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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Good Intentions
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
When stuff happens, people want to DO something. When tsunamis happen, many feel like they should go and hand out food. When a small vulnerable child goes missing, people volunteer to turn up and help.
Which is all fine-and-dandy and, as a recent bit of pop theology from Anne Atkins suggested, a sign that there is such thing as society. Or is it?
Aid Professionals have been talking for years about the dangers of allowing random, untrained, people in to help in disasters. Saundra Schimmelpfennig in particular has done much of the heavy work, repeatedly making the point that volunteers can make a bad situation considerably worse and that there are serious moral questions to be asked before collecting stuff to send overseas.
And then we hear today that in the most immediate (and saddening) tragedy there are tensions between police and volunteers searching for the missing child.. Objectively you'd have to believe that the police (and those who have been specially trained for this purpose) know more than the random volunteers who have turned up to help. And if the police say they don't need the help, that ought to be the end of the discussion, no?
So what I'd like to discuss here is the sense that in a bad situation a) people seem to think that by volunteering they own a problem b) that they have some kind of moral high-ground over trained professionals c) that they don't have to own or think about unintended consequences of their actions and d) that the general message of society is clearly that [b]good intentions are enough[/i].
My perception is that people actually want to do things for their own benefit, if only for the feeling of moral goodness they get from helping in a disaster or emergency situation - at the same time very few of them want to put in the hours necessary to get properly trained in advance of said situation.
And, furthermore, widely held Christian theology encourages them in this thought - with the emphasis on the value of all contributions, that God can (and will) bless anything that people give and so on.
Thoughts?
[ 04. October 2012, 11:55: Message edited by: the long ranger ]
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger
My perception is that people actually want to do things for their own benefit, if only for the feeling of moral goodness they get from helping in a disaster or emergency situation - at the same time very few of them want to put in the hours necessary to get properly trained in advance of said situation.
Yeah, I bet the Samaritan wasn't properly trained to help the poor soul who'd been beaten up. Fancy taking matters into his own hands like that! I'm sure it must have violated the victim's human rights in some way, not to mention every health and safety rule in the book.
quote:
And, furthermore, widely held Christian theology encourages them in this thought - with the emphasis on the value of all contributions, that God can (and will) bless anything that people give and so on.
Terrible, innit?
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger
My perception is that people actually want to do things for their own benefit, if only for the feeling of moral goodness they get from helping in a disaster or emergency situation - at the same time very few of them want to put in the hours necessary to get properly trained in advance of said situation.
Yeah, I bet the Samaritan wasn't properly trained to help the poor soul who'd been beaten up. Fancy taking matters into his own hands like that! I'm sure it must have violated the victim's human rights in some way, not to mention every health and safety rule in the book.
quote:
And, furthermore, widely held Christian theology encourages them in this thought - with the emphasis on the value of all contributions, that God can (and will) bless anything that people give and so on.
Terrible, innit?
You illustrate my point perfectly. 2000 year old solutions to modern problems.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger
You illustrate my point perfectly. 2000 year old solutions to modern problems.
Ah yes, of course. Never underestimate the haughty chronological hubris of the modern mind. Apparently we've "grown up" and can superciliously dispense with normal human compassion in our robotic age.
Sad. But true.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Ah yes, of course. Never underestimate the haughty chronological hubris of the modern mind. Apparently we've "grown up" and can superciliously dispense with normal human compassion in our robotic age.
Sad. But true.
Yeah, I bet you say that to your optician, doctor or surgeon when they try some of those digustingly modern techniques on your sick body. Who wouldn't want to go back to Roman era medicine?
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
It's a good point. Indeed, sometimes volunteers really do more harm than good, and yet refuse to recognize this fact themselves. Part of my job (actually these days a lot of it) centers on planning for disasters, and while my own work focuses on only one aspect (where volunteers usually are not an issue) I often attend/speak at conferences along with folks involved in all areas of emergency planning. One issue that comes up over and over again is the need to PLAN for these volunteers, and to have a system in place that allows them to fulfill their desire to help, while keeping them out of harms way, and out of the way of professional responders. A good emergency planner can predict the outflow of support (which is a GOOD thing) and plan on the best way to put it to good use.
I think that people should continue to offer to help in any emergency (whether a huge event that makes national news, or something much smaller, even on an individual basis). The impulse to help I think is most often genuine, coming from the heart, from our inborn ability to empathize with the suffering of others. AT the same time, I think that while intentions matter, so do unintended consequences. if I do harm when I meant to do good, it is still harm. We Orthodox pray for forgiveness of sins "both voluntary and involuntary....committed in knowledge or in ignorance". This doesn't mean (to me) that my intentions don't matter, just that they are not the ONLY thing that matters. yes, of course, it's horrible to INTENTIONALLY do something to harm someone else. but honestly, how often do people really do that? most of our harm to others is committed in, at worst, lack of even thinking about how our actions may impact others, and often, as in this example, when trying to do something good (overall).
Would we be talking about the Good Samaritan if, say, his moving the injured man he had, unintentionally, caused worse harm by moving the man? and what if there had been a physician there already treating the man, but the Samaritan pushed him aside saying that HIS desire to help outweighed the physicians knowledge of what to do?
It's hard to balance the two, I think, but that should be our goal! the instinct to help is good, and SHOULD be encouraged. but we should be wise about it. if an expert tells me that something I am doing is counter productive, then I am no longer acting in ignorance, am I?
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
And, furthermore, widely held Christian theology encourages them in this thought - with the emphasis on the value of all contributions, that God can (and will) bless anything that people give and so on.
I agree with your general point but the Christian tradition did also bring us the proverb 'The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.'
I think if you want to help someone you ought to find out what actually would help them, and if you're capable of bringing that. If I was going to express that in theo-speak I'd say something about 'discernment' and 'prudence' and possibly the Epistle of James.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
This is a good OP with much food for thought.
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
My perception is that people actually want to do things for their own benefit, if only for the feeling of moral goodness they get from helping in a disaster or emergency situation - at the same time very few of them want to put in the hours necessary to get properly trained in advance of said situation.
To be fair, we don't know people's motives for giving of their time, resources and energy to help out. Some will be doing it out of simple kindness and compassion, some will simply do it to feel good. Most will be a complicated mixture of the two, alongside many other motivations.
I volunteer for a Charity and I know that I care deeply for the people involved - but I also know that it makes me feel good.
It's always worth examining our motives and effectiveness - and urging others (as per the OP) to do the same.
[ 04. October 2012, 16:41: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger
Yeah, I bet you say that to your optician, doctor or surgeon when they try some of those digustingly modern techniques on your sick body. Who wouldn't want to go back to Roman era medicine?
Ever heard of something called a "false dichotomy"? Because you are guilty of committing that fallacy.
I was not promoting Roman era medicine, but talking about normal human compassion, which is timeless.
Get your logic sorted out, mate.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
I was not promoting Roman era medicine, but talking about normal human compassion, which is timeless.
Get your logic sorted out, mate.
And I'm telling you the professionals say that this is a real problem. You can dig your head into the sand and stand on a 2000 oversimplified moral example or you can admit that this is a real problem.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
And then we hear today that in the most immediate (and saddening) tragedy there are tensions between police and volunteers searching for the missing child.. Objectively you'd have to believe that the police (and those who have been specially trained for this purpose) know more than the random volunteers who have turned up to help. And if the police say they don't need the help, that ought to be the end of the discussion, no?
[...]
Thoughts?
I doubt if the police are that "specially trained" to look for lost or missing children. I can't know for sure of course but my guess about this is that the police perhaps think she is dead, and don't want to say so. And maybe they think she is not so much "missing" as being hidden by a family member or an accquaintance, so whether she is alive or dead there is no point in searching for her in the fields and forests because she is likely to be indoors. And again they don't want to say that. So its not so much that the volunteers are getting in the way as that they are doing something useless and co-ordinating with them is a waste of time. But they don't want to say that either.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger
And I'm telling you the professionals say that this is a real problem.
Are these the same kind of "professionals" who are so "well trained" that they refuse to save a drowning man, for fear of transgressing their health and safety regs?
Or are they the kind of "professionals" - health professionals in this case - who need special training courses to learn how to be compassionate?
I am certainly not knocking the nurses who ask for compassion training (given the pressure that the "science knows best" culture has put them under), although I don't think much of the emergency services who refuse to throw away the rule book to save a person's life, given that that is supposed to be their job!
But in this rather conceited culture which says that "science knows best how to care for people", and which turns its nose up at normal human responses, it is worth going back to timeless wisdom. Furthermore, you claim that those who act out of compassion are really pursuing some kind of self-centred agenda, but you have absolutely no evidence to support such an idea, and, in fact, the evidence suggests that professionals are not immune from this motive (see my point about the emergency services above).
quote:
My perception is that people actually want to do things for their own benefit, if only for the feeling of moral goodness they get from helping in a disaster or emergency situation - at the same time very few of them want to put in the hours necessary to get properly trained in advance of said situation.
Well, my perception is that your accusation against "people" (!) probably tells us more about you than anyone else.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
Now I hope I have misunderstood what has been said here.
I believe that much of what is done is from
the best of intentions , not for greed nor praise whatever.
For the Good Samaritan he acted out of concern
for the injured man , he did not care that he was a jew ,he did not care that by doing this act he was unclean . He cared for
a person in need . Sounds like an Oskar Schindler or the people who hid Anne Frank,
or the ambulance man, firefighter policeman who stand in the line of fire to save others
to them we the great unwashed say a humble thank you ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif) ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I doubt if the police are that "specially trained" to look for lost or missing children. I can't know for sure of course but my guess about this is that the police perhaps think she is dead, and don't want to say so.
I know for a fact that Mountain Rescue Teams and the Coastguard, who are involved, are trained for that. I'm not going to speculate about who believes what, but insist that there are specialists on the scene with considerable experience of finding missing people.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
It's not just emergency work - we've got services that the Government expects to be run by volunteers - and the organisations aren't necessarily that good at working with volunteers. How do you handle a volunteer who is no longer doing the job effectively, but is relying on that role? How do you deal with the volunteer who is unreliable?
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
But in this rather conceited culture which says that "science knows best how to care for people", and which turns its nose up at normal human responses, it is worth going back to timeless wisdom. Furthermore, you claim that those who act out of compassion are really pursuing some kind of self-centred agenda, but you have absolutely no evidence to support such an idea, and, in fact, the evidence suggests that professionals are not immune from this motive (see my point about the emergency services above).
Actually there is plenty of evidence that volunteers in these situations are persuing their own agendas.
Furthermore, you neatly encapsulate another dangerous idea - that volunteers are the only legitimate people in these situations because the professionals are somehow 'flawed' and 'incapable of compassion' compared to the honest volunteers.
This is a very dangerous idea. Sean Penn in Haiti claimed that he knew more about compassion and the aid business than the professionals, in the process causing an infection risk. There are professionals in this situation for a reason.
[ 04. October 2012, 18:53: Message edited by: the long ranger ]
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Actually there is plenty of evidence that volunteers in these situations are persuing their own agendas.
What situations? What are "these situations"? You only mentioned one.
And who doesn't pursue their own agenda? What's yours here? This is obviously something that pushes your buttons, but ionthe face of it what you linked to in the OP doesn't justify your anger heere. What is this thread actually about?
quote:
Furthermore, you neatly encapsulate another dangerous idea - that volunteers are the only legitimate people in these situations because the professionals are somehow 'flawed' and 'incapable of compassion' compared to the honest volunteers.
Did he send you a PM? Because what he wrote here doesn't say anything like that at all. What else is going on here?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
What situations? What are "these situations"? You only mentioned one.
And who doesn't pursue their own agenda? What's yours here? This is obviously something that pushes your buttons, but ionthe face of it what you linked to in the OP doesn't justify your anger heere. What is this thread actually about?
It is about exactly what it says it is about.
And I'm not particularly angry, I just have experienced this as a real phenomena. It irritates me when people try to pretend it isn't.
quote:
Did he send you a PM? Because what he wrote here doesn't say anything like that at all. What else is going on here?
Nope
I might have expressed myself better, I can agree to that.
I believe we have a culture of volunteerism which elevates the needs of volunteers above the actual thing that they're doing. So on occasion (as we have recently seen) unskilled and untrained volunteers attempt to bully the police (and other professionals) in disaster and emergency situations, and sometimes they can actually make the situation considerably worse.
And I believe the Christian faith frequently supports this madness. That is my agenda, because that is my experience.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
You can't effectively generalize about all "professionals" and all "volunteers." They aren't homogeneous groups. SOME professionals need compassion, some volunteers need a clue (or to stay home). You've got to take it case by case. And that's where it gets messy.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
It's not just emergency work - we've got services that the Government expects to be run by volunteers...
LIke for example Mountain Rescue...
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger
I believe we have a culture of volunteerism which elevates the needs of volunteers above the actual thing that they're doing.
Sometimes the needs of the professional helpers are also elevated above the actual thing that they're doing.
You can't divide people into two groups--one selfish and one selfless. We are all capable of selfishness, and most of us are capable of selflessness.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Sometimes the needs of the professional helpers are also elevated above the actual thing that they're doing.
You can't divide people into two groups--one selfish and one selfless. We are all capable of selfishness, and most of us are capable of selflessness.
Moo
I agree with this - but with the caveat that the experts are supposed to know what they are doing. You can take experts to task when they under-perform.
Unskilled volunteers (and I agree the emphasis is on their low skill level rather than whether they're paid) are by definition unskilled. And there is no come-back when they cock things up.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
There is an issue of competence here and the moral and practical dilemmas it produces are not trivial. There are cases where the prompt action of an unqualified bystander has saved a life. There are other cases where the reverse is true.
So far as police investigations are concerned, prompt voluntary unqualified action can muck up the scene of crime and reduce the prospects of convicting offenders via DNA evidence for example.
But on the other hand, there are emergencies which are so urgent that the imperative to act, qualified or not, and do the best you can, seems inescapable.
Recognising a spectrum of circumstances here, and the risks involved, does not devalue good intentions. Nor does it suggest that everything must of necessity be left to professionals. But it does open the mind to the issue of competence boundaries. Knowing when you're not, or may not be, the right person to help; knowing that and recognising that in the circumstances you've got in front of you you may be the only one capable of providing any sort of timely help. When do you take the chance?
The message from our risk-averse culture is 'better to leave it to the experts. If things go wrong, they're the ones to face the risk of being sued, or prosecuted for negligence.' As things stand, 'I would have liked to help but I really didn't think I was qualified to do that' sounds like a pretty safe line for the bystander.
When it's close friends or family at risk, the situation is even more acute. The emotional pressure to 'do something' even at risk to one's own life, can be overwhelming.
I think there are two basic needs here.
a) Educational. Give folks exposure to challenging scenarios and help them to understand the complexities - and the damage they may cause by rushing in.
b) Understanding. Stop applying 20/20 hindsight to complex and high-risk situations, expecting people (whether qualified or not) to behave perfectly under pressure.
Blame culture and risk-averse culture are opposite sides of the same coin. Folks trying to be responsible citizens need to get that on board in our day and age. The wisest path may not be that easy to find.
In a modern day setting of the Samaritan tale, the Priest, or the Levite, or the Samaritan would have had the option of making an emergency call on their mobile phones. So I guess Jesus would have to have made the same point via a different story.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
It's a good point. Indeed, sometimes volunteers really do more harm than good, and yet refuse to recognize this fact themselves. Part of my job (actually these days a lot of it) centers on planning for disasters, and while my own work focuses on only one aspect (where volunteers usually are not an issue) I often attend/speak at conferences along with folks involved in all areas of emergency planning. One issue that comes up over and over again is the need to PLAN for these volunteers, and to have a system in place that allows them to fulfill their desire to help, while keeping them out of harms way, and out of the way of professional responders. A good emergency planner can predict the outflow of support (which is a GOOD thing) and plan on the best way to put it to good use.
...It's hard to balance the two, I think, but that should be our goal! the instinct to help is good, and SHOULD be encouraged. but we should be wise about it. if an expert tells me that something I am doing is counter productive, then I am no longer acting in ignorance, am I?
This.
I pretty much assume that pretty much everything we do is for a mix of motives, good and bad. But that being said, in general, our instinct to help in a time of crisis is a good one that should be encouraged, rather than squelched-- which is what this sort of cynical posturing tends to do. I think most volunteers take direction very well. If you have, as suggested, planned for volunteers and have a vehicle to communicate clearly what sort of help is needed and how and where and when (and conversely, what is not helpful and impedes the professionals) I think most people take that very well.
The Katrina disaster here in the US is a good counter-example of how sitting around waiting for the professionals led to increased suffering and death. Those who realized help was not coming, jumped in and did something were the real heroes that prevented the tragedy from being worse than it was.
Anyuta's advise is spot-on-- encourage the instinct, and channel it appropriately.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
I think this aspect from Anyuta is really important:
quote:
One issue that comes up over and over again is the need to PLAN for these volunteers, and to have a system in place that allows them to fulfill their desire to help, while keeping them out of harms way, and out of the way of professional responders.
This is not an instinct which should or needs to be encouraged. The idea that Aid (and other emergency) Professionals need to waste time creating schemes to keep people who are only interested in 'fulfilling their desires' out of the way is just ridiculous. But real.
[ 05. October 2012, 17:39: Message edited by: the long ranger ]
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
I think this aspect from Anyuta is really important:
quote:
One issue that comes up over and over again is the need to PLAN for these volunteers, and to have a system in place that allows them to fulfill their desire to help, while keeping them out of harms way, and out of the way of professional responders.
This is not an instinct which should or needs to be encouraged. The idea that Aid (and other emergency) Professionals need to waste time creating schemes to keep people who are only interested in 'fulfilling their desires' out of the way is just ridiculous. But real.
But your assumption is that volunteer labor is ALWAYS inevitably unhelpful, whereas Anyuta's testimony (which you edited out) would seem to be that, properly channelled, it can be quite helpful. Again, I think Katrina provides a counter-example of the opposite extreme where volunteers were far more helpful than the professionals. While I think Katrina is to a degree a special case, it should be a useful caution against overreacting to a real problem.
Again, I think most volunteers have a mix of motives, but enough good, sincere motives that they will respond appropriately if given direction. And, I believe that help can quite often be useful, again, if channelled properly. If there's really nothing volunteers can do, say so, and I think most will stay out of the way. But I think your cynicism and elite professionalism is throwing away an important resource and will lead to a destructive apathy.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
But your assumption is that volunteer labor is ALWAYS inevitably unhelpful, whereas Anyuta's testimony (which you edited out) would seem to be that, properly channelled,
Unskilled labour is always unhelpful in a disaster scenario. Trained and skilled volunteers who work where and when the professionals say can be helpful. I think that is what Anyuta is saying and I agree.
quote:
it can be quite helpful. Again, I think Katrina provides a counter-example of the opposite extreme where volunteers were far more helpful than the professionals. While I think Katrina is to a degree a special case, it should be a useful caution against overreacting to a real problem.
I don't know enough about that particular situation, but it sounds like a total failure by the authorities charged with dealing with it. Nobody is suggesting that the professionals get it right all the time. But they get it right a lot more times than people who just turn up with good intentions.
quote:
Again, I think most volunteers have a mix of motives, but enough good, sincere motives that they will respond appropriately if given direction.
Sadly, that is not my experience. Most are only interested in what they feel is the right thing to be done and cannot be told that they're wrong even by someone who is clearly more proficient in the skill.
quote:
And, I believe that help can quite often be useful, again, if channelled properly.
Well I don't. You can't channel someone who refuses to be channeled and believes they have a God-given right to do the wrong thing and fuck everything up. It is very very rare that a random unskilled volunteer can be of use in a disaster scenario. So rare as to be of no importance. There is an easy solution: get a skill, get some training, and most of all listen to what the professionals tell you is needed.
quote:
If there's really nothing volunteers can do, say so, and I think most will stay out of the way. But I think your cynicism and elite professionalism is throwing away an important resource and will lead to a destructive apathy.
Yeah, they all say that too. Because their inherrant 'need to be useful' in a bad situation saps all their logical processing faculties. I've seen it happen far too many times.
[ 05. October 2012, 18:15: Message edited by: the long ranger ]
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
But your assumption is that volunteer labor is ALWAYS inevitably unhelpful, whereas Anyuta's testimony (which you edited out) would seem to be that, properly channelled,
Unskilled labour is always unhelpful in a disaster scenario. Trained and skilled volunteers who work where and when the professionals say can be helpful. I think that is what Anyuta is saying and I agree.
Anyuta will, of course, speak for herself to clarify. But I would read her comments below to suggest that, while she shares some of your concerns, her overall view of volunteers is much more positive than what you are saying:
quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
Part of my job (actually these days a lot of it) centers on planning for disasters, and while my own work focuses on only one aspect (where volunteers usually are not an issue) I often attend/speak at conferences along with folks involved in all areas of emergency planning... A good emergency planner can predict the outflow of support (which is a GOOD thing) and plan on the best way to put it to good use.
...The impulse to help I think is most often genuine, coming from the heart, from our inborn ability to empathize with the suffering of others
... yes, of course, it's horrible to INTENTIONALLY do something to harm someone else. but honestly, how often do people really do that? most of our harm to others is committed in, at worst, lack of even thinking about how our actions may impact others, and often, as in this example, when trying to do something good (overall).
...It's hard to balance the two, I think, but that should be our goal! the instinct to help is good, and SHOULD be encouraged. but we should be wise about it. if an expert tells me that something I am doing is counter productive, then I am no longer acting in ignorance, am I?
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884
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Posted
From my comfy chair, I would have thought that a novice volunteer will be less dangerous to the efforts of the professionals if acknowledged and given a task to do (like going and searching where the professionals have already been "just in case we missed something" or fetching coffees, putting up posters or something else less specialised) than if they are told just to stay away or butt out. Someone who cares but sees themselves being edged out of the picture will feel helpless and then try to do something off their own bat which could jeopardise the professional efforts.
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"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"
Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004
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angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884
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Posted
... I would also like to add that The Long Ranger's spurious attempt to lay the blame for volunteers messing things up, at the door of Christianity is really quite silly. All people have an innate desire to help those in need, and it has nothing to do with Christian ethics per se.
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"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"
Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
ok, wow, didn't realize something I posted started something :-).
I would say that, in my experience and in the apparent experience of those I have talked with who are more actively involved in the field, that unskilled volunteers CAN be a problem, but do not have to be, that most people have some skills that can be useful, in fact that there are some jobs which are better done by volunteers than expending valuable trained staff to accomplish. But one has to be smart about it.
I have not met many who would say that the volunteers are always a problem (other than when not properly directed). The concern is to make sure that the overall available resources (volunteer and skilled/trained) are used for maximum effect.
For example, during the Gulf oil spill (in which I was involved), a lot of volunteers came out to help collect tar balls and other trash on beaches, and to help clean and care for oiled birds. These volunteers were overall extremely helpful, and meant that trained people could be used in other ways. On the other hand, when it came to laying out boom, there was a lot that was done wrong, both by untrained volunteers AND those who should know better, resulting in the boom sometimes doing more damage than good.
The people I most recently spoke with on this issue were dealing with planning for animal issues during a disaster. opening shelters for pets, collecting lost/stranded animals, and dealing with carcasses (pets, but mostly livestock). With the exception of the last item, all the folks speaking about volunteers were very positive on the instinct people have to help, and the issue was more about how BEST to have them help, rather than how to "keep them out of the way" of the pros (although, the two often go hand in hand).
For that matter, one of the topics of discussion was creating training programs so that these volunteers are not just "off the street" but are prepared ahead of time to respond as well as, sometimes better than, a professional.
And yes, there are also horror stories of volunteers who just get in the way, and insist that they know best (the boom situation described above was one such example). they are generally people who are suspicious of government to begin with, are convinced that the "pros" don't know their ass from a hole in the ground, and mistake caution for lack of action/laziness/unwillingness to help. It happens. but I think it's wrong to assume that this is true of all, or even the vast majority of volunteers, or that volunteers motives are always suspect.
I have met volunteers and have volunteered myself at various times in various ways. I think the desire to help is genuine, and quite often mostly selfless. I think that many of these people would like to be more regular volunteers (in the way of many volunteer fire fighters, red cross workers etc.) but just don't have the time for such a commitment. during a major disaster, they feel they can do something helpful anyway, even if it's just picking up tarballs from the beach, or giving water to pets in an emergency shelter.
I do wish, however, that people were as willing to respond to the smaller, less publicized disasters, where people suffer just as much and need just as much help, but because there are few of them, it doesn't make the headlines.
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Volunteers have been used to effectively man phones to filter out calls - with a form to fill in and an instruction if certain things are said to pass it on up. Or to man rescue stations feeding people with hot drinks and wrapping them in blankets. There are ways to use unskilled volunteers.
But professionals too need to be aware of their limits of competence. A common church scenario is someone coming for pastoral care who wants more than a meeting or two. Usually that person needs referring to professional counsellors but not all ministers are prepared to accept that the needs are beyond their limit of competence. The same sort of problems arise in education, where a child and family present with problems that need family counselling or additional help.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by angelfish:
... I would also like to add that The Long Ranger's spurious attempt to lay the blame for volunteers messing things up, at the door of Christianity is really quite silly. All people have an innate desire to help those in need, and it has nothing to do with Christian ethics per se.
No kidding. It's not as if all the people who turn out to look for lost children are Christians.
the long ranger, what exactly is your experience in this area? You've made a lot of assertions without telling us what has led you to these conclusions.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
What anyuta said.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
One problem that arises occasionally with professional helping organizations is illustrated by the saying, "If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."
An organization may think that a certain situation needs X, which they can provide. However, the situation may require Y or Z, and volunteers with specific knowledge in those areas are more valuable than the professionals.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
I have not worked on a professionally directed emergency response, but it sounds like there are several motives driving professionals at the head of an operation- those who know that more hands will be an asset in some ways and will assign a good communicator to get the best out of the volunteers, those who also know that and don't want to bother and would rather just have professionals on the scene whatever, and those who are in the middle of a very time driven situation where there is no opportunity to get untrained people up to speed without sacrificing precious time and manpower. I sympathize with the latter, but so many situations are not that sort.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Indeed, each situation is so different, it's impossible to generalize. Which is why having some sort of pre-existing infrastructure, as Anyuta suggests, would be helpful-- e.g. a website where volunteers could go with reliable information such as "people are needed to answer phones/ give blood/ serve up coffee/ hold babies while we talk to their traumatized parents" or "no volunteer help is needed-- please stay off the roads and direct donations to xyz..."
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
This was published last Thursday (but I've come across it today. An article from Third Sector about the right sort of volunteers. It includes this
quote:
Any competent volunteer manager will tell you that when it comes to volunteer recruitment what we need is not more volunteers but more of the right volunteers. We need people with the competencies to do the work that needs doing in pursuit of our organisation’s mission and vision, not just anyone who puts up their hand to help
Whole article for relevance. Hope this helps.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger
And I'm telling you the professionals say that this is a real problem.
Are these the same kind of "professionals" who are so "well trained" that they refuse to save a drowning man, for fear of transgressing their health and safety regs?
They could be like the professional who did throw away the rule book, saved a drowning man and was promptly fired along with fellow lifeguards who defended him. Lifeguard Fired For Saving Drowning Man. The non professional public saved their jobs with a massive protest.
I have to add, if it was my child or loved one who was missing I'd want volunteer searchers out there along with the professionals. Find places for them to search. Volunteer searchers have found many missing children, unfortunately most were dead, but the parents at least had an answer. AFAIC part of being a professional involves being able to coordinate non professional volunteers, not just telling them to "butt out". Being a non professional volunteer means following the professionals as the assistance. no matter what job is what matters.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
Competence is worthy of respect wherever it is encountered. Unfortunately, our society suffers from the disease of bureaucracy. In which the paperwork becomes more important than the reality, and following the procedures becomes more important than achieving what the job is supposed to be about.
Not everyone with a uniform or a job title is necessarily competent; not everyone without is necessarily incompetent.
Disasters come in different sizes. In dealing with a chemical spill, it may be vital that those with no idea of the properties of the chemical stay clear and don't interfere. But when it comes to searching woodland, the local man may be far more competent than the policeman drafted in from the next town.
Generalisations are imperfect, but trying to focus on the real situation rather than the officially-designated situation is always worthwhile. When they're the same, it doesn't matter.
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Squirrel
Shipmate
# 3040
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Posted
I have met with quite a few of the many volunteers who came running to New York City after 9/11 to help in the rescue efforts. I am not talking about the firefighters, construction workers, Red Cross people and other trained personnel who offered their time, but untrained folks who simply wanted to come. My impression, and this is echoed by others I've met who have dealt with the volunteers, is that these volunteers, while well-intentioned, were often rather strange characters. None that I met had a regular job; some were collecting disability payments; others were drifters. My hunch is that they wanted to be part of something important, something that was on television every day. And they went around bragging about their efforts, making it sound like they were heros. One man started a web site.
Many of the police, fire and other trained personnel who were at the WTC site found such people to be more of a nuisance than a help.
As somebody who works in the human services field, I think there is definitely a place for those who wish to volunteer their services to help others. But such people need to be screened, trained and supervised.
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"The moral is to the physical as three is to one."
- Napoleon
"Five to one."
- George S. Patton
Posts: 1014 | From: Gotham City - Brain of the Great Satan | Registered: Jul 2002
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birdie
fowl
# 2173
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Posted
I just typed a ridiculously long response to this but it was a case of tl;dr even for me and I wrote it...
So. As someone with - albeit very peripheral - knowledge of the search for April Jones, both from the point of view of the volunteers who turned up to the leisure centre, and from people on the coastguard and lifeboat crews...
I don't think the link in the OP talks about 'tension' between the police and volunteers. The volunteers who continued to search after the police had stopped co-ordinating the search were clear that they were using local knowlege to cover areas not being covered by police, and that they were taking care not to interfere with the search.
Police have consistently said that they have been grateful for the help of volunteers and that their local knowlege has been invaluable. I have not heard anyone among the volunteers complaining that the police have not valued their efforts.
People I have spoken to from the lifeboat and coastguard crews have not felt that the volunteer searchers in any way interfered with their search. Some of the journalists on the other hand.....
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"Gentlemen, I wash my hands of this weirdness."
Captain Jack Sparrow
Posts: 1290 | From: the edge | Registered: Jan 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
I think that there are two types of people who volunteer.
One type are those who believe they can make a contribution, either because they have specific knowledge or skills, or because a large number of people are needed to do grunt work. The basic motive is a genuine desire to serve others.
The second type thinks that What The Problem Needs Is Me. This type is worse than useless. The basic motive is raw egotism.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
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Posted
My experience is this regard is unique to me, and should be read as such.
Several years ago, I took a course on serving as part of an emergency response team, and received a certificate; the course was held at a large hospital, and included clergy, nurses, police, and social workers. I then took a second course, and received a certificate as an advanced response team member - from the organiztion which provided the course. A number of the issues raised on this thread were discussed during both courses.
Later, I went on a self-designed mission trip to a community in Mississippi, to assist survivors of Huricane Katrina, still living in FEMA trailers several years after the disaster. Six of us travelled in a van, two other car loads of volunteers, all from our church, also went at the same time. Not to be unkind, but it struck me as an example of how not to be helpful.
The group, some of whom had made the trip the year before, warned us enroute that when we reached the Canada/US border, to tell the border guards that we were planning to attend a church conference, as the year before, several of them in one of the cars told the border guards that they were going to help with diaster relief, and had been tuirned back, as only coordinated groups sponsored by a denomination or recognized group were permitted to cross the border to help with disaster relief. I was deeply uncomfortable with their fibbing to the border guards.
When we reached the community, we went to a large church that welcomed volunteers. Two of our group were assigned to rebuild a wheelchair ramp that had been destroyed; it led into a house occupied by a handicapped older woman.
As they worked, a number of people approached them and informed them that they were rebuilding what amounted to a death trap; the woman would not be able to escape on her own if another storm struck that home, which was built on a flood plain.
The rest of us were put to work drywalling a house being built for an extended family, some of whom were quite challenged as far as indepenant living; to the best of my knowledge, now several years later, not one of them ever lived in that house.
One of the members of our team brought a set of cameras and spent the week photgraphing the efforts for a video, shown to our congregation on our return. I am certain that most of those on the trip saw their efforts as helpful, even heroic. Sadly, I did not.
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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
on the flip side, let me suggest that the federal handling of Katrina is widely considered by Americans to be one of the largest and most tragic disasters in recent history. It was an epic fail on all government levels-- federal, state and local (making it a bipartisan fail, fwiw). Help, particularly int'l was turned away even at a time when the crisis was unfolding and the government was demonstrating complete and total incompetence in dealing with the situation. So, while I share your ethical and practical concerns re lying your way in, in this very particular case, there may have been good reasons why. I would chalk up the problems your church encountered as indicative of the complete inadequacy of the government response before, during, and after the disaster, not to any arrogant or ignorant bumbling on their part. Had government been competent, done their job, first of all the disaster would have not been so extreme (people would have been evacuated properly) but they also would have been prepared to utilize the 1000s of volunteers in effective and meaningful ways. Believe me, help was and still is desperately needed. There simply has lacked the proper coordination to make proper use of those volunteers. I applaud your church for making the attempt.
I do think Katrina is a particular case in point-- a worst-case example of what to avoid, but also so extreme in the level of government incompetence (even betrayal) that it doesn't apply to many/most disasters.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Squirrel:
I think there is definitely a place for those who wish to volunteer their services to help others. But such people need to be screened, trained and supervised.
We're talking disasters and emergencies here. If it's my house that falls down in an earthquake and I'm trapped in the rubble, or if it's my child who hasn't returned from a walk in the woods yesterday, I hope my neighbours will turn out to help as soon as they find out.
And if they meet some officious idiot filling out a Situation Assessment Protocol who tells them that they haven't got the piece of paper that means they've successfully completed a screening interview, or haven't got the piece of paper that says they've sat through a training course, or can they wait a couple of hours until the person with the piece of paper that says they're qualified to supervise volunteers gets here, then I hope they'll tell that person to feck off back to the city with their bureaucratic nonsense, and get started with pitching in to help.
And I hope I'd do the same for them.
Get real.
If what you meant to say was that in situations where emergencies occur relatively often then there's value in having trained volunteers, like lifeboatmen or Mountain Rescue teams, then of course I'll agree. Real on-the-spot competence is invaluable.
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Yes. To return to the Katrina example, when it became clear that the government was going to do nothing whatsoever to rescue the thousands of desperate individuals standing on the rooftops for days while the waters rose, it was individuals who did exactly that-- often boaters from other gulf states-- who stepped in and saved many, many lives. Again, it was a horrific disaster-- and more of a man-made one than natural--but would have been far, far worse w/o the volunteers who ignored the official channels (that had completely broken down on all levels) and just did something.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
What can make a tremendous amount of difference in these situations is how open people are to using the skills they have in a way that they might not initially have thought of. An example: knitters are by-and-large, a wonderful group of committed people who want to make a difference. We love to knit for charitable causes. Knitting can work as a useful skill for charity, but actually useful projects tend to fit into one of three categories:
1 - using the skills to make something quirky or different - knitting as an art form. An example of this is the knitted hats on Innocent smoothies to raise funds for Age UK, or selling knitted dogs for Battersea.
2 - using the social aspect of knitting clubs as you would with other social clubs - holding fundraising raffles, events etc.
3 - Making things for people where the fact of someone's time and effort will mean something. I was initially a little dubious when invited to knit hats and gloves etc for a homeless shelter, because I wasn't sure that handknitted items would be the best choice (they can be horrible if you're unable to keep them dry - fleece is better if you're stuck outside a lot). But apparently the guests at the shelter like the human connection of handknits so fair enough.
However, for every good charity knitting thing I see about five projects that seem rather ill-advised. Every time there is any kind of natural disaster, someone sends a message out that they are going to start knitting/collecting squares to make blankets for displaced people at the scene. They always miss the obvious facts that:
- by the time you've knitted the blankets, sewn them together and shipped them halfway across the world, the disaster victims have either died from exposure or found/been given another way to keep warm.
- if all the ports are clogged up with bulky unwanted knitwear it's going to be harder for the stuff that is needed to get through.
- in the aftermath of a disaster when the economy is struggling, producing blankets and clothing is exactly the kind of cottage industry that can help local people get back on track.
- yarn is cheap. International shipping is expensive. Making an online donation of the amount you would have spent on shipping to an organisation that's already there is likely to be more effective at helping people.
All of these points seem like they should be obvious to anyone who's given this a moment's thought and yet... every.single.time.there.is.a.disaster this happens. Is the need to Do Something so stupid-making?
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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birdie
fowl
# 2173
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I think that there are two types of people who volunteer.
<snip>
The second type thinks that What The Problem Needs Is Me. This type is worse than useless. The basic motive is raw egotism.
That type is worse than useless even when highly trained and working in a professional capacity, not just when volunteering, in my experience.
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"Gentlemen, I wash my hands of this weirdness."
Captain Jack Sparrow
Posts: 1290 | From: the edge | Registered: Jan 2002
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