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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Conmen
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
So Cameron and Clegg have set out 180 policies to be delivered before 2015
If only Cameron made good on any of the policies promised in his Manifesto before the last election.
Does any Shipmate give any credence to any promise made by any Party at any time?
Or must we regard the whole lot with a cynical indifference?
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
Does any Shipmate give any credence to any promise made by any Party at any time?
Or must we regard the whole lot with a cynical indifference?
I'm sure they mean well but .... If you read carefully, policies are generally couched in broad generalities and are very short on detail. There's a lot of why and what, and not much how.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
Or must we regard the whole lot with a cynical indifference?
No, we must get rid of these bastards. These guys have screwed the low earners, screwed the disadvantaged, screwed the middle-income families all to pay of a deficit in order to prop up the value of their share portfolios. We cannot be indifferent, we must fight. Kicking out Gordon seemed right at the time ... even he couldn't have made things this bad!
Now they want to play on misinformed hatred of the EU to entice back the voters who should rightly have turned their backs by now. Unfortunately, the next government is likely to be a Labour/UKIP coalition, which is go a whole new bundle of laughs.
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Paging Augustine the Aleut and John Holding, Public Servants with experience in turning promises into policy are wanted in Purg please!
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
If only Cameron made good on any of the policies promised in his Manifesto before the last election.
The Conservative party manifesto cannot be considered as the manifesto for this government, seeing as how this government is a coalition of the Conservative party and the Liberal Democrats.
The coalition government made more than 400 pledges (some from the Conservative manifesto, some from the Lib Dem manifesto, others from neither) in its first week in power, which can be considered to be the "manifesto" for its term. By the end of their first year in power, 336 of those had either been kept or were in progress, and only 17 had not been kept in any way.
Lest you think I'm getting my figures from a pro-Tory source, I'll point out that they come from The Guardian.
It can clearly be seen that your "they never keep any of their promises" guff is completely unwarranted, not to mention utterly false.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
Or must we regard the whole lot with a cynical indifference?
No, we must get rid of these bastards. These guys have:
1. screwed the low earners,
2. screwed the disadvantaged,
3. screwed the middle-income families
4. to prop up the value of their share portfolios.
5. Now they want to play on misinformed hatred of the EU
(I edited the above for eases sake)
There are several points you make: can I see some evidence to support your assertions please.
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
There are several points you make: can I see some evidence to support your assertions please.
There are indeed several points made there. However, none of them relate to policies that were declared or promises that were made.
If a political party (or coalition) enacts policies that you disagree with, that's one thing. But it doesn't make them liars or conmen.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I'm not sure about their promises, but it strikes me that this government have badly miscalculated the effects of their austerity package, or packages, which seem to have choked the economy. Of course, one reply to that is TINA, there is no alternative, if the deficit is to be reduced.
I believe that the jargon is that a deficit reduction plan without a growth plan is not actually a deficit reduction plan, since the deficit tends to increase.
However, whether there is a feasible plan B, and whether Labour would have done any better, seems very difficult to estimate, as far as I can see.
SNAFU.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
If only Cameron made good on any of the policies promised in his Manifesto before the last election.
The Conservative party manifesto cannot be considered as the manifesto for this government, seeing as how this government is a coalition of the Conservative party and the Liberal Democrats.
The coalition government made more than 400 pledges (some from the Conservative manifesto, some from the Lib Dem manifesto, others from neither) in its first week in power, which can be considered to be the "manifesto" for its term. By the end of their first year in power, 336 of those had either been kept or were in progress, and only 17 had not been kept in any way.
Lest you think I'm getting my figures from a pro-Tory source, I'll point out that they come from The Guardian.
It can clearly be seen that your "they never keep any of their promises" guff is completely unwarranted, not to mention utterly false.
That's cruel - you're confusing a poster will facts. Anyone would think this was purgatory... ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The Conservative party manifesto cannot be considered as the manifesto for this government, seeing as how this government is a coalition of the Conservative party and the Liberal Democrats.
Marvin is right on this. Back at the time of the election there were people complaining, 'It's all wrong and unfair; we voted Conservative but we haven't got a Conservative government'.
Answer:
'That's because the Conservatives did not win the election. Quite a lot of people voted Labour as well, and they haven't got a Labour government either'.
If no party has overall control, you have to do deals. That's life. You can't implement everything in your manifesto. That doesn't make you a liar. It is also a blessing to the hoi polloi. We are delivered from some dogma and stupidity defended with the spurious argument, 'we have a manifesto'.
I still maintain that for all government's failings, we are better governed at the moment than we would have been if either of the two larger parties had got an overall majority.
Oddly, public debate is not as febrile as it was under the previous administration, which had an overall majority, but based on only 35% of the vote, administration but not legitimacy.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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The Rogue
Shipmate
# 2275
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Posted
It seems to me that the Coalition has been able, on the whole, to kerb the worst excesses of single party Government and I am hoping for another one next time round.
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If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?
Posts: 2507 | From: Toton | Registered: Feb 2002
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
That's cruel - you're confusing a poster will facts. Anyone would think this was purgatory...
Since when has any decent lefty ever let facts get in the way of a good Tory-bashing story?
Anyway, the coalition is just as horrible for a true-blue, old-fashioned Tory like me. We are unable to deliver what we wanted because we have to give consideration to the Liberals. If they weren’t in the way we could have delivered much, much more.
I think the electorate knows that though. I think they realise that coalitions are inherently unsatisfactory for everyone, and though they get thrown up now and again with varying degrees of success, nobody really wants them. That is why the electorate gave very, very short shrift to the Liberal’s voting system changes in the referendum.
Of course it’s no coincidence that the Prime Minister is telling everyone that this Parliament will serve the full five years. We need that to get the recovery fully underway, then we will tell people at the next election that we’ve turned around Labour’s woeful economic legacy we were left, and that now it is getting better, you don’t want to let them ruin it again! Hopefully that will see us returned and we can govern as a proper Conservative government, without the dead-weight of the Liberals around our necks, forcing us into bad compromises.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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The Rogue
Shipmate
# 2275
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Since when has any decent lefty ever let facts get in the way of a good Tory-bashing story?
Since when has any decent righty ever let facts get in the way of a good Labour-bashing story?
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If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?
Posts: 2507 | From: Toton | Registered: Feb 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I'm a decent lefty, and I am interested in the facts about the deficit, and the debt, and whether the current austerity plans have choked off growth, thus imperilling paying off both. But it does seem quite difficult to find facts about this, as naturally enough, there is plenty of spin and propaganda from all sides. So one is left rather puzzled. For example, the notions of deficit and debt often seem to be confused, even by politicians!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Anyway, the coalition is just as horrible for a true-blue, old-fashioned Tory like me. We are unable to deliver what we wanted because we have to give consideration to the Liberals. If they weren’t in the way we could have delivered much, much more.
I think the electorate knows that though. I think they realise that coalitions are inherently unsatisfactory for everyone, and though they get thrown up now and again with varying degrees of success, nobody really wants them. That is why the electorate gave very, very short shrift to the Liberal’s voting system changes in the referendum.
Of course it’s no coincidence that the Prime Minister is telling everyone that this Parliament will serve the full five years. We need that to get the recovery fully underway, then we will tell people at the next election that we’ve turned around Labour’s woeful economic legacy we were left, and that now it is getting better, you don’t want to let them ruin it again! Hopefully that will see us returned and we can govern as a proper Conservative government, without the dead-weight of the Liberals around our necks, forcing us into bad compromises.
That is testimony if ever such was, why those of us who are not committed to political dogma feel so much happier not being ruled by a single party of either side.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Enoch writes: quote:
I think they realise that coalitions are inherently unsatisfactory for everyone, and though they get thrown up now and again with varying degrees of success, nobody really wants them.
If nobody really wants them, then why on earth did they vote for a situation which must result in a coalition? When everyone's votes are counted and come up with a House of Commons where no party has a clear majority, we can only conclude that this is what they wanted, or that voters' intent has no necessary connexion with the results of their action.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Anyway, the coalition is just as horrible for a true-blue, old-fashioned Tory like me. We are unable to deliver what we wanted because we have to give consideration to the Liberals. If they weren’t in the way we could have delivered much, much more.
Yes but you got a coalition because not enough people in this country wanted a Conservative government enough to vote for one. Even up against the publicity-disaster that was Gordon Brown's premiership, the country rejected a Tory government. That's why we're all so pissed off with Clegg that he handed them victory after their defeat.
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
Or must we regard the whole lot with a cynical indifference?
No, we must get rid of these bastards. These guys have:
1. screwed the low earners,
2. screwed the disadvantaged,
3. screwed the middle-income families
4. to prop up the value of their share portfolios.
5. Now they want to play on misinformed hatred of the EU
(I edited the above for eases sake)
There are several points you make: can I see some evidence to support your assertions please.
Oh don't pester me for facts when I'm bashing the Tories, please.
1. cuts to benefits
2. cuts to benefits
3. cuts to child benefit in particular
4. look at the FTSE - this is a triple-dip recession for heaven's sake. Why hasn't it crashed?
5. http://www.the-eu-and-me.org.uk/eu-myths
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
Yes but you got a coalition because not enough people in this country wanted a Conservative government enough to vote for one. Even up against the publicity-disaster that was Gordon Brown's premiership, the country rejected a Tory government. That's why we're all so pissed off with Clegg that he handed them victory after their defeat.
Exactly.
I used to be a Lib Dem voter.
No longer.
I didn't vote Lib Dem to get Tories.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Enoch writes: quote:
I think they realise that coalitions are inherently unsatisfactory for everyone, and though they get thrown up now and again with varying degrees of success, nobody really wants them.
If nobody really wants them, then why on earth did they vote for a situation which must result in a coalition? When everyone's votes are counted and come up with a House of Commons where no party has a clear majority, we can only conclude that this is what they wanted, or that voters' intent has no necessary connexion with the results of their action.
You could be on to something there. Government policy (and especially this one's) is constrained not by manifestos, nor by a desire to be re-elected, but by the markets. At every turn human interests come some way behind economic ones, and it isn't national economic interests, but global ones.
Remember that, and most of this shower's policies can be explained. Shame they don't have the intellectual equipment to challenge the City & Wall Street and put policies in place that allow for economic recovery without screwing the pooch.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
Even up against the publicity-disaster that was Gordon Brown's premiership, the country rejected a Tory government.
I suppose you could put it that way, given that less than 50% of the vote went to them. But in doing so you'd have to accept that the country rejected every other party even more strongly. Either way the Tories come out of the last election as the party with the most right to form a government.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Exclamation Mark: quote:
I'm sure they mean well
I'm sure they mean to implement policies which work in the interests of their wealthy supporters. They've been quite good at that. But there is no sign that they understand the realities of existing on meagre benefits (while being demonised, and threatened with further cuts) in an increasingly divided society.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Actually, they do lie about statistics to justify their policies. Most recently is the cause and reason for UK debt, not to mention the necessity of reducing this.
The government lie about the necessity of the cuts they are making ( see my blog for more on this ), which they are doing to promote their own policies.
But have they lied about their promises - post election? Not substantially, but then I didn't want them to fulfill some of their promises. I didn't want them in power at all, and nor did a majority of the electorate.
There is a bigger problem, that the current political system is broken. There is no main party leader who has a clue what to do. So we end up being governed by a minority government, who pursue their own policies for the benefit of themselves and their rich and powerful friends, and to the detriment of the poor and powerless.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Enoch writes:
I think they realise that coalitions are inherently unsatisfactory for everyone, and though they get thrown up now and again with varying degrees of success, nobody really wants them.
No I didn't. It's the opposite of what I think. Deano may have said that. I think there's a lot to be said for coalitions. They restrain the dogmatists, theoreticians, opinionated and just plain stupid from getting power over the rest of us.
[ 08. January 2013, 21:06: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I didn't want them in power at all, and nor did a majority of the electorate.
Sadly for you a majority of the electorate didn't want whatever party you supported in power either.
Why don't you post on here instead of your blog? Then we might be interested.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Enoch writes:
I think they realise that coalitions are inherently unsatisfactory for everyone, and though they get thrown up now and again with varying degrees of success, nobody really wants them.
No I didn't. It's the opposite of what I think. Deano may have said that. I think there's a lot to be said for coalitions. They restrain the dogmatists, theoreticians, opinionated and just plain stupid from getting power over the rest of us.
You're quite right-- my bad clipping. I absolutely agree with you.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
My main problem is with how little the LDs have been able to keep the Conservatives in check - see tuition fees. Together with Ian Deathcamp Smith, a supposed Christian, being in charge of disabled people committing suicide because they fear for their incomes and foster children's rooms being considered 'spare' (despite foster rules meaning all children need their own rooms) in council housing, it's not a good government for vulnerable people. But as long as millionaires are OK, that's what matters I guess.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Don't forget that according to Gideon (oops sorry George, forgot we're trying for a wider appeal), we're all in this together.
All in what together? Fleecing the poor? Sorry mate I didn't ask you to speak on my behalf.
Well I suppose at least George can speak for himself which is more than can be said for my Tory mp. Mummy does it all for him.
Labour and their supporters are no better: there's hardly anyone with experience of poverty among them. As for Polly Toynbee deigning to write about poverty - it must be such a blow selling your house in Italy. Umbria wasn't it?
Lib Dems? They've blown it by letting David and his rich buddies asset strip the UK.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I'm not so sure that one needs to be poor to stand up for the poor - I mean, Tony Benn was a viscount! Many great leftwingers have come from privileged backgrounds, hardly their fault. It's what they do with that privilege that matters.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I'm not so sure that one needs to be poor to stand up for the poor - I mean, Tony Benn was a viscount! Many great leftwingers have come from privileged backgrounds, hardly their fault. It's what they do with that privilege that matters.
Don’t mention Benn to me! He was a waste of space. He was my MP for twenty years and spent hardly any time in the Chesterfield. He was a self-serving waste of space. That’s what he did with his privilege – nothing unless there was something in it for him!
To be honest JC, I think you have lost any kind of moral high-ground in this debate with…
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Together with Ian Deathcamp Smith
I would have thought that someone with a social conscience would think twice before devaluing a term synonymous with genocide. I wonder what Jewish people with relatives who died in death camps think of your amusing little bon-mot?
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I'm not so sure that one needs to be poor to stand up for the poor - I mean, Tony Benn was a viscount! Many great leftwingers have come from privileged backgrounds, hardly their fault. It's what they do with that privilege that matters.
Don’t mention Benn to me! He was a waste of space. He was my MP for twenty years and spent hardly any time in the Chesterfield. He was a self-serving waste of space. That’s what he did with his privilege – nothing unless there was something in it for him!
To be honest JC, I think you have lost any kind of moral high-ground in this debate with…
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Together with Ian Deathcamp Smith
I would have thought that someone with a social conscience would think twice before devaluing a term synonymous with genocide. I wonder what Jewish people with relatives who died in death camps think of your amusing little bon-mot?
IDS is literally killing disabled people with his policies. A comparison with a group of people who killed the disabled and 'workshy' seems apt.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I'm not so sure that one needs to be poor to stand up for the poor - I mean, Tony Benn was a viscount! Many great leftwingers have come from privileged backgrounds, hardly their fault. It's what they do with that privilege that matters.
Don’t mention Benn to me! He was a waste of space. He was my MP for twenty years and spent hardly any time in the Chesterfield. He was a self-serving waste of space. That’s what he did with his privilege – nothing unless there was something in it for him!
To be honest JC, I think you have lost any kind of moral high-ground in this debate with…
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Together with Ian Deathcamp Smith
I would have thought that someone with a social conscience would think twice before devaluing a term synonymous with genocide. I wonder what Jewish people with relatives who died in death camps think of your amusing little bon-mot?
IDS is literally killing disabled people with his policies. A comparison with a group of people who killed the disabled and 'workshy' seems apt.
Well no, the Minister has not killed anybody, not even according to 'The Independent' article you link to since it is a claim from GP's in a survey which does not give clear details or links to evidence, it is assertion with a overly emotional headline.
A small percentage of people have maybe considered suicide, but they will already have been on the possible suicide side of things before this, as the article points out... to take the Fitness to Work test as the only cause, or as the point at which they suddenly became suicidle flies in the face of much about how people prone to suicide feel (IME) and what is known and observed, and in fact what your exhalted article says.
If people genuinely are not fit to do any work then they have nothing to fear... All that is happening is a re-evaluation of people, because people do get better from their illness, or the world of work changes and there may now be a job they are capable of doing. I am of course sure that you were decrying people having to pass the Fitness to Work test when it first came in during 2008...
You are slandering/defamating, or certainly coming close to, a government Minister IMO with wild and false allegations that are not proveable or backed up by empirical evidence, and I echo deano's point.
[ 09. January 2013, 09:11: Message edited by: Sergius-Melli ]
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
If people genuinely are not fit to do any work then they have nothing to fear...
<hollow laughter>
Yes, that's why 40% of decisions are appealed, and 38% of appeals are successful ... (source)
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
If people genuinely are not fit to do any work then they have nothing to fear...
<hollow laughter>
Yes, that's why 40% of decisions are appealed, and 38% of appeals are successful ... (source)
So 15% of total cases are deemed incorrect and changed... not a great number really! Of course 38% sounds more, but that's just using particular figures...
Anyhow, with the appeals process figures, then there is evidently a problem (but not a particularly big problem) with the company acting on behalf of the government in the process, not the intention that is behind the process... If there was no appeals process then yes, there would be more to fear and a problem, but there is the safeguard of an appeals process which for the people who do find themselves on the wrong side of the line they are safeguarded.
To compare this to something else, the Justice system in the UK overturns convictions at appeal time and time again but you wouldn't argue that the Justice system is wrong in intention and should be stopped...
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
So 15% of total cases are deemed incorrect and changed... not a great number really!
It's a very significant number when the actual fraud rate, according to the same article which is quoting the DWP, is just 0.7% - and more on this below ...
quote:
Anyhow, with the appeals process figures, then there is evidently a problem (but not a particularly big problem) with the company acting on behalf of the government in the process, not the intention that is behind the process...
As far as intent is concerned, again quoting from the article: 'We know from Dispatches and Panorama that Atos assessors are being given targets for removing people from the benefits "support group" '
And: 'We know that you're more likely to be successful if you've got audio of the assessment. For "security reasons", Atos will not let claimants use their own recording equipment, and has purchased only 11 machines, to be split between 123 centres, to interview 11,000 people a week. At the last check, several machines were broken, but "unfortunately" assessments couldn't be postponed until they were mended.'
And: 'We know that Atos requires no mental health training from its assessors, has no specific test for the mentally ill, and takes no account of fluctuating conditions ...'
quote:
If there was no appeals process then yes, there would be more to fear and a problem, but there is the safeguard of an appeals process which for the people who do find themselves on the wrong side of the line they are safeguarded.
No, because you don't receive your benefits while you're appealing, only afterwards if it's successful - and it can take months ...
quote:
To compare this to something else, the Justice system in the UK overturns convictions at appeal time and time again but you wouldn't argue that the Justice system is wrong in intention and should be stopped...
Well, according to this government source, 1.2 million people were found guilty of something or other at a magistrate's court in 2011, and according to this other government source (p.63), only 200 appeals against conviction were successful in the same year (1,386 appeals against sentence were also allowed). That would be a successful appeals rate of 0.01%, or 0.1% if appeals against sentence are included, unless I am grossly misunderstanding the figures. So yes, a comparison with appeals in the law courts is indeed instructive.
[ 09. January 2013, 10:35: Message edited by: Ricardus ]
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
My main problem is with how little the LDs have been able to keep the Conservatives in check - see tuition fees.
Ah yes, tuition fees. I'm sure you realise that had Labour won at the last election, fees would still have risen just as much. After all, it was Labour that commissioned the Browne Review a good year or more before the election, and both they and the Tories promised to follow its recommendations.
The Tories are, in fact, the only party not to have broken a manifesto promise about university fees. The Lib Dems did so this time round, though it's harsh to blame them too much given that they're the minority member of the coalition. Labour did so back in 2005 when they introduced top-up fees after explicitly promising not to in their manifesto. The Tories are, therefore, the only party that doesn't break their promises about higher education! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
That would be a successful appeals rate of 0.01%, or 0.1% if appeals against sentence are included, unless I am grossly misunderstanding the figures.
Actually, I am indeed misunderstanding the statistics, by only considering appeals through the Court of Appeal, instead of appeals through the Crown Court. The figure should be more like 0.6% for all kinds of appeal ... which doesn't really help Atos' / the DWP's case ...
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I didn't vote Lib Dem to get Tories.
Well, you did actually. Take a look at their track record with some local authorities and you'll see that this coalition government isn't the first time they've jumped into bed with the Tories. I can think of two where they led the balance of power and they chose to go into partnership with the Tories, even though they were the second largest party, so don't even entertain their bollocks that they went into coalition "in the interests of democracy"
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
That would be a successful appeals rate of 0.01%, or 0.1% if appeals against sentence are included, unless I am grossly misunderstanding the figures.
Actually, I am indeed misunderstanding the statistics, by only considering appeals through the Court of Appeal, instead of appeals through the Crown Court. The figure should be more like 0.6% for all kinds of appeal ... which doesn't really help Atos' / the DWP's case ...
Nor does this: http://politicalscrapbook.net/2012/11/disabled-man-dies-after-atos-stops-benefits-chris-grayling/
But of course, he can't have been a genuine claimant, or he'd have had nothing to fear, isn't that right?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I used to be a Lib Dem voter.
No longer.
I didn't vote Lib Dem to get Tories.
I'm intrigued as to how you saw things back then, Boogie. You seem to be relatively well-informed person. Did you see the comments by Nick Clegg before the 2010 that in the event of a hung parliament (which was then considered likely) he would consider supported whichever was the largest party?
Given that the Tories had a poll lead, it seems to me that some form of Tory - Liberal alliance was on the cards after 2010.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
With hindsight things look a lot different. Before the election, Gordon Brown and his not-really-new-but-slightly-sordid Labour appeared discredited; Clegg soft-pedalled his economic liberalism to appear acceptable to left-leaning people turned off by Labour; Cameron was still in his 'hug a hoodie', caring-sharing One Nation Tory mode. Even the Guardian was taken in by Clegg so far as to recommend a vote for the Lib Dems, which obviously wouldn't have made much difference to the majority of Sun-reading voters but probably swayed a few waverers.
It all looks very different now.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I didn't want them in power at all, and nor did a majority of the electorate.
Sadly for you a majority of the electorate didn't want whatever party you supported in power either.
Why don't you post on here instead of your blog? Then we might be interested.
"They" aren't in power. Bankers, businessmen and market-makers are, and none of us voted for any of them.
[ 09. January 2013, 11:54: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The Tories are, in fact, the only party not to have broken a manifesto promise about university fees. The Lib Dems did so this time round, though it's harsh to blame them too much given that they're the minority member of the coalition. Labour did so back in 2005 when they introduced top-up fees after explicitly promising not to in their manifesto. The Tories are, therefore, the only party that doesn't break their promises about higher education!
Is that because they made a pledge that they have managed to keep, or because they had the foresight to avoid making any and so have had nothing to break?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
The Tories are, therefore, the only party that doesn't break their promises about higher education!
Is that because they made a pledge that they have managed to keep, or because they had the foresight to avoid making any and so have had nothing to break?
They (and Labour, FWIW) said before the last election that they would follow whatever advice the Browne Review came up with. Which they then did.
[ 09. January 2013, 14:03: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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