Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Blindfold boy picks new Pope
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
A new leader for the Coptic church has been chosen by a blindfold boy picking a name out of a bowl. It's not quite as random as it sounds; three candidates had been shortlisted, and this final action is to ensure that the selection rests in God's hands. I'm not quite sure what to make of it; part of me is appalled, and part of me quite likes the idea. I wonder if the CoE could use this to chose the new Archbish?
-------------------- Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
Acts 1:21-26 describes a similar process for choosing a replacement for Judas.
Moo
-------------------- Kerygmania host --------------------- See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I like the idea. They can 'blame' God for the consequences!
-------------------- Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I note the person who placed the boy's hand into the bowl - directly onto one of the plastic balls - is the person who won.
I am being too cynical ?
-------------------- All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Anybody who has followed FIFA World Cup draws knows this sort of thing is easily manipulated.
-------------------- I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Is there a Nobel Prize for Religious Absurdities? We'll see him in Oslo for sure!
-------------------- She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I think its a brilliant idea; all appointments should be made in this way!
-------------------- 'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe' Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Doublethink: I note the person who placed the boy's hand into the bowl - directly onto one of the plastic balls - is the person who won.
I am being too cynical ?
Too cynical, Doublethink. Tawadros, who was chosen, was the assistant of Bishop Pachomius, who presided at the selection.
And while it's true that Pachomius seemed to guide the boy's hand to one ball, the balls all looked pretty much identical. And if the boy had decided to pick another one, there wasn't much Pachomius could do about it.
Not in front of that crowd, anyway ...
-------------------- "What is broken, repair with gold."
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Robert Armin: part of me is appalled, and part of me quite likes the idea.
Could you unpack the reasons for each reaction?
-------------------- ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Appalled - choosing a church leader should involve long hard thought (as well as prayer). Spiritual judgement should be used in weighing up who is the best person for the job.
Likes - this way would get rid of a lot of the politics that stinks in the church even more than it does in the wider world.
-------------------- Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
I am not appalled by this practice at all. In fact I think that sortition ought to be practised more widely within both the church and secular democracy.
Obviously sortition has to work hand in hand with the drawing up of a shortlist of credible candidates, but this method will undermine the potential for backroom deals and manipulation. There is also something honest about it from a worldview perspective, because it hands the final decision over to whatever you think is the basis of the workings of reality, be it luck, God or fate.
Also, it's thoroughly biblical (even NT biblical), as has already been pointed out.
Interestingly, sortition was central to the functioning of ancient Athenian democracy.
-------------------- You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
I guess it's better than having a blind church ask a blind government to choose.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Robert Armin: A new leader for the Coptic church has been chosen ... I wonder if the CoE could use this to chose the new Archbish?
As Chair of Governors of a comprehensive I've headed some 30-40 interview panels over the years. Usually you can get down to a choice of among two or three candidate pretty quickly. Then the long discussion begins, mostly over how does candidate A's greater strength in area X weigh against B's in Y. I can't think of an occasion when a decision we made was in any way really objective. I think drawing lots would have been fine when a shortlist had revealed people who might all, in different ways, have been good.
-------------------- "controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
A few years ago I was in a medical ethics seminar, and we were working through the standard "which of these 5 patients gets the kidney transplant?" exercise. At the end of the exercise, the facilitator cited a study which had shown that in real-life cases, people found it easiest to cope if they were told that they had been chosen (or not chosen) by lot. The explanation seemed to be that at least they had no-one to blame - including themselves - for the decision.
Unfortunately I can't remember the details of the study, so feel free to take this story with a pinch of salt.
-------------------- "What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Robert Armin: Appalled - choosing a church leader should involve long hard thought (as well as prayer). Spiritual judgement should be used in weighing up who is the best person for the job.
1. Then the Eleven choosing a replacement for Judas Iscariot should appall you as well.
2. They did use hard thought and prayer to pick the three finalists. Why do you dismiss this?
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Moo: Acts 1:21-26 describes a similar process for choosing a replacement for Judas.
Moo
The Amish and other Old Order groups have traditionally chosen church leaders by lots. The thinking is that the Holy Spirit is the guide, not factions within the church or the limitations of human thinking.
I wasn't raised to be comfortable with the idea that leadership is chosen by lots, and I certainly am not comfortable with the idea that leadership is chosen by votes, either. . .
. . .but that's my background, not the way the entire world works.
There are faith groups in the world with many beliefs about discernment that don't fit neatly into a dominant, western mindset.
It seems a bit presumptuous to judge them for their spiritual beliefs because they seem different.
I've had direct contact with a sub-set of the Coptic Church. I don't find them to be any less thoughtful or rational than the rest of us.
God works in many ways, and we don't always get the memo which covers people who aren't like us.
sabine
-------------------- "Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Seems as good a method as any.
-------------------- Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible. -Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mousethief: quote: Originally posted by Robert Armin: Appalled - choosing a church leader should involve long hard thought (as well as prayer). Spiritual judgement should be used in weighing up who is the best person for the job.
1. Then the Eleven choosing a replacement for Judas Iscariot should appall you as well.
2. They did use hard thought and prayer to pick the three finalists. Why do you dismiss this?
1) Maybe "appalled" was too strong a word, in which case I apologise for it. However, while I am drawn to this method in some ways, in others it makes me uneasy. (And I've heard several sermons in the past that stated that the Eleven were not trusting God when they picked Matthias - they should have waited for God to reveal his choice, which was Paul. I've never been convinced by that line of thinking, but it is possible.)
2) What makes you think I am dismissing the hard work and prayer that went into selecting the three finalists? I did not mean to give that impression; again, my apologies if I worded myself badly.
-------------------- Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Robert Armin: [QUOTE] Maybe "appalled" was too strong a word, in which case I apologise for it. However, while I am drawn to this method in some ways, in others it makes me uneasy. (And I've heard several sermons in the past that stated that the Eleven were not trusting God when they picked Matthias - they should have waited for God to reveal his choice, which was Paul. I've never been convinced by that line of thinking, but it is possible.)
Huh. I always heard they used lots because the Holy Spirit hadn't descended yet.
-------------------- Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing. --Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Interesting stuff. As a final selection step between - by human reckoning - equally good candidates, why not?
I really know far too little about the Copts. Does anybody know how small-o orthodox they are?
-------------------- They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Why not use it for choosing the Catholic popes? Put in a paper for every cardinal.* We don't know for sure what goes on behind closed doors, but I think it is very safe to assume that political positioning does go on, as most of this takes place before "Extra Omnes!" anyway. It would certainly give a sporting chance to the extra-European world.
(I would be open to this for choosing my denom's bishops too, FWIW.)
*Yes, I know this would eliminate the possibility for a non-cardinal to be chosen, but I have resigned myself to being realistic. [ 04. November 2012, 23:21: Message edited by: Olaf ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Circuit Rider
Ship's Itinerant
# 13088
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by fletcher christian: I think its a brilliant idea; all appointments should be made in this way!
I think that's how our bishop makes our appointments.
-------------------- I felt my heart strangely warmed ... and realised I had spilt hot coffee all over myself.
Posts: 715 | From: Somewhere in the Heart of Dixie | Registered: Oct 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by IngoB: Interesting stuff. As a final selection step between - by human reckoning - equally good candidates, why not?
I really know far too little about the Copts. Does anybody know how small-o orthodox they are?
We call them monophysites but they reject the term. I have also heard the term miaphysites. They believe Christ had one nature that was somehow both divine and human.
ETA: They are in communion with the Ethiopians and the Armenians. [ 05. November 2012, 00:08: Message edited by: mousethief ]
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mousethief: We call them monophysites but they reject the term. I have also heard the term miaphysites. They believe Christ had one nature that was somehow both divine and human.
ETA: They are in communion with the Ethiopians and the Armenians.
I've seen the term "Non-Chalcedonian" used for them.
They Copts are also in communion with the the Syriac Orthodox and the Malankara Orthodox of India.
quote: Originally posted by IngoB: Does anybody know how small-o orthodox they are?
You might be interested in this link: Vatican Website: Dialogue with the Oriental Orthodox Churches. It includes the common Declaration of Pope Paul VI and Coptic Pope Shenouda III from 1973.
-------------------- “But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance; we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
One of the more interested if more-ignored ecumenical initiatives of the past 30 years has been the Orthodox-Oriental Orthodox dialogue, with the 1989 Chambésy declaration, where they apparently have come to agreement on Christological questions (very little youtube attention to anti-Eutychian sentiments, I find). They use the term families rather than churches or denominations, an interesting approach, given (generally) Orthodox totalitarianism in ecclesiological matters.
Those shipmates who have looked at my posts are aware that I have long argued for the Coptic approach in elections, as the politicking of episcoopal elections in Canada and the US and the arcane committee work of the CoE have simply adopted secular selection models without using them creatively or rarely to any really useful result.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
One of the more interested if more-ignored ecumenical initiatives of the past 30 years has been the Orthodox-Oriental Orthodox dialogue, with the 1989 Chambésy declaration, where they apparently have come to agreement on Christological questions (very little youtube attention to anti-Eutychian sentiments, I find). They use the term families rather than churches or denominations, an interesting approach, given (generally) Orthodox totalitarianism in ecclesiological matters.
Those shipmates who have looked at my posts are aware that I have long argued for the Coptic approach in elections, as the politicking of episcoopal elections in Canada and the US and the arcane committee work of the CoE have simply adopted secular selection models without using them creatively or rarely to any really useful result.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Seems like a fine way to pick the next leader. Human intelligence and prayer takes the selection so far, and then the final decision is left to - depending on one's way of looking at it - 'blind chance' or 'the hand of God'. And presumably the Coptic Church believes that the hand of God trumps blind chance!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Anselmina: And presumably the Coptic Church believes that the hand of God trumps blind chance!
Or maybe they just believe that blind chance trumps human intelligence and prayer...
--Tom Clune
-------------------- This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by tclune: quote: Originally posted by Anselmina: And presumably the Coptic Church believes that the hand of God trumps blind chance!
Or maybe they just believe that blind chance trumps human intelligence and prayer...
--Tom Clune
If only human intelligence and prayer were primary factors in our selection processes, we would be far better ahead, but... The Copitc approach at least has some scriptural precedence.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Robert Armin: And I've heard several sermons in the past that stated that the Eleven were not trusting God when they picked Matthias - they should have waited for God to reveal his choice, which was Paul. I've never been convinced by that line of thinking, but it is possible.
On what did the preachers base this assertion? I can't think of anything in the Bible that would particularly support it. It seems to me like merely personal speculation on the part of the preachers.
-------------------- God = love. Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Malik - I agree with you completely. I think part of the reasoning was that we don't hear of Matthias doing anything afterwards. And that Paul was "apostle to the gentiles" and there can only be twelve apostles. It didn't convince me, but I used to hear this line from several non-Conformist preachers and, more recently, ++Sentamu.
-------------------- Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
++Sentamu! That's interesting.
-------------------- God = love. Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by tclune: quote: Originally posted by Anselmina: And presumably the Coptic Church believes that the hand of God trumps blind chance!
Or maybe they just believe that blind chance trumps human intelligence and prayer...
--Tom Clune
Haha!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
The Moravians used cleromancy for a variety of church purposes, icluding the choice of marriage partners.
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
Forgot to mention that Wesley, who owed much to the Moravians, also used the casting of lots.
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by IngoB: Does anybody know how small-o orthodox they are?
Monophysites rejected Leo's Tome at Chalcedon, and fall foul of the Definition of Chalcedon ("without confusion, without change") and the Athanasian Creed ("confusion of substance").
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Robert Armin: I wonder if the CoE could use this to chose the new Archbish?
Hint: mosey along to the Circus and you can find a thread to do just that.
-------------------- Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
According to the New York Times, it is not the final pick by a child but the selection of the three finalists that leaves some Copts wishing for reform. Any candidate who was "controversial," it reported, was quickly eliminated. It sounds as though the three finalists were therefore bland mediocrities. On the other hand, the chosen pope wants the church to get out of playing politics as a corporate body, leaving political action up to a membership seeking to reach out to form a coalition with their secularist Muslim neighbors. This approach represents a change from prior practice, which led the church to official support of Mubarek-- and left her at the mercy of all his foes when he was ousted. So I didn't find the article altogether coherent.
-------------------- Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
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