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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: No, Mark Betts, I am not going to leave it
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
In the Purg thread about Pussy Riot, Mark Betts said:
quote:
If these women really cared about their children, why did they do it in the first place? Why weren't they at home looking after their children?
The suggestion that a woman who really cares about her children must necessarily be at home looking after them is, as I told you on the other thread, a brilliant example of mysogyny and male privilege.
You wouldn't have asked why a group of young men who were staging a protest weren't home with their children, would you? Of course not. Because men are entitled to pursue a full range of opportunities. Women, apparently, not so much.
Children, of course, do need to be looked after. But I have not read that the women in Pussy Riot left their children unattended in a train station or at a park while they went to the cathedral to stage their protest. If they had done so, I'm sure that child neglect or child endangerment or the like would have been added to the charges against them. So I can only assume that they did what any responsible mother does who has an engagement away from home: They ensured that someone else was going to be tending their children while they were otherwise engaged.
And women are entitled to do that, without having you or anyone else suggest that they don't "really" care about their children.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
That really was a pretty snotty thing to say, Mark Betts. I think you owe every woman on the ship an appology for that one.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
Mr. Betts chose to extend the insult, saying:
quote:
Ken, I don't want to discuss motherhood anymore - I understand there must be something profoundly unnatural about a woman wanting to take care of her own children.
No, you mysogynistic young fool, there is nothing unnatural about a woman wanting to take care of her own children. There is, however, something ugly about a man insisting that a woman who chooses to do anything else must not "really" care about her children. And your sarcasm here doesn't make it any less ugly.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I would be inclined to think a woman who participates in a protest like that cares very much about her children-- and what kind of world they grow up in.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Seriously, Mark? You think that it's obligatory for a mother to be attached to her child at all times? No babysitters? No childcare? No grandparents?
Father goes off and does whatever he likes, no childminding obligations, because he knows that the little woman is chained to the cot?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I would be inclined to think a woman who participates in a protest like that cares very much about her children-- and what kind of world they grow up in.
Exactly.
But even if she didn't, even if this were nothing more than a publicity stunt intended to sell more concert tickets, Mark Betts's opinion would still be vile and misogynistic. Singers, actors, and musicians aren't usually at home with their children 24/7 any more than the rest of us are. And that does not mean that they do not "really" care about their children.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Please leave it, because I already know what the consensus on this board is about such things.
More on point Mark Betts, is the consensus on this board that when Josephine calls you to Hell you have crossed a clearly demarcated line of decency.
Step back, young man.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
So I can only assume that they did what any responsible mother does who has an engagement away from home: They ensured that someone else was going to be tending their children while they were otherwise engaged.
I'm sure the fathers were home watching the children - after all, that is what good fathers do, right?
and just so that Mark can be even more appalled at bad mothers: I've taken my children to protests and demonstrations with me. It's called modeling good behavior. Good behavior, in this case, is not letting your country go to shit out of a lack of interest. My children know that if you want a better world you had better get off your ass and work for it.
at this point, two of my children have organized their own demonstrations. I'm a proud mama.
and furthermore, Mark Betts - eat shit.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Going to demonstrations together is something my daughter and I have done for years.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
Singers, actors, and musicians aren't usually at home with their children 24/7 any more than the rest of us are. And that does not mean that they do not "really" care about their children.
Good point. And as pointed out, who would even think about whether or not any guy involved in a protest is a parent? The idea that nobody cares how much time a dad spends with his kids is both indulgent to men and insulting to men.
The comment is just a brainless parroting of one of the eighty-thousand attitudes built into our society that allow us to judge and condemn every move a woman makes, whether a mother or not.
I say us to be fair, because (working in a female dominated industry) most of the time I am hearing bullshit comments like this, it is other women who are gleefully jumping on the competition/ judgement wagon. Not much of a good example to the Mark Betts of the world.
Sorry, Jo, tangent.
[ 19. August 2012, 03:22: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Sweetie, I don't know what Pammy is bawling about, but you take care of it. I'm playing Bookworm, and anyway you're the woman.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Whaddaya mean you already got the one twin? You got two arms. What kind of mother are you?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Sweetie, I don't know what Pammy is bawling about, but you take care of it. I'm playing Bookworm, and anyway you're the woman.
Sure, I'll take care of Pammy's skinned knee, feed Peter, help Penny with her homework, and give Paula a bath. While I do that, would you change the oil in the car, mow the lawn (and don't forget to edge the sidewalk!), repair the leaky faucet in the bathroom, and figure out what's wrong with the light fixture in the hallway? Thanks, sweetie! ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
It's not fair to poor Mark when you two act in concert.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
Bless your heart Mark.
Lemme see if I can sort this out for you.
You think mothers have an absolute obligation to their children. So do I. In fact, I bet just about everyone on the Ship thinks the same way.
I also think that fathers have an absolute obligation to their children. In fact, I bet just about everyone on the Ship thinks the same way.
What your fellow (masculine, didja like that?) Shippies are saying is that your postings indicated that the mothers had to forgo any ambitions outside the house in order to take care of the kiddiewinks.
There may, or may not, be Shipeversal agreement on that point.
A question you may wish to ask yourself is "Should fathers forgo any outside ambitions because of the obligation to take care of the kiddiewinks?"
Before you answer that question, think about how much outside of household ambition our society demands of people in order to be prosperous enough to raise children outside of poverty.
Take your time. I'll wait.
What I am looking for here is some indication of whether or not you think women have a different set of obligations to their progeny than men.
If so, on what basis do you make that assertion?
Are you suggesting women are better suited to raising children, so only fathers should so EVA's? What could make them better suited other than cultural inculcation?
Again, take your time. I'll wait.
Hint. Apologies are generally well accepted.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
It's not fair to poor Mark when you two act in concert.
The Queen and Prime Bully of Hell™ doesn't need my help to take care of any little shits that cross her. I'm just here to provide comic relief.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
<Mark whines:> Please leave it, because I already know what the consensus on this board is about such things.
More on point Mark Betts, is the consensus on this board that when Josephine calls you to Hell you have crossed a clearly demarcated line of decency.
Boy, howdy. quote:
Step back, young man.
This sounds like more excellent advice that he will completely ignore.
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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
I hope he comes and joins in and tries to defend his argument - it could be so entertaining and today I need a good laugh.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I would be inclined to think a woman who participates in a protest like that cares very much about her children-- and what kind of world they grow up in.
Hear, hear!
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
I hope he comes and joins in and tries to defend his argument - it could be so entertaining and today I need a good laugh.
Well, it's not as if he could send his wife to do it for him.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I would be inclined to think a woman who participates in a protest like that cares very much about her children-- and what kind of world they grow up in.
Don't be a silly billy! That's man's work! Now don't you worry your pretty little head about de big bad world. Surely, choosing your dress for the day and what's for dinner is enough to be going on with? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I'm not sure Mark Betts meant to be as offensively sexist as he was with that remark. But perhaps it's worth considering that there are many ways in which a person - even a female person - may show concern and care for her family and friends. And it doesn't necessarily need to involve changing nappies and cooking all the time.
There's nothing wrong with mothers staying at home minding the kids. Hardly. But even stay at home mums have to go out to do other important stuff, too, like shopping, school-runs etc, and I don't see why an active involvement in politics shouldn't be one of those things.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
Some of wish that Margaret Hilda Thatcher had spent rather more time cooking and dusting and a bit less time in politics!
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Mysogeny, like racism, angers me quite a bit. Amen to Kelly Alves*, they were being good mothers. Good parents care for their child's immediate welfare and their future.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
{Puts on choir robe, joins the chorus, passes around tray of snacks.}
Mark, um, WTH?
FWIW: my knee-jerk reaction to parents taking any kind of risk with their safety or their freedom tends to be "don't!", 'cause the kids need them. However, I apply that more to things like mountain climbing, demolition derby, and grand theft that isn't done to support the kids. That's due to my own particular sensitivities, and isn't necessarily the way the world should be run.
But "stay home with the kids"??? That could mean a scenario like this, which applied to "Grandma", back in the day. Granted, as a mother, her kids were in school. But if they were home and underfoot, she probably wouldn't have had a whole lot of time to give them.
I haven't closely followed the Pussy Riot case. But Putin seems to be a power addict, hurts his people, and won't leave. He keeps finding a way to come back when his term has ended. And, given Russia's history of such "leaders", the woman had a good reason to protest.
[ 19. August 2012, 07:56: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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cosmic dance
Shipmate
# 14025
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Posted
Usually I am greatly afeared to enter the steaming portals of hell, but this Bettsian shit hath caused me to rend mine garment and say,
"Slimy little bastard."
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"No method, no teacher, no guru..." Van Morrison.
Posts: 233 | From: godzone | Registered: Aug 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
He remains slimy in purg - but oddly people are still engaging with him there. Personally, I would have him on my scroll past and ignore list by now.
[ 19. August 2012, 08:05: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
It's not fair to poor Mark when you two act in concert.
The Queen and Prime Bully of Hell™ doesn't need my help to take care of any little shits that cross her. I'm just here to provide comic relief.
Try harder.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Berwickshire
Shipmate
# 15761
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Posted
I am not sure whether anything will get through to a smug and superficial clique but the context is Russian. Apartments are small and expensive. Grandparents are not always available and reliable childcare can be a nightmare in Moscow. The context is also that the penal code allows up to seven years for conspiracy under Article 213(2) where an offence is aggravated by religious hatred. In the circumstances a decision by parents of young children to break the law in pursuit of commercial gain or furthering a musical career is, arguably, selfish and irresponsible.
The calculation that the commercial gain to a band was worth the potential loss to the children (and the other half) went awry in this case. The band has been pushing their luck for some time and topping one tasteless publicity stunt with something yet more outrageous than a chicken no doubt gets progressively more difficult. As it turned out they were lucky to get away with 2 years (less time served). Single people can take these risks if they judge them commercially worthwhile but there is an element of irresponsibility in parents of young children taking that route. Now it may be that the point was put forward by the designated victim in a form of words which were not proof against the assaults what Socialism used to call “Political Correctness” but the underlying idea has merit.
Pussy Riot deserved all they got. Most Russians would add that and more. It is a pity nevertheless when children get penalized by selfish, publicity-seeking parents. I am not sure that in the name of all the sacred Equalities having a dependent child should now be a get-out-of-jail-free card for the holder. Whatever his patronymic, I don’t imagine little Ivan will be altogether comfortable in the playground when his mates ask him where mummy keeps her chickens after she goes shopping. Still, another 18 months or so free of such splendid examples of Russian parenting for little Ivan.
Posts: 57 | From: Eastern Europe | Registered: Jul 2010
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Oooh. Newbie alert.
I think you'll find there are lots of folk here who are both appreciative of the finer points of life in the old Soviet bloc and the in and outs (of prison) of social activism.
You might think that manning the barricades is something left to the 'single', and the babushkas should stay at home, but whatever the rights and wrongs of the case (which is not what we're discussing here, do keep up), you can fuck right off with that.
Back over here on the western fringes of Europe, we had suffragettes. Many of them weren't single, but they were beaten, imprisoned, force-fed and one even died for the cause. And because of them, my grandmothers, mother, wife and daughter have the vote.
Oh, and Mark. You can fuck off too. What you said wasn't just offensive to women, but to any man who believes fatherhood is more than wanking into a vagina.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Berwickshire:
I am not sure whether anything will get through to a smug and superficial clique but the context is Russian. Apartments are small and expensive. Grandparents are not always available and reliable childcare can be a nightmare in Moscow. The context is also that the penal code allows up to seven years for conspiracy under Article 213(2) where an offence is aggravated by religious hatred. In the circumstances a decision by parents of young children to break the law in pursuit of commercial gain or furthering a musical career is, arguably, selfish and irresponsible.
The calculation that the commercial gain to a band was worth the potential loss to the children (and the other half) went awry in this case. The band has been pushing their luck for some time and topping one tasteless publicity stunt with something yet more outrageous than a chicken no doubt gets progressively more difficult. As it turned out they were lucky to get away with 2 years (less time served). Single people can take these risks if they judge them commercially worthwhile but there is an element of irresponsibility in parents of young children taking that route. Now it may be that the point was put forward by the designated victim in a form of words which were not proof against the assaults what Socialism used to call “Political Correctness” but the underlying idea has merit.
Pussy Riot deserved all they got. Most Russians would add that and more. It is a pity nevertheless when children get penalized by selfish, publicity-seeking parents. I am not sure that in the name of all the sacred Equalities having a dependent child should now be a get-out-of-jail-free card for the holder. Whatever his patronymic, I don’t imagine little Ivan will be altogether comfortable in the playground when his mates ask him where mummy keeps her chickens after she goes shopping. Still, another 18 months or so free of such splendid examples of Russian parenting for little Ivan.
I wasn't going to comment here, but thanks Berwickshire for talking a bit of sense over the usual smug self-righteous liberal binge which is the normal consensus on here.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Berwickshire:
the context is Russian
The context is human.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Berwickshire:
I am not sure whether anything will get through to a smug and superficial clique but the context is Russian. Apartments are small and expensive. Grandparents are not always available and reliable childcare can be a nightmare in Moscow. The context is also that the penal code allows up to seven years for conspiracy under Article 213(2) where an offence is aggravated by religious hatred. In the circumstances a decision by parents of young children to break the law in pursuit of commercial gain or furthering a musical career is, arguably, selfish and irresponsible.
The calculation that the commercial gain to a band was worth the potential loss to the children (and the other half) went awry in this case. The band has been pushing their luck for some time and topping one tasteless publicity stunt with something yet more outrageous than a chicken no doubt gets progressively more difficult. As it turned out they were lucky to get away with 2 years (less time served). Single people can take these risks if they judge them commercially worthwhile but there is an element of irresponsibility in parents of young children taking that route. Now it may be that the point was put forward by the designated victim in a form of words which were not proof against the assaults what Socialism used to call “Political Correctness” but the underlying idea has merit.
Pussy Riot deserved all they got. Most Russians would add that and more. It is a pity nevertheless when children get penalized by selfish, publicity-seeking parents. I am not sure that in the name of all the sacred Equalities having a dependent child should now be a get-out-of-jail-free card for the holder. Whatever his patronymic, I don’t imagine little Ivan will be altogether comfortable in the playground when his mates ask him where mummy keeps her chickens after she goes shopping. Still, another 18 months or so free of such splendid examples of Russian parenting for little Ivan.
Most of this is might be relevant in the Purgatory thread, but is spectacularly IRrelevant to the Hell call.
Unless you've got evidence that the women in Pussy Riot didn't make arrangements for their children to be looked after before heading to the cathedral, Mark Betts doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Not least because practically everything you said here should apply to the FATHERS of small children every bit as much as their MOTHERS.
[ 19. August 2012, 09:54: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Not least because practically everything you said here should apply to the FATHERS of small children every bit as much as their MOTHERS.
OK - if a male does something unlawful and offensive and risks being incarcerated, he is wrong and uncaring also. Happy now?
Do two wrongs equal a right? I don't think so.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Do two wrongs equal a right? I don't think so.
So you admit what you said was a wrong?
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Do two wrongs equal a right? I don't think so.
So you admit what you said was a wrong?
I'll gladly admit that what others claimed I meant or was inferring was wrong.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
More on point Mark Betts, is the consensus on this board that when Josephine calls you to Hell you have crossed a clearly demarcated line of decency.
I've no interest in this particular hell call, one way or the other. But you can count me right out of that purported "consensus"...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Do two wrongs equal a right? I don't think so.
So you admit what you said was a wrong?
I'll gladly admit that what others claimed I meant or was inferring was wrong.
I'm not objecting to what you may have meant; I'm objecting to what you said.
Do you understand that saying, "If these women really cared about their children, why weren't they at home taking care of them?" is harmful to women?
And what did you mean, if you didn't mean what you said?
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
...And what did you mean, if you didn't mean what you said?
I think Berwickshire covered it all here.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
Mark, honey, I'm gonna call bullshit on that.
That is not what you originally meant. It was a convenient something to bring up so you could avoid either having to defend a position you know is extremely unpopular, or apologize.
Apologies seem to be something you do not wish to do. This is unfortunate because being capable of apologizing is a part of being mature.
So, defend the mommies should stay at home position. Go ahead, I want to read it.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Scarlet
Mellon Collie
# 1738
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
More on point Mark Betts, is the consensus on this board that when Josephine calls you to Hell you have crossed a clearly demarcated line of decency.
I've no interest in this particular hell call, one way or the other. But you can count me right out of that purported "consensus"...
Add me to the list. I am dearly allergic to being incorporated without having given consent.
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They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
—dialogue from Primer
Posts: 4769 | Registered: Nov 2001
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
...And what did you mean, if you didn't mean what you said?
I think Berwickshire covered it all here.
I'm having trouble seeing the connection between what you said, and what Berwickshire said. Would you spell it out for me?
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
...And what did you mean, if you didn't mean what you said?
I think Berwickshire covered it all here.
Berwickshire certainly coveredit, nine inches deep in horseshit.
btw, the context is justice, and ISTM that the Russian concept of justice has differed from that in the West for centuies.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
What your fellow (masculine, didja like that?)
Is it? Masculine I mean. Its used as an informal term of address for a man, but that's not the same as saying its masculine.
Other than that what you said in your post of course.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Back over here on the western fringes of Europe, we had suffragettes. Many of them weren't single, but they were beaten, imprisoned, force-fed and one even died for the cause. And because of them, my grandmothers, mother, wife and daughter have the vote.
![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif) A- Fucking-men.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
...And what did you mean, if you didn't mean what you said?
I think Berwickshire covered it all here.
I hope not. I mean that I hope that what he wrote is not what you meant, because if it is you would be a much nastier person than you seem to be otherwise.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
My main concern was that the young women should have stayed at home and looked after their children, rather than go out causing mayhem and offence, knowing that they might be arrested and separated from their children. I know some of you think they are modern day "holy fools" but I don't buy that.
My only modification is to add that the same should apply for fathers if they go out and do such things, just for publicity and fame.
I've prettymuch said all this already, but this is where I stand and always did.
I'm sorry Ken if this makes me a nasty person in your eyes, just because you seem to hate any church which doesn't conform to your open evangelical/liberal standards.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Whether the young women of Pussy Riot are modern day "holy fools" or totally misguided idiots is of no consequence.
What you wrote is still sexist shite.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
My main concern was that the young women should have stayed at home and looked after their children, rather than go out causing mayhem and offence, knowing that they might be arrested and separated from their children.
You've got an odd definition of mayhem. Pussy Riot staged their protest in a practically empty church, damaged nothing, and left when they were asked to leave.
And I am not sure that they saw arrest as a major risk. Possible, of course. But initially the cops just took their names and told them to go.
Yet women, and men, have often accepted the risk of being separated from their children when they thought there was something important at stake.
quote:
I know some of you think they are modern day "holy fools" but I don't buy that.
They are Russian Orthodox Christians who are familiar with the tradition of the holy fool, and cited that tradition in their statements. That does not make them holy fools, of course. But it might help someone else understand what they thought they were doing, and why they were doing it.
quote:
My only modification is to add that the same should apply for fathers if they go out and do such things, just for publicity and fame.
And you know they did it "just for publicity and fame" ... how? Do you have the gift of clairvoyance? Or are you absolutely certain that they're liars as well as being shallow fame-seeking irresponsible excuses for mothers?
What reasons are important enough for a parent to risk being separated from their child? Should parents be considered unfit for military duty, because they might be separated from their children? Should they be allowed to serve as fire fighters or police officers? What about people who like to go mountain climbing or parachuting or who ride motorcycles -- should parents be forbidden from doing those things?
What about the suffragists? Was the right to vote important enough to justify their risking going to jail or being killed? What about people who marched for civil rights in the 1960s? I once worked with a woman who could show you the scars on her arms, where the cops set their attack dogs on the protesters. She was a mother. Should she not have marched in that protest?
And, finally, you are aware, aren't you, that the attitude that parents should stay home with their children has been used to keep women out of fields such as law, medicine, and corporate management? That the attitude is harmful to women, even if you intend it to apply to both men and women?
[cleaned that up for you, Dear Queen of Hell]
[ 19. August 2012, 17:14: Message edited by: PeteC ]
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The Queen and Prime Bully of Hell™ doesn't need my help to take care of any little shits that cross her. I'm just here to provide comic relief.
Try harder.
Can't be arsed.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I'm sorry Ken if this makes me a nasty person in your eyes, just because you seem to hate any church which doesn't conform to your open evangelical/liberal standards.
You're really asking for trouble there, Mark Betts, implying that Ken might be a liberal. Even I resist the label and I don't claim to be evangelical.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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