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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: what is considered offensive?
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no prophet's flag is set so...
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# 15560
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Posted
In this thread http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=016378;p=1#000023, the following was posted:
quote:
Of course beaner is a slur, it's right up there with wetback or mojado. Someone once called by husband one and I can attest to the fact that it will result in an ass kicking.
I had never before seen the term beaner, nor have ever seen the term mojado before.
But I have seen the word "fucktard" used relatively frequently on Ship, and find this about as offensive as possible, right up there with "nigger". I have worked with people of less than average IQ, and continue to know several, and I know they would be offended. "Retarded" used to be acceptable terminology, at least until the early 1980s, and was even included in the name of several organisations here. It is not acceptable now, to combine it with the worse English language curse available. or is it?
How do we decide what term is offensive and should not be used due to discrimination and prejudice, and which we would accept?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
The Ship has a policy against most derogatory -isms -- racism, sexism, etc are off-limits. I quote from the first of our ten commandments:
quote:
1. Don't be a jerk
Lively, intelligent discussion is what we're about. Jerkish behavior includes (but is not limited to): racism, sexism and all the other negative -isms, trolling and flame-baiting.
While generic put-downs may reasonably be viewed as the province of jerks, we are pretty slow to call folks on such things. Generally, we will warn people to attack the argument, not the person. But the level of offense is seen as more a faux pas than a violation of Ship law unless people fail to heed hostly warnings.
--Tom Clune, Purgatory Host
ETA: after posting this, I've decided that this thread is really the province of Styx. So I am going to move it there.
[ 12. October 2011, 19:50: Message edited by: tclune ]
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
As I understand it, the intent and generality of the comments are at the heart.
If I was to call you a fucking shithead, that is a fairly general piece of offensiveness. However, if I were to respond to a comment about your response ot racism by saying "thats just what a wop should expect" that would be personal, and intended to be purely offensive.
In my view, the first is acceptable, the latter not, despite the fact that the first might be more agressive.
If the comments are personal then this breaks commandment 3 - attack the issue not the person. Making comments that are deliberately personal ( or knowing that they will be taken personally ) is unacceptable. Making comments about the argument - however agressively rude - is acceptable.
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Blog
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take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I was more concerned about the specifics of the words used. Clear that personalized insults are not accepted, but certain words tend to be. This pertains to Hell, where even there racism would not be accepted, but as I noted, there seems to be allowance for other insults that would tend to identify a group, and the one I noticed was "fucktard" several times.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I think you may be upset about what you perceive as a melding with "retard." Does it help if I tell you that I'm pretty sure it's a melding of "fuck" and "bastard"?
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Using "fuckstard" as an alternative to "fucktard" would clear up the confusion.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
Interesting Anglophone insults have so much to do with generative functions.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
quote:
no prophet posted:
I had never before seen the term beaner, nor have ever seen the term mojado before.
Mojado is basically Spanish for wet back. What good is a slur if the imtended victim doesnt understand it? Anglos say wet back to eachother and mojado at Spanish speakers.
Beaner is a very popular slur with school aged kids.
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Using "fuckstard" as an alternative to "fucktard" would clear up the confusion.
The former would seem acceptable, but would seem to a coining of new word.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I think you may be upset about what you perceive as a melding with "retard." Does it help if I tell you that I'm pretty sure it's a melding of "fuck" and "bastard"?
It could be either, couldn't it, unless we accept Beeswax Altar's neologism.
It does not seem as clear as the well-reported mistaking of the word "niggardly" for the offensive word due to variant spellings. But could someone thus use the term "nigfuck" and mean niggardly not the other word? Though following Beeswax Altar's idea, spell it "niggfuck" to ensure correct understanding. Will that do?
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Using "fuckstard" as an alternative to "fucktard" would clear up the confusion.
The former would seem acceptable, but would seem to a coining of new word.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I think you may be upset about what you perceive as a melding with "retard." Does it help if I tell you that I'm pretty sure it's a melding of "fuck" and "bastard"?
It could be either, couldn't it, unless we accept Beeswax Altar's neologism.
It does not seem as clear as the well-reported mistaking of the word "niggardly" for the offensive word due to variant spellings. But could someone thus use the term "nigfuck" and mean niggardly not the other word? Though following Beeswax Altar's idea, spell it "niggfuck" to ensure correct understanding. Will that do?
Fuggard [ˈfəgərd]
noun
A fucking stingy and fucking ungenerous person.
Example:
The government's latest social security plan is a fuggard's work.
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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
Could somebody explain beaner, please? I've never seen the term before, and it seems innocuous, except that shippies obviously feel that it isn't!
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
Could somebody explain beaner, please? I've never seen the term before, and it seems innocuous, except that shippies obviously feel that it isn't!
Please read here.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
This pertains to Hell, where even there racism would not be accepted
Racism is listed as something that may be considered as "jerkish behaviour" for Commandment One purposes, but then so are all the other -isms, trolling, flame-baiting and so on. And it's a Commandment that's aimed at frequent, ongoing behaviour rather than one-off posts.
As a Hellhost, I would not use my Powers to shut down anybody posting racist drivel (in the way that, say, an All Saints Host would shut down personal attacks). Firstly, it's far more fun to let the denizens have a new chew toy, and secondly whether such posts constitute sufficient ongoing jerkishness to warrant a C1 suspension is a call for the Admins, not me.
So in that sense, as far as I'm concerned racism would be accepted in Hell. The racist would certainly feel the burn of the brimstone, but they would not receive any official reprimand from me.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
This pertains to Hell, where even there racism would not be accepted
Racism is listed as something that may be considered as "jerkish behaviour" for Commandment One purposes, but then so are all the other -isms, trolling, flame-baiting and so on. And it's a Commandment that's aimed at frequent, ongoing behaviour rather than one-off posts.
As a Hellhost, I would not use my Powers to shut down anybody posting racist drivel (in the way that, say, an All Saints Host would shut down personal attacks). Firstly, it's far more fun to let the denizens have a new chew toy, and secondly whether such posts constitute sufficient ongoing jerkishness to warrant a C1 suspension is a call for the Admins, not me.
So in that sense, as far as I'm concerned racism would be accepted in Hell. The racist would certainly feel the burn of the brimstone, but they would not receive any official reprimand from me.
Thank-you for the clarification. I will either ignore or 'have at 'er ' depending on situation.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
I've always been uneasy about the use of 'fucktard' on this site, because I always assumed it related to 'retard'. Now, knowing that it doesn't, and that it relates to 'bastard', I don't see any issue at all with its use.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
I've always been uneasy about the use of 'fucktard' on this site, because I always assumed it related to 'retard'. Now, knowing that it doesn't, and that it relates to 'bastard', I don't see any issue at all with its use.
Same here. To me 'retard' is completely unacceptable.
I would never say 'fucktard' out loud, it sounds very odd in my lancashire accent! (More like fucked hard)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
The reason "fucktard" works better than "fuckstard" is that it gets most of its aural effect from the hard consonants. Throw an s in there and you soften it. I'm afraid people in the throes of rage are going to go for as many hard consonants as possible, and the neologism doesn't stand a chance.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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passer
Indigo
# 13329
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I think you may be upset about what you perceive as a melding with "retard." Does it help if I tell you that I'm pretty sure it's a melding of "fuck" and "bastard"?
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
I've always been uneasy about the use of 'fucktard' on this site, because I always assumed it related to 'retard'. Now, knowing that it doesn't, and that it relates to 'bastard', I don't see any issue at all with its use.
If that makes you happier, so be it. However, I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone anywhere who thinks it's anything but an abbreviation of fucking retard, and I assume LC was being kind, and offering a get-out to those who are sensitive about just how they insult....
The use of retard as an insult seems to be more common in the US than here in the UK, and it is linked into other words in the same way. I've seen the words nigtard and fagtard used as well, and the second part was certainly from retard not bastard. The word tard is also used as a free-standing insult, and that is most certainly an abbreviation of retard.
(ffs - trying to make insults and swearwords less offensive......)
Posts: 1289 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by passer:
However, I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone anywhere who thinks it's anything but an abbreviation of fucking retard
Well here's one such person. The idea that the insult (which I thought was unique to the Ship) 'fucktard' was derived from 'retard' had never occurred to me. In fact I think I always read it more as 'fucktart' to be honest, not that this makes much sense either!
[ 17. October 2011, 09:37: Message edited by: Gracious rebel ]
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Fancy a break beside the sea in Suffolk? Visit my website
Posts: 4413 | From: Suffolk UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Passer, it's kind of you--I think-- ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif) but I had no intention of being kind, I merely spoke what I believe to be true. Recall that the U.S. (let alone other places) has many subpopulations. "Retard" has never been a viable insult in mind. "Bastard" certainly is. Recall also that insults vary not only with location but with age group. It's possible that the people who use the Internet with most ease (and end up in your results) are also more likely to belong to the subgroup that uses "Retard" as an insult. That therefore proves nothing about the general population, which still includes a large number of trog and semi-troglodytes. Of which I am apparently one.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I've decided to update this thread after the Anne Coulter - Retard controversy that came up recently. Link here, re "Special Olympian Writes An Open Letter To American Commentator Ann Coulter Over Her "Retard" Tweets".
quote:
I'm a 30 year old man with Down syndrome who has struggled with the public's perception that an intellectual disability means that I am dumb and shallow. I am not either of those things, but I do process information more slowly than the rest of you. In fact it has taken me all day to figure out how to respond to your use of the R-word last night.
Maybe it seems okay when we don't actually have any who is a 'retard' as a shipmate? Just asking.
[ 25. October 2012, 18:02: Message edited by: no prophet ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
...we don't actually have any who is a 'retard' as a shipmate?
Just out of interest, how do you know that?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Maybe it seems okay when we don't actually have any who is a 'retard' as a shipmate? Just asking.
We have a few with dyslexia and various processing problems.
I'm one of them.
Retard? I prefer the terms 'late developer' which, pretty much means the same thing.
re·tard/riˈtärd/
Verb:
Delay or hold back in terms of progress, development, or accomplishment.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
...we don't actually have any who is a 'retard' as a shipmate?
Just out of interest, how do you know that?
Your point is well taken. If someone to whom the term might apply is on the ship, they might well avoid entering into any discussion of it. I thought that as soon as I read your post. As I attended to another and then returned here, my thoughts were more strongly in that direction. If I fully understand your point and its implications, it is that the use of the term "fucktard" would dissuade most persons insulted or offended by the "retard" implication as applied to self from ever entering into a discussion of it.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by passer:
Fair enough, but I've just done a Google search, and the outcome is unanimously in tune with this.
Certainly among people giving an etymology the urban dictionary leans nearly unanimously* toward "fucking retard." Whatever its ultimate origin, that's certainly how people are reading it.
______________
*I note that the person on the first page (when I visited) who vehemently denies it comes from "fucking retard" does not give an alternate etymology.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
Given its generally understood etymology, I believe it should not be used on the Ship.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
We have a double problem really; any term for intellectual disability eventually becomes an insult - because the condition is stigmatised. So pretty much all the terms in question were originally technical descriptions:
- cretinism was a term for a condition where someone is born with congenital thyroid problem leading to a learning disability amongst other problems
- moron was originally an ability category
- stupid is derived from stupor - a condition in which you don't respond to external stimuli
- retarded was a technical description - still in use in the states
- special education was an attempt to get away from older technical terms like "educational sub-normal"
- this list could go on for a long time ...
Eventually they can get so divorced from their origin that the people using the terms a) don't know what they originally meant and b) use them functionally to mean "person I don't like". That level of divorce from original meaning varies by geography and generation - so people react badly to a usage in a slightly unpredictable way. I have literally never heard anyone in the UK refer to anyone with a learning disability as a retard - even when they were trying to be insulting.
I have heard a receptionist in an LD service jokingly call a colleague retard, because she didn't know what it meant, and was very surprised when she was immediately jumped on by all the clinical staff in the vicinity going "you can't say that !"
The second problem is that prejudice against people who are less bright than you are is widely accepted. Which means people are very insulted if you suggest they are less bright than you. Which makes it an effective insult.
I work professionally with people with learning disabilities, I would never be comfortable with calling someone a retard, any more than I would call someone a nigger.
I would call someone a stupid cunt if I was angry enough with them - probably because I use stupid in that sentence in the sense of reckless or ignorant.
Fucktard I process as a variant of bastard really - in that it is an attempt to turn fuck into a label. Just seems more sayable than fuckster - a close cousin to fucker.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
We have a double problem really; any term for intellectual disability eventually becomes an insult - because the condition is stigmatised. So pretty much all the terms in question were originally technical descriptions
Yep - the latest derogatory term on the playground is 'Special' as in SEN.
As you say, it was always thus.
![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
The second problem is that prejudice against people who are less bright than you are is widely accepted. Which means people are very insulted if you suggest they are less bright than you. Which makes it an effective insult.
The interesting thing is, the delivery of the insult suggests some insecurity on the part of the insulter-- why lord it over someone who isn't as bright as you unless you want everyone to note the comparison?
So, to me the answer is not necessarily restricting words, but equipping those who are hit by them-- and those who want to speak up about them-- with the kind of tools they need to address them.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
It would help if society generally didn't see them as fair game too. If you are not very bright you are pretty much guaranteed to be poor and constantly harrassed to take shit jobs with crap conditions, because 'hard working families' are better than you.
If you have learning disabilities this government seems to think you are sponging and should live off the absolute minimum they can get away with because why should anyone else have to care - oh and you can fill in this million page form every five minutes to prove it.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Good point. I guess that would qualify as "tools" as well.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I'm interested in the report of the need to make "fuck" a label. Perhaps there are English dialect differences. It is rather common to hear someone call another a "dumb fuck", which here, is less offensive than the use of the word "cunt" in any circumstance, though "stupid cunt" or "fucking cunt", or the same with "slut" is about as bad as it gets here, though "motherfucker", while passé is probably as bad. I can imagine pretty near anyone saying "fuck" (we had at least one prime minister who did), but not the words cunt, slut, nigger or fucktard. But I am on a soap box again about this and should probably shut-up.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I don't think it is a need as such, just that that is the function of putting an ending onto the work.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
If I fully understand your point and its implications, it is that the use of the term "fucktard" would dissuade most persons insulted or offended by the "retard" implication as applied to self from ever entering into a discussion of it.
There is that, yes. But I was also wondering how, in a text-based medium, one could tell if someone else had a learning disability (short of them self-identifying as such). The chap you quoted said "I do process information more slowly than the rest of you", but on a bulletin board where the time taken to reply isn't really a factor that wouldn't show.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Doublethink nailed it.
I suppose "asshole" will remain safe, in PC terms? The Urban Dictionary translates it as someone who doesn't give other people respect.
Which I suppose makes assholes out of folks who use fucktard? Maybe also those who wish to universalise their own standards?
Yep, I'd say "asshole" is pretty safe.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
We've strayed a long way from what is acceptable on the Ship of Fools, into a general what is considered offensive discussion. That general discussion would be ideally suited to Purgatory, if anyone wants to start such a thread.
Please leave this thread for anyone who might still have questions or comments regarding our policy on the Ship.
Many thanks,
Alan
Ship of Fools Admin
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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