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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Language in liturgy
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Am I alone in finding it slightly weird that at Evensong in some of our major churches and cathedrals its becoming increasingly hard to find the canticles sung in English?
I thought I'd just been unlucky but, having been caught a third time, I did some very unscientific digging:
6 weeks at St Paul's = 5 latin canticles
6 weeks at Westminster Abbey = 9 latin
By contrast:
October at Winchester = 1 latin canticles
September at Canterbury = 2 latin
October at York = 2 latin
Why are the London churches using so much latin service music? Seems particularly ironic since there are endless English settings. Hidden agenda or has the fight for "Englished" services been given up after 500 years???
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Am I alone in finding it slightly weird that at Evensong in some of our major churches and cathedrals its becoming increasingly hard to find the canticles sung in English?
I thought I'd just been unlucky but, having been caught a third time, I did some very unscientific digging:
6 weeks at St Paul's = 5 latin canticles
6 weeks at Westminster Abbey = 9 latin
By contrast:
October at Winchester = 1 latin canticles
September at Canterbury = 2 latin
October at York = 2 latin
Why are the London churches using so much latin service music? Seems particularly ironic since there are endless English settings. Hidden agenda or has the fight for "Englished" services been given up after 500 years???
No you're not alone. I agree. Our local cathedral doesn't have that much Latin but has too much for my taste.
One thing that worshipping abroad has made me realise, is that though one obviously can't complain about other people using their language, I prefer worship that uses the one I understand.
There isn't even the excuse with Latin that it must be helping someone else. Nobody has spoken Latin as their first language for well over 1,000 years.
It's clearly contrary to Article 24. I suspect it's driven by liturgical or musical snobbery, and would suspect the musical variety is more likely.
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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
I don't object in principle to Latin in familiar texts such as the ordinary of the mass or the evensong canticles. With respect to the mass, this has been taken for granted for a long time. Way back in my youth (early 1970s), a project of the St. Paul's Cathedral choir was Haydn masses with orchestra. I probably still have a whole sheaf of service lists from King's and noticed that they hardly ever sang an English Communion setting even then.
However, unlike the mass, in which musically first-rate English-language settings are dwarfed by the Latin repertoire, I doubt that Latin has such an advantage when it comes to magnificats. During certain periods in music history, mass settings were the most important forum for musical creativity. This was never the case with Magnificat. Most of these settings are relatively simple and perfunctory IMHO. Equally significant, they are seldom paired with a setting of the Nunc Dimittis. (Why would they be? In the RC liturgy, the two canticles are sung during at two separate offices.) For this reason as well, I think that we can argue, plead and hope for a continuing primacy of English-language evensong settings.
Horrors, if this trend results either from declining choral competence (which I doubt despite ever-growing challenges) or from a desire to broaden the base of repertoire to compensate for a drying up of the inspiration and quality of newly composed settings. But the latter is possible. Who today is worthy of taking up the mantle of Howells and Leighton?
[ 01. October 2012, 22:30: Message edited by: Alogon ]
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
Welcome to the Ship, "L'Organist" (from another one).
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
I admit to a certain impatience with caviling over the language of sung texts in the liturgy or in the divine office.
Books with the texts in English are ubiquitous as is the literacy needed to read them.
The texts themselves are very limited in scope: the Nunc, the Mag, and the Te Deum (see what I just did there?); the Benedictus, the Benedicite, and the Benedictus es, plus the ordinary texts of the mass.
These texts are sung by the choir and not by the congregation, so the congregation doesn't have the varied load of reading, singing, and understanding.
And frankly, understanding is itself highly overrated.
We do not live in mono-lingual culture, if we ever did. For diversity's sake we suffer with not understanding every single word of praise and petition in public worship. Surely it's not too much temporally to extend that inclusivity to our forebears; perhaps they have something to teach us still.
Welcome to the Ship, L'Organist. I intend no slight to you or your ideas; I'm just a crank.
[ 02. October 2012, 01:07: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Welcome, L'Organist! I see you've been finding your way around the Ship already. There's an official Welcome Newbies thread on the All Saints board if you feel so inclined. And be sure to check out the Ship's FAQs and 10 Commandments (links at the top of your screen). Enjoy sailing with us!
Mamacita, Eccles Host
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Surely Cranmer's principle that liturgy should be 'understanded of the people' is already breached by singing even English texts to complicated musical settings in which one has to strain to distinguish, let alone understand, the words. I don't object to this (though my preference is for simpler music) and it can be of course highly effective worship. But Latin, especially for settings of well-known texts which are usually provided with translations in the service leaflets, doesn't cause any more problems.
A better reason for using Latin is to convey the universality of the Gospel and our solidarity with those of other cultures. Many Taizé chants are in Latin or other languages, and can be more effective than English for that reason.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I was thinking this. Frequently one can get to the end of an anthem and still be unclear whether it was sung in Latin or English.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
English visitors to my American parish recently accused the choirmaster of being "twee" because he sometimes schedules the ordinary of the mass in English.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Leo, you'd be surprised just how many English settings there are.
And not all settings are loud - try the setting in F by Dyson, for example: the Magnificat is ravishing.
I do agree with posters that sometimes the diction leaves a lot to be desired...
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Leo, you'd be surprised just how many English settings there are.
And not all settings are loud - try the setting in F by Dyson, for example: the Magnificat is ravishing.
I do agree with posters that sometimes the diction leaves a lot to be desired...
There are a fair few settings in English, but as with most things, it seems a shame, even foolish, to cut ourselves off for what is actually a fairly inessential element. We are talking about a short text (or two short texts in the case of anglican Evensong) which are well known to most people, and which can be found in the order of service.
Anthems are a musical offering, and therefore to me all bets are off. They need to be chosen and sung with all available skill, talent and sensitivity, but I would not make language a bar to the inclusion of anything.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
Anthems are a musical offering, and therefore to me all bets are off. They need to be chosen and sung with all available skill, talent and sensitivity, but I would not make language a bar to the inclusion of anything.
Now this is an issue in our Nonconformist church, where some folk are quite vociferous about not wanting "unintelligible Latin" (or, occasionally, French). Actually it's a bit of a specious argument as it's hard to make out the sung words anyway, and we don't print them in our pew bulletin.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
The OP speaks specifically of the Evensong canticles, and not the ordinary of the mass. I have no issue with musical settings being sung in the language in which they were written, and the use of Latin in particular does connect Anglicans (again, the focus of the OP) with our springing from the Western/Catholic/Latin rite.
But it's clear that the offices are seen as a distinctive Anglican contribution to liturgy; 'patrimony' is the word that springs to mind in relation to the establishment of the Ordinariates. Mattins is less so in many places nowadays, with Communion being frequently the main Sunday service, but Evensong clings on in many places where they do 'traditional' music well, and more often than not it is the language of the 1662 Book of Common Prayer, retained for its familiarity, sublime language, etc.
A quick search on iTunes gives 11 albums consisting entirely of Mag/Nunc settings by cathedral choirs. I'm sure there are repeats in there, and I'm sure the volume varies; I have two of the albums that I've used in contemplative midweek services and as I recall the more powerful mags tend to be followed by gentler nuncs. They're written for the Cranmerian translation, and they're still being written today.
That being the situation, it does seem strange to use Latin settings more than infrequently. I like to listen to the music and words; I don't know the Latin texts and I don't normally need an order of service for 1662, despite not being brought up on it from a young age.
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Charles Read
Shipmate
# 3963
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Posted
Of course we had a big argument about this a few years back in the Church of England.
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It was called the Reformation
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"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh
Posts: 701 | From: Norwich | Registered: Jan 2003
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
Of course we had a big argument about this a few years back in the Church of England.
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It was called the Reformation
There were, if you cast your mind back, one or two other issues.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Actually it's a bit of a specious argument as it's hard to make out the sung words anyway, and we don't print them in our pew bulletin.
We always put the words to an anthem in the bulletin, even if it's in English, for this very reason.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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IconiumBound
Shipmate
# 754
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Posted
From a lot of the above posts I find myself in agreement with those who say that Latin or English doesn't really matter because either one can't be recognized in the singing/arrangement. If one cares about the words, a english translation in the service bulletin would accomplish that.
My own predisposition is that I consider choral liturgy to be elevator music. Maybe the anaology would be to think of it as 'lifting' us up in transcendence.
Posts: 1318 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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St. Punk the Pious
Biblical™ Punk
# 683
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IconiumBound:
My own predisposition is that I consider choral liturgy to be elevator music. Maybe the anaology would be to think of it as 'lifting' us up in transcendence.
It's a good thing I read that three times. I was about to call you to Hell. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Wannabe Anglican, Reader
My reely gud book.
Posts: 4161 | From: Choral Evensong | Registered: Jul 2001
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
No you're not alone. I agree. Our local cathedral doesn't have that much Latin but has too much for my taste.
One thing that worshipping abroad has made me realise, is that though one obviously can't complain about other people using their language, I prefer worship that uses the one I understand.
Really? Travelling always makes me realise how little that matters! The texts are clearly still the same, the music is the same, the ritual is the same... The Sermon might be original but if it is then chances are it's wrong anyway ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
This is especially the case for very well-known words such as the Evensong canticles - which will surely be available in translation as well for those who aren't familiar with them, so I am not sure how big of a problem this is...
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
Posters seem to suggest that it is a choice between English and Latin for the Evensong canticles. But I don't think German is unknown for that in Westminster Abbey if my memory serves. I'm not sure and I may stand to be corrected.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
I am sure German is used now and then - it really just depends upon what has been set to music... I have heard German in the Church of Ireland as well. I *think* I have heard French used once in the CofE too.
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Flinging wide the gates...
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Leo, you'd be surprised just how many English settings there are.
And not all settings are loud - try the setting in F by Dyson, for example: the Magnificat is ravishing.
I do agree with posters that sometimes the diction leaves a lot to be desired...
Not at all surprised. I am in a church with a choral tradition and regularly officiate at Choral Evensongs and hear a large number of English settings (and yet more, courtesy of Radio 3 on Wednesdays).
We haven't done Dyson recently but we made a CD which includes it so I'll test it out.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Morlader
Shipmate
# 16040
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Posted
Wood in D as well.
Going back a bit, Gibbons Short, Causton, several other contrapuntal and verse services
Modern Mag and Nunc composers: Phillip Moore, Gabriel Jackson, both pretty restrained.
I take issue with the OP: I think there are very few Latin Evensong canticles (Mags) performed - almost all are English. But when the men are singing evensong without boys/girls, more Latin Mags are found, with plainsong Nuncs.
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.. to utmost west.
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
I am sure German is used now and then - it really just depends upon what has been set to music... I have heard German in the Church of Ireland as well. I *think* I have heard French used once in the CofE too.
I would be interested to know what the full repertoire is at Westminster Abbey re-settings for Evensong canticles and in what languages they have available.
On their order of service card as suppled to the congregation, they changed the wording from, "...sung in English or Latin." to "...sung in English or another language." (My italics) That may well give a subtle clue.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Over here I have also heard parts of the Mass set in Irish, but never the canticles. The CofI does have an Irish translation of the Prayer Book which presumably includes an order for Evensong, but it would find rather little use.... Welsh might be a better bet. However, neither of these would have a large musical repertoire so I doubt that either of these, nor most other European languages, would have much to interest a choir of the calibre of the Abbey...
I have recordings in Spanish though I've never heard them used in a service.
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
In practice at Westminster Abbey, the language used for the Evensong canticles seems to be almost always either English or Latin. Other (European) languages must be given an airing rather infrequently, therefore.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Leo, you'd be surprised just how many English settings there are.
And not all settings are loud - try the setting in F by Dyson, for example: the Magnificat is ravishing.
I do agree with posters that sometimes the diction leaves a lot to be desired...
Not at all surprised. I am in a church with a choral tradition and regularly officiate at Choral Evensongs and hear a large number of English settings (and yet more, courtesy of Radio 3 on Wednesdays).
We haven't done Dyson recently but we made a CD which includes it so I'll test it out.
Ah - I listened to Dyson in D and although it is full of diminuendos, the organ part is melodramatic.
Back to the drawing board - will look at my CDs again.
My basic point about contemplative music is that the English choral tradition as invented after the Oxford Movement when surpliced choirs began again is that much of the music takes you from A to B, externally, rather than internally into the heart.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Morlader
Shipmate
# 16040
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Posted
There are two Wood in E flat s- the later is, rather obviously, "Wood in E flat Number 2". Wood in D is much quieter and (dare I suggest?) introspective. It is a bit difficult though imho to be introspective in a choir setting.
Same applies to the Two Dyson settings: in D, lots of extrovert music; in F much quieter.
Byrd, Tallis and lesser figures wrote non-bombastic settings. There's a setting by one Osbert Parsley which I'm longing to perform - or hear.
Re Latin settings, I received today the monthly music list from Oct 7th from Truro. As I expected, no Latin canticles. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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.. to utmost west.
Posts: 858 | From: Not England | Registered: Nov 2010
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
There is a very simple setting by Morley - plainsong with fauxbourdons - that can be done well by the smallest choir.
I've gone through my own collection and we could just about do a year with no duplications.
Yes, WA does do a German Magnificat - Schutz, I think.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Morlader
Shipmate
# 16040
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
But Jackson? You must be joking. he is one of the most flamboyant.
Are we talking about the same Jackson? Francis J, of York Minster fame, can certainly be flamboyant at times, but Gabriel J is very different from the Wesley/Stanford/Brewer... stream.
Speaking of Stanford, and back to the OP, there's a Stanford Latin Magnificat for double choir, though I have never seen it billed liturgically. Same goes for German Mags, though there are concert performances, of course - and perhaps (?) liturgical performances in Germany.
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.. to utmost west.
Posts: 858 | From: Not England | Registered: Nov 2010
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Laurence
Shipmate
# 9135
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Posted
The Stanford Latin Mag is interesting and fun to sing- but possibly better as the climax of a festal Solemn Vespers than a cold Tuesday Evensong!
The major issue of doing Latin Mags and Nuncs is finding suitable pairings, as they don't usually come as a set. It can overbalance BCP Evensong to have one canticle huge and the other tiny (or just done to chant).
Moreover, most Latin Mag/Nunc settings were meant to be the climax of either Vespers or Compline, so there needs to be care taken not to overload the service as a whole with two huge settings.
So my college often put Arvo Part's Magnificat with Holst's Nunc Dimittis- both very beautiful and moderately challenging, but in different ways. Similarly, we tended to pair an expansive and festal Palestrina Mag with a more minor-sounding Lassus Nunc.
Occasionally we would do the Schutz German Magnificat- but it's such an amazing piece of florid Baroque work, it made whatever followed it a bit of an anticlimax!
Posts: 648 | From: Lincolnshire | Registered: Feb 2005
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
In practice at Westminster Abbey, the language used for the Evensong canticles seems to be almost always either English or Latin. Other (European) languages must be given an airing rather infrequently, therefore.
If I were a rector, ordinary, or the like, I would frown upon a Magnificat in e.g. German (unlike Latin) as having no liturgical precedent in our tradition or branch of the church.
In the current TEC BCP, we have a rubric to the effect that a "previously authorized text" may be used. A very low churchman might say that this covers only previously authorized English texts. However, I'd emphatically argue (with most people nowadays, I hope) that since the Church of England is a continuation of the pre-reformation church in England, the Latin is a previously authorized text of the same church. For purposes of its role in the liturgy, a translation into another language could not serve, however. Is there an equivalent rubric or understanding in current Church of England practice?
A text in any language would be fine in an anthem.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
. . .
In the current TEC BCP, we have a rubric to the effect that a "previously authorized text" may be used. A very low churchman might say that this covers only previously authorized English texts. However, I'd emphatically argue (with most people nowadays, I hope) that since the Church of England is a continuation of the pre-reformation church in England, the Latin is a previously authorized text of the same church. For purposes of its role in the liturgy, a translation into another language could not serve, however. Is there an equivalent rubric or understanding in current Church of England practice?
You don't really need the 'previously authorized' route. The rule in the Church of England is not that public worship has to be in English, but in a language "understanded of the people". Authorized Latin, Welsh and French versions of the Prayer Book appeared soon after the English one.
[Code fix. Mamacita, Host]
[ 06. October 2012, 02:42: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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Morlader
Shipmate
# 16040
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Posted
In Cornwall, the Bishop of Truro has authorised the use of Lyver Pysadow Kemmyn (Book of Common Prayer). LPK is a translation of services from English BCP1662 into Cornish. [It has been respelt into the latest Cornish orthography, but retains the original (1980s ? I can't find mine now) mistranslations.]
So, not "understanded of the majority of the people" as there are perhaps 300 people in the UK who understand Cornish at spoken - or sung! - delivery speeds.
I guess the interpretation is "whatever language is authorised in/for a particular location/occasion."
[ 06. October 2012, 09:18: Message edited by: Morlader ]
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.. to utmost west.
Posts: 858 | From: Not England | Registered: Nov 2010
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
This all reminds me of something I read in the RSCM magazine years ago:
Visitor to Cardiff Vicar after service: 'It was wonderful, visiting the capital of Wales, to hear the choir singing all the hymns in Welsh'.
Cardiff Vicar: 'they weren't'.
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Morlader:
In Cornwall, the Bishop of Truro has authorised the use of Lyver Pysadow Kemmyn (Book of Common Prayer). LPK is a translation of services from English BCP1662 into Cornish. [It has been respelt into the latest Cornish orthography, but retains the original (1980s ? I can't find mine now) mistranslations.]
So, not "understanded of the majority of the people" as there are perhaps 300 people in the UK who understand Cornish at spoken - or sung! - delivery speeds.
I guess the interpretation is "whatever language is authorised in/for a particular location/occasion."
I think one has to be sensible about these things however - I very much doubt that my Lord of Truro expects any of his parishes to switch over to offering the main Sunday service in Cornish, sermon and all, or that he would be very pleased to hear of such a thing. The use of occasional Cornish services for cultural occasions or incorporation of certain musical settings of Cornish parts of the liturgy is presumably more along the lines of what he is hoping to encourage!
Similarly I don't think the use of occasional Latin canticles is or German motets is quite what the Article on services being 'understanded of the people' was railing at.
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
The Scottish Epsicopal Church has provision for services to be held in Gaidhlig, as recently happened in Campbeltown. Not sure whether any SEC congregations regularly use Gaidhlig but I suspect not.
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The Silent Acolyte
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# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Corvo:
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
In the current TEC BCP, we have a rubric to the effect that ...
You don't really need the 'previously authorized' route. The rule in the Church of England is not...
...at all germane to the point Alogon was making about an Episcopal Church rubric.
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
I rather enjoy the Latin in our cathedrals and always approved of Taize - as a way of sneaking it in.
I agree with those who have a problem understanding language and meaning in some churches, however. There was a song or an anthem or something I heard recently that went something like 'Yeah Jeeesuuus loves Meeee/ Bottle of wine fruit of the wine/ when you gonna set me freeeee.' I can't be quite suere as it was incomprehensible.
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sebhyatt
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Metapelagius
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# 9453
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
The Scottish Epsicopal Church has provision for services to be held in Gaidhlig, as recently happened in Campbeltown. Not sure whether any SEC congregations regularly use Gaidhlig but I suspect not.
Provision was made for worship in Gaelic as early as 1567 when John Carswell published his Foirm na n-Urrnuidheadh, based on Knox's Book of Common Order of 1564. William Salesbury, by coincidence, published his Llyfr Gweddi Gyffredin in the same year.
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
Posts: 1032 | From: Hereabouts | Registered: May 2005
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Morlader
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# 16040
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Morlader:
[qb] I think one has to be sensible about these things however - I very much doubt that my Lord of Truro expects any of his parishes to switch over to offering the main Sunday service in Cornish, sermon and all, or that he would be very pleased to hear of such a thing. The use of occasional Cornish services for cultural occasions or incorporation of certain musical settings of Cornish parts of the liturgy is presumably more along the lines of what he is hoping to encourage!
Similarly I don't think the use of occasional Latin canticles is or German motets is quite what the Article on services being 'understanded of the people' was railing at.
Yes, I agree. But when Latin canticles are used the rest of the service is in English, I expect. However choral evensong in Truro Cath has been completely in Cornish ( no sermon) many times. I know because I have composed, conducted and sung at them. Otherwise, yes, only at Cornish language occasions like Gorsedh services, not at main services in normal parish settings.
Truro has done complete Latin masses though: last year there was one.
I wont go along the tangent of the political implications of the enforcement of the BCP on the Cornish - sighs of relief, do I hear?
[ 06. October 2012, 21:33: Message edited by: Morlader ]
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.. to utmost west.
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
Sometimes I think we become too obsessed about language in liturgy. In my own tradition, Luther is well-known for desiring liturgical language that could be understood by the people. That said, if Luther encountered a modern service, there is no doubt in my mind that he would have been okay with the occasional Latin setting of the ordinary. He'd probably like a bulletin with Latin and translation provided, but he'd probably like it better if we all just understood Latin.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
The Scottish Epsicopal Church has provision for services to be held in Gaidhlig, as recently happened in Campbeltown. Not sure whether any SEC congregations regularly use Gaidhlig but I suspect not.
Provision was made for worship in Gaelic as early as 1567 when John Carswell published his Foirm na n-Urrnuidheadh, based on Knox's Book of Common Order of 1564.
But that is the liturgy of the Church of Scotland, not that of the Scottish Epsicopal Church, which did not exist as a separate denomination before the Civil Wars. For the first century or so after the Reformation, in Scotland as well as England, Presbyterians and Epsicopalians weren't two denominations, they were two parties within one national church who differed on how the church should be governed. Or rather two ends of a spectrum, because some individuals (including perhaps Carswell) supported aspects of both polities.
The Book of Common Prayer was translated into Irish very early - possibly the first modern book ever to be translated into Irish. I'm not sure about Scots Gaelic though. The current Gaelic BCP is a 19th century translation I think. Charles I and Bishop Laud tried and failed to impose an English-style Prayerbook on Scotland in 1637, but I have no idea if it was ever in Gaelic. I woudl guess probably not.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Metapelagius
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# 9453
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
The Scottish Epsicopal Church has provision for services to be held in Gaidhlig, as recently happened in Campbeltown. Not sure whether any SEC congregations regularly use Gaidhlig but I suspect not.
Provision was made for worship in Gaelic as early as 1567 when John Carswell published his Foirm na n-Urrnuidheadh, based on Knox's Book of Common Order of 1564.
But that is the liturgy of the Church of Scotland, not that of the Scottish Epsicopal Church, which did not exist as a separate denomination before the Civil Wars. For the first century or so after the Reformation, in Scotland as well as England, Presbyterians and Epsicopalians weren't two denominations, they were two parties within one national church who differed on how the church should be governed. Or rather two ends of a spectrum, because some individuals (including perhaps Carswell) supported aspects of both polities.
The Book of Common Prayer was translated into Irish very early - possibly the first modern book ever to be translated into Irish. I'm not sure about Scots Gaelic though. The current Gaelic BCP is a 19th century translation I think. Charles I and Bishop Laud tried and failed to impose an English-style Prayerbook on Scotland in 1637, but I have no idea if it was ever in Gaelic. I woudl guess probably not.
Of course. But given the topic 'Language in liturgy' a reference to a Gaelic book doesn't seem out of place. The SEC, obviously, didn't come into being as a separate body until the CoS became definitively presbyterian after the expulsion of James VII - just as the CoE became definitively episcopalian in 1662 after the ejection of those who sought further reform.
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
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