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Source: (consider it) Thread: Kids, and Church, again...
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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... Son #1 hates it. Son #2 would rather not be there. Daughter ignores it because she's 4 and can.

We've found a FE setup that's very relaxed and accepting and has short services, but son #1 on Sunday put his finders in his ears at the beginning of the service, where they stayed until the end. It's only "better" as far as he's concerned because it's shorter.

I have not the foggiest idea what to do. Our previous shack was liberal Anglo-Catholic and he was bored stiff - they gave him a job as a boat boy at one point but he hated and detested it. He's been taken by Mrs KLB to a lively free church down the road and he hated that - too noisy.

How the feck, folks, am I meant to attend to the baptismal promise to encourage him to be "faithful in public worship and come to confirmation", which can hardly be addressed by never going, when every time we go it seems to push him further away?

[ 27. November 2012, 10:43: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Evensong
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# 14696

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How old is he?

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a theological scrapbook

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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He's 8. The others are 6 and 4.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Of course. It's boring.

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LeRoc

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Don't they have Child Service/Sunday School/whatever you call it?

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Evensong
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Sorry. Deleted the previous post cos I reread your first one.

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a theological scrapbook

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Don't they have Child Service/Sunday School/whatever you call it?

My thread "well so that's that then" appears to have dropped off, but - erm - it's complicated.

The background is here

We now have two churches. There's the next parish's CofE church, which does have a Sunday School. The problem is that there are about half a dozen kids, ranging from about 4 to 14, and the input is therefore aimed at the bottom end of the range - the sort of thing I cruelly parody here

We also have a FE setup which works very well for Mrs KLB (who's never been totally comfortable in a standard CofE liturgical environment, whilst I'm not been comfortable with hymn/prayer sandwiches or, God help us, charismatic sing-songs - that's another issue altogether). The services here are a half hour Eucharist set in a context of meeting for a shared lunch. The eldest one copes better with this, because it's only half an hour, but he still claims boredom. We thought we'd landed on our feet the first time because he was happy to sit on a bean bag and watch the screens, but he's really not engagingand argues strongly against going.

Perhaps it's a phase. I was an atheist at his age.

[ 27. November 2012, 12:25: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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lily pad
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# 11456

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I cannot believe I am saying this, but give him a choice of four or five books - religious ones if you can find some he does like - and let him read during the worst bits.

His faith formation will happen at other times and you won't be engaging in a battle of wills that you can't win.

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Curiosity killed ...

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Mine started arguing strongly against going at around that age. She's even higher church than me for preference nowadays, now she's early 20s.

He's 8 and almost certainly up to discussing the options. Could you say that you want to be a member of a church because you believe in God and give him your reasons. Say that you've promised to introduce him, his brother and sister to God and as far as you are concerned, church is the best way to do so (and the Bible says so too)? Then talk to him about ways of doing that, asking what he thinks and believes and would find helpful? Even if he can't think of anything helpful, you might get him to agree to go to the best service for the family willingly for his brother and sister's sake. Or you might get him to try to engage in the least worse option.

And yes, I really get the too noisy - I've started a Purgatory thread about it, because I think it's a real issue.

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Lyda*Rose

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# 4544

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Karl, I don't quite know how this might help you, but here goes:

You, yourself, as you've expressed yourself on the Ship have never seemed too enthused with the whole church thing. (Forgive me if I missed some instances where you have.) It has been something of a bone of contention between you and your wife. I don't recall you ever making a report of anything about worship or church fellowship that has, as they say in the Mystery Worshipper reports, "made you feel happy to be a Christian". It all seems a matter of duty like your ""faithful in public worship and come to confirmation", and not in any sense a matter of joy.

If you think my observation is off-base, just ignore it. I only know you here, and I don't know the whole picture. But I'm thinking it might be time to rediscover your own "happy place" in worship. Maybe it will rub off on your kids.

My two cents.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Karl, I don't quite know how this might help you, but here goes:

You, yourself, as you've expressed yourself on the Ship have never seemed too enthused with the whole church thing. (Forgive me if I missed some instances where you have.) It has been something of a bone of contention between you and your wife. I don't recall you ever making a report of anything about worship or church fellowship that has, as they say in the Mystery Worshipper reports, "made you feel happy to be a Christian". It all seems a matter of duty like your ""faithful in public worship and come to confirmation", and not in any sense a matter of joy.

If you think my observation is off-base, just ignore it. I only know you here, and I don't know the whole picture. But I'm thinking it might be time to rediscover your own "happy place" in worship. Maybe it will rub off on your kids.

My two cents.

That's one of the reasons we moved to the FE setup that is so unnecessary according to some commentators here. You're right that I find little to enthuse me in most of what is on offer in the mainstream.

I wouldn't say it's a bone of contention between me and Mrs KLB; we've both struggled, albeit from different directions, with this.

It's hard to be enthusiastic about something when you're not entirely sure it's not a load of hokum.

[ 27. November 2012, 13:09: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Sioni Sais
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Our middle child was precocious in that she entered her teens at eight. Your son may well be the same.

I suspect that any kind of change in his attitude has to come from outside the church and, with the best will in the world, not from his parents either. Has he an aunt/uncle/cousin/friend/Godfather(!) between his age and yours who might be able to provide a bit of 1-2-1 that could persuade him that Sunday worship is worth persevering with?

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Lyda*Rose

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Karl:
quote:
It's hard to be enthusiastic about something when you're not entirely sure it's not a load of hokum.
This was the impression I got from you.

Best of luck in working it all out. [Votive]

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Moo

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# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by lily pad:
I cannot believe I am saying this, but give him a choice of four or five books - religious ones if you can find some he does like - and let him read during the worst bits.

His faith formation will happen at other times and you won't be engaging in a battle of wills that you can't win.

I think this is the right approach. If he likes the Narnia books, let him take them and read them.

Moo

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by lily pad:
His faith formation will happen at other times...

IMO, this is true of adults as well! I don't have children so this could be utter rubbish, but I think maybe I'd be more relaxed about the whole issue. As much as you can, hang out as a family with Christians in other, more social situations - perhaps then your kids will see something of how Christians relate with one another but in a positive context, rather than in the context of a dull church meeting.

Making a general point here, but I think it's important not to over-emphasise the couple of hours we might spend in a church service each week, at the expense of all the rest of the time we spend doing other things. Christianity is a whole-life thing, after all, right?

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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He takes books. He still kicks up a stink though. I think that from his viewpoint there's a principle involved, although I'm not quite sure what it is.

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Curiosity killed ...

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Have you asked him?

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by lily pad:
His faith formation will happen at other times...

IMO, this is true of adults as well! I don't have children so this could be utter rubbish, but I think maybe I'd be more relaxed about the whole issue. As much as you can, hang out as a family with Christians in other, more social situations - perhaps then your kids will see something of how Christians relate with one another but in a positive context, rather than in the context of a dull church meeting.
Except we don't. Not hanging around with Christians per se. I mean, we hang around with some people who happen to be Christians, but that's it really. I can't think, really, how we would do so.

quote:
Making a general point here, but I think it's important not to over-emphasise the couple of hours we might spend in a church service each week, at the expense of all the rest of the time we spend doing other things. Christianity is a whole-life thing, after all, right?
Yeah, but there's not really a specifically Christian way of boarding the loft, doing the shopping or transporting the kids to cubs, which is pretty much the sort of thing that fills up that "rest of the time."

He's terribly competitive. Even saying grace is a competition of sorts between him and his younger brother.

[ 27. November 2012, 14:35: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Autenrieth Road

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If you could design your own house church, what would you do?

What would you like your children to learn about God, or about being Christian, and what are ways that they can learn/practice/do those things?

[ 27. November 2012, 14:48: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]

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Angloid
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Our two daughters were brought up in a vicarage and had to come to church every Sunday whether we or they liked it or not. They never showed a great deal of enthusiasm although they were both admitted to communion (not confirmed) when they were about 8. Once they became teenagers we were happy to leave them at home. Now, aged 28 and 25, they are happily cynical non-attenders, although they are keen to come with us to Midnight Mass at Christmas.

Both of them however are keen to defend the Church, and Christianity, in conversation with their friends. They love the sitcom Rev because it resonates with their own experience. They have both got a strong sense of justice and solidarity with the underdog. Neither of them would describe themselves as 'committed Christians', but they understand the Gospel message a lot better than many such do. I'm not too bothered about their external observances and I dare to think that God isn't either.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
If you could design your own house church, what would you do?

What would you like your children to learn about God, or about being Christian, and what are ways that they can learn/practice/do those things?

What a very good question. I wish I knew the answers. I mean, I could easily enough design something that suits ME, but your second paragraph is far more challenging.

Perhaps to a certain extent Son #1's problem is that he's exactly like me - lots of knowledge about Christianity (and he has; always the one with the answers at a Sunday School) but lacking a certain enthusiasm. Me, I just think it should matter, somehow; he of course doesn't.

He's very introverted; we both are. I wonder if it's harder to enthuse introverts by means of the environment in which you place them?

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SvitlanaV2
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Karl

I understand that prior to the invention of the Sunday School, children were often not expected to attend church at all. Their parents were meant to supervise their Christian education at home. I don't know if that helps, but perhaps it's better to devote time to that rather than trying to get them to sit still in church.

You've said you don't hang out with Christians to do 'Christian' stuff. Does this mean you don't do small groups? Perhaps if the children saw adult Christians praying or discussing the Bible in a less threatening environment, i.e. at home, they'd find it more tolerable. It would seem like part of their family routine, rather than a disruption to their routine.

I hope you find a solution!

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
As much as you can, hang out as a family with Christians in other, more social situations...

Except we don't. Not hanging around with Christians per se. I mean, we hang around with some people who happen to be Christians, but that's it really. I can't think, really, how we would do so.
Oh, I just meant spending time with people who happen to be Christians. Helping each other out, having fun together, serving your community together. But I'd agree with SvitlanaV2 about small / cell / home groups being good as well.
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Making a general point here, but I think it's important not to over-emphasise the couple of hours we might spend in a church service each week, at the expense of all the rest of the time we spend doing other things. Christianity is a whole-life thing, after all, right?

Yeah, but there's not really a specifically Christian way of boarding the loft, doing the shopping or transporting the kids to cubs, which is pretty much the sort of thing that fills up that "rest of the time."
I kinda think there is a specifically Christian way of doing those things, especially when we're doing them with others. As we share our lives with friends (Christian and not) then we create opportunities to put into practice all that stuff about considering other people's needs before our own, and about being filled with joy, peace, gentleness, patience and so on.

IMO (and my experience, to some extent) this is especially the case when we get involved in a project with other people. This could be anything really; organising a Christmas party for your neighbourhood, doing a litter-pick, getting involved in a soup kitchen. Whatever fits your interests as a family and your available time!

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Angloid
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# 159

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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I kinda think there is a specifically Christian way of doing those things, especially when we're doing them with others. As we share our lives with friends (Christian and not) then we create opportunities to put into practice all that stuff about considering other people's needs before our own, and about being filled with joy, peace, gentleness, patience and so on.

I don't want to get hellish, and I see what you are getting at, but in what way are non-Christians likely to be any worse than Christians at all this? It isn't as if non-Christian parents, or secular schools, teach children to be selfish or miserable or aggressive or impatient.

The messages we get from our money-obsessed capitalist society are quite different, I agree, but we are all subjected to this and we all have ways of resisting them.

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Zacchaeus
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Has he just reached the point of rebellion - ie anything you tell him he has to do he won't want to?
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Possibly, Zach.

A lot of what people are talking about here - small groups, bible studies and stuff - are as alien to me as they are to him.

Is that odd?

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Zacchaeus
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I suoopse it depends on the Christiantradition you are used to. Some churches place much more emphasis on the need for these.

The reason that the churches with lots of children attract lots more children, is because any group is much more attractive to children, when there are lots of other chidlren there.

Many children moan at going to church when they see it as an adult activity to which they have to attend because parents do.

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Chorister

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I have no idea if they still exist, but there used to be kids' clubs attached to churches where they did fun things, with just a teeny bit of Christian input (say for 10 minutes) with the rest being given over to games, films, crafts etc. If such places still exist they might be worth checking out as more appropriate to his age group than a full-length service.

The other possibility, which many people would probably disapprove of, but your situation does appear to have reached crisis point, is to allow him to do something really special eg. a particular video game he likes, with earphones, but only when he is at church. So he can look forward to it each week. You can always do the 'God' bit informally at some other time at home, but he is physically with you when you do the family thing together in Church even if his mind isn't engaged on the same things as you.

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Pia
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Aargh... I can't keep on top of all the different threads in different places, so have just posted something in reply to you in the Purg thread about purpose of worship. I won't repeat myself here, then, but will just say that I have two children (10 and 12). One loves church; one doesn't. One asked to be baptised and confirmed; the other claims to be an atheist. One comes with me; the other stays at home. I figure that I'd be doing more harm than good by forcing a child who doesn't want to know to come with me.
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Pia
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(Not Purg, Eccles... And I left it too late to edit original post. [Roll Eyes] Don't be mean to the newbie; I'm still working it all out. [Paranoid] )
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Lamb Chopped
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Random thoughts. I have no idea whether any of these are any good. We're on our first kid going through this stage.

My eleven yo is complaining about boredom too. To him I am saying, "Well, yes, you're right and I don't blame you. But lots of things we do are boring, like teeth brushing, homework, etc. We do them because they're good for us in the long run." (Which means of course that you need to think out precisely why church is good for him/you'all, because that's the next question you'll get.) (and in this case, you can also add "because I have a promise to keep"--which is always a good thing for kids to see parents do)

My kid looks forward to eating out before or after church on Sunday, even if it's just a pint of chocolate milk from the mini-mart. So it's a bit more tolerable.

I've given him permission to quit children's Sunday school and all other children's stuff and come to the adult discussion group instead provided he is on his best behavior. He seems pretty pleased by this. (the adults seem to be charmed, which is sweet of them)

I've noticed the kids we tend to keep in our church are the ones who have real honest to goodness jobs that the church would fall apart without them doing (slight exaggeration,but still). Mine does altar prep and bulletin running off. My godson does the Powerpoint projector thingy. They've got an investment in the service, and they know that they would truly be missed if they weren't there to do it. And it's adult stuff, not kid-branded (like acolyting is in our denom). Of course, the trouble is getting the adults to allow such a level of responsibility to young ones...

We do the Christian life outside-of-church stuff too, when we visit sick people, help with paperwork, etc. and I try to remember to identify those occasions as Christian service so it doesn't just whoosh by him as another boring thing Mom and Dad do, I don't know why.

Last, we parent by sarcasm--so when he starts getting stroppy with me I roll my eyes and say, "Yes, I drag you here because I love to torture you EVERY SINGLE WEEK, it's just the delight of my heart, and my only regret is I haven't been able to find an even more effective way of making you miserable, oh dear..."

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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130

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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I kinda think there is a specifically Christian way of doing those things, especially when we're doing them with others...

I don't want to get hellish, and I see what you are getting at, but in what way are non-Christians likely to be any worse than Christians at all this? It isn't as if non-Christian parents, or secular schools, teach children to be selfish or miserable or aggressive or impatient.
Well, if there's any truth in this Christianity thing then I should think those who claim to follow it should, on the whole, be good people. People that others like to be around.

Obviously, Christians fail at this in myriad ways, but God is supposed to be at work transforming us, changing the way we thing, moulding us into people who exhibit love, joy, peace, patience etc. in the way we do things. And I was just suggesting that these characteristics can best be seen (to the extent that someone has them) when people are in close community with one another, doing the stuff of life together.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
I suoopse it depends on the Christiantradition you are used to. Some churches place much more emphasis on the need for these.

The reason that the churches with lots of children attract lots more children, is because any group is much more attractive to children, when there are lots of other chidlren there.

Many children moan at going to church when they see it as an adult activity to which they have to attend because parents do.

Yes; alien is possibly the wrong word. Unappealing might be a better one. I've loathed extempore prayer for as long as I've been familiar with it.

I'm drawing towards the conclusion that he's 8 going on 14 - there's a lot of "why should I? It's not fair!" about it. TBH we're getting the same challenging of bedtime.

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Pia
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I meant to add to my post, Karl, that I only started (re-started, that is, after a very long absence) going to church when my two were 8 and 10, so this was not something that they had always done and always seen their parents doing. Also, my other half is vehemently atheist. This has conditioned my attitude towards not making the older one come if she doesn't want to - although I always give her the opportunity to come if she wants to.
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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Well, if there's any truth in this Christianity thing then I should think those who claim to follow it should, on the whole, be good people. People that others like to be around.

Obviously, Christians fail at this in myriad ways, but God is supposed to be at work transforming us, changing the way we thing, moulding us into people who exhibit love, joy, peace, patience etc. in the way we do things. And I was just suggesting that these characteristics can best be seen (to the extent that someone has them) when people are in close community with one another, doing the stuff of life together.

Well yes, I said I didn't want to get hellish and I agree with you really. The Gospel should be a transformative power in our lives. I'm just wary of the sort of exclusive attitude (not yours, I hasten to add) which leads some Christians only to associate with fellow-believers and, for example, seek out a 'Christian' plumber rather than a good one.

To relate this to the OP, it would be better for children to relate to people from all sorts of backgrounds and, from a perspective of the Christian values instilled by parents, to discern the good and bad in everyone. Whether part of that instilling consists of enforced attendance at worship, or just letting them absorb your values from the way you relate to them and live as a family, is what we are discussing. Our daughters have been able to see that prayer and worship are important to us and so they respect that; it may be that they are drawn back to formal involvement in the church or it may not. It's in God's hands.

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I'm just wary of the sort of exclusive attitude (not yours, I hasten to add) which leads some Christians only to associate with fellow-believers and, for example, seek out a 'Christian' plumber rather than a good one.

Oh yeah, absolutely! I was trying to emphasise the community aspect (as opposed to always doing things just with the family), not meaning that Christians should spend as much of their lives as possible in ghettos of the faithful. Got to get the yeast into the dough, right?!

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Ruudy
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I understand that prior to the invention of the Sunday School, children were often not expected to attend church at all. Their parents were meant to supervise their Christian education at home.

Wow. In what culture? And where did you learn this? I have never heard this before.

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Zacchaeus
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Older congregation members have told me thev same thing. Children did not attend church until they could sit still and not make any noise. Under 5's would never go...

One said she and her husband would attend different services until the children were old enough.

Also children often attended Sunday school in the afternoon instead.

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shamwari
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Sunday Scools when they were first started were never meant to be Christian indoctrination sessions.

They were opportunities for children cut off from all education to be given the basics.

In a Christian context.

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Zacchaeus
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quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
Sunday Scools when they were first started were never meant to be Christian indoctrination sessions.

They were opportunities for children cut off from all education to be given the basics.

In a Christian context.

I'm not going back that far - the time I am talking about Sunday achool was definitley the place that children had their christian education away from church
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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And how much of this is the reason that in the main, when those children grew up, they didn't remain churchgoers?

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deano
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Bribe him!

One or two pounds if he takes it like a man and goes without moaning. Let him take books to read or colour in.

Just as long as he's there the words will go in.

I think most of us have to accept that our sons will stop going at some point when they are too cool - 13 to 17 or so. But if the words have sunk in, then they might return when they are ready.

One woman at our church doesn't force her 15 year old son to go except for Christmas day and Easter Day. It's a compromise that keeps the threads stretched but intact.

My lad is 10 and he's exactly the same Karl, so you are not alone. They get bored and to be frank, for a young boy it is boring, and it always has been boring, and I reckon it's worth a couple of quid for them.

Or you could just tell him he's going anyway, and when he complains that it is boring, tell him it's character building. They love that!

Seriously, try bribery. I'm not joking.

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lily pad
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With the Baby Boom and all that, it made sense to gather the children together for Christian Education. Giving over responsibility for that aspect of life did make a difference in whether or not faith was "caught".

Now that many churches have had a period of time with very few children, the door is wide open for more creative looks at faith formation. The home is still ground zero. Anything else should be extra.

If you are engaging a competitive child in a discussion where winning means staying home or being miserable at church, he will win.

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Jengie jon

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They stopped staying on when we started providing Sunday School during worship to entertain them. They never made the transistion to staying into the main service all the way through.

Jengie

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
They stopped staying on when we started providing Sunday School during worship to entertain them. They never made the transistion to staying into the main service all the way through.

Jengie

It's a real bind isn't it? At some point we seem to have to say "and now it's time for you to do the normal boring church."

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Horseman Bree
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for a suggestion about attitude.

Try "A better idea than youth ministry"

Is there anyone who regularly attends who might pay some attention to the boy? Listen to him, at least, or in some way make him feel "wanted"? Or is there someone who would feel better if the boy paid attention to him/her? This might involve some communication outside "church" time, such as taking the bulletin (and doughnuts!) around to a shut-in, a person that your boy feels some connection to by his own choice. Or your boy could try videoing the service for said shut-in, which would teach some skills as well.

...or whatever. Scope for some creative discussion among the adults.

Try to give him some role that he feels he has helped to choose.

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:


A lot of what people are talking about here - small groups, bible studies and stuff - are as alien to me as they are to him.

Is that odd?

I'm not an expert on small groups. It's just that, since engagement with the life and work of faith goes against so much of the wider culture, parents need to provide a lot of imput to make the Christian faith and the worshipping life seem particularly meaningful to their children. And the inclincation to give up is even stronger for boys and young men than for girls and women.

The old-fashioned idea that 'it takes a whole village to raise a child' probably means it's very helpful to have a support network of strong Christians of both sexes that the children feel close to, people they see consciously trying to follow Jesus in every day life.

I don't have kids, but in my denomination it's clear to see that there are going to be serious problems in the future due to the lack of children coming through.

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L'organist
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KLB - I feel for you. Went through a bit of the same with one of mine. And problem was not helped by other parent only coming once in a blue moon.

He'd had a job as a sidesman - liked it but grew out of it, basically decided it was all too dull. Loathed the supposedly child-friendly family service in particular (in fact both did) but would go to Matins.

Another problem was that most of his friends were at a rugby session that he wanted to go to.

I asked if there was any one thing about any of the services that he liked: said the music - some of the hymns, never the setting, but almost without exception liked choral music.

Cut a long saga short: did a deal that he could do choral evensong - either at own church or elsewhere - if he preferred or go to 8am said BCP. He tried both and tended to do the 8am BCP in the summer and evensong in the winter.

The big thing was that he was able to do the sport with mates.

Now older, he's still far more into the music than what some might think "the message".

But perhaps that is something for another debate: is the modern trend towards congregational music throughout and crappy choruses ignoring/not catering for those who find God through music?

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North East Quine

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quote:
Originally posted by Ruudy:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I understand that prior to the invention of the Sunday School, children were often not expected to attend church at all. Their parents were meant to supervise their Christian education at home.

Wow. In what culture? And where did you learn this? I have never heard this before.
I believe this was quite normal in Scotland pre World War One. Fathers went to the morning service, while the mother stayed at home with the children. Mothers went to the evening service, leaving the children at home with the father. It was part of the reason churches had two Sunday services.
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North East Quine

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Is there something he could do? We try to get boys involved in operating the computery-thing at the back with all the switches for the sound system and which which projects the words of the hymns onto the screen. (She said, vaguely) We have a rota; it was a 13 year old boy last week, and we have slightly younger boys on the rota.
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