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Source: (consider it) Thread: Turkish human rights flotilla to Syria then?
Saul the Apostle
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The internicine killing in Syria goes on.

The Syrians are embarked on a bloody civil war.

Human rights abuses are legion.

Where is the human rights flotilla from Turkey to show solidarity with Syrians then?

The Fox News article makes some reading.....

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/10/10/as-syria-bleeds-human-rights-activists-can-only-target-israel/

Saul the Apostle

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Ricardus
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Well I would say there are two obvious differences:

1. Human rights flotillas to Israel are at least partly in order to shame Western governments who back Israel - with quite a lot of money, in the case of America. However no western government except Russia is backing Syria and most are putting some degree of sanction against Assad.

2. Assad doesn't care about protesters so a protest won't cause the Assad regime to think again. Conversely Israel is a democracy, so protests might have an effect.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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the long ranger
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Last time I looked, Syria was not a prison with all the borders blocked.

It is a nightmare, it is true, but it'll take a long cold day in hell before I take moral lessons from Fox News.

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Doc Tor
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Saul, are you genuinely unable to tell the difference between a functioning democracy which is nevertheless committing some very serious human rights violations, and a totalitarian state fallen into civil war?

If that's the case, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

(and this is the charitable response. I don't have time to start a Hell call at the moment.)

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Crœsos
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quote:
Number of Syrian refugees in Turkish camps exceeds 100,000

ISTANBUL (Reuters) - The number of Syrian refugees housed in camps in southern Turkey has exceeded 100,000, the Turkish disaster management agency (AFAD) said on Monday, a level beyond which Ankara had previously said it would struggle to accommodate more.

AFAD said in a statement there were now 100,363 Syrians at more than a dozen camps in Turkish provinces along the border.

(Writing by Daren Butler; Editing by Louise Ireland)

You see, someone who's not an asshole using human tragedy to score cheap political points might realize that Turkey doesn't need to send a flotilla to Syria because they touch each other. Such a non-asshole would probably also realize that giving aid to those who have fled the killing is an effective way to mitigate human suffering, and probably more practical than trying to invade Syria to distribute aid.

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balaam

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Turkey doesn't need to send a flotilla to Syria because they touch each other.

That's exactly what I thought when I read the OP. It's quite a long border too.
Map.

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the long ranger
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I forced myself to read that drivel.

Particularly the last paragraph:

quote:
The world’s far-flung Jewish communities, the Mideast’s exposed Christian minorities, and the Syrian people are all victims a false flag operation that deflects international attention from the crimes that should be its true focus. For this moment at least, we are all—Jews, Christians, and innocent Syrian Muslims—victims of history's oldest hatred: anti-Semitism.
Yeah, of course. There is no deflection in the other direction. At all.

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Saul the Apostle
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Saul, are you genuinely unable to tell the difference between a functioning democracy which is nevertheless committing some very serious human rights violations, and a totalitarian state fallen into civil war?

If that's the case, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

(and this is the charitable response. I don't have time to start a Hell call at the moment.)

I'm not sure that the author of the article would agree; why don't you summon him to ''hell''. I suppose any slightly pro Israeli stance is suspect in your doctorly veritable eyes then?

I think the author is Jewish, but his points are valid whether he is Jewish or not Jewish.

Saul

[ 17. October 2012, 16:01: Message edited by: Saul the Apostle ]

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mousethief

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Oh look Saul is flogging the Israel/Palestine situation again. This time completely out of the blue.

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Jonah the Whale

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quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:

I think the author is Jewish, but his points are valid whether he is Jewish or not Jewish.

Saul

Given that the author is a Rabbi Abraham Cooper I think you may be right that he is Jewish. I am more pro-Israel than most on the Ship, I think, but even I had to wash my eyes out with soap and water after reading that article.
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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Saul, are you genuinely unable to tell the difference between a functioning democracy which is nevertheless committing some very serious human rights violations, and a totalitarian state fallen into civil war?

If that's the case, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

(and this is the charitable response. I don't have time to start a Hell call at the moment.)

I'm not sure that the author of the article would agree; why don't you summon him to ''hell''. I suppose any slightly pro Israeli stance is suspect in your doctorly veritable eyes then?

I think the author is Jewish, but his points are valid whether he is Jewish or not Jewish.

Saul

Okay. Just a couple of points here.

You, Saul, started the OP. Any opinion on this message board is therefore yours. You don't get to deflect criticism because of a link.

Secondly, I don't care whether the author is Jewish. I have a Jew Card I can play too, and that doesn't stop me from occasionally making fuckwitted comments.

Why don't you respond to mine and others' comments? Is it because yet again you have no idea where half these places are and what's going on there?

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Hawk

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Oh look, another don't-criticise Israel-because-another-random-country-is-worse argument. How cute. I didn't know any were still around. And look, its puffing itself up and waving its arms furiously to try and distract everyone from the terrible, sustained, and unapologetic human rights abuses perpetuated by Israel every single day with the blank cheque support of the US and others.

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Saul the Apostle
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It's interesting how the old vitriolic anti semitism can out it's spleen isn't it?

The article was brought to my attention by a Christian incidentally.

The article ends with the comment:

quote:
The world’s far-flung Jewish communities, the Mideast’s exposed Christian minorities, and the Syrian people are all victims a false flag operation that deflects international attention from the crimes that should be its true focus. For this moment at least, we are all—Jews, Christians, and innocent Syrian Muslims—victims of history's oldest hatred: anti-Semitism.


Syria is pulling itself apart. Crimes are taking place which beggar belief.

The random shelling of civilian areas by the Assad regime. But I see no empty and pointless propaganda ''flotillas''. Why not? Why wouldn't Turkey sanction a land flotilla to make it's point? After all the slaughter is massive and sustained. The injustices are clear and the crime of Arab against Arab sharp and distinct.

I just thought the article my friend sent to me worthy of some discussion and all it stirs up in some is an empty vitriolic ''bah sucks'' type of response, which remind me of playground retorts.

Saul the Apostle

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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
I just thought the article my friend sent to me worthy of some discussion

But not by you, apparently.

What is your opinion, or are you waiting for tonight's Fox News to tell you what it is?

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Martin60
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What anti-Semitism?

Saul the Apostle, are you a civilized man ?

"In any war between the civilized man and the savage, support the civilized man. Support Israel Defeat Jihad."

We ALL have to lead by example in laying our lives down. There is no other way.

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Love wins

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Jay-Emm
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quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
It's interesting how the old vitriolic anti semitism can out it's spleen isn't it?

The article was brought to my attention by a Christian incidentally.

The article ends with the comment:

quote:
The world’s far-flung Jewish communities, the Mideast’s exposed Christian minorities, and the Syrian people are all victims a false flag operation that deflects international attention from the crimes that should be its true focus. For this moment at least, we are all—Jews, Christians, and innocent Syrian Muslims—victims of history's oldest hatred: anti-Semitism.


Syria is pulling itself apart. Crimes are taking place which beggar belief.

The random shelling of civilian areas by the Assad regime. But I see no empty and pointless propaganda ''flotillas''. Why not? Why wouldn't Turkey sanction a land flotilla to make it's point? After all the slaughter is massive and sustained. The injustices are clear and the crime of Arab against Arab sharp and distinct.

I just thought the article my friend sent to me worthy of some discussion and all it stirs up in some is an empty vitriolic ''bah sucks'' type of response, which remind me of playground retorts.

Saul the Apostle

Wait which is which in your analogy.
Because Turkey is actively stopping arms getting to Assad. Which is much more dramatic aid than not stopping a flotilla.
And indeed Shelling.
And they don't seem to be doing much to stop Saudi Arabia shipping guns, (and I'm sure I remember American missiles and English espionage assistance being credited with assisting some rebel action).

So maybe I've got the analogy backwards and you feel the Palestinians should have got more than a 'flotilla' of merchant vessels.

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the long ranger
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quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
Syria is pulling itself apart. Crimes are taking place which beggar belief.

Is anyone arguing otherwise? Because I don't see them.

quote:
The random shelling of civilian areas by the Assad regime. But I see no empty and pointless propaganda ''flotillas''. Why not? Why wouldn't Turkey sanction a land flotilla to make it's point? After all the slaughter is massive and sustained. The injustices are clear and the crime of Arab against Arab sharp and distinct.
Erm, let's see. Oh yes, because they're lobbing bombs at each other.

quote:
I just thought the article my friend sent to me worthy of some discussion and all it stirs up in some is an empty vitriolic ''bah sucks'' type of response, which remind me of playground retorts.

Did you want a discussion or just people to agree with you? Turkey is doing as much - and quite possibly considerably more - than could be expected of them in the circumstances.

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"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

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mousethief

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Disagreeing with Saul perforce = anti-Semitism.

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Saul the Apostle
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Disagreeing with Saul perforce = anti-Semitism.

Putting an alternative point of view Mousethief cannot agree with = jousting at your shibboleth
[Roll Eyes]

Saul

--------------------
"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."

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Hawk

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quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
It's interesting how the old vitriolic anti semitism can out it's spleen isn't it?

Oh dear, you’re not even pretending to engage with the issues now are you? The veil’s come off, and we can see that you genuinely believe that everyone who disagrees with Israel’s government policies is a raging anti-semite. Not that anyone is shocked at this revelation though.

quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
The article was brought to my attention by a Christian incidentally.

Amazing! It’s almost like you aren’t aware that Israel is fervently supported by a certain wing of Christianity. But how could you remain so ignorant of this fact despite repeated threads on Israel? That’s the mystery.

quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
Syria is pulling itself apart. Crimes are taking place which beggar belief.

Agreed. Nothing to do with Israel though. Why you insist on dragging Israel and anti-semitism into this is beyond me. Except that it’s your personal hobby-horse.

quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
I see no empty and pointless propaganda ''flotillas''. Why not?

Is this a genuine question or just a crude dig at the Turkish activists for supporting the Palestinians? Perhaps you’d like to insult the Kony 2012 people as well since they’re ignoring Syria also. Focusing all their attention on the human rights abuses of one country, while completely ignoring this tragedy over here!!! How very dare they!

Of course you won’t because that’s nothing to do with Israel, so it’s completely fine.

quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
Why wouldn't Turkey sanction a land flotilla to make it's point? …The injustices are clear and the crime …sharp and distinct.

I think you’ve just answered your own question. Woops.

quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
I just thought the article my friend sent to me worthy of some discussion and all it stirs up in some is an empty vitriolic ''bah sucks'' type of response, which remind me of playground retorts.

That’s because you’re wrong. It’s a tired argument, with no worthiness of discussion, and bringing no news to the table. It’s flawed in its logic, reason and comparisons. If someone writes an article claiming that apples are green but oranges are orange, and that’s prejudiced against apples, it would engender the same response.

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See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
I just thought the article my friend sent to me worthy of some discussion and all it stirs up in some is an empty vitriolic ''bah sucks'' type of response, which remind me of playground retorts.

Well several people have provided reasons why a.) such a flotilla would be futile and b.) Turkey is already providing a heck of a lot of aid to Syrian refugees, but you've ignored them all.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
I just thought the article my friend sent to me worthy of some discussion and all it stirs up in some is an empty vitriolic ''bah sucks'' type of response, which remind me of playground retorts.

My computer has a 'Spam filter'. I recommend you get one, unless you intend to employ some discernment.

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Saul the Apostle
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If you read the article, it is positing the idea of a fictional (for that is what it would be) aid or propaganda flotilla / convoy to Syria. In it's direst hour of need.

What is Abraham Cooper suggesting here?

quote:
Imagine the morale booster they would get from an international flotilla! Ships and boats, an armada of morality, led by a former member of the Canadian Parliament, with no one less than the iconic Apartheid-buster, Nobel Prize winner, Archbishop Desmond Tutu atop its advisory board. Imagine the international impact of a flotilla of ships carrying humanitarian aid and the critical message to Syrians: YOU ARE NOT FORGOTTEN!
Forget it.
For these human rights "activists," Syrians are as good as forgotten. There is no flotilla heading to either of the Mediterranean Syrian ports of Latakia or Tarsus. Instead, it is heading to help the “beleaguered” people of a few miles south in— Gaza.


He is using the well known device of stretching a point, hyperbole, etc etc. And why so?

Well, simply, to put a counter argument to the sad episode of, was it back in 2010? When an ''aid convoy'' went to Gaza's aid.

Sadly, the thugs on board MV Marmaris (they weren't all thugs of course but there were some clearly) didn't count on picking on the IDF.

I am sure any right thinking person would regret the loss of life (I certainly do as a Christian) but if you try and do what they did surely one is asking for trouble?

These peaceful Gazan's have fired hundreds of rockets into Israel in 2012 alone, now the good Rabbi is just ''turning the tables'' and the status quo can't abide that it seems. But why not? Well, simply put, Israel can do no right, it is the big imperialist and militarist state bogey man in their eyes. Israel, according to their twisted logic, is hell bent on dominating and conquering all the surrounding peoples, aided by the ''great satan'' (the USA) itself.

Re - read the article and see that Cooper is not so crass after all; he is asking you to use the propaganda devices that Israel has to put up with and see it cast upon the brutal regime of Assad - where are the siren voices of protest against this regime in the international community I wonder?

Saul

--------------------
"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
Re - read the article and see that Cooper is not so crass after all; he is asking you to use the propaganda devices that Israel has to put up with and see it cast upon the brutal regime of Assad - where are the siren voices of protest against this regime in the international community I wonder?

Here and here.

Contrast the amount of aid that America gives to Israel.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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the long ranger
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quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
He is using the well known device of stretching a point, hyperbole, etc etc. And why so?

Well, simply, to put a counter argument to the sad episode of, was it back in 2010? When an ''aid convoy'' went to Gaza's aid.

You think we don't know that?

quote:
Sadly, the thugs on board MV Marmaris (they weren't all thugs of course but there were some clearly) didn't count on picking on the IDF.

I am sure any right thinking person would regret the loss of life (I certainly do as a Christian) but if you try and do what they did surely one is asking for trouble?

If you think taking aid across a blockade to a besieged people is asking for trouble, then yes, they were asking for trouble.

quote:
These peaceful Gazan's have fired hundreds of rockets into Israel in 2012 alone, now the good Rabbi is just ''turning the tables'' and the status quo can't abide that it seems. But why not? Well, simply put, Israel can do no right, it is the big imperialist and militarist state bogey man in their eyes. Israel, according to their twisted logic, is hell bent on dominating and conquering all the surrounding peoples, aided by the ''great satan'' (the USA) itself.
Ha! Yes, he is just turning the tables - by saying the same thing that all apologists for Israel always say. The lobbed a few home-made bombs, that entitles us to use the military might of one of the best funded militaries on the world on them. And they're not allowed out! So it is like shooting fish in a barrel! We'll bomb them back to the stone age, close all the border, shoot unarmed people who come to deliver aid and block all the borders allowing only in the lowest possible amount of calorific nutrients to keep the inhabitants alive.. Yeah, fuck me that is moral.

quote:
Re - read the article and see that Cooper is not so crass after all; he is asking you to use the propaganda devices that Israel has to put up with and see it cast upon the brutal regime of Assad - where are the siren voices of protest against this regime in the international community I wonder?

Saul

Crass? What, less crass than quoting from an article that you were not even sure was written by a Jew?

I'll say it is crass.

--------------------
"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

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Saul the Apostle
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No, the article is to my POV sound and makes one think. He is using a well know literary device and hyperbole to make his point and it is a fair one.

Israel is the absolute bogey man for some people - get over it - it is NOT a militarist regime, like the Assad regime incidentally. It is a democracy.

I'm not hiding behind this article; I may not agree with all of it, but to be fair it is a good way of looking at the tragic Syrian tragic scenario - if you can't see convoys on the Med get over it, you probably never will. You won't hear Desmond Tutu jumping up and down either as Israel, it appears, is a bogeyman for him big time; he has his shibolleths too.

Have I been to Israel and Syria? Yes on a number of occasions. I am no ''expert'' but I have visited and have spoken widely to both Arabs and Jews in the region. I am a Christian and a keen supporter of Arab Christians and of course, I make no secret, a keen supporter of Israel (but not all that Israel does of course). Israel is a true democracy it allows opposing views to exist within the state).

Get over it; some people do support Israel and some people do like to read the odd article on Fox news opinion page - so what? Get real; get a life.

Saul

[ 18. October 2012, 15:04: Message edited by: Saul the Apostle ]

--------------------
"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
- where are the siren voices of protest against this regime in the international community I wonder?

Saul

Your telly stuck on Fox then, is it? I've noticed quite a bit if outrage.
News flash, one can dislike the policies of Israel without hating Jews. Even without disliking Jewish Israelis. One can recognise both sides of a conflict have people who behave badly but still feel one side is wrong. One can, oh wait, nuanced thinking =/= Fox News viewing. My bad.

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
if you can't see convoys on the Med get over it, you probably never will.

[brick wall] For perfectly legitimate reasons which have been repeatedly explained on the thread, and which you are still ignoring.
quote:
You won't hear Desmond Tutu jumping up and down either
“The blaming and finger-pointing at the highest levels of the international community are unconscionable distractions from the bloodshed, death and destruction unfolding each day in Syria.” Desmond Tutu

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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the long ranger
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quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
No, the article is to my POV sound and makes one think. He is using a well know literary device and hyperbole to make his point and it is a fair one.

And you honestly can't see the problem with that sentence? It is to your POV and is sound. It is not a fair point, it is not an objective point, it is not an unusual point. It is the same old shit peddled by the same old people for the same old reasons.

quote:
Israel is the absolute bogey man for some people - get over it - it is NOT a militarist regime, like the Assad regime incidentally. It is a democracy.
Well depends on your definition of 'democracy', 'militaristic' and 'regime', I suppose. A country where a large proportion of the residents of the land are unable to vote for the government is not a democracy. And a country where everyone under a certain age has to enroll in the military is clearly a militaristic one by most definitions.

What Assad is or is not like is irrelevant.

quote:
I'm not hiding behind this article; I may not agree with all of it, but to be fair it is a good way of looking at the tragic Syrian tragic scenario - if you can't see convoys on the Med get over it, you probably never will. You won't hear Desmond Tutu jumping up and down either as Israel, it appears, is a bogeyman for him big time; he has his shibolleths too.
Yeah. That has nothing to do with the fact that Israel claims to be the only democracy in the Middle East and that it claims the Israel Defense Force is a moral army. Or that there are a whole population of people who were displaced and disadvantaged by the creation of another state to which they had no vote or way to avoid.

Syria is a horrible mess. That has nothing to do with the question of how fucked-up Israel is.

quote:
Have I been to Israel and Syria? Yes on a number of occasions. I am no ''expert'' but I have visited and have spoken widely to both Arabs and Jews in the region. I am a Christian and a keen supporter of Arab Christians and of course, I make no secret, a keen supporter of Israel (but not all that Israel does of course). Israel is a true democracy it allows opposing views to exist within the state).
Really. So pray tell me how many Christians you've visited in Gaza or behind the wall in the West Bank. I'd venture exactly none at all.

quote:
Get over it; some people do support Israel and some people do like to read the odd article on Fox news opinion page - so what? Get real; get a life.

Get Real, Get a Life. Watch Fox.

That ought to be a slogan.

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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
Israel is a true democracy it allows opposing views to exist within the state.

Opposing views? Yes. Palestinians? No.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Doc Tor
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I fail to see any merit in your argument (is it yours? It's difficult to tell).

Should Hamas stop launching rockets at Israel? Yes. Should Israel stop starving the Palestinians, stealing their land and using their massive leverage with a superpower to get away with acts that are objectively human rights violations? Yes.

Turkey is now home to 100,000 Syrian refugees, and is clearly no friend of the Assad regime: quite the reverse, as they appear to be actively working against it. If you think that the effectiveness of their actions would be improved by sending some boats with aid to... where precisely? ... then I'm sure the Turkish embassy would love to hear from you.

This situation doesn't actually have that much to do with Israel. I hate to disappoint you, but it's a continuation of the other Arab uprisings that have occurred throughout North Africa and the Middle East. Using it, as you're doing, to ... actually, I don't know what you're doing, and I'm not sure you do either. But whatever it is, it's stupid and wrong.

(for Saul - xposted with half the Ship)

[ 18. October 2012, 15:24: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]

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Forward the New Republic

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Saul the Apostle
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Doc says:
quote:
Should Israel stop starving the Palestinians, stealing their land and using their massive leverage with a superpower to get away with acts that are objectively human rights violations
Your views about Israel are not accepted both by many Jewish people, most Israelis and a sizeable portion of Christians. Get over it.

What do you mean starving the Palestinians? Have you been to Palestine? Have you talked with Palestinians (both Muslims and Christian)? Have you visited some Jewish settlements? Have you examined the reality of the so called ''Jewish lobby''? Have you walked around old city Jerusalem and talked with the residents there recently? Well, I have.

I do not accept some aspects of Israeli policy and I am not an unthinking apologist for Israel (like Israel can do NO wrong etc). But I can see raw propaganda and the Turkish ''aid flotilla'' was just that. The article I posted is fine; it posits the question and to a degree answers why you will not see an aid convoy sailing to a Syrian port.

Saul

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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."

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the long ranger
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quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:


What do you mean starving the Palestinians? Have you been to Palestine? Have you talked with Palestinians (both Muslims and Christian)?

quote:
Have you visited some Jewish settlements?
nope, but I've seen the effect on their neighbours of them.

quote:
Have you examined the reality of the so called ''Jewish lobby''?
yes

quote:
Have you walked around old city Jerusalem and talked with the residents there recently? Well, I have.
Wow. That must mean you are right. I'll remember that the next time I have the misfortune to be visiting people in Hebron.

quote:
I do not accept some aspects of Israeli policy and I am not an unthinking apologist for Israel (like Israel can do NO wrong etc). But I can see raw propaganda and the Turkish ''aid flotilla'' was just that. The article I posted is fine; it posits the question and to a degree answers why you will not see an aid convoy sailing to a Syrian port.
Nope, it doesn't. As people keep telling you, but you're not listening are you?

[ 18. October 2012, 15:42: Message edited by: the long ranger ]

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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

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Saul the Apostle
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quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:


What do you mean starving the Palestinians? Have you been to Palestine? Have you talked with Palestinians (both Muslims and Christian)?

quote:
Have you visited some Jewish settlements?
nope, but I've seen the effect on their neighbours of them.

quote:
Have you examined the reality of the so called ''Jewish lobby''?
yes

quote:
Have you walked around old city Jerusalem and talked with the residents there recently? Well, I have.
Wow. That must mean you are right. I'll remember that the next time I have the misfortune to be visiting people in Hebron.

quote:
I do not accept some aspects of Israeli policy and I am not an unthinking apologist for Israel (like Israel can do NO wrong etc). But I can see raw propaganda and the Turkish ''aid flotilla'' was just that. The article I posted is fine; it posits the question and to a degree answers why you will not see an aid convoy sailing to a Syrian port.
Nope, it doesn't. As people keep telling you, but you're not listening are you?

Not such an expert then are you?

I have taken the time to talk to Israeli people in Israel, military and civilian alike.

I suggest you visit Israel and step out beyond your prejudicial standpoint. You may get a pleasant surprise Long Ranger.

S.

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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
I have taken the time to talk to Israeli people in Israel, military and civilian alike.

Spoken to any Palestinians, or do they not count to you?

Wait, sorry, daft question. Of course they don't count to you.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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the long ranger
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quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
Not such an expert then are you?

I have taken the time to talk to Israeli people in Israel, military and civilian alike.

I suggest you visit Israel and step out beyond your prejudicial standpoint. You may get a pleasant surprise Long Ranger.

S.

I have visited Israel and I have spoken to Israelis. I've not visited the settlements because they're illegal and wrong.

I don't see that my education of the conflict is impaired from avoiding the settlements.

You haven't told me whether you've actually visited Palestinian towns behind the wall in the West Bank or Gaza.

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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
Doc says:
quote:
Should Israel stop starving the Palestinians, stealing their land and using their massive leverage with a superpower to get away with acts that are objectively human rights violations
Your views about Israel are not accepted both by many Jewish people, most Israelis and a sizeable portion of Christians. Get over it.
I'm sorry. I wasn't aware that being factually correct required a majority opinion.

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Forward the New Republic

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Saul the Apostle
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quote:
I have visited Israel and I have spoken to Israelis. I've not visited the settlements because they're illegal and wrong.

I don't see that my education of the conflict is impaired from avoiding the settlements.

You haven't told me whether you've actually visited Palestinian towns behind the wall in the West Bank or Gaza.

OK fair enough. I said previously I don't say I am an ''expert'' (on the Middle East etc) but I have read widely around Sykes Picot agreement and the colonial precursor to Palestine/Israel (pre 1948).

I have only been in the West Bank, Syria and Israel; not Gaza as at the time we were advised not to travel there, although I would have liked to. In fact I was struck by the fact that when the only Christian Arab Gazan book shop owner was shot dead a light went out in Gaza (I think this was in 2006). A sad day for tolerance.

Contrary to what may appear, I have much love and time for Arabs. I understand the pressure they're under from all sides, particularly in place like Nazareth. Many have just given up and emigrated from trouble.

My beef, if that's what it's called, is with folk who feel so strongly about the area and have NEVER been and not tried to dig a bit deeper. Obviously you have and I respect your POV.

I also accept there are some Christian Zionists (I don't class myself as such) who are on the outer edges of wackydom and they can do a great deal of harm to Israel and indeed the Jewish people generally. I suppose I was struck by the fact that (IMHO) Israel does seem to be judged quite harshly (and unfairly) in many arenas, not that it doesn't need valid criticism, but often the criticism is much more like a reserved hatred (not saying you hate by the way) but that intense criticism of all things Jewish and Israel can mask a latent anti semitism. I am not (Doc) playing the ''Jew card'', but making a valid point of view about double standards that do clearly exist.

S.

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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
I am not (Doc) playing the ''Jew card'', but making a valid point of view about double standards that do clearly exist.

You only get to play the Jew Card if you're Jewish.

And trust me, you've made a very valid point about double standards. In quite blatant and startling clarity...

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Forward the New Republic

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Saul the Apostle
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
I am not (Doc) playing the ''Jew card'', but making a valid point of view about double standards that do clearly exist.

You only get to play the Jew Card if you're Jewish.

And trust me, you've made a very valid point about double standards. In quite blatant and startling clarity...

Do you say anything vaguely positive?

S.

--------------------
"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
I am not (Doc) playing the ''Jew card'', but making a valid point of view about double standards that do clearly exist.

You only get to play the Jew Card if you're Jewish.

And trust me, you've made a very valid point about double standards. In quite blatant and startling clarity...

Do you say anything vaguely positive?
Loads of stuff. If you were right more often, or even at all, you'd know that. [Big Grin]

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Forward the New Republic

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