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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Heaven is real and I saw it, scientist says.
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
"Heaven is real and I saw it, scientist says." This persistent story, coming up again on Yahoo this morning, is common enough. I'm sure everyone on the Ship has run into stories like it. I can't recall any recent discussion though.
quote:
Dr. Eben Alexander, a Harvard neurosurgeon, nearly died four years ago when a ferocious E. coli meningitis infection attacked his brain and plunged him deep into a week-long coma. Brain scans showed his entire cortex -- the parts of the brain that give us consciousness, thought, memory and understanding -- was not functioning.
But, as the story goes, he was alive and conscious the whole time:
quote:
I was just a speck of awareness in kind of a dark, murky environment, in roots or vessels or something. And I seemed to be there for a very long time -- I would say years.
"I was rescued by this beautiful, spinning, white light that had a melody, an incredibly beautiful melody with it that opened up into a bright valley," he added, "an extremely verdant valley with blossoming flowers and a just incredible, rich, ultra-real world of indescribable complexity."
Alexander said there was a young woman who soared across time and space with him on a butterfly wing and gave him a message to take back from Heaven.
"She looked at me, and this was with no words, but the concepts came straight into mind: You are love; you are cherished; there's nothing you have to fear; there's nothing you can do wrong," he said.
God was there as a vast presence of love, Alexander said, and Alexander understood God through an orb of brilliant light.
Of course there are skeptics. He always believed that such things were hallucinations, but is now convinced otherwise:
quote:
Alexander isn't fazed at all by the skeptics. He was one, too.
Now he has "proof of Heaven," he said.
"For me, it's become clear that the best way to look at it is to turn it around and realize that consciousness exists in a much richer form, free and independent of the brain, which has everything to do with the eternity of our souls and the fact that our awareness, our consciousness, our soul, our spirit, does not depend on the existence of the brain in the physical universe. In fact, it's freed up to a much richer knowing when we're outside."
How do you react to this? Does the fact that he is a Harvard neurosurgeon and former skeptic make him more credible?
To me it all makes perfect sense.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
"Heaven is real and I saw it, scientist says."
quote:
Deep in coma, his brain infected so badly only the most primitive parts were working, Alexander claimed he experienced something extraordinary: a journey to Heaven.
What an odd word to use.
quote:
How do you react to this?
That it's rather a sad colorless world we inhabit and that a confused allegiance to some weird notion of 'science' is largely to blame.
And good on the guy for not letting the skeptics get him down!
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It makes perfect scientific sense, yes. His failure of judgement doesn't.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Apart from one or two stories in the more - shall we say exotic - reaches of the Christian press, isn't it rather odd that nobody ever seems to come back from a near-death experience* having been in Hell?
*(And while it's lovely that this lovely man has had this lovely experience, we should note that however nearly dead he was, he wasn't actually dead.)
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I tend to believe stories about near death experiences because:
a) they often convert sceptics
b) they are not relative to one's religion - people don't see Jesus, Muhammad etc. which they would expect to see
c) the various stages through which they progress is consistent
Nice comment. I feel the same way.
I don't know how true your a) is, but it may be.
Reading accounts like these, I have often been struck by b). Sometimes they do reference Jesus or others, but not usually. In fact if they do, and especially if they get very detailed "doctrinal" information, I tend to be skeptical about the experience itself.
Your c) is especially interesting. Studies seem to indicate that the experiences are pretty consistent regardless of culture. To me this makes them more trustworthy.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Apart from one or two stories in the more - shall we say exotic - reaches of the Christian press, isn't it rather odd that nobody ever seems to come back from a near-death experience* having been in Hell?
*(And while it's lovely that this lovely man has had this lovely experience, we should note that however nearly dead he was, he wasn't actually dead.)
Fair comment. You never know what would have happened after these scenes if the person had actually died.
The scenario in my own denomination's idea of the afterlife is that everyone receives a similarly joyful welcome to the next life, regardless of their quality or faith. It is only later, once the person is accustomed to the life there, that they decide what they want to spend their time doing and who they wish to be with. Their choices may be better or worse, and they then gradually move into a happier or less happy state accordingly.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
The scenario in my own denomination's idea of the afterlife is that everyone receives a similarly joyful welcome to the next life, regardless of their quality or faith. It is only later, once the person is accustomed to the life there, that they decide what they want to spend their time doing and who they wish to be with. Their choices may be better or worse, and they then gradually move into a happier or less happy state accordingly.
I would expect (almost) everyone's choices would be better after experiencing God's love and presence first hand.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Haven't there been documentaries on people who went to hell and back? As well as those who went to heaven?
Can't remember its name, but I saw a documentary on the effects of people passing out at multiple G-force on centrifugal machines and how these partly replilcated religious near-death experiences. It included accounts of religious and non-religious people each of whom, it could be argued, experienced the very thing they anticipated according to their spirituality. Though there were definite similarities in each case. At least one of those accounts, IIRC, involved a man who had a very negative and hellish experience during his NDE.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Haven't there been documentaries on people who went to hell and back? As well as those who went to heaven?
Can't remember its name, but I saw a documentary on the effects of people passing out at multiple G-force on centrifugal machines and how these partly replilcated religious near-death experiences. It included accounts of religious and non-religious people each of whom, it could be argued, experienced the very thing they anticipated according to their spirituality. Though there were definite similarities in each case. At least one of those accounts, IIRC, involved a man who had a very negative and hellish experience during his NDE.
Yes, I've heard about people who saw 'hell' when they had their near-death experience. I imagine that some who saw that probably wouldn't want to admit it? Maybe they trot out the 'come into the light' stuff just to save face.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I would expect (almost) everyone's choices would be better after experiencing God's love and presence first hand.
Good point. That would seem to be born out by the doctor's story.
On the other hand there's no accounting for the human response to experience. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Exactly, it's ALL psychologically explicable, there is no reason to invoke anything else but brain chemistry.
While I'm away my Mission Shaped Community will play tomorrow with Ian McCormack's DVD, the guy who tripped on box-jelly venom.
Sigh.
An evil and adulterous generation.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I would expect (almost) everyone's choices would be better after experiencing God's love and presence first hand.
Right. Look at how thoughtful the Disciples were...
--Tom Clune
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This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I tend to believe stories about near death experiences because:
a) they often convert sceptics
If some single cause were shown to be responsible for most apostasy would you tend to believe that cause was objective evidence of the falseness of religion?
b) they are not relative to one's religion - people don't see Jesus, Muhammad etc. which they would expect to see
Which could also be evidence for the more conventional scientific explanation that such experiences reflect the order in which brain activities tail off. The language centres have already shut down - we're into primitive level confabulation here.
c) the various stages through which they progress is consistent
Which would also be the case if they were due to some biological process.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
The scenario in my own denomination's idea of the afterlife is that everyone receives a similarly joyful welcome to the next life, regardless of their quality or faith. It is only later, once the person is accustomed to the life there, that they decide what they want to spend their time doing and who they wish to be with. Their choices may be better or worse, and they then gradually move into a happier or less happy state accordingly.
A bit like ordinary life then! Alas, here not all are welcomed.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
Interesting how everyone's expectations of eternity involve Alpine valleys and nubile young women. Even skeptics, it seems.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Exactly, it's ALL psychologically explicable, there is no reason to invoke anything else but brain chemistry.
While I'm away my Mission Shaped Community will play tomorrow with Ian McCormack's DVD, the guy who tripped on box-jelly venom.
Sigh.
An evil and adulterous generation.
I've never heard of Ian McCormack so I Googled him and I must say that the most impressive thing about his story is that he refuses to make money from it and his book is not copyrighted.
Very refreshing to read that. He could have made a fortune.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
I read this story last week, and the doctor, previously a complete skeptic, has had his life and perspective of reality totally changed by this NDE. The arguement often used against the reality of NDE's is that, however much the victim's brain appeared to ne non-functional, he couldn't have been dead, as he came back. There's a lot more to discover here.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Haven't there been documentaries on people who went to hell and back?
I have been to Barrow in Furness and back and no one made a documentary.
Fly Safe, Pyx_e
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Interesting how everyone's expectations of eternity involve Alpine valleys and nubile young women. Even skeptics, it seems.
There are no nubile young women in my afterlife fantasies (except me, of course ). I think you are saying 'everyone' when you mean heterosexual men, no?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
There are no nubile young women in my afterlife fantasies (except me, of course ). I think you are saying 'everyone' when you mean heterosexual men, no?
I'm sorry, I was being cynical.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Apart from one or two stories in the more - shall we say exotic - reaches of the Christian press, isn't it rather odd that nobody ever seems to come back from a near-death experience* having been in Hell?
Lucifer masquerades as an angel of light. I'd be very suspicious of any angelic being who told me I can do no wrong because it is a lie. And we know whose native language that is.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
There are no nubile young women in my afterlife fantasies (except me, of course ). I think you are saying 'everyone' when you mean heterosexual men, no?
I'm sorry, I was being cynical.
Your cynicism was rather exclusive ....
(And I was teasing)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Lucifer masquerades as an angel of light. I'd be very suspicious of any angelic being who told me I can do no wrong because it is a lie. And we know whose native language that is.
Yes we do. Bloody French.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Interesting how everyone's expectations of eternity involve Alpine valleys and nubile young women. Even skeptics, it seems.
My expectations include a lot of queuing, form filling and finding you're in the wrong place. After all they can't just let anyone in!
[ 25. October 2012, 16:07: Message edited by: que sais-je ]
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
Whether he's the most eminent scientist in the world or the scrapings out of a petri dish, it's irrelevant as he's not applying scientific methods to this question. He says he experienced something, therefore life after death. Not even the slightest gesture towards scientific investigation, or even the elimination of other possible explanations for his experience. It's the very definition of anecdote.
This isn't intended as personal criticism - I fully appreciate that NDEs can have a profound effect on people - but his description should carry no more weight than any other person. As it happens, Kevin Nelson's book The God Impulse is a very good explanation of why NDEs are as they are, including (as Anselmina says) a narrowing of vision under extreme conditions, and it also touches on the nature of spiritual experiences and why people react so strongly to them.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Haven't there been documentaries on people who went to hell and back?
I have been to Barrow in Furness and back and no one made a documentary.
Fly Safe, Pyx_e
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[qb] I tend to believe stories about near death experiences because:
a) they often convert sceptics
If some single cause were shown to be responsible for most apostasy would you tend to believe that cause was objective evidence of the falseness of religion?
...
(I can't speak for Leo)
But my tentative hypothesis on hearing a claim would be*.
a) They are lying 40% chance
b) Simple wishful thinking 40% chance
c) More complex random delusion 5% chance
d) More complex systematic delusion 5% chance
d) Actual primitive death response 5% chance
f) [X files theme] 5% chance
If I found they were a sceptic who, then changed significantly for longer than a joke/experiment that would rule out (a), depending on the nature of the 'conversion' (b), and multiple occurrences (c), at which point (f) is looking quite likely, and ones where you can say you believe the person, although have a different explaination (c?d?ef) are almost certain.
So in a sense, yes. It would be better (but still weak) evidence. To some extent you see it on TV. When someone with well known atheistic views says 'no evidence of Abraham=>doubts', one is inclined to think they didn't look too hard or think about what they'd expect to find**.
When someone with well known Abrahamic beliefs says that, one has questions.
*using Feynman's model for beliefs, and using what 'feels' right for percentages.
**Of course if they said 'we now know everyone who lived in Ur, and no Abraham' that would require thinking.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I read this story last week, and the doctor, previously a complete skeptic, has had his life and perspective of reality totally changed by this NDE.
"Complete skeptic" is a severe overstatement, if this review of the book is accurate:
quote:
Alexander claims to have been waffling on the matter of his faith before the meningitis. But the book reveals that he's always been a devout or at least a searching Christian. Long before he found himself in the "God-soaked and love-filled darkness" of his coma, Alexander took his family to church and made his children pray every night before they went to bed.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
"Complete skeptic" is a severe overstatement, if this review of the book is accurate:
quote:
Alexander claims to have been waffling on the matter of his faith before the meningitis. But the book reveals that he's always been a devout or at least a searching Christian. Long before he found himself in the "God-soaked and love-filled darkness" of his coma, Alexander took his family to church and made his children pray every night before they went to bed.
I think things like this are usually crap piles, but I think you are drawing unwarranted conclusions. People who are very iffy in their faith might still go through the motions and make their children go through the motions, in part in a desperate attempt to find that whatever-it-is that they feel is missing.
Indeed they may be even more fervent about dotting all the i's and crossing all the t's of their physical faith rituals, just because the emotional or spiritual or whatever-you-want-to-call-it side of their faith is lacking.
What you quote proves nothing about how resolved his faith was.
[ 26. October 2012, 02:48: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
The only conclusion I was suggesting was that regularly attending church and encouraging nightly prayers are not behaviors one would normally associate with a "complete skeptic", as PaulTH* described him.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Apart from one or two stories in the more - shall we say exotic - reaches of the Christian press, isn't it rather odd that nobody ever seems to come back from a near-death experience* having been in Hell?
I used to know someone who claimed exactly that.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Haven't read the article, but saw a couple of TV interviews.
The bits I especially liked were the emphasis on love, and the possible identity of the woman he met.
He was adopted. After his experience, he found out that he had a bio sister who had died as an adult. When he finally saw her picture, he said she was the woman he met.
As to other reported experiences, IIRC:
--People who report being in Heaven tend to report seeing a Being of Light, and they usually identify it in the context of their beliefs. So a Christian might see Jesus or Mary, etc.
--There are people who report some kind of Hell.
Dunno if any of this is true. I'm a universalist Christian with a fundamentalist Protestant background, and an agnostic to boot. I don't know what, if anything, there is after death. But I've pretty much decided to live as if there is something good, and we'll all eventually get there and be healed and Home. I'm much less panicky about death than I used to be.
So I take stories like the one in the OP as possible signs of hope, but I don't cling to them.
Freddy--I know Swedenborgians focus a lot on the afterlife. Is there any particular opinion on near-death experiences? Thanks.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
This isn't intended as personal criticism - I fully appreciate that NDEs can have a profound effect on people - but his description should carry no more weight than any other person. As it happens, Kevin Nelson's book The God Impulse is a very good explanation of why NDEs are as they are, including (as Anselmina says) a narrowing of vision under extreme conditions, and it also touches on the nature of spiritual experiences and why people react so strongly to them.
I'm curious: are the brain scan results (showing that his entire cortex was not functioning) consistent with Kevin Nelson's research results? I'm guessing from Amazon's book description that they are.
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
This isn't intended as personal criticism - I fully appreciate that NDEs can have a profound effect on people - but his description should carry no more weight than any other person. As it happens, Kevin Nelson's book The God Impulse is a very good explanation of why NDEs are as they are, including (as Anselmina says) a narrowing of vision under extreme conditions, and it also touches on the nature of spiritual experiences and why people react so strongly to them.
I'm curious: are the brain scan results (showing that his entire cortex was not functioning) consistent with Kevin Nelson's research results? I'm guessing from Amazon's book description that they are.
From memory, yes. I couldn't swear to it, though - it was a while ago that I read it, and other features like the narrowing of vision (creating the impression of a tunnel with light at the end) and some very interesting material about spiritual and ecstatic experiences (including a bizarre but intriguing anecdote about a game of pinball) made more of an impression on me.
It's definitely worth a read.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Apart from one or two stories in the more - shall we say exotic - reaches of the Christian press, isn't it rather odd that nobody ever seems to come back from a near-death experience* having been in Hell?
There's an account of someone having come back from somewhere Hellish quoted in one of Hans Kung's books - I think Does God Exist?
(He concludes by pointing out that nobody who has reported a near death experience has ipso facto actually died.)
(i.f. - for that very reason)
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Bob Two-Owls
Shipmate
# 9680
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Posted
In some of the accounts of the immediate post-death Bardo state in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition the road to a favourable or an unfavourable rebirth (including the heaven and hell realms) are similar. They all refer to long white tunnels and some have summer meadows, others have fields of loving kindness and beings like points of light. All these sound to me very much like cultural overlays upon a genuine physiological phenomenon. I haveexperienced the tunnel and white light for myself in the centrifuge and the sensation is different whether you experience blackout or redout.
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
I haveexperienced the tunnel and white light for myself in the centrifuge and the sensation is different whether you experience blackout or redout.
Wait - why would you put yourself in a centrifuge? Are you an astronaut?
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
I don't like the conscription of near-death experiences as evangelistic tools, simply because it's likely that the whole thing is completely explicable in physiological terms. Others on this thread have mentioned elements of this - the narrowing of the visual field, the 'white tunnel', and so on.
Why tell someone that what they've experienced is Heaven, when what they've really experienced is merely the process of their own body shutting down?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I don't like the conscription of near-death experiences as evangelistic tools, simply because it's likely that the whole thing is completely explicable in physiological terms. Others on this thread have mentioned elements of this - the narrowing of the visual field, the 'white tunnel', and so on.
Why tell someone that what they've experienced is Heaven, when what they've really experienced is merely the process of their own body shutting down?
A very pleasant way to shut down, don'tcha think?
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Bob Two-Owls
Shipmate
# 9680
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Wait - why would you put yourself in a centrifuge? Are you an astronaut?
No I worked for a company that made seriously cool jet fighters in the US and got a go on the simulator and the centrifuge on the graduate development programme.
Posts: 1262 | Registered: Jul 2005
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Interesting how everyone's expectations of eternity involve Alpine valleys and nubile young women. Even skeptics, it seems.
There are no nubile young women in my afterlife fantasies (except me, of course ). I think you are saying 'everyone' when you mean heterosexual men, no?
Now, now, Boogie! Don't forget the lesbians! When I die I want to see a nubile Angelina Jolie or Uma Thurman lookalike!
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I don't like the conscription of near-death experiences as evangelistic tools, simply because it's likely that the whole thing is completely explicable in physiological terms. Others on this thread have mentioned elements of this - the narrowing of the visual field, the 'white tunnel', and so on.
Why tell someone that what they've experienced is Heaven, when what they've really experienced is merely the process of their own body shutting down?
A very pleasant way to shut down, don'tcha think?
That's as may be. It demonstrates nothing, and to claim such an experience as a demonstration of life after death, when there are so many perfectly good and natural explanations for the observed phenomena, speaks of either ignorance or dishonesty. (Or, to be strictly accurate, a willingness to push all else to one side in response to an experience which subjectively appears to have significance.)
You might as well argue that hypothermia victims who engage in paradoxical undressing were doing so because they were starting to feel the fires of Hell burning them.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I don't like the conscription of near-death experiences as evangelistic tools, simply because it's likely that the whole thing is completely explicable in physiological terms.
I don't like it because it suggests that the greatest benefit of Christianity is a pleasant afterlife.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
One comment I have heard about near-death experiences is that none of those people actually did die.
Ask yourself what would constitute actual good evidence that such an experience is real. (This is at least a good creativity exercise.)
How about this: John Jones wishes he knew the answer to a question, something very specific and not fuzzy. No one alive knows the answer. Jones passes into a coma, has a near-death experience, and in the process he learns the answer.
If such a scenario came to pass, I think it would indicate that the experience was "real". Unfortunately, I've never heard of a case of this sort.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
They are lying 40% chance
There are accounts by some people who seem to have integrity; the sort of people who don't normally tell lies.
True, knowing the person would make massive difference to the likelihood of the top suspicions.
That's why I thought you found the sceptics interesting, where it's easier to tell if it's unlikely to be the kind of lie they'd tell/delusion they'd have.
And with the multiple independent testimony, the 'simple' answers seem unlikely to me as full explanations for every case. Though there are a vast number of more complex ones, both natural and supernatural.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
I am in no way surprised that many people don't find the accounts of these experiences to be convincing.
What does surprise me is the lack of curiosity. Even if the underlying assumption is that we don't know and can't know what happens after death, it is still true that something, or nothing, will happen.
Why wouldn't we look for evidence of what that might be? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Why wouldn't we look for evidence of what that might be?
Because it is notoriously unreliable - on a level with asking whether mediums can speak with the dead.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Why wouldn't we look for evidence of what that might be?
Because it is notoriously unreliable - on a level with asking whether mediums can speak with the dead.
Where do you get the idea that it has been notoriously unreliable? There has been an enormous amount of credible research about NDE's.
Certainly plenty of individual claims can be dismissed as bogus for a host of reasons. But consistent, cross-cultural evidence suggests that some experience like this is what will happen to you when you die. It is not unreasonable to see this as a possibility.
On the other hand mediums have been routinely discredited.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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