|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: September book: The Daughter of Time
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
The book to read and discuss this September is Josephine Tey's The Daughter of Time which we've chosen to tie in with the Hollow Crown series and because I wanted to reread it after seeing Richard III this summer at the Globe. It's part detective story, part historical investigation. And if you've never read Josephine Tey, she's worth discovering too.
Questions about the book posted from about the 20th September. (I've already reread it and have found some things to ask .. I just need to remember to do this)
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
|
Posted
I love that book and have read it many times.
Moo
--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
|
Posted
I love it too but don't have a copy -- must have read it from the library originally. This is a good excuse to buy it, probably as an ebook.
--------------------
Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
|
Posted
Count me in. This is one I re-read fairly regularly - every few years.
--------------------
But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Scarlet
Mellon Collie
# 1738
|
Posted
Curiously, this is right on time ![[Smile]](smile.gif) I'm walking to my library this morning to surrender a couple of books and some magazines and was wondering what I could pick up to read next. I see they have two copies of this shelved, so I'll be in for this one.
--------------------
They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
—dialogue from Primer
Posts: 4769 | Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
birdie
fowl
# 2173
|
Posted
Ooh, this is a great book. I think I've got a copy somewhere... If I find it in the next week or so, I'm in.
--------------------
"Gentlemen, I wash my hands of this weirdness."
Captain Jack Sparrow
Posts: 1290 | From: the edge | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
|
Posted
Count me in, I really like Josephine Tey.
--------------------
'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
QLib
Bad Example
# 43
|
Posted
Long time since I read the book, but I've read a lot around the subject recently, so may join in if the discussion goes that way.
--------------------
Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
|
Posted
I haven't joined in book club discussions before, but being a member of the Richard III Society I may butt in too, if that's ok.
--------------------
Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
|
Posted
I can get it for NOOK from Amazon for $10 US - is that a fair price?
--------------------
If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ann
Curious
# 94
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
I can get it for NOOK from Amazon for $10 US - is that a fair price?
If you register (free) on MobileRead, you can download it for free for several formats - this link is readable by Kindle - but they have other formats.
--------------------
Ann
Posts: 3271 | From: IO 91 PI | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
|
Posted
Finished- how fascinating!
Looking forward to the discussion.
--------------------
"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
Posts: 5257 | From: me to you. | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Scarlet
Mellon Collie
# 1738
|
Posted
I've completed it as well ~ the author was new to me, but I so liked this book I'm going to borrow whatever else my library has available. I can't believe how easily I escaped right into the plot.
--------------------
They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
—dialogue from Primer
Posts: 4769 | Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
hilaryg
Shipmate
# 11690
|
Posted
I needed a short book to take with me today, and I've not read this for a while. Halfway through now. Like Curiosity, I also saw Richard III at the Globe this season, so excellent timing.
Posts: 261 | From: back home in England | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
|
Posted
Scalet - I'd recommend Miss Pym Disposes. Good detective novel and interesting from a philosophical point of view too.
--------------------
'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
|
Posted
My three favorites are Brat Farrar, The Franchise Affair, and The Daughter of Time.
Moo
--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Weeder
Shipmate
# 11321
|
Posted
Daughter of Time, Miss Pym Disposes, and the Franchise Affair are my top 3 favourites. I have just re-read D of T, but wil read it yet again, to gear up for the discussion. I am about to read the Singing Sands for the first time, but that can wait.
My less serous reading group theme for the next meet is 'Recommend a favourite book'. Needless to say, I am recommendig Josephine Tey, along with Nancy Mitfords Love in a Cold Climate and Pursuit of Love.
--------------------
Still missing the gator
Posts: 2542 | From: LaLa Land | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Scarlet
Mellon Collie
# 1738
|
Posted
Curiously, neither Miss Pym Disposes nor The Franchise Affair are available in my entire library system. I can request a couple of different ones from other branches, which I will.
Happily, I was able to check out Brat Farrar, and it looks stunning! I hope it's as spellbinding as the cover suggests. I'll start in tonight.
--------------------
They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
—dialogue from Primer
Posts: 4769 | Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
hilaryg
Shipmate
# 11690
|
Posted
This news about Richard III may be of interest and relevance.
Posts: 261 | From: back home in England | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
|
Posted
I first read this as a teenager when my grandparents gave it to me to read and I have revisited it several times since. In grade 11, we studied Richard III and I had a chance to play Richard in the wooing scene. Daughter of Time is one of those books that drags you along and is almost impossible to put down.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hilaryg:
This news about Richard III may be of interest and relevance.
As an ardent Ricardian I am very excited about this dig - it seems almost too good to be true that Richard's remains may have been found, and much research needs to be done on the bones first.
The Daughter of Time is a good read, and presents a lot of interesting debate.
--------------------
Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
Having written the questions, I think I'm going to start two threads, one here to discuss the book and one in Purgatory to discuss the wider issues, particularly because there's so much in the news.
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
|
Posted
<=== Need I say more? I read Tey's book decades ago, and this started me on a long quest to discover the truth. It is now settled in my mind. I am fascinated that they think they have discovered the grave of the last King of the English, and I will be watching this thread and any Purgatorial thread with interest
--------------------
Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
|
Posted
Just checked out the university library's copy and will re-read it on the weekend. Always a pleasant treat.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
So, having been overtaken by events, I've posted the question I was going to ask in Purgatory on this thread - and it's asking if we still need to rehabilitate the reputation of Richard III. There were tangents going into that direction, as well as a discussion as to how he should be buried should it have been his bones found.
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mili
Shipmate
# 3254
|
Posted
I thought I'd missed joining in this month as I accidentally read the thread wrong on on my phone at the library and read October's book early! Then later when I checked there were no library copies available.
Thanks to the thread in Purg I realised I too read this book years ago when I was a teenager. My Mum had borrowed it from the library so I don't have my own copy to read. However now that I remember what a good book it was I think I'll have to reread it. I'll at least try to join in the discussion from what I remember.
I think it inspired me to think more critically about historical stories and sources and consider who they were written by (useful when I ended up studying history at university) and also to read further about the mysterious murder of the two princes.
Posts: 1015 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
birdie
fowl
# 2173
|
Posted
My copy hasn't turned up yet post-move, but I saw a copy in a charity shop today for a couple of pounds, so I'm in!
--------------------
"Gentlemen, I wash my hands of this weirdness."
Captain Jack Sparrow
Posts: 1290 | From: the edge | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mili:
I thought I'd missed joining in this month as I accidentally read the thread wrong on on my phone at the library and read October's book early! Then later when I checked there were no library copies available.
And now I've gone and moved October's book to January!
--------------------
"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
Posts: 5257 | From: me to you. | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mili
Shipmate
# 3254
|
Posted
I'll be well prepared for January then!
Posts: 1015 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
|
Posted
I've just downloaded the book to our iMac's Kindle app and begun reading. I have a lot of days off and will try to finish it by the end of next week.
--------------------
If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Scarlet
Mellon Collie
# 1738
|
Posted
It really doesn't take very long to read.
Due to my "special ability" I have trouble parsing my way through a lot of literature now. I used to read a book a night. I think I finished this one overnight...
--------------------
They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
—dialogue from Primer
Posts: 4769 | Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
|
Posted
I read this, and then later re-read it, long ago (and really should have had the sense to add it to my personal library). Is it too late to join in, given that I'll have to re-read it?
--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
birdie
fowl
# 2173
|
Posted
I bought a copy yesterday and finished it this afternoon, so I should think you'll be fine!
--------------------
"Gentlemen, I wash my hands of this weirdness."
Captain Jack Sparrow
Posts: 1290 | From: the edge | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
Porridge, the discussion isn't starting until 20th September, as usual, and you can join in whenever you've finished. For some books the discussion continues into the next month - The Lieutenant by Kate Greville was like that.
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
|
Posted
I finished it on Saturday. It was as much of a pleasure as all of my previous readings of it.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
|
Posted
Am enjoying it. Day off, so I shall read much.
--------------------
If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
|
Posted
I now recall that this book inspired in me an urgent desire to find primary instead of secondary sources when I undertook school-days research.
[ 17. September 2012, 21:02: Message edited by: Porridge ]
--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sparrow
Shipmate
# 2458
|
Posted
Half way through it and dismayed to remember how fiendishly complicated all the background is - all those Plantagenets, Nevilles and Woodvilles!
--------------------
For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Posts: 3149 | From: Bottom right hand corner of the UK | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
|
Posted
It is puzzling to me too! Not to mention the going back and forth from the history book with its royals to a commoner in the present day...
--------------------
If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
hilaryg
Shipmate
# 11690
|
Posted
There are quite a few family trees for Richard III out in google-land. I like info in diagram form, helps me remember who's who.
Posts: 261 | From: back home in England | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
OK - nearly 20th September and the Purgatory thread is ongoing, so time for questions here:
- Did you think that the narrative structure worked? What about the use of a detective novel to question received history and look at academic research? What about the total inaction of Alan Grant, stuck in a hospital bed? Did Tey manage to build suspense in these circumstances?
- What do you think about the idea that you can know a person's character from their face? Is this more true of portraits than of photographs?
- Daughter of Time was written in 1951, over 60 years ago. How much is this a book of its time, and is it still worth reading today, particularly reading with teenage daughters?
- Daughter of Time is listed as one of the top detective stories of all time. Would you agree with this assessment?
- One of the book club questions I found wondered how convincingly the detection methods here compare to modern detective novels, do you think you can compare this narrative to a modern detective novel?
- Did you change your views about Richard III and/or written history after reading this book?
- I found it interesting that this book is recommended in suggested book lists for reconnecting with your teenager daughter, do you think that this would work?
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
|
Posted
Well, I don't have a teenage daughter (I do have a niece in that age range). I have a hard time imagining her connecting to this book. Here'e what I suspect might stand in her way:
She selects reading with female main characters. She would find Grant a total bore, and consider Brent a nerd or a geek. She'd want some romance (Atlanta never comes "onstage.")
Also, the language differences -- in time as well as place -- would get in her way (as well as the bit of French, untranslated, which she'd regard as writerly "showing off.")
--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
Interesting that you're so convinced it wouldn't work with your teenage niece. My daughter, now 24, hasn't read this one, but did read Brat Farrar, which she loved and another which we suspect might have been Kif which she didn't when she was younger. If a teenager is going to be so blinkered about what is acceptable reading how are are they ever going to access the classics? And that explains a lot about how difficult it is to teach English literature in English schools.
Answering the questions
- Did you think that the narrative structure worked? I found it an interesting way of telling this story. What about the use of a detective novel to question received history and look at academic research? I like the use of detective fiction that does more than just pose puzzles, so enjoyed this. What about the total inaction of Alan Grant, stuck in a hospital bed? I hadn't really noticed that it was built that way until I researched the questions, because the action came to him. Did Tey manage to build suspense in these circumstances? certainly the first time I read it, yes, not so much now.
- What do you think about the idea that you can know a person's character from their face? Is this more true of portraits than of photographs? This is a question I put in after the discussions on the Ship recently, when there was fury at the suggestion that it might be possible to discern character from photographs. When I was rereading the book I was wondering why this conceit was accepted here. I think I concluded that portraits are different. The portrait painter is also trying to express character in the portrayal. And it's where a lot of portrait photography is too, but not identification snapshots, which deliberately aim to avoid personality.
- Daughter of Time was written in 1951, over 60 years ago. How much is this a book of its time, and is it still worth reading today? Rereading it this time I was really noticing the details that dated it, which was why I asked the question, but I still did think it was worth reading the book for the way it told the story.
- Daughter of Time is listed as one of the top detective stories of all time. Would you agree with this assessment? I do think it's one of the better detective stories that I've read, and others here were reacting similarly.
- One of the book club questions I found wondered how convincingly the detection methods here compare to modern detective novels, do you think you can compare this narrative to a modern detective novel? I didn't think it was comparable, but wondered what others thought.
- Did you change your views about Richard III and/or written history after reading this book? I definitely did the first time I read it - and have been involved in primary sources research since.
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
[list=1]
[*]Did you think that the narrative structure worked? What about the use of a detective novel to question received history and look at academic research? What about the total inaction of Alan Grant, stuck in a hospital bed? Did Tey manage to build suspense in these circumstances?
For me the narrative structure worked well. The fairly simple device of "delaying" visitors -- perfectly believable in the context of Grant's hospitalization, where time (and perhaps her daughters!) does indeed hang heavy while one's busy friends are squeezing visits into their schedules -- here works well. And I for one disagree that Grant was inactive; he kept his questioning mind and imagination (and Carradine!)busy.
I confess it did bother me a bit that Brent was carrying out all this footwork at the BM and then essentially begging Grant's permission to write the book.
--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Weeder
Shipmate
# 11321
|
Posted
I enjoyed the book as much as I did the first time around. In the first reading, I read for plot, and was fascinated- this is when was about 14/15. The concept of history being written by the victors, who could be unreliable narrators, was new to me at that age. It has stood me in good stead ever since! My A level History Mistress was equally clear on this point. She was a Marxist, so, 'she would, wouldn't she?'
I had almost forgotten that there was a modern day plot- the Richard 3 story is so
compelling.
--------------------
Still missing the gator
Posts: 2542 | From: LaLa Land | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
|
Posted
I read it many years ago. I still remember it, and where I read it, so it must have grabbed me.
I'd say it bears many similarities to The Da Vinci Code, only more intelligent and much better written. The procedure of parcelling out information, chasing false leads, and so on, is a good structure for interesting your readership in your argument and for keeping them reading along. At the same time, I think now that it's just a little bit too pat. A detective story has a puzzle with a clear solution. That can make the historical evidence seem over-clear.
--------------------
we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
[*]What do you think about the idea that you can know a person's character from their face? Is this more true of portraits than of photographs?
Initially, I found this an alienating note, as I think of this as a quaint antique and utterly mistaken idea. However, Tey (through Grant) amended and fuzzied the notion up enough to make it (just barely) acceptable for contemporary consumption.
I thik the question about portraits takes us to two very different levels. First, it means we're looking at the face-in-question through another's eyes, so we're seeing someone else's "version" of the subject. Yet there's little, if anything, we can know about that other person's perspective. How do we know of the painter had an agenda? A biased or prejudiced view of the subject? In this instance, after all, it was not only the painter's reaction(s) to Richard, but other viewers' responses to the portrait, that set the inquiry in motion.
Second, though, the fact that 400 years and assorted cultural upheavals separate viewer and portrait (with little if any effort to "compensate" for the differences in perception this might entail) seems to me to be swept aside rather casually.
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
[*]Daughter of Time is listed as one of the top detective stories of all time. Would you agree with this assessment?
I doubt I can address this; I've read a lot of detective stories but am no expert. What I suspect, though, is that Tey's use of very different forms of evidence and reasoning than are usually encountered in this genre make it among the most original of its kind.
--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
