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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard vs Jamat & Wossiname: Round II
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I know I should have left this to wither off the vine after I wrote it a fortnight ago, but here we go:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard: quote:
Originally posted by Jamat: quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard: Jamat why must we all believe, interpret, understand the bible like a three year old ?
quote:
Originally posted Jamat: Because the alternative opens the floodgates for anything goes.
So the chaotic, inconsistent, pre-scientific ramblings of a three year old are to be preferred to the mind of Christ? quote:
It reduces Biblical understanding to the point where it is about as understandable as Nostradamus,
How? quote:
and finally because If, ‘the cat sat on the mat’ as someone saw it there and told you, and that someone was God, then the cat very probably sat on the mat.
If God tells me that He made the universe in six, continuous 24 hour days I will believe Him. Even though it makes Him even more pragmatic – a liar to wooden literalists – by countless orders of magnitude, than His engaging with our savage ignorance as He did in Exodus 20. It would mean that astronomy beyond 6 KLY in our 13.75 Ga 46 GLY visible mote of the probably infinite universe is ALL an illusion.
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard: quote:
Originally posted by Jamat: quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:How can a scrap of poetry on the back of a fag packet edited throughout the entire bronze age be in conflict with science?
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat: Some of Shakespeare’s sonnets were probably written on the backs of old envelopes.
I doubt it. Although there were clay ones 3500 BC, there were none that we would recognise much before 1845.
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Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:How can science, i.e. what we KNOW using our God given senses and brains which have come up with sublime, abstract, perfect, theoretical and concretely REAL quantum mechanics; one of the foundations of creation (in which God had NO choice at all of course), how can that make God a liar ? How can God make God a liar ?
- It doesn’t. The argument is not about deductive or reproducible outcomes. Nor is it about technology. The argument is about speculative interpretations of geological and anthropological evidence which are dictated by a materialistic world view which (IMV and others disagree obviously,) cannot be put to bed with supernaturalism.
- Why not? And this has what to do with my question.
- For the record, I am not a creationist, I am a supernaturalist.
- You are both. I’m the former. In some ways I’m not the latter as I’m panentheist. There’s no way God can be separate from His thinking.
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:The Word does not, cannot under any circumstances contradict the MERE word which is a HUMAN construct. An artefact. A multicultural 500 year span library from humanity's early-mid childhood. No matter that the humans concerned were in relationship with God. An APPARENT killer God. With their feet planted firmly in the mire.
- This is a category error.
- What is?
- Whose word are you talking about Martin? The word of the creator who spoke the universe into being surely has the ability to inspire similar creative utterances through chosen vessels called prophets and to explicate a narrative that can communicate across cultures and time zones? What colossal arrogance it would be (and I do not accuse you of this) to, knowing what it actually is, a message from a world of spirit spoken in terms of human comprehensibility,to then dismiss it as an artifact or human construct.
- The answer is in the case of the initial letter. You’re only clapping with one hand here. I agree completely by the way.
- This would be such colossal arrogance as is spoken of by Paul in Romans ch 1 or indeed demonstrated by those who would seek to muzzle your own mendacious and obscure mutterings which I know are offered in the cause of the maintenance of your own mental health and mitigation of your fears which I do not share, contrary to all assertions, pleas and dismissals by yourself and other posters.
- You liar Jamat.
In at least one obvious way. I wonder if you can guess what it is ? Even without that, I KNOW that you are a liar. Do you know why ?
As for the rest, how fearlessly kind.
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Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard: With you and me.
You have elevated the word ABOVE the Word. This is true, childish, utter idolatry.
So again, what are you SO terrified of ? That's rhetorical in the sense that we're ALL psychotic and reconciled to it, unaware of it since Eden.
- Terror of hell fire is common among those who sense the heat and sniff the smoke. As TS Eliot says: “Burning burning..”
- Who are they Jamat? YECist damnationists projecting their psychosis for sure. Who else? How do you know these poor people? So many of them? They need deliverance from this insanity. Thank God Jesus saves beyond this nightmare.
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Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard: We haven't the faintest idea how FALLEN we are.
- Oh yes we do but do we have any idea of whose grip most of us are in? I think not.
- You don’t know how right you are. How disturbingly right you are.
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Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard: It's obvious in other ways. You think, or rather feel or think experientially, as in how you cross the road, because you cannot analytically think about your thinking; you implicitly 'think' that if the Word contradicts the wooden word (a false dichotomy in the first place) - just like the Church confronted by Galileo - then the word is a lie and therefore the Word lies, therefore ... there is no Word. All is meaninglessness NOW and oblivion awaits NEX.....................................
- Now you presume beyond what you know.
- How?
- We all need a cornerstone. The longer one is on the journey the more one realizes reason and the enlightenment thinking of hope that all will be one day explained in terms of naturalism is a dead cuckoo. A poetry of tears and a sad and dead end.
- Sorry? What has this got to do with anything I’ve said?
- No, one needs a rock. Where then does one go? To the new age? To the ‘secret’ (LOL) to sprirtualism? To the liberal evangelical mishmash that one encounters so often here? No, there is one rock. But he is a total package. You can’t cherry pick the bits that you want. You can’t leave out the creation story.
- Agreed 110%, which is why I wouldn’t dream of it.
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Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard: Even when God WENT WITH THEIR NARRATIVE (which was Indo-European and more, if not universal) and told the Israelites that He was the God who made the world in seven days, He did NOT lie even though it's taken Him 13.6 Ga so far.
Except to you in your arrested development.
And you WON'T see this. And it is NOTHING to do with my failure of communication, except at the most sublime level as some things, most things CANNOT be communicated to someone whose disposition is seared, crushed by fear. Psychotic.
Like me.
- Perhaps, with respect this says more about the writer than the intended recipient. God certainly did not lie. The rocks indeed tell a story. The God of the gaps is under no obligation to join the dots if he chooses not to. It is enough to know that the is as Fran Schaeffer said, ‘The God who Is There.’ If you care to look at the last chapters of Job and Romans Ch 9, then maybe you will believe God’s own testimony if you dismiss mine. (Which I’ve no doubt you will.)
- You haven’t made one. I have no need to look at what I know and believe no less than you, thank you.
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Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard: NOTHING can shake faith. Faith is, should be, AWASH with doubt, with humanity. Jesus' was.
- Oh really? Was it doubt that caused the blind to see and raised the dead and fed the 5000? But don’t worry, your celebration of inconsistency as part of the human story makes its own point. But if there is a certainty, why glorify the confused morass of pain in which we dwell?
- Christ did.
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Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard: I'm a creationist. I'm not a Christian materialist as most of the cognoscenti here are. I do not believe that universes have always happened. I believe that God made this, first universe. I do not believe that life arose spontaneously not because it can't, but because it DIDN'T based on Fermi's EASILY falsifiable paradox - show me an exoplanet with more than trace atmospheric oxygen. I do not believe that mind can arise spontaneously, of itself, endogenously, emergently in life.
I COULD BE WRONG. All it will take is a whiff of oxygen.
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
I used to worry, if I was honest, with the SAME fear you have. If there have always been universes, teaming with intelligent life - us - then whither God ?
Now I just don't care. Thank GOD for that. And, in the mean time, I can STILL happily, validly, faithfully, rationally believe in God being in full relation with His creation, MORE so. The more I read Brian McLaren. DESPITE reading this prophet of the postmodern. As well as because.
- I don’t care either.
- Splendid.
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard: I cannot under any circumstances but brain damage have a wooden understanding of Genesis. But I'm pretty lignified. I can EASILY believe that God touched down and made a perfectly smooth insertion of paradise at Eden in to the 4 Ga evolved biosphere. So smooth that our DNA fits as if we'd evolved completely. As it should if we're to survive.
- Think of the goldilocks zone then. Why is the cat sat on the mat ‘wooden’…if it did?
- In a visible universe of 10^24 planets and moons, goldilocks zones are significant how?
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Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard: But I could be wrong.
- But the Bible cannot be. There’s the rub. You and me and the rest of us since Noah; we most certainly ARE wrong.
- I completely agree on both counts, how could I not?
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Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard: The first 15 minutes of 2001 A Space Odyssey could be more right. Or I could be REALLY wrong, and through sexual selection we ended up as neotenous, bipedal, right angle central nervous systemed, opposable thumbed, naked, beautiful, face to face love making, talking apes with inevitable self awareness.
It certainly post-hoc materialistically looks like it.
- If the man originally came from the dust of the ground and the woman from his rib, then you are not the only one who is wrong.
- I’m not saying that I am wrong at all. Or that that is. Or that anyone is. Except you of course. But you did say if!
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard: EXCEPT for Fermi's paradox. We creationists can ignore Christian materialism due to it being hoist with its own petard in that. Until we get a whiff of oxygen.
Yeah that will be scary. But I'm scared all the time any way. Of looming redundancy, unemployemnt, immobility, impotence, increasing mental illness (acute and chronic intrusive thinking) and cognitive dissonance and impairment.
But all will be well and all IS well because I'm IN God and He's with me in it. He doesn't make it go away, He CAN'T, dementia and death will, but He DOES create space around it all. He IS bigger than me.
- I think if you really have read Julian of Norwich, that you’ll know SHE wasn’t scared all the time.
- No, but she instilled fear with her damnationism. And how do you question whether I have read her?
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard: He's bigger with you and your mental frailties, including YEC, too.
Love – Martin
- If you are IN GOD, Martin then you shouldn’t be scared all the time.
- I pray that you never know the joys of mental illness Jamat. Though perhaps I SHOULD wish it on you, as I wouldn’t want you to miss out. The joy that although you doubt that I am in God, I KNOW that I am and that you are and that all is. Furthermore, in my affliction, which is grievous to me and actually getting more so with age and may well do for me, I have the joy of God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit of compassion being with me in my affliction, which comforts me IN my fears. With my irrational fears. My intrusive thinking from the paraphilic self harm of my youth and the 45 years of dysfunction, weakness, ignorance, sin, pain and loss since. None of which can be left at the foot of the cross, but which the cross bears and makes space around. As I am carried carrying it.
- Now I’m going to look up Fermi’s paradox.
- God is bigger than our narratives.
More love - Martin
[ETA Add first pass at quote coding, DT Hellhost]
[ETA I give up, life is too short, if you look at the first two where I have done the nested quote coding you will see pattern - bold OP, followed by plaintext Jamat reply, followed by Martin's reply to Jamat in italics. Each bold section marks the start of a new exchange, and I have rendered them into list form - DT Hellhost]
[ETA Title fix, sorry about that - had thought Martin was going to re-OP - DT, Hellhost]
[ 14. October 2012, 22:29: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Martin, please would you tell me which pieces of formatting correspond to which poster [ie bold, italic, plain text correspond to whom] - and I will attempt to format your post in an intelligible manner with the quote function. Secondly, please use the UBB practice thread in styx to learn how to do nested quotes.
Doublethink
Hellhost
[ETA On further examination you have not used consistent formatting for each poster, you are just going to have to tell me if I get the attributions wrong.]
[ 14. October 2012, 10:58: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Sorry Doublethink. Please trash it. I didn't mean to cause you any work.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
I note somewhere in there the phrase "The cat sat on the mat."
The Church of England has discussed this matter at length:
The Doctrine of the Feline Sedentation...
How would the Church of England deal with "the cat sat on the mat" if it appeared in the Bible?
The liberal theologians would point out that such a passage did not of course mean that the cat literally sat on the mat. Also, cat and mat had different meanings in those days from today, and anyway, the text should be interpreted according to the customs and practices of the period.
This would lead to an immediate backlash from the Evangelicals. They would make it an essential condition of faith that a real physical, living cat, being a domestic pet of the Felix Domesticus species, and having a whiskered head and furry body, four legs and a tail, did physically place its whole body on a floor covering, designed for that purpose, which is on the floor but not of the floor. The expression "on the floor but not of the floor" would be explained in a leaflet.
Meanwhile, the Catholics would have developed the Festival of the Sedentation of the Blessed Cat. This would teach that the cat was white and majestically reclined on a mat of gold thread before its assumption to the Great Cat Basket of Heaven. This would be commemorated by the singing of the Magnificat, lighting three candles, and ringing a bell five times. This would cause a schism withthe Orthodox Church which would believe that tradition would require Holy Cats Day [as it would be colloquially known] to be marked by lighting six candles and ringing the bell four times. This would be partly resolved by the Cuckoo Land Declaration recognising the traditional validity of each.
Eventually, the House of Bishops would issue a statement on the Doctrine of the Feline Sedentation. It would explain that traditionally the text describes a domestic feline quadruped superjacent to an unattached covering on a fundamental surface. For determining its salvific and eschatological significations, it would follow the heuristic analytical principles adopted in dealing with the Canine Fenestration Question [How much is that doggie in the window?] and the Affirmative Musaceous Paradox [Yes, we have no bananas]. And so on, for another 210 pages.
The General Synod would then commend this report as helpful resource material for clergy to explain to the man in the pew the difficult doctrine of the cat sat on the mat. (All this found on web non accredited)
Fly Safe Pyx_e
[ 14. October 2012, 11:37: Message edited by: Pyx_e ]
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
Pyx_e, ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Pyx_e SandSOL: SnortANDsmileOutLoud
Doublethink, may I post the whole thing again? As per my email?
[ 14. October 2012, 12:27: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Thyme
Shipmate
# 12360
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Posted
Pyx_e ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Fortunately I had been to the loo just before reading this or I would be sueing the Ship for compensation for damaged furnishings
Difficult to select a favourite but I think this
quote:
This would be partly resolved by the Cuckoo Land Declaration recognising the traditional validity of each.
is the cat's whiskers.
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The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog
Posts: 600 | From: Cloud Cuckoo Land | Registered: Feb 2007
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
This would lead to an immediate backlash from the Evangelicals. They would make it an essential condition of faith that a real physical, living cat, being a domestic pet of the Felix Domesticus species, and having a whiskered head and furry body, four legs and a tail, did physically place its whole body on a floor covering, designed for that purpose, which is on the floor but not of the floor. The expression "on the floor but not of the floor" would be explained in a leaflet.
Other Evangelicals would point out that as the tail of the cat is not mentioned in the text that this must be a manx cat. Any other view is heretical and people who believe them are not TrueChristians™.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Pyx_e SandSOL: SnortANDsmileOutLoud
Doublethink, may I post the whole thing again? As per my email?
Yes, I posted a reply in styx, as your pm box is full.
Doublethink
Hellhost
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
Humility dictates (and as noted) not my work. We discussed this passage at Chapter last week, it seemed fitting to include here.
P
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Duly noted.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Thanks Doublethink.
Told you I was stupid.
________________________
Jamat why must we all believe, interpret, understand the bible like a three year old ?
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Because the alternative opens the floodgates for anything goes.
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quote:
So the chaotic, inconsistent, pre-scientific ramblings of a three year old are to be preferred to the mind of Christ?
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It reduces Biblical understanding to the point where it is about as understandable as Nostradamus,
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How?
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and finally because If, ‘the cat sat on the mat’ as someone saw it there and told you, and that someone was God, then the cat very probably sat on the mat.
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If God tells me that He made the universe in six, continuous 24 hour days I will believe Him. Even though it makes Him even more pragmatic – a liar to wooden literalists – by countless orders of magnitude, than His engaging with our savage ignorance as He did in Exodus 20. It would mean that astronomy beyond 6 KLY in our 13.75 Ga 46 GLY visible mote of the probably infinite universe is ALL an illusion.
How can a scrap of poetry on the back of a fag packet edited throughout the entire bronze age be in conflict with science?
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Some of Shakespeare’s sonnets were probably written on the backs of old envelopes.
quote:
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I doubt it. Although there were clay ones 3500 BC, there were none that we would recognise much before 1845.
How can science, i.e. what we KNOW using our God given senses and brains which have come up with sublime, abstract, perfect, theoretical and concretely REAL quantum mechanics; one of the foundations of creation (in which God had NO choice at all of course), how can that make God a liar ? How can God make God a liar ?
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It doesn’t. The argument is not about deductive or reproducible outcomes. Nor is it about technology. The argument is about speculative interpretations of geological and anthropological evidence which are dictated by a materialistic world view which (IMV and others disagree obviously,) cannot be put to bed with supernaturalism.
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Why not? And this has what to do with my question.
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For the record, I am not a creationist, I am a supernaturalist.
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You are both. I’m the former. In some ways I’m not the latter as I’m panentheist. There’s no way God can be separate from His thinking.
The Word does not, cannot under any circumstances contradict the MERE word which is a HUMAN construct. An artefact. A multicultural 500 year span library from humanity's early-mid childhood. No matter that the humans concerned were in relationship with God. An APPARENT killer God. With their feet planted firmly in the mire.
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This is a category error.
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What is?
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Whose word are you talking about Martin? The word of the creator who spoke the universe into being surely has the ability to inspire similar creative utterances through chosen vessels called prophets and to explicate a narrative that can communicate across cultures and time zones? What colossal arrogance it would be (and I do not accuse you of this) to, knowing what it actually is, a message from a world of spirit spoken in terms of human comprehensibility,to then dismiss it as an artifact or human construct.
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The answer is in the case of the initial letter. You’re only clapping with one hand here. I agree completely by the way.
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This would be such colossal arrogance as is spoken of by Paul in Romans ch 1 or indeed demonstrated by those who would seek to muzzle your own mendacious and obscure mutterings which I know are offered in the cause of the maintenance of your own mental health and mitigation of your fears which I do not share, contrary to all assertions, pleas and dismissals by yourself and other posters.
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You liar Jamat.
In at least one obvious way. I wonder if you can guess what it is ? Even without that, I KNOW that you are a liar. Do you know why ?
As for the rest, how fearlessly kind.
With you and me.
You have elevated the word ABOVE the Word. This is true, childish, utter idolatry.
So again, what are you SO terrified of ? That's rhetorical in the sense that we're ALL psychotic and reconciled to it, unaware of it since Eden.
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Terror of hell fire is common among those who sense the heat and sniff the smoke. As TS Eliot says: “Burning burning..”
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Who are they Jamat? YECist damnationists projecting their psychosis for sure. Who else? How do you know these poor people? So many of them? They need deliverance from this insanity. Thank God Jesus saves beyond this nightmare.
We haven't the faintest idea how FALLEN we are.
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Oh yes we do but do we have any idea of whose grip most of us are in? I think not.
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You don’t know how right you are. How disturbingly right you are.
It's obvious in other ways. You think, or rather feel or think experientially, as in how you cross the road, because you cannot analytically think about your thinking; you implicitly 'think' that if the Word contradicts the wooden word (a false dichotomy in the first place) - just like the Church confronted by Galileo - then the word is a lie and therefore the Word lies, therefore ... there is no Word. All is meaninglessness NOW and oblivion awaits NEX.....................................
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Now you presume beyond what you know.
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How?
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We all need a cornerstone. The longer one is on the journey the more one realizes reason and the enlightenment thinking of hope that all will be one day explained in terms of naturalism is a dead cuckoo. A poetry of tears and a sad and dead end.
quote:
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Sorry? What has this got to do with anything I’ve said?
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No, one needs a rock. Where then does one go? To the new age? To the ‘secret’ (LOL) to sprirtualism? To the liberal evangelical mishmash that one encounters so often here? No, there is one rock. But he is a total package. You can’t cherry pick the bits that you want. You can’t leave out the creation story.
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Agreed 110%, which is why I wouldn’t dream of it.
Even when God WENT WITH THEIR NARRATIVE (which was Indo-European and more, if not universal) and told the Israelites that He was the God who made the world in seven days, He did NOT lie even though it's taken Him 13.6 Ga so far.
Except to you in your arrested development.
And you WON'T see this. And it is NOTHING to do with my failure of communication, except at the most sublime level as some things, most things CANNOT be communicated to someone whose disposition is seared, crushed by fear. Psychotic.
Like me.
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Perhaps, with respect this says more about the writer than the intended recipient. God certainly did not lie. The rocks indeed tell a story. The God of the gaps is under no obligation to join the dots if he chooses not to. It is enough to know that the is as Fran Schaeffer said, ‘The God who Is There.’ If you care to look at the last chapters of Job and Romans Ch 9, then maybe you will believe God’s own testimony if you dismiss mine. (Which I’ve no doubt you will.)
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You haven’t made one. I have no need to look at what I know and believe no less than you, thank you.
NOTHING can shake faith. Faith is, should be, AWASH with doubt, with humanity. Jesus' was.
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Oh really? Was it doubt that caused the blind to see and raised the dead and fed the 5000? But don’t worry, your celebration of inconsistency as part of the human story makes its own point. But if there is a certainty, why glorify the confused morass of pain in which we dwell?
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Christ did.
I'm a creationist. I'm not a Christian materialist as most of the cognoscenti here are. I do not believe that universes have always happened. I believe that God made this, first universe. I do not believe that life arose spontaneously not because it can't, but because it DIDN'T based on Fermi's EASILY falsifiable paradox - show me an exoplanet with more than trace atmospheric oxygen. I do not believe that mind can arise spontaneously, of itself, endogenously, emergently in life.
I COULD BE WRONG. All it will take is a whiff of oxygen.
I used to worry, if I was honest, with the SAME fear you have. If there have always been universes, teaming with intelligent life - us - then whither God ?
Now I just don't care. Thank GOD for that. And, in the mean time, I can STILL happily, validly, faithfully, rationally believe in God being in full relation with His creation, MORE so. The more I read Brian McLaren. DESPITE reading this prophet of the postmodern. As well as because.
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I don’t care either.
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Splendid.
I cannot under any circumstances but brain damage have a wooden understanding of Genesis. But I'm pretty lignified. I can EASILY believe that God touched down and made a perfectly smooth insertion of paradise at Eden in to the 4 Ga evolved biosphere. So smooth that our DNA fits as if we'd evolved completely. As it should if we're to survive.
quote:
Think of the goldilocks zone then. Why is the cat sat on the mat ‘wooden’…if it did?
quote:
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In a visible universe of 10^24 planets and moons, goldilocks zones are significant how?
But I could be wrong.
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But the Bible cannot be. There’s the rub. You and me and the rest of us since Noah; we most certainly ARE wrong.
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I completely agree on both counts, how could I not?
The first 15 minutes of 2001 A Space Odyssey could be more right. Or I could be REALLY wrong, and through sexual selection we ended up as neotenous, bipedal, right angle central nervous systemed, opposable thumbed, naked, beautiful, face to face love making, talking apes with inevitable self awareness.
It certainly post-hoc materialistically looks like it.
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If the man originally came from the dust of the ground and the woman from his rib, then you are not the only one who is wrong.
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quote:
I’m not saying that I am wrong at all. Or that that is. Or that anyone is. Except you of course. But you did say if!
EXCEPT for Fermi's paradox. We creationists can ignore Christian materialism due to it being hoist with its own petard in that. Until we get a whiff of oxygen.
Yeah that will be scary. But I'm scared all the time any way. Of looming redundancy, unemployemnt, immobility, impotence, increasing mental illness (acute and chronic intrusive thinking) and cognitive dissonance and impairment.
But all will be well and all IS well because I'm IN God and He's with me in it. He doesn't make it go away, He CAN'T, dementia and death will, but He DOES create space around it all. He IS bigger than me.
quote:
I think if you really have read Julian of Norwich, that you’ll know SHE wasn’t scared all the time.
quote:
quote:
No, but she instilled fear with her damnationism. And how do you question whether I have read her?
He's bigger with you and your mental frailties, including YEC, too.
Love – Martin
quote:
If you are IN GOD, Martin then you shouldn’t be scared all the time.
quote:
quote:
I pray that you never know the joys of mental illness Jamat. Though perhaps I SHOULD wish it on you, as I wouldn’t want you to miss out. The joy that although you doubt that I am in God, I KNOW that I am and that you are and that all is. Furthermore, in my affliction, which is grievous to me and actually getting more so with age and may well do for me, I have the joy of God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit of compassion being with me in my affliction, which comforts me IN my fears. With my irrational fears. My intrusive thinking from the paraphilic self harm of my youth and the 45 years of dysfunction, weakness, ignorance, sin, pain and loss since. None of which can be left at the foot of the cross, but which the cross bears and makes space around. As I am carried carrying it.
quote:
Now I’m going to look up Fermi’s paradox.
quote:
quote:
God is bigger than our narratives.
More love - Martin
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Humility dictates (and as noted) not my work. We discussed this passage at Chapter last week, it seemed fitting to include here.
P
Did you decide which liturgical colour would be most appropriate?
I'd go for gold with whiskers as orphreys.
Two of our higher parishes already have a suitable cushion, so I am told.
P
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
TANGENT ALERT
Martin, have you replaced mysticobscurantism with length?
END TANGENT ALERT
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
you try not letting it out for two weeks then letting it all out at once.
Fly Safe, Pyx_e
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
TANGENT ALERT
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Martin, have you replaced mysticobscurantism with length?
Or as Hegel might say: quote:
if the quantity present in measure exceeds a certain limit, the quality corresponding to it is also put in abeyance. This however is not a negation of quality altogether, but only of this definite quality, the place of which is at once occupied by another. This process of measure, which appears alternately as a mere change in quantity, and then as a sudden revulsion of quantity into quality, may be envisaged under the figure of a nodal (knotted) line"
END TANGENT ALERT
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Humility dictates (and as noted) not my work. We discussed this passage at Chapter last week, it seemed fitting to include here.
P
Did you decide which liturgical colour would be most appropriate?
I'd go for gold with whiskers as orphreys.
Two of our higher parishes already have a suitable cushion, so I am told.
P
I don't think our area dean will go for it. he already thinks i am 'too high'.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
The above posts about cats and cushions reminds me of the RoN cartoon where a cat on a cushion is carried in procession through the church, but nobody can quite remember why. But it is 'tradition' and they 'have always done it this way', so it will continue.
MartinPCnot has always typed in this way. It's a tradition. Or is it?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
I saw the 'potamus take wing
Ascending from the damp savannas,
And quiring angels round him sing
The praise of God, in loud hosannas.
-- TS Elliot
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
... The Doctrine of the Feline Sedentation ...
I know you've said it wasn't original, but I couldn't resist sending it to the Quote File.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
Martin, I am so glad you are here....
And Jamat is a tool. God have mercy on his soul.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Martin! Welcome back! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
And Jamat is a tool. God have mercy on his soul.
Wonderful half-rhyme!
And I'm glad to read Martin again too.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
Might we thus infer God's first name is Sam?
No, it's Geofffrey.
(For the unmusical - Britten's Rejoice in the lamb) - not meant to be condescending so apologies if it appears such.
The name is Jeoffry. For the unpoetical, Christopher Smart's "Jubilate Agno." (Meant to be quite condescending.)
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
Condescension appreciated, thanks.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
But if you want to be really clever, you'd call your cat 'Consider'. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Has anyone actually tried to read Martin's second edit? It's much cooler now, because largely stripped of any identifying marks about who says what. It's basically reads like a Socratic dialogue, where both sides have had an extra helping of Special-K. (No, not the cereal.) Or like psychoanalyze-pinhead on Emacs. Or like Rumi on the rocks. Cosmic. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
Hi Martin,
Hope all is well with you. Thank you for calling me to hell. It has not happened before and I regard it as a rare privilege. What can I say but guilty as charged. Fossils indeed tell a story when they get to a certain age.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
You're welcome Jamat and ... do-do-DO-DO-do-do-DO-DO ... this is the second time as I recall.
As you said, when fossils like us get to a certain age ...
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
And Jamat is a tool.
He has a use?
The minds of these aging spinsters! ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
So you two gonna wrestle, or what ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
So you two gonna wrestle, or what ?
They seem to be fresh out of mud.
Isn't it beautiful if Hell works as advertised?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Ma'am
Well Jamat, have you seen our Socratic dialogue above?
We can keep playing endless rhetorical tennis, while others slag us off, until we're disemvowelled or left disconsolate and then both, or get down to it.
The 'choice' is yours Sir. You have the courage to come and play when none here have the courage to confess that they too are YECists. Because none of them are. You should change your title to "Ship's YECist".
You haven't, as far as I know, levelled the usual wooden YECist accusation that because none of us but you believes that there is any conflict between His myths and His creation, the Word and the word, that we are all less Christian and in fact not Christian at all.
Which is unusual. All YECists in my experience, from the blessed Ken Ham on up, say that if God didn't deceptively create the entire lying cosmos in 6 days 6000 years ago then Jesus is a lie.
If you believed that I'd expect you to say so. Not hide it. The way such YECists who proclaim that hide their personal need for salvation behind the sin of Adam.
I presume you fully accept your personal need for the sacrifice of Christ. That your sins are your own. That Adam has NOTHING to do with your personal responsibility.
I asked you to tell me what you are afraid of and you have indirectly answered that above. It reeks of fear in its incoherence.
As I said before, you're a highly intelligent old guy who's been scared stupid.
And I've JUST got to the point where I should have done from the beginning of feeling sorry for you. Of wanting to embrace you. I just can't find the way.
What is to fear in the pragmatism of God? To the liberal-postmodern camp which I have at least one leg in now, is that He IS violent. What does a wooden literalist have to fear?
"Where will it all end?" is your fear. Where indeed? Not in Godlessness. But in a God not of our making. One who has always met us where we are, whether the living child sacrificing, defaecation offering Bronze age, the accumulated Egypt, Babylon, Persia, Greece afterlife and demon influenced Judea of Jesus or Greco-Roman Christianity we are still virtually ALL trapped in, including non-Catholics and unOrthodox. Or now when we can see ALL of that for what it is.
Our story. Of stories.
HIS story is something else entirely.
His-story is not in YEC, YEC is NOT necessary for it.
If it is for you FINE. Good. God bless you in that. But do not make a FOOL of yourself arguing against science. Arguing against stuff, I have found, always puts one on to a loser. Which is good, because in my case, I've lost so much dross I can't tell you.
God loves whom He chastizes. Purges. Prunes.
What are you FOR mate ?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
The problem with Jamat is not that he's YECcie (that's a problem, but not the problem). The problem is that he is pervasively intellectually dishonest. By this I mean that he repeatedly makes arguments that he doesn't really believe in, and that have no connection to the basis of his opinions. He offers pseudo-scientific arguments for YEC, and when they are refuted, he says, "Oh well, I don't actually know anything about science, I just believe in the Bible." When people try to engage with his theological arguments, he evades, disappears from the thread for a while, then comes back with another bit of pseudo-science, and the cycle repeats. Lately he's introduced a kind of parody of post-modernism in which he asserts that the only basis for disagreement between YECcies and evolutionists is their underlying assumptions, which he insists are equally impermeable to evidence. He's willfully ignorant and has no interest in learning anything. I he were honest he would simply say "I don't believe science is a valid way of understanding the world" (which is the only intellectually honest position for a YECcie), but he hasn't got the balls to do that.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
He's willfully ignorant and has no interest in learning anything. I he were honest he would simply say "I don't believe science is a valid way of understanding the world" (which is the only intellectually honest position for a YECcie), but he hasn't got the balls to do that.
It is a hiding to nothing to try and self-justify so I won't. You should be ashamed to post such drivel about someone you do not know and whose record on these boards has been to avoid personal attacks.
I am happy to allow that from a naturalistic perspective, my stand must seem wifilly ignorant. Have a nice one
Doublethink, I suggest you turn out the lights if keeping this alive devolves upon my participation.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
And in his reply proves your point Timothy the Obscure.
I know people with views like Jamat IRL. I have stopped arguing with them, they all change their viewpoint eventually - it just takes time.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
And in his reply proves your point Timothy the Obscure.
I know people with views like Jamat IRL. I have stopped arguing with them, they all change their viewpoint eventually - it just takes time.
and prayer.*
Fly safe Pyx_e
*and a mallet to the gonads.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Jamat said on the Scientific Dating thread in Dead Horses that he could not believe in God and Jesus if the young earth creation account wasn't true. That if the Bible stories of creation and the Fall weren't true, there was no point to Jesus.
From reading and participating on that thread Jamat sounds to me as if he's desperately trying to hang on to his faith and convince himself that it isn't built on a house of cards. If Jamat's faith really is based on this premise, and he'd have no reason to be posting on those Dead Horses threads with his other posting history, I can see why he is doing what he's doing, however frustrating I find it.
We're not going to convince him of a way to hold his beliefs in balance through a dogpile in Hell.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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agingjb
Shipmate
# 16555
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Posted
Indeed, I wonder if some Christians might be reluctant to persuade Jamat that YEC is nonsense, since he seems so determined to jump straight from a very literal inerrancy to complete atheism.
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Refraction Villanelles
Posts: 464 | From: Southern England | Registered: Jul 2011
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Sounds like one of those Pauline 'food offered to idols' things to me. Sure, I like black pudding, but if our friend is going to lose his faith over it, then I'll not get it out when he's around.
He needs to know I like black pudding, of course - but he needs to feel secure in that I promise not to force it down his throat.
Oooh, it's like 'carry on YEC'. Matron!
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by agingjb:
Indeed, I wonder if some Christians might be reluctant to persuade Jamat that YEC is nonsense, since he seems so determined to jump straight from a very literal inerrancy to complete atheism.
Complete atheism would be less damaging, both to himself and to the rest of the world.
For one thing, it would be a damn sight closer to the truth.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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