Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Christmas alone
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Extended family all have grandbabies and announced their full attention is now nuclear family, I am not welcome and "never" will be again for any holiday celebrations. My "single" friends all have a kid they go to for holidays.
Somehow in all the years of churches teaching me how to live they never mentioned anything about how to live single in a family-oriented culture.
Good news is I went camping with a new to me meet-up group, women mostly over 50. They were all lamenting that you lose your friends when they get married, and any you gain back after the divorce you lose again as soon as the grandbabies come. At least I know my experience is normal. That group meets again in January. Potential new friendships to develop, yea!
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
I am so sorry your family is treating you with such unkindness, Christmas should be a time of warmth and sharing. Does your church have any scheme of getting people together at Christmas? Some churches have volunteer families, couples, groups etc who welcome the chance to spend Christmas with others. Perhaps you could offer to meet up with some other people who want company? I hope you can find something that suits your needs. I'm glad you have found some new, like-minded friends, maybe next year some of you might be able to get together?
-------------------- 'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams Dog Activity Monitor My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I've probably mentioned it before, but you might like to get involved with Servas.
-------------------- All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
I have no family (I'm divorced, and my parents and sister have all died. No kids, no nieces or nephews, no close cousins), but I usually have dinner with friends, taking turns hosting. A few times it hasn’t worked due to health problems, and I’ve spent Christmas by myself. It really isn’t so bad.
Then I hear over and over again the horror stories from people with extended families. The controlling parents, the bratty visiting kids, the in-laws from hell, the uncle who’s always drunk. Second marriages with different children issues and dealing with ex-spouses often make it worse. At that point every year I am SO grateful to have a calm, peaceful Christmas. And I certainly prefer it to those who think they’re doing us singles a huge favor by taking pity on us and inviting us to join them out of sympathy.
-------------------- "...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe." ~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
When my mom was alive, she'd always invite friends and acquaintances who were at loose ends for the holidays, including a close friend of mine. It happened that this friend became a real support in the days after my mom's death. My dad gave her a nice GPS unit the next Christmas and sent both of us on a short cruise one spring. But now he has decided that she makes him "uncomfortable" -evidently not because of her proximity during my mom's passing but because she had rebelled against her parents forty years ago (!) (they did reconcile) and because she refers to them by their first names. Grrrr!
I now just make sure to share some time and a meal with her on holidays.
-------------------- "Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
I have a large, extended family. But they are scattered. Did I mention scattered?
This year, I may have company. My nephew says he's coming for dinner, but he often is a no-show. We'll see.
I often spend Christmas Day alone. It's not so bad. I never invite myself, but make sure others will not be alone. I invite those. But if they say no, I don't push.
Sometimes I get a visit from some family a few days after - usually the 27th
-------------------- Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
Belle, your new group sounds interesting.
I don't mind spending Christmas alone, apart from going to church and have organised this as a gift to myself several times. (If necessary I tell people I am meeting someone later, as some people issue last minute invitations). I find being an 'extra' in a family really difficult and have only agreed to this once.
This year I am having a meal out with a friend, and taking cake and Christmas pud to another friend's place on Boxing Day.
What I do miss is minding the Christmas gift tree in the Cathedral on Christm Eve as people came and left presents for needy families, one of the lasting reminders of the quakes
Huia
-------------------- Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
One year I had 20 "singles" supposedly coming for Thanksgiving, but as the day approached they all but one backed out, turns out most "singles" have family somewhere that get around to inviting them at the last minute.
Friends who use to include me now go to their grandbabies' house, and can't invite me to someone else house.
Back when I was surrounded with people on the job 6 days a week, Christmas alone could be a treat. Now that I work alone at home, I need to be with people.
Neither church I hang out at has any kind of singles interest, and when I invite couples to lunch after church they tell me they don't socialize with singles. Not unusual for small town USA, from what I hear.
There's a good side to (almost) anything. Being disappointed/annoyed at extended family for doing what the culture tells them (close off into nuclear family for holidays), has pushed me to explore meet-ups even though most of them are 2 hours from here, in the big city. Tonight I found a group celebrating the end of the world with a drum circle and fireworks, if they get enough people. Gotta sign up, I have a drum!
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Ye Olde Motherboarde
Ship's Mother and Singing Quilter
# 54
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Posted
FROM BELL RINGER: "Tonight I found a group celebrating the end of the world with a drum circle and fireworks, if they get enough people. Gotta sign up, I have a drum!"
That sounds like solstice day here in town. Gathering around a labyrinth, too? You have got to send photos or a video of the "end of the world" celebration. It sounds like a not to be missed time.
-------------------- In Memory of Miss Molly, TimC, Gambit, KenWritez, koheleth, Leetle Masha, JLG, Genevieve, Erin, RuthW2, deuce2, Sidi and TonyCoxon, unbeliever, Morlader, Ken :tear: 20 years but who’s counting?..................
Posts: 4292 | From: Looking for more trouble to get into | Registered: May 2001
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Eigon
Shipmate
# 4917
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Posted
The drumming sounds like a lot of fun! I actually try to spend Christmas alone. It's a good time for "re-charging my batteries". So I tend to put off people who invite me to spend the day with them. This year, I intend to get up late, open my presents, maybe go for a walk by the river, and watch Doctor Who with a glass of good whisky in my hand. I'll probably get phone calls from my mum, sister and Young Man, but I won't be talking to anyone else voluntarily.
-------------------- Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
Posts: 3710 | From: Hay-on-Wye, town of books | Registered: Aug 2003
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daisydaisy
Shipmate
# 12167
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Belle Ringer: .... Tonight I found a group celebrating the end of the world with a drum circle and fireworks, if they get enough people. Gotta sign up, I have a drum!
Sounds brilliant - I wonder if I might find one of these over this side of the pond. Like Belle and many others I often find myself alone over Christmas and into New Year, and the way that those holidays fall this year makes the potential of a long time without company. I have a neighbour coming for Christmas "lunch" - I've learned the hard way that to him this means around 4pm, after he's completed his tax return . This gives me time to muster up courage for a walk before it gets dark..... I feel I stick out like a sore thumb when I go out by myself when everyone else is in Happy Family groups). For New Year I began inviting people over to celebrate, until I realised they were already organised elsewhere (I must have missed all those invitations!), however today a friend in a distant town has invited me over for a pub quiz. This year, more than most, I am feeling more of a singleton than ever, and I'm wondering whether to cancel my vacation and work instead.
Posts: 3184 | From: southern uk | Registered: Dec 2006
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by daisydaisy: I feel I stick out like a sore thumb when I go out by myself when everyone else is in Happy Family groups)...This year, more than most, I am feeling more of a singleton than ever, and I'm wondering whether to cancel my vacation and work instead.
The older I get the more I feel the separation from the family-centered holiday culture. When I was younger work kept me so busy a quiet day was welcome. But also there were people who would include me one or another year. Now they all have grandbabies, and these days the kids don't go to grandma's house, she goes to the kids, she can't invite an outsider to someone else's house, and if the kids do invite an outsider it will be one of their friends, not one of their Mom's friends they don't know.
As being alone for holidays becomes not just one year that's different, but most years, it gets lonelier because it is seen to be not just a different year but the pattern for the future, more and more aloneness (and the friends who included you gradually die), a reminder no one will visit you in your assisted living home to take you to a restaurant or movie, no one on the planet wakes up in the morning and thinks of you.
One neighbor suggested today getting together Christmas, saying "I don't want to be with you and you don't want to be with me, we both really want to be with people we love." That's probably how families think too, "why would we spend a family holiday with people we don't love?" And it's part of the problem of visiting nursing homes, aside from having nothing in common anyway so how do you start a conversation, you aren't who they want to see. (Takes planning to make it a meaningful visit, create a relationship by visiting once a month all year.)
Years ago I suggested inviting grandma's nursing home roommate to lunch with us, a woman never married no kids; grandma said hell no, she wanted to escape the nursing home for a few hours not bring it with her.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
FWIW, daisydaisy, when I worked, post divorce and no children about, and nieces and nephews snug in the bosoms of their own families, I, often , chose to work during the holidays (usually the period of December 20- to the first Monday after New Year. This had the advantage of working in a mostly quiet office, and I got caught up with my own work which tended to slide when I was dealing with others' work. Then when the staff returned, full of bubbly and holiday cheer, then, and then only, I took a break. No stress, no strain, shopping, reading sleeping and my batteries recharging.
Also, on Christmas Day, I treated myself to a nice, dry sherry, and a few biscuits (and the Queen on the telly) before going on to have a slightly posher meal than usual (and no turkey, TBTG) listening to music and having a sleep and reading.
I see a pattern which developed here.
-------------------- Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Imersge Canfield
Shipmate
# 17431
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Posted
I am impressed with the people here, to me seem brave, resoureful and creative.
I have never faced this as have partner but one of us will die first I guess. Sometimes over the years we have invited 'single people' to come; and for many years my old tutor came to us every other year, but has now died.
I'm very happy to slop about and have a quiet kind of day, but on my own I don't know how I'd manage.
-------------------- 'You must not attribute my yielding, to sinister appetites' "Preach the gospel and only use jewellry if necessary." (The Midge)
Posts: 419 | From: Sun Ship over Grand Fenwick Duchy | Registered: Nov 2012
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
Another "alone" person checking in.
When I was in busy in a church, I loved this aspect of things because I got to have a busy Christmas Eve and then a few quiet days. It feels strange now not to need to do that.
I will spend a part of the day with my parents and we will have a quiet time. The worst, frankly, is opening presents when I have one or two and they have so many from other relatives.
Not being partnered and being far away from my siblings makes me long for what I don't have. On the other hand, I see so many who would give anything for a quiet day. A bit of the "grass is greener" must be taken into consideration.
-------------------- Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Have those of you in the states who are alone this Christmas considered a stateside Christmas shipmeet ?
-------------------- All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Doublethink: Have those of you in the states who are alone this Christmas considered a stateside Christmas shipmeet?
In much of USA distances are HUGE! But it might work on the east coast where cities are close together?
At this point I'm trying to think how to get singles together for an Easter lunch, that's another time feels sort of awkward to be just another Sunday. Churches see children as the future of the church's survival, singles aren't producing children, so they are not of interest. "Last year 3 people joined the church, they are welcome of course, but the people we really want are young couples with children." (Said from the pulpit.) Churches (outside university areas) don't want a reputation of being a place for singles lest they fail to attract families with children.
So I don't expect any support in forming a "Let's help singles meet each other" activity.
But maybe starting a January telephoning each person listed in the directory alone, might flush put some who are interested in finding other singles to do celebratory things with.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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James the Confident
Ship's Pastor
# 9678
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Posted
I too am alone. I had a last minute suggestion "you can come to my place if you like" from my sister. I will go as she has been recently widowed and may find Christmas hard. I often feel left out and as I have just moved to a new town some 130Km from where I lived before, even more so.
However, I have decided on a new church and they seem very welcoming. The assistant priest is also a "single again" person so perhaps there will be some understanding there.
Ever the optimist, James
-------------------- "How do you get all those coins?" asked Mort. IN PAIRS "Mort", Terry Pratchett
Posts: 3219 | From: Geelong | Registered: Jul 2005
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
My church announced today "if you know someone who is alone for Christmas, be sure to take them one of the cards we are providing so they can be with someone." Turns out the cards announce the Christmas Eve Services. "Be with someone" means be in church.
I suppose for a liturgical church, Christmas is solely about being in church, so inviting people to church for Christmas Eve is fully and completely meeting the needs of people who are alone for Christmas.
I wonder what will change as (if?) churches catch on that fewer than half of USA households include a married couple, and only about a quarter of households are married with children at home. If churches focus on only 1/4th of households ("the target demographic is young couples with kids") and ignore the pre, post, and never married and the couples not married and the single parents, they are missing huge evangelistic opportunities. "The fields are ripe." But "Those aren't the fields we want to concentrate on."
Partly efficiency I suppose. Attract one person in a family you might reel in four. Attract one single, you get one. Singles are too much work?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Belle Ringer: Attract one person in a family you might reel in four. Attract one single, you get one. Singles are too much work?
Congratulations, you've just talked yourself into your own ministry.
PS: I belong to a liturgical church (I suppose!) and it doesn't sound very much like yours. Please don't tar everybody with the same brush. Thank you.
-------------------- Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
My church has many singles, active in every organization and program in the parish. Attract singles, and they'll bring their friends.
Also, in the past few years several of our not-in-the-first-blush-of-youth singles have gotten married (in at least two cases to fellow parishioners). Those who have married non-parishioners have brought their new spouses into the fold, and maybe some stepkids.
I have never felt left out of anything since my divorce. I do things with my fellow singles as well as with married friends in the parish.
-------------------- "...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe." ~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
When I first moved to Chester (as a 20 year old) I had some grim Christmas'; one where I had expected to be invited by anyone from church but no-one did, so I did myself some stir-fry and went to sleep. I was unemployed at the time so going under the covers kept me warm.
The other issue was seeming like a charity case, someone to feel sorry for. I didn't want to say "I'm going to be alone for Christmas (and try to live on 35:50 quid a week), so an invite would be appreciated".
Looking back I find preparing for the day is needed. As mentioned here, there is a strong family-centrism in the church (perhaps in society), something at odds with the experience of many people. While being a single young man with dodgy relations with the family I heard many times in church of the "importance of the family"
Anyway, it sounds like others here are well organised for the day. One can have an excellent time on ones own, or with others in the same boat.
-------------------- The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
One of the churches in my town puts on a Christmas meal to which anyone otherwise spending Christmas alone is invited. It doesn't matter if you don't go to that church reguarly, or whether you go to church at all. Everyone is invited.
Some people prefer to go along as a helper, so they can be busy doing something, rather than to sit there being helped, but again it is up to everyone to join in, or not, as they wish.
-------------------- Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Chorister: One of the churches in my town puts on a Christmas meal to which anyone otherwise spending Christmas alone is invited. It doesn't matter if you don't go to that church reguarly, or whether you go to church at all. Everyone is invited.
Some people prefer to go along as a helper, so they can be busy doing something, rather than to sit there being helped, but again it is up to everyone to join in, or not, as they wish.
Our Church does exactly the same. We put on a Christmas lunch followed by entertainment. All who wish to come are invited. Many, who would otherwise be alone, come along to help out. Those with families give part of the day, sometimes just half an hour. I will be peeling veg on Christmas eve and a driver on the day. We also send hot meals out with drivers, who take one meal so that they can sit and chat with the recipients - usually housebound folk. We borrow hot boxes from meals on wheels - they help us with the invitation lists too.
We have been doing this since 1978 - it's great fun and a good way to spend part of the day.
-------------------- Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I almost certainly won't get invited to a new years eve party- and don't particularly like them. Was round for dinner with a couple I know last night - so suggested to them on spur of the moment, that we go to a local posh pub with a nice festive menu for New Years Day lunch. They agreed - just need to book it now !
-------------------- All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Doublethink: Was round for dinner with a couple I know last night - so suggested to them on spur of the moment, that we go to a local posh pub with a nice festive menu for New Years Day lunch. They agreed - just need to book it now !
Great idea! I like the looking ahead. Allows the fun of anticipating.
I chatted with a couple tonight who said they are early 50s, no kids, siblings have their own families, Christmas day means nothing to them. I need to expand my concept of who feels alone Christmas to include childfree couples. (They go to church 50 miles from here because they couldn't find one in the area that welcomes other than families.)
I did find a choir to sing in Christmas Eve. Director gave me the music today, told me to learn both alto and soprano so I can sing whichever section has the fewest singers show up. He thinks he may have only one soprano Christmas Eve.
The neighbor who said we don't want to spend Christmas with each other will join me for a meal at a Chinese restaurant Christmas Day. Maybe we can round up more people, but so many habitually hide on holidays it might take starting earlier in the year. That's why I'm thinking January is the time to start flushing out non-familied for an Easter gathering.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Belle, I don't really understand this: quote: a couple who said they are early 50s, no kids.....They go to church 50 miles from here because they couldn't find one in the area that welcomes other than families.
Surely most couples in their early 50s would be attending church as "a couple" rather than as "a family" because any children they did have would have left home, or even if still at home, would be adults themselves, and not part of a "family package" with their parents.
What sort of a "family" did your couple in their 50s think they needed to be welcomed to church?
If churches in your area and 50 miles round only welcome couples with actual physically present children, this must be a tiny portion of the local demographic?
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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The Intrepid Mrs S
Shipmate
# 17002
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by North East Quine: Belle, I don't really understand this: quote: a couple who said they are early 50s, no kids.....They go to church 50 miles from here because they couldn't find one in the area that welcomes other than families.
Surely most couples in their early 50s would be attending church as "a couple" rather than as "a family" because any children they did have would have left home, or even if still at home, would be adults themselves, and not part of a "family package" with their parents.
What sort of a "family" did your couple in their 50s think they needed to be welcomed to church?
If churches in your area and 50 miles round only welcome couples with actual physically present children, this must be a tiny portion of the local demographic?
We weren't allowed to call our fundraising concert a Family Fun Concert as usual, because it was at 7.30, again as usual, and so not small-child-friendly. I probably didn't endear myself to the vicar by pointing out that the definition of a 'church family' had nothing to do with how many kids you had or how old they were, and refusing point-blank to run a secular version of All-Age Worship with littlies running amok during the performance (and I wonder why I don't get asked to read at Carol Services!) Anyway we made a joke of it by saying that no-one could use the 'F-word' in connection with the concert
Mrs. S, resident troublemaker (oops!)
-------------------- Don't get your knickers in a twist over your advancing age. It achieves nothing and makes you walk funny. Prayer should be our first recourse, not our last resort 'Lord, please give us patience. NOW!'
Posts: 1464 | From: Neither here nor there | Registered: Mar 2012
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by North East Quine: Belle, I don't really understand this: quote: a couple who said they are early 50s, no kids.....They go to church 50 miles from here because they couldn't find one in the area that welcomes other than families.
Surely most couples in their early 50s would be attending church as "a couple" rather than as "a family" because any children they did have would have left home, or even if still at home, would be adults themselves, and not part of a "family package" with their parents.
What sort of a "family" did your couple in their 50s think they needed to be welcomed to church?
Churches in the area primarily want intact marriages with children at home, for two openly stated reasons. 1. "Children are the future of the church's survival." 2. Family (meaning parents with kids) is the model or at least assumption of a normal healthy Christian life.
People whose children have grown and moved away fit the model by having produced children.
People who don't fit the model, like single parents, childfree couples, and never marrieds, are welcomed in the sense that no one says "go away" but they are left out of the conversation, whether at coffee or in committees, because the model-conforming people feel like they have nothing in common with the non-model people. A widower told me "5 years in this church, in choir and on committees, no one acknowledges anything I say in a meeting, the pastor doesn't return my greeting when we pass in the hall."
A recently widowed friend thinks it goes beyond "you don't fit the model so we have nothing in common with you." She thinks non-model people are viewed as a threat. She said the day after the funeral she became invisible, the couples she use to socialize with don't return a greeting. She said they view widows as a reminder their spouse might die, better to not see a widow than be reminded of that threat. Older singles and childfree couples are a threat, what if the kids decide to imitate that lifestyle, then we don't get grand babies!
Single parents, I'm not sure why, but they say they are wholesale left out.
Funny thing is, the churches I've been involved with are opposed to my starting a singles group to help them find each other, but most do have marrieds groups.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Weird.
There seems to be something going around these days that says that you have to have "interests in common" in order to be ...of interest.
I have a single friend who doesn't like going to her extended family's holiday gatherings because "all they talk about is their children". I haven't heard anything from her that says they don't like talking with her. She says doesn't like talking with them. All this talk of kids is boring to her. She likes talking about current affairs, preferably with a liberal bias.
I don't understand not valuing variety.
-------------------- "Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
The church I used to go to made a big thing about attracting "unchurched" families with young children. It became so clear that Figbash and I were the wrong sort of young people (no kids, attending church since childhood) that we left; then they discovered that they did not have enough volunteers for the PCC and they were really struggling to replace Figbash as secretary.
-------------------- "Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Lyda*Rose: I have a single friend who doesn't like going to her extended family's holiday gatherings because "all they talk about is their children". I haven't heard anything from her that says they don't like talking with her. She says doesn't like talking with them. All this talk of kids is boring to her. She likes talking about current affairs, preferably with a liberal bias.
I don't understand not valuing variety.
Doesn't it somewhat depend on whether others you are with also value variety?
I have friends who will "never" again go to a womens meeting because they've been to too many where all the talk was about formulas and baby shots and diapers and how many hours the kid sleeps at night. ALL the talk. If you don't have a baby, endless details about formulas is deadly boring.
I was taught to be aware of who is in your gathering and be sure to talk about things of interest to all.
Or at least take turns, talk about your babies, but then ask the non-babied about their lives and mean it, not give them 30 seconds and then take the conversation back to your babies.
If the extended family is glad to talk with you but only if the conversation is about their children, they aren't interested in engaging with you, only with reflections of themselves.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
There may be a pond difference, but here in the UK, married couples with dependent children, although a large demographic, aren't the majority.
According to the Office for National Statistics 29% of British Households are single-person households. 56% of households are headed by a couple, but that includes both unmarried couples and child-free couples. I couldn't find a statistic for the number / percentage of married-with-children households, but it's clearly a minority.
If the USA has a similar demographic, it seems ridiculous that all the churches in a 50 mile radius are chasing one minority subset of the population, and ignoring / rejecting the majority of the population. It seems that a church which only wants married-with-children couples is restricting itself to a small percentage of the population.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Or is it the business ethos transferred to churches? A particular kind of consumer is more 'profitable' in terms of growing and continuing the church plc, while others use up the resources without giving adequate return on investment?
Or the idea of individual fulfilment? That you have a right to the optimal satisfaction from your social/religious milieu - rather than have to rub along with various biddies and deadbeats and weirdos because they happen to be in the same parish?
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by North East Quine: According to the Office for National Statistics 29% of British Households are single-person households. 56% of households are headed by a couple, but that includes both unmarried couples and child-free couples...
It seems that a church which only wants married-with-children couples is restricting itself to a small percentage of the population.
Pretty similar demographic. IIRC 44% of USA adults are unmarried, 48% of households are are married including those with no kids at home, 27% of households are married with kids. NY Times article
And yes churches are silly to ignore the vast numbers of singles, who mostly don't go to church because of the church focus on marrieds with children. This brief comment cites an article about it, but I can't find the article itself.
Of the almost 200 churches in my county, I don't know of any that acknowledges singles, except one that was going to have an all church Valentine's dance until one of the widows said "what about me, I don't have a dance partner?" and the clergy guy changed it to an all church Valentine's party. My church would say "the couples want a dance, we're not changing that just for you." After New Years I'll go visit that other church.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
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Posted
Many, many churches in the UK have the same attitude towards families with children - they're the holy grail. If you're single or a couple without children you may find someone will talk to you. However, if another person/couple with small children enters while they're talking to you you're likely to get knocked over in the rush to get to the real goodies.
It's stupid, offensive and wrong, but I've seen it far too often to be able to dismiss it as unusual. I'd like to believe that it stems from a desire to see children brought up as Christians, but unfortunately I think it is actually based on the (rather stupid) idea that children are potential future church members, and give an opportunity to secure the church's future.
ETA I think young single men are another holy grail, but I'm not sure I've seen one in church in the last twenty years, so I'm not totally sure. [ 17. December 2012, 21:45: Message edited by: Drifting Star ]
-------------------- The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
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The Intrepid Mrs S
Shipmate
# 17002
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Posted
And since in the meantime you need to continue to run your churches, you need (hush my mouth) MONEY and TIME and COMMITMENT. Now pardon me for thinking this, but frankly young people with small children have very little disposable money or time, and their kids' ckaims are going to come first - so when you need sidespersons, or a PCC secretary, or someone to make coffee after services, you very often can't depend on people in that demographic. You need everyone to play a part in church life.
Mrs. S, on too many rotas
-------------------- Don't get your knickers in a twist over your advancing age. It achieves nothing and makes you walk funny. Prayer should be our first recourse, not our last resort 'Lord, please give us patience. NOW!'
Posts: 1464 | From: Neither here nor there | Registered: Mar 2012
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I suspect it is a hang over from the attitude where the home was the main place for discipling Christians. See Richard Baxter catechising whole household, see Susannah Wesley running family prayer in her home, see the practice of formal family prayer. The culture has gone, may half a century ago there were still remnants but now none. Even family saying grace before meals is fast disappear not least because families less often have meals together.
However the real problem is different and that is the increased movability of people today. Take three things college, the car and family breakdown. College: Kids grow up, they often go away to college and they rarely return home. The car opens up possibilities of things to do, you can for instance visit people a distance from home, but only over the weekend when you are not working or the people you are visiting are not at work. It can no longer be assumed that families will remain together and when break ups happen then things get interesting. Quite often kids are with one parent during the week and another at the weekend. One parent remains in the church the other quite often ends up right outside it and if random chance then half the time the parents that has the kids at the weekend is the one who is outside the church. In other words there are a whole lot of factors which mean we are more mobile. That means that assuming kids that grow up in the church will stay in the church seems dubious in the extreme.
Jengie
-------------------- "To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
It may be a pond difference, but in my church older women are pretty much omnipresent; they do the tea rota, the flowers, the fund-raising coffee mornings, the folding of the newsletters, etc, etc.
It would be quite hard to be an older woman in my church without finding yourself on some ****** committee. In the past 7 days I've been at 3 services, one of which I had to attend because I'd missed a previous committee meeting and had been assigned a speaking role in my absence , attended one committee meeting (at which I broke the 9th commandment by saying another commitment meant I could only stay for the first 70 mins), provided after-service shortbread (which I bought instead of home-baking, so bite me), been given candles to make Christingles, produced a Powerpoint of Christmas congregational greetings (again, someone else volunteered me) and been given a (shudder) 6 page PVA form to complete. And I've been asked if I can spare a couple of hours on Sat to help with the Nativity rehearsal.
And this pales into insignificance compared to the hours the flower-arrangers, the mulled-wine and mincemeat pie makers and the choir have put in. Plus our beadle has been working overtime keeping the paths de-iced and the church warm.
Young marrieds with kids just don't feature much in any of this.
North East Quine, wondering why she hasn't spent much time on her PhD this week....
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote: Plus our beadle has been working overtime keeping the paths de-iced and the church warm.
Dark nights make me S.A.D., but being a Beadle sounds so much more glamorous than serving on a property committee that I think I might move to N.E. Scotland.
I bet all and sundry still feel free to slag him off if 'the church isn't warm enough'...but at least he could open his coat, revealing underpants-over-tights and a big 'B' on his chest...
-------------------- "We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard (so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
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Posted
It's clearly not a pond difference since I'm in the UK.
Yes, those who will take on the jobs are used, and overused, and there is far less of an assumption that those with young children will do so (other than regarding children's activities, of course). Children are the only valid reason for not having the time to contribute.
The fact that certain groups of people are used, however, is not an indication of who is appreciated, feted and wanted in the church.
-------------------- The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mark_in_manchester: quote: Plus our beadle has been working overtime keeping the paths de-iced and the church warm.
Dark nights make me S.A.D., but being a Beadle sounds so much more glamorous than serving on a property committee that I think I might move to N.E. Scotland.
I bet all and sundry still feel free to slag him off if 'the church isn't warm enough'...but at least he could open his coat, revealing underpants-over-tights and a big 'B' on his chest...
Tangent // At the start of each service everyone stands respectfully when the Beadle carries the Bible in. Then we sit down for the minister coming in. At the end of the service we all stand respectfully while the Beadle carries the Bible out. This Sunday, I'm going to struggle with the respectful standing, because I'll be imagining our Beadle in underpants over tights.... //End tangent.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Drifting Star: The fact that certain groups of people are used, however, is not an indication of who is appreciated, feted and wanted in the church.
A friend says "the widows do all the work, but we aren't invited to the parties." By which she means things like people chatting at coffee no longer include her, even though they used to socialized with her when she was married.
It's a cultural thing, my Dad worked with wills and trusts, and back in the 50s he said widows are routinely excluded from the social groups that used to welcome her as part of a couple. It's not new.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Drifting Star: Many, many churches in the UK have the same attitude towards families with children - they're the holy grail. If you're single or a couple without children you may find someone will talk to you. However, if another person/couple with small children enters while they're talking to you you're likely to get knocked over in the rush to get to the real goodies.
Could the "we want families" culture be part of why young adults drop church? If they don't see themselves marrying for a few years, and see church as all about family, and in general feel less welcome than when they were kids, they'll pick the message that they outgrew church when they outgrew living with their parents.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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daisydaisy
Shipmate
# 12167
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Posted
I'm not sure the "we want families" is the prime factor putting young people off, but that is such another topic.
I realised yesterday that the ways things are at work, I have to take this time off. And that all is not as bleak as I thought because I have an invitation to a lovely party for one of the days when I would have been working. I am beginning to look forward to some quiet time reading.
As for Christmas Day itself, today I bravely asked for a notice to be put into the parish bulletin (pew sheet/notices/whatever) inviting people at a loose end on Christmas Day to come over for dinner. Who knows if anyone will take this up, or if I will know any of those who do (we are a large congregation) but that is part of the fun, and if no-one else comes I will still be joined by my tax-completed neighbour. I hope others do come because I have begun to accumulate rather a lot of festive food and drink, and I am in grave danger of being an embarrassment on the Safe From Kidnapping thread!
Posts: 3184 | From: southern uk | Registered: Dec 2006
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by daisydaisy: As for Christmas Day itself, today I bravely asked for a notice to be put into the parish bulletin (pew sheet/notices/whatever) inviting people at a loose end on Christmas Day to come over for dinner. Who knows if anyone will take this up, or if I will know any of those who do (we are a large congregation) but that is part of the fun, and if no-one else comes I will still be joined by my tax-completed neighbour.
I like the idea but one Easter I thought of it too late, had the preacher add it to his announcements the week before Easter, he put the announcement in his own words and botched it, and besides who remembers verbal pre-service announcements?
In bulletin is better, in the bulletin three weeks in a row would be better, but that would require knowing for certain you aren't going to be invited by any family/friends, and usually friends don't invite outsiders until a few days before Christmas. So announcing early enough for others to plan to join you means intending to reject any invitations you might receive.
But I do like the idea, and it's the sort of thing that maybe can grow year to year.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Belle Ringer: In bulletin is better, in the bulletin three weeks in a row would be better, but that would require knowing for certain you aren't going to be invited by any family/friends, and usually friends don't invite outsiders until a few days before Christmas. So announcing early enough for others to plan to join you means intending to reject any invitations you might receive.
You seem to be doing the same thing you're complaining about others doing. Do you really only want to share dinner with your single friends if no "better" invitations come along?
-------------------- "...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe." ~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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