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Source: (consider it) Thread: Organizational suicide
Freddy
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I heard someone say recently that when churches change their policy of restricting the clergy to men, and begin to ordain women, it is a form of organizational suicide.

They said that, contrary to what most people think, churches don't typically become more successful or popular when they change this policy. Rather, most of them have declined, or continued to decline.

Is this true? Does anyone know of examples of churches that have grown after making this change in the past 60 years? [Confused]

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Robert Armin

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I don't think any church decided to ordain women as a tactic to boost membership. My understanding of the change in the CoE (the only church I know much about) is that the change happened because the majority of its members became convinced that this was the right thing to do. If doing the right thing is rewarded with success, that's great, but in the vale of tears in which we live it often isn't so.

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Albertus
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And: does anyone know of any examples of churches which, while having made this change and declined in the past sixty years, have declined less significantly than other churches which have not made this change? (Yes, CofE* and RCC in England, I am looking at you...)

*See here. It's the Mass/ churchgoing figures that I refer to. There has been a very sharp decline in nominal CofE membership, but that has pretty much coincided with a sharp rise in the numbers saying they have no religion. My guess is that this is a cultural and perhaps generational shift, rather than anything to do with OOW or, directly, anything much else that the Cof E has or hasn't done: once upon a time in England, if you had no religion to speak of you were likely to say that you were CofE as a default position. Now, I suspect, if you have no religion to speak of, you are more likely to say that you have no religion.

[ 15. September 2012, 11:30: Message edited by: Albertus ]

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
I don't think any church decided to ordain women as a tactic to boost membership.

Good point!

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
I heard someone say recently that when churches change their policy of restricting the clergy to men, and begin to ordain women, it is a form of organizational suicide.

When early church movements are in the phase of dynamism and growth, they sometimes have women in leadership, so female leaders don't in themselves indicate decline. My impression is that when churches start to institutionalise, that's when they reduce the roles that are available to women. But the stage after that, when growth slows down, when the organisation has to manage stagnation or has entered decline, is when women are allowed to enter into leadership. So, unfortunately, the two things may appear to be connected; but it would seem that decline leads to female ordination, not the other way round.

However, I've also read that any profession that becomes highly feminised tends to end up as less attractive to men, and consequently becomes less prestigious. Some commentators are probably fearful that this will happen to the ministry; isn't it the case in the UK that the typical ordinand is now a middle aged woman? And if the pulpit, like the pews, becomes a predominantly female sphere, then the fear is that men will be even more likely to feel alienated and to stay away, which will obviously contribute to decline....

Quite controversial. There may be some truth in the notion that some (not all!!!) men may feel alienated by female leadership. Saying so doesn't mean that we have to approve of their attitudes, of course!!

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lily pad
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I heard a senior male cleric remark once that he had no idea where we would be without the women clergy. His opinion was that at least half of the churches in his presbytery would have closed without the ministry of women, many of whom were in a position to accept half-time employment while raising their families. I agree with his opinion that the church is stronger with leadership from both men and women.

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mousethief

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The church in western Europe has been in decline since at least the 18th century, and it appears the decline is accelerating; blaming it on women clergy would seem to be a bit of a post hoc fallacy.

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The church in western Europe has been in decline since at least the 18th century, and it appears the decline is accelerating; blaming it on women clergy would seem to be a bit of a post hoc fallacy.

Absolutely.

But this isn't about the church in general, but about individual denominations. Plenty of denominations are growing and I'm sure that some of them must be ones that ordain women.

Also, the argument is sometimes made that if a specific denomination continues to refuse ordination to women it will decline in numbers and die, having lost relevancy. Of course, maybe we're all irrelevant. [Biased]

So I'm searching for some examples of denominations that made the switch over the past, say, 60 years, and subsequently grew in numbers. Not that this association would prove anything, but it would counter the argument that ordaining women is denominational suicide.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Net Spinster
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quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:

But this isn't about the church in general, but about individual denominations. Plenty of denominations are growing and I'm sure that some of them must be ones that ordain women.

...

So I'm searching for some examples of denominations that made the switch over the past, say, 60 years, and subsequently grew in numbers. Not that this association would prove anything, but it would counter the argument that ordaining women is denominational suicide.

It might be easier to find a list of growing denominations (and is this absolute numbers or percentage) and seeing how many have women leaders. What if a denomination that switched a 100 years ago and is growing or one that started 40 years ago and has always had women ministers.

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
It might be easier to find a list of growing denominations (and is this absolute numbers or percentage) and seeing how many have women leaders.

Good suggestion. How about this:
quote:

Largest 25 Denominations/Communions from the [URL=http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/fastfacts/fast_facts.html ]2012 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches[/URL].
Total church membership reported in the 2012 Yearbook is 145,691,446 members, down 1.15 percent over 2011.

*Ordains women

1. The Catholic Church 68,202,492, [ranked 1 in 2011] , down 0.44 percent.
2. Southern Baptist Convention 16,136,044, [ranked 2 in 2011] , down 0.15 percent.
*3. The United Methodist Church 7,679,850, [ranked 3 in 2011] , down 1.22 percent.
4. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 6,157,238, [ranked 4 in 2011] , up 1.62 percent.
5. The Church of God in Christ 5,499,875, [ranked 5 in 2011] , no update reported.
*6. National Baptist Convention , U.S.A. , Inc. 5,197,512, [ranked 6 in 2011] , up 3.95 percent.
*7. Evangelical Lutheran Church in America 4,274,855, [ranked 7 in 2011] , down 5.90 percent.
*8. National Baptist Convention of America , Inc. 3,500,000, [ranked 8 in 2011] , no update reported.
*9. Assemblies of God 3,030,944, [ranked 9 in 2011] , up 3.99 percent.
*10. Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) 2,675,873, [ranked 10 in 2011] , down 3.42 percent.
*11. African Methodist Episcopal Church 2,500,000, [ranked 11 in 2011] , no update reported.
*12. National Missionary Baptist Convention of America 2,500,000, [ranked 11 in 2011] , no update reported.
13. The Lutheran Church — Missouri Synod (LCMS) 2,278,586, [ranked 13 in 2011] , down 1.45 percent.
*14. The Episcopal Church 1,951,907, [ranked 14 in 2011] , down 2.71 percent.
*15. Pentecostal Assemblies of the World, Inc. 1,800,000, ranked 15 [ranked 17 in 2011] , up 20 percent.
16. Churches of Christ 1,639,495, [ranked 15 in 2011] , no update reported.
17. Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America 1,500,000 , [ranked 16 in 2011] , no update reported.
*18. The African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church 1,400,000, [ranked 18 in 2011] , no update reported.
*19. American Baptist Churches in the U.S.A. 1,308,054, [ranked 19 in 2011] , down 0.19 percent.
*20. Jehovah’s Witnesses 1,184,249, [ranked 20 in 2011] , up 1.85 percent.
*21. Church of God ( Cleveland , Tennessee ) 1,074,047, [ranked 22 in 2011] , down 0.21 percent.
22. Christian Churches and Churches of Christ 1,071,616, [ranked 23 in 2011] , no update reported.
23. Seventh-day Adventist Church 1,060,386, [ranked 24 in 2011] , up 1.61 percent.
*24. United Church of Christ 1,058,423, [ranked 21 in 2011], down 2.02 percent.
*25. Progressive National Baptist Convention, Inc. 1,010,000, [ranked 25 in 2011 ], no update reported.

Total membership in top 25 churches: 145,691,446, down 1.15 percent.
103,545,732 in churches that do not ordain women.

I guess that does it. Hmmm. What do we see? It looks like most of them ordain women.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Jengie jon

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Having done some calculations that would suggest that those that ordained women are overall growing(.65%) while those that don't are in decline (.34%)!

The big problem for the ones that ordain men is the size of the Roman Catholic church which is in decline.

Jengie

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Having done some calculations that would suggest that those that ordained women are overall growing(.65%) while those that don't are in decline (.34%)!

Thank you. That's very helpful!
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
The big problem for the ones that ordain men is the size of the Roman Catholic church which is in decline.

Yes. That also means that about two-thirds of all worshipers (in the largest denominations that is) attend churches of denominations that do not ordain women.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Palimpsest
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Having no ox in this dead horse I'd wonder what the average life span of a denomination is in Western Europe and America?
Hard to quentify since churches change as well as vanish and historical continuity is claimed which may be dubious.

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Net Spinster
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A few caveats on the stats:

1. The overall US population is also growing at a rate of about .9% per year (though been a bit lower the last few years and also varies regionally, higher in the South). This means that some of the denominations that are reporting growth may still be losing ground as a percentage of the overall population.

2. The various denominations count membership differently and it can be illuminating to compare a given denomination's own numbers with what surveys of individuals (such as the Pew Forum or ARIS) report.

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Having no ox in this dead horse I'd wonder what the average life span of a denomination is in Western Europe and America?
Hard to quentify since churches change as well as vanish and historical continuity is claimed which may be dubious.

I don't know the answer to this very interesting question. However, the proponents of supply and demand theory of religion would probably say that small movements or denominations are likely to have a longer life in the USA than in Europe. This, they would say, is because the open religious market in the USA encourages religious diversity, whereas European Christianity with its established, or quasi-established, churches makes it harder for new religious movements to thrive.
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no prophet's flag is set so...

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The ordination of women and the decline of church membership may be correlated, but this hardly points to causation. I think the more likely causes of general decline in church attendance has to do with the legacy of that period we call the 1960s, which in reality was from about 1965 to 1975, where the 'establishment' discredited itself pretty well across the board to a whole generation. Those people tended not to go adhere tightly to their parent's values, choices and heritage. If they attended church they did it for the social aspect. Their children have even less affiliation.

It is the churches which are rigid in their requirements for attendance, i.e., the 11th commandment "thou shalt attend mass", or which offer faithotainment that have suffered less, with the USA as a curious anomaly. --In my view.

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Jengie jon

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quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
A few caveats on the stats:

1. The overall US population is also growing at a rate of about .9% per year (though been a bit lower the last few years and also varies regionally, higher in the South). This means that some of the denominations that are reporting growth may still be losing ground as a percentage of the overall population.

Yes but that will affect all of them equally so the difference would still be the same. At worst those not ordaining women are in faster decline than those that do.

quote:

2. The various denominations count membership differently and it can be illuminating to compare a given denomination's own numbers with what surveys of individuals (such as the Pew Forum or ARIS) report.

As the percentage change in membership is counted as a percentage of the membership, figures that inflate or deflate by a constant percentage will balance themselves out. So of less concern than raw scores.

Oh the evidence is for women's ordination decreasing decline not the other way around. The figures provided show the opposite to what was suggested in the OP.

Actually having handled the figures I would say this, that having an overt evangelicalisation stance is the biggest predictor of halting the decline.

Jengie

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Net Spinster
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:

It is the churches which are rigid in their requirements for attendance, i.e., the 11th commandment "thou shalt attend mass", or which offer faithotainment that have suffered less, with the USA as a curious anomaly. --In my view.

Not quite true. The Catholic church US has mostly held its own because of immigration. The number of former Catholics in the US is huge according to Pew. Approximately 1/3 of those raised Catholic are no longer Catholic. The link also has info on other groups.

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Jonathanbkatte
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Consequently there is no thing of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is.

[ 04. December 2012, 04:04: Message edited by: Jonathanbkatte ]

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Louise
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Hosting

The post above has a dodgy looking website in the sig. It has been referred to the admins. I suggest you don't click. I'm closing this thread while we check
L
Hosting off

[The Admins have now removed the link which was indeed dodgy and banned the spammer - thread re-opened.]

[ 04. December 2012, 14:54: Message edited by: Louise ]

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:

It is the churches which are rigid in their requirements for attendance, i.e., the 11th commandment "thou shalt attend mass", or which offer faithotainment that have suffered less, with the USA as a curious anomaly. --In my view.

Not quite true. The Catholic church US has mostly held its own because of immigration. The number of former Catholics in the US is huge according to Pew. Approximately 1/3 of those raised Catholic are no longer Catholic. The link also has info on other groups.
I suppose one has to compare that figure to the decline of other church groups. Some groups have been declining for a long time, so the decline in recent decades will be less steep. Catholic decline is a more recent phenomenon, so will obviously present a more striking set of figures.

The trouble the RCC will have, I think, is that if it now changes its teachings and introduces women priests, the greatest reaction in the secular West is unlikely to be admiration, but cynicism. Many people will assume that the change is simply about expediency, not divine revelation or theological insight. Meanwhile, many faithful Catholics around the world who tolerated or even championed the status quo may wonder how the church could change position on such a fundamental issue (as they see it). More than other denominations, the RCC seems to require an acceptance of priestly and churchly authority, and if the RCC fails to reassert its authority sufficiently after such a significant change, many practising Catholics may feel disillusioned and/or confused. This sort of atmosphere can only weaken the church. Only those who were strongly in favour of women priests, which may not be a majority, would be without misgivings.

This is how it seems to me.

[ 09. December 2012, 15:23: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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TAXKCDFT: http://xkcd.com/552/

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Justinian
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
My guess is that this is a cultural and perhaps generational shift, rather than anything to do with OOW or, directly, anything much else that the Cof E has or hasn't done: once upon a time in England, if you had no religion to speak of you were likely to say that you were CofE as a default position. Now, I suspect, if you have no religion to speak of, you are more likely to say that you have no religion.

Age and shift from CofE to no religion as default certainly has a lot to do with it.

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Bullfrog.

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quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
...Plenty of denominations are growing...

Examples?

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Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

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ToujoursDan

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Also much of the decline is due to factors unrelated to the theological or social positions of these organizations.

Mainline Protestant denominations in the U.S. and Canada have declined principally because they draw their membership from mostly White Protestant people whose birthrates have been falling since the mid-1990s. There have been a few papers published that state that the birthrate for Episcopalians and Presbyterians are currently at 1.3 per couple.

I suppose that one can make the argument that once a church organization adopts a policy that welcomes gay people and supports women who pursue vocations (and other careers) they are likely to attract and retain people who have lower birthrates than those who emphasize more "traditional" gender and familial roles. The result will be that they may suffer from membership loss, particularly if they can't make up the difference via evangelism, which is increasingly difficult to do in a crowded religious marketplace in a post-Christian society.

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ToujoursDan

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Sorry, meant to write that birthrates have been declining amongst White Protestants since the mid 1960s.

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