a real miracle, I've actually got some veg to harvest despite the weather.
AG
Posts: 3574 | From: The wardrobe of my soul | Registered: Jul 2007
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
You can't wait can you, Eutychus? I can feel you poised ...
Come on, kindly Hosts, put Euty out of his misery.
I'm all for liturgical seasons and so on but find it hard to understand why the Almighty apparently reserves his wonder-working power for the summer season's festivals.
Funny that ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
The man from Del Purgatorio, he say yes.
Off you go.
Firenze
Heaven Host
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Mwa ha ha ha ... mwa ha ha ha ha ...
'He holds him with his glittering eye -
Ramarius stood still,
With ghastly Gamaliel on his side,
Eutychus has his will.'
(with apologies to Samuel Taylor Coleridge, 'The Rime of the Ancient Mariner')
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
First off, I believe any and all genuine healing of any kind to be from God, and that God sometimes does effect physical healing today.
So for all genuine healings, praise God.
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
Summertime, conferences
The implication here is that God is more likely to do miracles at special conferences during the summer. It cheapens God and miracles to about the level of donkey rides on the sea front. If miracles are real, they are not entertainment or some sort of sideshow attraction.
quote:
and tales of miraculous events
That is precisely what we can do without, in my opinion.
You need look no further than here to see how poor fact-checking leads to deception. If there's one place we don't need "tales", it's when we're dealing with alleged supernatural events. If people can't be bothered to check or record names and addresses, that opens up a whole big gap into which fraud can step very easily for a whole variety of reasons.
Sure, the link takes us to details of names and locations for some 'minor' healings, but for some reason not for the 'major' headline healing of deafness.
Why, if God is doing such massively supernatural things, are the people reporting it not taking it more seriously?
That will do for starters.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
First off, I believe any and all genuine healing of any kind to be from God, and that God sometimes does effect physical healing today.
So for all genuine healings, praise God.
And for all the miracles God avoids bothering with, and for all of those of us who God just ignores and allows to die and suffer, gee thanks ever so much Mr. Damn*.
*God's apparent last name. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
[ 18. August 2012, 23:06: Message edited by: no prophet ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
And for all the miracles God avoids bothering with, and for all of those of us who God just ignores and allows to die and suffer, gee thanks ever so much Mr. Damn
My sympathies. But then again that was pretty much Job's take.
(Besides, I think that pretty much all of us end up dying, but I haven't got to that part of my argument yet...)
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sandemaniac:
if Shepton Mallet hadn't sold out of rubbers during Greenbelt.
A quick thought. I've heard the point about condoms and Shelton mallet made a few times, as if it therefore follows that all these 13 & 14 year old Christians are shagging away at soul survivor, or there's some hypocrisy going on. But ISTM that it's a red herring.
Firstly, these 13 & 14 year olds don't go to SS on their own. They're accompanied by youth leaders, often married couples that take young people from their churches. Secondly, the young people stay on site. It's that bit far to walk to Shelton mallet, so you have to drive, so anyone that ends up buying johnnies there is most likely driving there to buy food for their group, and therefore is at least 17.
Shelton mallet isn't a huge place, so I don't think it's much of a surprise that it sells out of condoms when thousands and thousands of youth leaders (often married and at the very least over the age of consent) descend on it.
I'm not saying that there aren't any young people getting jiggly - we took 20 young people from our youth group this year; half were well-behaved churched young people, the other half were kids from the local estate - what do you expect your average 15 year old?
But this "OMG Shepton Mallet sells out of condoms every year" that I've heard many times, mainly here on the ship, seems to me to be a great headline with little substance to the story.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
But this "OMG Shepton Mallet sells out of condoms every year" that I've heard many times, mainly here on the ship, seems to me to be a great headline with little substance to the story.
In fact, it's no better than the story of resurrections in Brazil.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
But this "OMG Shepton Mallet sells out of condoms every year" that I've heard many times, mainly here on the ship, seems to me to be a great headline with little substance to the story.
In fact, it's no better than the story of resurrections in Brazil.
I hadn't heard about them before, but after a brief google, surely the Brazil story is far, far worse (assuming that the 'ressurections' were a bunch of lies, which seems pretty plain)?
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
But this "OMG Shepton Mallet sells out of condoms every year" that I've heard many times, mainly here on the ship, seems to me to be a great headline with little substance to the story.
In fact, it's no better than the story of resurrections in Brazil.
Indeed a rational consideration of the facts surrounding this allegation makes it VERY unlikely; whilst it seems possible that this MAY have happened once, the probability that the retailers of Shepton Mallet getting it wrong every year seems rather low - after all we're not talking about something that is going to go off quickly, so that there is any sort of risk in raising your wholesale order for. So it seems this is cheap point scoring ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
half were well-behaved churched young people, the other half were kids from the local estate - what do you expect your average 15 year old?
A quick note on this, thanks to a helpful PM. This was not meant to imply that church kids are good and estate kids are bad (we live on said estate, so does that mean that our daughter is good or bad?). Just that the kids from our church that we took were very well behaved (sometimes infuriatingly!) middle class kids, and the kids we took from the estate are more normal, with a few challenging ones. Just a description of the kids we took, not a judgment call on different backgrounds in general.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I do find it odd that you should assume, Goperryrevs, that married couples and youth leaders would be using condoms during their week at Soul Survivor. Married couples may use condoms occasionally, but I wouldn't imagine it would be their normal practice given the availability of the Pill and other means of contraception - Dutch caps, vasectomies ... although I suspect most yoof and church leaders at Soul Survivor would be too young to consider having the snip.
I could speculate that they're wanting not to soil their sleeping bags - but that could become salacious.
On balance, I suggest that this might well be an urban myth. Revivalism has always been attended by stories of sexual licence ... 'twas always said that the number of unmarried pregnancies shot up after every frontier revival in the US or every Camp Meeting and convention ...
Heck, I've even heard stories of couples canoodling in the woods or even under the wagons used as temporary preaching platforms while the revival-meetings were in progress.
Like all such stories, there may be a grain of truth in it - the sexes didn't mix much in those days so a bit of adrenalin from pumped-up preaching and singing might well have led to some young people getting carried away around the periphery of the crowd etc. But I'm sure such stories have been exaggerated in the telling.
A bit like the summer stories of miraculous healings we get this time of year, I suspect ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
A bit like the summer stories of miraculous healings we get this time of year, I suspect ...
That was kind of my point. In a thread about unsubstantiated stories, we have unsubstantiated stories about the people telling the unsubstantiated stories. We all have our blind spots.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I do find it odd that you should assume, Goperryrevs, that married couples and youth leaders would be using condoms during their week at Soul Survivor.
btw, I wasn't assuming that. I was saying that, when you're talking about thousands and thousands of people, then there's probably enough of them using condoms to impact the sales in a small town, and that's not groundbreaking.
But perhaps you're right, it could also well be an urban myth. Either way, I've seen the Soul Survivor / condoms things said enough times that I thought it was worth picking up on this time, as I think it's a cheap shot without much substance.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sure, I think we're on a similar page, Goperryrevs, I'm sure it's a cheap shot without substance too. Equally, I think that some of the miracle stories are without a great deal of substance as well.
Reading the New Day link which Ramarius supplied, I did notice that there were apparently substantiated stories from the previous year's event. Reading some of them, such as the one about the girl from Keswick who had apparently recovered from a gluten allergy, I felt pleased on their behalf. If that has taken place and is a sign of God's healing, then all praise and glory be to God on high.
However, I find myself puzzled and wary at the stories of people saying that they no longer need glasses - as if the wearing of spectacles is some kind of terrible curse. I wear glasses. Does that mean that I lack the faith to be healed of my 'affliction' or that God loves some of these people more than he loves me because he's chosen to miraculously heal them of myopia?
The dyslexia thing I've heard before ... it seems a 'standard' at events of this kind.
I'm not sure any of the stories add up to evidence that God is at work in any more strikingly supernatural way than is generally the case. Some people may have been healed in response to prayer, some may have recovered from certain ailments or conditions apparently spontaneously - it happens, talk to any medic or physiotherapist - some might be imagining themselves to have been healed.
There'll be a mixture of all these things. 'Twas ever thus and 'twill ever be thus. Move along, folks, there's nothing to see ...
Incidentally, I think Eutychus's seaside donkey-ride analogy is a pertinent one. Also the fact that some of these events take place in large circus-style tents provides another clue as to what goes on in them ...
(Starts to whistle ... 'Send in the clowns ...')
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
However, I find myself puzzled and wary at the stories of people saying that they no longer need glasses - as if the wearing of spectacles is some kind of terrible curse. I wear glasses. Does that mean that I lack the faith to be healed of my 'affliction' or that God loves some of these people more than he loves me because he's chosen to miraculously heal them of myopia?
Me too. And I get that, though you can use that argument about anyone that gets healed when someone else doesn't. Or even about people that have good things when others lack. Does God love those people more? The Christian answer (which incidentally Mr Pilovacci (spl?)) was banging on about last week is surely that it's our job to go and do those things - look after the poor, broken, hungry - praying for healing is part of that, whether people get healed or not.
I do think that we can decide what God can or cannot do sometimes. Yeah, I wear glasses too, and I couldn't care less whether God 'heals' me of that. It would be nice if he 'healed' my beer belly a bit... But if God actually does heal someone of their myopia (if he actually has), then who am I to tell him he shouldn't? It's up to him. I'm wary of the 'God doesn't do that' style arguments, because I was originally very sceptical of (for example) people 'falling over', until it happened to me out of th blue. I'm still cautious, and I'm still sure much of it is manufactured, but I'm less inclined to tell God what he should or shouldn't do now...
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
First off, I believe any and all genuine healing of any kind to be from God, and that God sometimes does effect physical healing today.
So for all genuine healings, praise God.
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
Summertime, conferences
The implication here is that God is more likely to do miracles at special conferences during the summer. It cheapens God and miracles to about the level of donkey rides on the sea front. If miracles are real, they are not entertainment or some sort of sideshow attraction.
Sure, the link takes us to details of names and locations for some 'minor' healings, but for some reason not for the 'major' headline healing .
Eutychus - really, *what is your problem?* I am *not*'implying that God is more likely to heal people at a conference than anywhere else. This was posted in Heaven as an opportunity for shipmates to share testimonies of healing. The only person 'cheapening' miracles here is you - with your comment about 'minor' and ''major' healing. There is nothing 'minor' about these healings for the people who have received them.
We've all had to walk with people who haven't been healed. I've wept with those who wept and had people weep with me.
But that doesn't stop me rejoicing with people who rejoice. Quite why you can't seem to be able to do the same is getting beyond me.
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Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
This was posted in Heaven as an opportunity for shipmates to share testimonies of healing.
Really?
Even without the question I thought you were questioning the 'phenomenon' of miracles happening during the hype of summer camps etc.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
This was posted in Heaven as an opportunity for shipmates to share testimonies of healing.
Really?
Even without the question I thought you were questioning the 'phenomenon' of miracles happening during the hype of summer camps etc.
Back to Heaven for another shot then....
Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
I am not 'implying that God is more likely to heal people at a conference than anywhere else'.
It's hard to make sense of your words any other way.
quote:
shipmates to share testimonies of healing
What you posted there was not a testimony of healing. It was a link to someone else's testimony of alleged healing. The difference is crucial. More on this in a minute.
quote:
The only person 'cheapening' miracles here is you - with your comment about 'minor' and ''major' healing. There is nothing 'minor' about these healings for the people who have received them.
What I meant was that there is a difference of degree in the physiological unexpectedness (or "wow factor") of the deafness testimony (quote: Born deaf in both ears, now healed!). Of course all healing is welcome for the sufferer. But there's a big difference between healing of deafness and healing of allergies.
quote:
Quite why you can't seem to be able to do the same is getting beyond me.
You obviously didn't read the part of my post where I said I rejoiced in all healing.
Here are a few more of my objections to the take of your OP.
1. ISTM that a testimony of healing is for the beneficiary to share, or perhaps others involved. The less we abide by that principle, the more scope there is for inaccurate reporting and/or wilful distorsion to intervene. If they do, we are relaying untruth, and doing so in the context of the Gospel. That seems like a bad idea to me.
2. I'm not even sure that testimonies of healing (still less second-hand ones) are generally for sharing. If you apply the "what would Jesus do" test to healing testimonies, the answer seems to be he would say "STFU" (but that people would probably go on testifying anyway). Have you ever wondered why he might be so insistent on that point?
3. I am of the firm conviction that on a pro rata basis, no more actual healing occurs at special christian events than among the christian population as a whole, wherever they are and however good the worship band is. In fact my guess is that there are probably fewer healings. Why? Because what's reported is so much hype. Have you really forgotten when NBC investigated Todd Bentley's meetings in Lakeland and was unable to find a single substantiated testimony of healing?
4. Gamaliel and goperryrevs have discussed the point at length above, but I object to unsubstantiated claims, whether they are about condom supplies in Shepton Mallet or healing of deaf ears. If people discuss economics or law in Purgatory they are called upon to supply their sources. Why should there be a lower standard of debate for healing? I'm sorry, but until better evidence emerges I'm highly sceptical of the 'healing of the deaf' testimony. We are told nothing about it other than that it happened. Why am I sceptical? Because sixteen dead Brazilians were not resurrected, and Bethel still hasn't admitted it. Because when I investigated Chad Dedmon's oft-repeated story of supermarket healings (the Ship thread with the details seems to have disappeared), it turned out that nobody at the store in question could remember anything about it. The culture in these events is to go wild at what looks like a fulfilment of the theological assumptions and think 'oh, we'll check that out later'. Before anybody does, the next spiritual shiny thing has arrived and nobody has checked anything. The whole thing is a vehicle for self-deception, and I'm not quite sure who's laughing.
I think the Church, and the charismatic church in particular, runs a terrible danger of preferring entertainment and second-hand experience at the expense of truth, whether it's in regard to healing or any other out-of-the-ordinary "tale".
To me that spells deception.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
For the sake of completeness, a couple of links:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Why am I sceptical? Because sixteen dead Brazilians were not resurrected, and Bethel still hasn't admitted it.
In case you missed my link to this story (as discussed on the Ship) higher up, here it is.
quote:
Because when I investigated Chad Dedmon's oft-repeated story of supermarket healings (the Ship thread with the details seems to have disappeared), it turned out that nobody at the store in question could remember anything about it.
After ages reading through Oblivion, I found it (and Google didn't). Link
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I know you probably didn't intend it that way, Ramarius, but the tone of your OP in Heaven was rather along the lines of 'Read any good books lately?'
It sounded rather like someone posting a thread like, 'What abiding memories will you have of the Olympics?'
Or 'Where did you go on holiday this summer and what were the highlights?'
It was the implicit suggestion that all these testimonies at the big ra-ra-ra rallies are somehow worthy of all acceptation and that the rest of us can't wait for the summer hols each year so we can get ourselves along to one or other of them.
The reality is, as Eutychus says, that there is a lot of hype and sound and fury signifying very little. I've not been to any of the big Christian rallies for many years nor do I intend to start attending them now. There are plenty of ways to express one's faith as a Christian without attending whatever the current equivalent of Adrian Plass's 'Let God Break Forth Into Songs of Harvest Triumph' or whatever it was.
If ever a thread deserved to be taken from Heaven into Purgatory it was this one.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sandemaniac:
I'd be more impressed if someone born with perfect hearing had been struck deaf during "Shine Jesus Shine", or perhaps if Shepton Mallet hadn't sold out of rubbers during Greenbelt.
It's amusing that half way down the thread this morphed from being about Greenbelt to Soul Survivor (which actually *has* been put on near Shepton Mallet).
Back at the height of Greenbelt (before they had a few years of disastrous missteps and the other festivals caught up in numbers), this was exactly the sort of thing repeated in evangelical circles as reasons for why 'we' should start up our own festivals.
As someone said up thread, the statistic itself is probably fairly insignificant ('Shepton Mallet runs out of X during Y' is not sensational for every value of X).
What's more interesting is the way it functions as a Christian urban legend of sorts - similar to those tales I've heard repeated about people being raised from the dead in Brazil.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
@Eutychus. You wrote "2. I'm not even sure that testimonies of healing (still less second-hand ones) are generally for sharing. If you apply the "what would Jesus do" test to healing testimonies, the answer seems to be he would say "STFU" (but that people would probably go on testifying anyway). Have you ever wondered why he might be so insistent on that point?"
And if Jesus was so insistent on this point have you ever wondered why the apostolic testimony underlying the Gospels insists on recording these events? Or why Jeus's miracles were a key plank in the apostolic preaching? Or why Jesus himself describes them as 'signs' which will follow apostolic preaching. Or why, at the Council of Jerusalem, Paul and Barbabbas point to healing as a validation of the ministry to the Gentiles?
And what on earth have events in the United States got to do with events in Norfolk?
You praise God for genuine healings. Great. Share some examples that happened outside your own church and we'll join you in celebrating them.
Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
What's more interesting is the way it functions as a Christian urban legend of sorts - similar to those tales I've heard repeated about people being raised from the dead in Brazil.
The former is probably something said in jest that became taken seriously, whereas the latter appears to have been a case of Munchausen's by proxy that targeted Bethel (the catch is that Bethel would still have you believe that the underlying story is true ).
Both are an example of what is known as the Illusory Truth Effect. Simply put, experiments suggest that the more times you hear something arresting, the more likely you are to think it's true.
Where this gets really pernicious is that it seems to apply even when the communication is about denying the information. We have a tendency to latch onto the sensational story rather than its denial.
Which is why checking sources is so important.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
And if Jesus was so insistent on this point have you ever wondered why the apostolic testimony underlying the Gospels insists on recording these events? Or why Jeus's miracles were a key plank in the apostolic preaching? Or why Jesus himself describes them as 'signs' which will follow apostolic preaching. Or why, at the Council of Jerusalem, Paul and Barbabbas point to healing as a validation of the ministry to the Gentiles?
I'm not sure answering my question with another question is valid (even if it is what Jesus did).
I think Jesus told beneficiaries of miracles to stay quiet precisely because, as you admit, these miracles were signs of something else. He didn't want people focusing on the miracles. He practically says so in so many words.
Jesus and the apostles point to miracles as signs that the Kingdom is there - after the fact.
Meanwhile, the logic in the signs and wonders camp seems to be that if we can just manage to put up some signs, then the Kingdom must be there.
I think that is precisely the wrong way round.
It puts all the emphasis on the signs and means people direct their efforts at making the signs happen. Hence all this nonsense about "press into these things".
What does it say about the Lakeland revival that not a single one of the much-touted "signs" has been substantiated? What might that be doing to the faith of those involved? Where's the Kingdom in all that?
quote:
And what on earth have events in the United States got to do with events in Norfolk?
Well, the comments section of the blog you linked to suggests to me that the Kingdom Now theology beloved of Bethel is alive and well at Newday.
More importantly, what these events have in common - or at least the reporting thereof - is the total lack of editorial rigour that I think should be required for such (on the face of it) amazing claims.
Let me ask you a straight question (more may follow). At the end of the day, do you really care whether these testimonies are true?
quote:
Share some examples that happened outside your own church and we'll join you in celebrating them.
I've already explained why I don't think that's appropriate, but here we go again.
1) If I share something that momentous, I want to be as sure as I can that it's true. More often than not (but not always), the stories I've investigated have turned out not to be true.
2) I think that any testimony I give should be first-hand. There's too much faith by proxy around.
3) Even if I have first-hand testimony, it may not always be appropriate to share it. Haven't you read the bit in Corinthians where Paul talks about the visions he had that he was not permitted to share? Not everything we experience with God is right to be splurged on a blogpost.
And also meanwhile, Adrian Holloway appears to have pulled the post as linked to by you originally*. Adrian, if you're reading the Ship, hello. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Ramarius, now it's been pulled (at least for now), are you still keen to share these "tales"?
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[ETA for clarity, here is a link to the post as it was when this discussion started.]
[ 19. August 2012, 18:45: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Drewthealexander
Shipmate
# 16660
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Posted
Like Gamaliel I tracked down some of the testimonies from last year's Newday. which are quite inspiring. Personally I don't think we should be shy in testifying to answers to prayer of any description. On this discussion board, Heaven seems to be the appropriate place for that.
I must confess this is the first time I've seen the suggestion that it is possibly inappropriate to share testimony of healing. Some study of discussions following on from Wrede's Messiannic secret theis would shed light on that quesrion. One for Kerygmania I think.
When sharing such accounts amongst sceptics, then rigour in checking facts is essential. But unless we share a semi-deist view of God as an absentee landlord, we should surely expect him to intervene in the affairs of humanity. Indeed, if we subscribe to any form of Reformed doctrine or providence we would say that evidence of his handiwork is universal.
And I think it would be somewhat sad if we were to feel unable can't share accounts of God's providence on a Christian disucssion board,
Posts: 499 | Registered: Sep 2011
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Drewthealexander
Shipmate
# 16660
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Posted
Like Gamaliel I tracked down some of the testimonies from last year's Newday. which are quite inspiring. Personally I don't think we should be shy in testifying to answers to prayer of any description. On this discussion board, Heaven seems to be the appropriate place for that.
I must confess this is the first time I've seen the suggestion that it is possibly inappropriate to share testimony of healing. Some study of discussions following on from Wrede's Messiannic secret theis would shed light on that quesrion. One for Kerygmania I think.
When sharing such accounts amongst sceptics, then rigour in checking facts is essential. But unless we share a semi-deist view of God as an absentee landlord, we should surely expect him to intervene in the affairs of humanity. Indeed, if we subscribe to any form of Reformed doctrine or providence we would say that evidence of his handiwork is universal.
And I think it would be somewhat sad if we were to feel unable can't share such accounts of God's providence on a Christian disucssion board,
Posts: 499 | Registered: Sep 2011
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
“Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous.”
― Albert Einstein, The World as I See It
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Drewthealexander:
Personally I don't think we should be shy in testifying to answers to prayer of any description. On this discussion board, Heaven seems to be the appropriate place for that.
Well, there's a perfectly good and longstanding thread on the appropriate board, which is actually All Saints.
Just why Ramarius thought his subject worthy of a distinct thread is not clear at this point.
Most importantly of all, the OP was not a personal testimony.
When the day comes for us to give an account of ourselves, I don't think God's going to be expecting a list of the conferences we've been to or the christian paperbacks we've read.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
It seems to me, Drewthealexander, that we are expected to exercise faith, not credulity. 'Test everything ...'
I really don't see how it is inappropriate to question the claims made on the New Day blogs and website. As it happens, in my response to it I suggested that whilst I was pleased to read that people had apparently recovered from particular ailments and allergies, I also expressed reservations about some of the stories - particularly those involving people apparently being 'healed' of having to wear glasses.
I am not claiming that God is non-interventionist and some kind of absentee landlord - and, it seems to me, that one doesn't have to sign-up for a Reformed (big R) or reformed (small r) position to take that line on things - heck, RCs and Orthodox believe in an interventionist God and they are not Reformed.
No, what I was having a go at was the rather glib and shallow, it seems to me, suggestion that somehow these things are an expected and regular feature of the seasonal evangelical charismatic conferences and festivals. Like Eutychus, I don't believe that healings and miraculous occurrences are any more likely or more regular at these events than they are in 'normal' church or everyday life ...
What we see so often at events like this is a greater propensity for self-fulfilling prophecies and over-realised claims. The same would be true on an RC healing pilgrimage or similar event in other Christian traditions.
That's not to say that healings don't take place in response to prayer. I don't see anyone here denying that.
Equally, if you've been around a while you may have come across the mantra 'But this is not a Christian website ...' in response to shocked reactions such as yours - 'Really, people on a Christian website arguing that we should share testimonies ...'
As Eutychus has said, there are other Boards here for people who wish to share testimonies and give thanks for answered prayer and so on.
This is the 'Magazine of Christian Unrest' not the 'Magazine of Taking Everything At Face Value and Not Questioning The Claims Made At Popular Christian Conferences.'
There are plenty of websites out there that do just that. This isn't one of them.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sorry, that should have read .. 'Really, people on a Christian website arguing that we shouldn't share testimonies ...'
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Drewthealexander:
When sharing such accounts amongst sceptics, then rigour in checking facts is essential.
No, no, no!
When sharing such accounts among anyone at all, rigour in checking facts is essential. Your additional qualification is unnecessary and revealing. Sadly, this comment betrays the attitude that it's fine to play fast and loose with the truth, telling unverified tenth-hand stories with all the embellishment (deliberate or inadvertent) that goes with that sort of myth, just as long as it doesn't reach the ears of people who will question the story or check your sources.
And to think that you'd consider this to be proclaiming the Gospel...
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
It was once suggested to me on these Boards that my default position in the face of stories/accounts like this was to show initial scepticism until convinced otherwise.
This was touted as some kind of implicit criticism. It may even have mooted by Ramarius, but I can't remember rightly.
I would turn the thing round and suggest that Ramarius, Drewthealexander and other well-meaning but possibly naive Shipmates approach things from the opposite direction and tend to be credulous until such accounts can be disproven.
Just because something comes from an established or respect (in their view) Christian conference then they are inclined to take it as read.
I think what Eutychus and I are suggesting is that because these stories emerge from conferences and large-scale events then the very nature of things suggest that there might be a suspension of normal, 'critical' faculties and a willingness to go along with platform-cues and claims made in the heat of the moment - many of which clearly do not stand the test of time.
I don't think either of us are saying that events like New Day and New Wine and so on are evil, wicked and sinful. Just that there is going to be a greater propensity for people to see what they want to see in such circumstances.
It's like the people who gathered to watch the eyes of a statue of the Virgin Mary 'move' in the West of Ireland a few years back now. If you gather with a crowd and stare long and hard enough you'll soon convince yourself that you're seeing something happening ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Like Eutychus, I don't believe that healings and miraculous occurrences are any more likely or more regular at these events than they are in 'normal' church or everyday life ...
I find this interesting. I want to agree with you, and if it was up to me, then I'd make it that way.
But my experience says otherwise. Maybe it's not so much about the miraculous occurrences, but about the tangible experiences with God (which might include miraculous occurrences).
For some reason, when I do take time out - at a Christian event, on a retreat, a church weekend away, or whatever it is - time devoted to doing "God" stuff, rather than my mundane day-to-day stuff, then those are the times that I can remember God seeming to be more real, and they are the times I have stories from - "this is what happened, God did this".
That's not to denigrate the day to day Christian walk. It's where the hard graft happens, and where we grow in the slow but sure way.
But I do think there is something 'special' about these kind of events and retreats - even if it's just that they give people a good kick up the arse so that they think about taking their faith seriously when they get back home (which does often seem to happen). Maybe it's just that God says "we'll you've given yourself to getting 4 hours sleep a night in a shitty tent in a muddy field, so here's something nice in return". I don't know.
Like I say, I want to agree with you - I'm definitely not a fan of the rollercoaster event-high/life-low that some Christians seem to get from these events - almost that they need a 'hit' every few months to keep their spiritual life going. But yeah, I do think there's something different about camps and retreats - not better, just different.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
What I'm clear about is that the same standard of honesty in the face of the facts and experiences should apply to accounts of, or involvement in, miraculous-looking events as in anything else. And that applies not just to what happens, but where it happens and what you say about it to anybody else.
There's a matter of personal integrity involved in that. Also of Christian obedience. The ninth commandment is a good standard to live by.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
quote:
Originally posted by Drewthealexander:
When sharing such accounts amongst sceptics, then rigour in checking facts is essential.
No, no, no!
When sharing such accounts among anyone at all, rigour in checking facts is essential. Your additional qualification is unnecessary and revealing. Sadly, this comment betrays the attitude that it's fine to play fast and loose with the truth, telling unverified tenth-hand stories with all the embellishment (deliberate or inadvertent) that goes with that sort of myth, just as long as it doesn't reach the ears of people who will question the story or check your sources.
And to think that you'd consider this to be proclaiming the Gospel...
Interesting point. I think what this is getting at is that it is legitimate to trust a story from a reliable source if you are telling it to people from your immediate fellowship, but need to be more sceptical if it's going to be heard by non-Christians. The problem, of course, is what to class as a reliable source. For example there was documentary on BBC2 broadcast in December 2010 called 'The American Dream' that had a section that seemed to show a boy being healed of serious lameness by Oral Roberts in the 1950s; he had needed crutches. On it the boy, Gary Pridmore, now an adult, talked us through the event and that it had indeed ended his need for crutches, so much so that he ended up fighting in Vietnam. (The fifties recording, no later input) Of course there are those who would claim either that he was lying, or that it was 'natural'. and, to be fair to Rome, they seem to work hard these days at evidencing the miracles that justify their designation of people as saints. (I wonder whether this is why Calvinists and others tend to be cessationists - allows them to avoid the question: 'Didn't God cure X through the intercessions of St Y?'
At the other end of the spectrum is 'I went to church feeling really awful but God truly spoke to me...'. Certainly there is a need for us Charismatics to be more rigorous; much of what passes for the work of God IS easily dismissed, but there are some nuggets in there that aren't so easy to reject.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
Like I say, I want to agree with you - I'm definitely not a fan of the rollercoaster event-high/life-low that some Christians seem to get from these events - almost that they need a 'hit' every few months to keep their spiritual life going. But yeah, I do think there's something different about camps and retreats - not better, just different.
I think it's striking that the Mosaic law requires everyone to go up to the temple several times a year; I suspect that experience is the same as the one we get these days from the various camps or Catholics from pilgrimages.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Interesting point. I think what this is getting at is that it is legitimate to trust a story from a reliable source if you are telling it to people from your immediate fellowship, but need to be more sceptical if it's going to be heard by non-Christians.
I suspect it is, in which case it would be wrong. That's not an interesting point, it's just basic integrity. It's not as if there's some quasi-legal evidential standard that you need to meet when talking to some people but not others, it's just that you're scared of people asking difficult questions, rather than simply accepting your account "from a friend of a friend".
If you have clear evidence of something happening, you can tell who you like. If you're worried about telling the story to someone who would actually examine it, rather than just swallowing it whole, you have insufficient evidence to pass it off as fact to anyone.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Interesting point. I think what this is getting at is that it is legitimate to trust a story from a reliable source if you are telling it to people from your immediate fellowship, but need to be more sceptical if it's going to be heard by non-Christians.
I suspect it is, in which case it would be wrong. That's not an interesting point, it's just basic integrity. It's not as if there's some quasi-legal evidential standard that you need to meet when talking to some people but not others, it's just that you're scared of people asking difficult questions, rather than simply accepting your account "from a friend of a friend".
If you have clear evidence of something happening, you can tell who you like. If you're worried about telling the story to someone who would actually examine it, rather than just swallowing it whole, you have insufficient evidence to pass it off as fact to anyone.
Thanks for making me think this through. The distinction I would draw is that if I am speaking to people in my fellowship then we would be willing to extend a degree of credibility to certain people as reliable, but would not become totally disdainful of the whole Christian experience if this trust was proved to be unfounded. By contrast a non-Christian is more likely to use any failure of a story to pan out as evidence for staying a non-Christian, a far more serious issue. Does that make sense? I don't think it's fair to say I'm scared of people asking hard questions: given that I have a few solid examples that I do trust, that others crumble in my hand is a betrayal of the trust I've placed in them. But that sort of betrayal of trust is endemic in wider society when people indulge in making up stories to make them look better; this is perhaps the religions expression of the same pathology.
It actually comes down to whom you trust. We SHOULD be able to trust church leaders. Sadly this isn't the case, but it's easier to hold a lot of the stories that I hear lightly, than worry about checking them - but I wouldn't want to use them in a discussion with a non-Christian, or even a Christian who is sceptical about these things. But I admit to be getting tired of the unfounded claims that too many of those in my fellowship do accept uncritically, and I try to resist the temptation to pass on stories which I haven't authenticated. I've already posted the Gary Pridmore story. Let me add this story, because I know the boy - now 19 - who tells it. I'm happy to point a sceptic at this because I know the person; it's the next level of networking which has come to be abused, and where we are getting rightly shredded by sceptics.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
it's easier to hold a lot of the stories that I hear lightly, than worry about checking them - but I wouldn't want to use them in a discussion with a non-Christian, or even a Christian who is sceptical about these things.
This is wronger than a wrong thing is mistaken.
I agree totally with TGG. I'm sure you don't mean it this way, but to me it sounds as if you are willing to presume on the credibility of your christian friends even if the story is not checked out. The upshot of this is that stories go unchecked. People end up with an environment of faith that's based on untruth.
Sometimes this is inconsequential, but sometimes it's not. The wilder the story, the more we have a responsibility to check it out. If it's true, it will stand the test. If we are afraid that our testimonies can't withstand the truth, there's a problem. A big one.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
I do think there's something different about camps and retreats - not better, just different.
There's good biblical precedent for mountaintop experiences. But also for coming down from the mountaintop (just when you wanted to camp there permanently).
In any event, there's certainly no precedent for a higher incidence of healings up there. And as the transfiguration account shows, the real challenges in this respect start when you get back down to real life.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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