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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Why is everything 'old' and 'vintage' hard to find?
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PadreEgan
Apprentice
# 13876
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Posted
So, I believe that this thread is in the right place, maybe not, if not, mea cupla!
I love all things, old. I love old churches, old hymns, old liturgies, old people, etc...
I get so frustrated when I seek out something that is old, but perfect, and we have seen to let those things go in pursuit of all things modern.
For example, this: http://cinemafanatic.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/the_bishops_wife_david_niven.jpg
why don't they make vests or shirt fronts of this style anymore???? At least not in the US...maybe over seas?
Does anyone know where I could order this old but perfect style clergy vest/shirt front?
thanks and Blessed Advent!
Posts: 23 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2008
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
It's a clerical stock/rabbat. You can get them from Wippels and Watts (or at least you used to be able to)
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Fradgan
Apprentice
# 16455
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Posted
Wippel and Watts can be a bit pricey. Check here if you don't mind a Roman collar.
http://www.almy.com/Category/ClergyVestandRabats
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"From the moment I picked your book up until I laid it down, I was convulsed with laughter. Someday I intend reading it." - Groucho Marx
Posts: 37 | From: San Gabriel | Registered: Jun 2011
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PadreEgan
Apprentice
# 13876
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Posted
I have a clerical rabbat....but it is with the 'modern' cut Anglican collar. I want to find the old wide cut style!
Posts: 23 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2008
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
I find the grumpiness underlying your OP rather quaint ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I think you are being unreasonable though. Styles and fashions change, including clerical ones. I mean, at the time of the film gentlemen's collars tended to have rounded tips, like this. Now they are universally pointed, like this. That is the current dominant style and it is unreasonable to expect shops to stock the other variety on the off chance someone might buy one.
Solution? You have to have it specially made. I fancied the retro look and, passing through Hong Kong recently, had some shirts made with rounded collars. It's a fad on my part, and no doubt the only time I will do such a thing!
So, if you want something retro, you need to find a tailor to make it for you. It will cost more, of course, but that's the price of wanting something no-one else does. I much prefer the narrow modern rabat style to that old, wide one, as it happens.
Will you compromise on other aspects? For example, will you accept the now standard plastic collar, or do you also need it to be starched linen? That also has an inflationary bearing on the price you will need to pay.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
I think you are being unreasonable though. Styles and fashions change, including clerical ones. I mean, at the time of the film gentlemen's collars tended to have rounded tips, like this. Now they are universally pointed, like this. That is the current dominant style and it is unreasonable to expect shops to stock the other variety on the off chance someone might buy one.
I missed my calling in life. Neck model.
[ 13. December 2012, 18:45: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fradgan:
Wippel and Watts can be a bit pricey. Check here if you don't mind a Roman collar.
http://www.almy.com/Category/ClergyVestandRabats
quote:
Originally posted by PadreEgan:
I have a clerical rabbat....but it is with the 'modern' cut Anglican collar. I want to find the old wide cut style!
What's an 'Anglican' collar?
Aren't all 'clerical' collars 'Roman' collars?
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PadreEgan:
So, I believe that this thread is in the right place, maybe not, if not, mea cupla!
I love all things, old. I love old churches, old hymns, old liturgies, old people, etc...
I get so frustrated when I seek out something that is old, but perfect, and we have seen to let those things go in pursuit of all things modern.
For example, this:
Looong URL
why don't they make vests or shirt fronts of this style anymore???? At least not in the US...maybe over seas?
Does anyone know where I could order this old but perfect style clergy vest/shirt front?
thanks and Blessed Advent!
A blessed Advent to you!
I see by your profile that you are rector of a church known to me in the Episcopal Diocese of Albany. Don't you, as a matter of course, get the glossy, Lah-de-dah CM Almy catalogs in your mailbox there? The also, of course, they have their grand web site for you to look at.
CM Almy
In the CM Almy clergy catalogs and on the web site you will find just what you are looking for in the way of rabats, vests, collar stocks and colleros with steps or no steps, or they will produce anything you may want in that ... er antique line.
CM Almy clergy vests & rabats
Where have you been hiding, or why hasn't Almy found you for what you are looking for?
*
[edited to fix the scroll-lock; djo]
[ 20. December 2012, 08:18: Message edited by: dj_ordinaire ]
Posts: 862 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
Surely, in the context of a living, dynamic faith, the question we must ask is 'is this item an effective vehicle of gospel?' I am not prejudicing an answer, but it may explain why some quaintitudes defuncticize. Mileages will differ, but a majority voice will emerge.
I so don't wear gaiters.
Zappa is not to be blamed for the fact that, the last time I heard this argument carried forth, its proponent was an advocate for Christian nudism (I spare shipmates the link).
Gaiters have their own thread from years back, but I think they would be practical for the cleric who has to hustle between his points, but wishes to do so by bicycle, rather than by planet-killing automobile.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
Surely, in the context of a living, dynamic faith, the question we must ask is 'is this item an effective vehicle of gospel?'...
Zappa is not to be blamed for the fact that, the last time I heard this argument carried forth, its proponent was an advocate for Christian nudism (I spare shipmates the link)...
There is also a significant difference between what a priest can wear in the comfort of his/her own church, and what can be worn in public.
Pink chasuble? In church it makes sense. Walking down the street in it, one might cause more than a few eyebrows to be elevated.
The general public understands what a priestly collar means, just as they understand a yarmulke. They do not understand gaiters, nor would they understand what Augustine's advocate proposes.
[ 16. December 2012, 16:17: Message edited by: Olaf ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
Surely, in the context of a living, dynamic faith, the question we must ask is 'is this item an effective vehicle of gospel?' I am not prejudicing an answer, but it may explain why some quaintitudes defuncticize. Mileages will differ, but a majority voice will emerge.
I so don't wear gaiters.
Zappa is not to be blamed for the fact that, the last time I heard this argument carried forth, its proponent was an advocate for Christian nudism (I spare shipmates the link).
Gaiters have their own thread from years back, but I think they would be practical for the cleric who has to hustle between his points, but wishes to do so by bicycle, rather than by planet-killing automobile.
Clifford Rose, one my favourite British actors wore gaiters and an apron when he appeared as the pacifist Bishop of (fictional) Cirencester in "Foyle's War".
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Clifford Rose, one my favourite British actors wore gaiters and an apron when he appeared as the pacifist Bishop of (fictional) Cirencester in "Foyle's War".
There's also the bishop in Titfield Thunderbolt (played by Godfrey Tearle, of whom I know little): the shot of him with jacket removed and gaiters silhouetted against the sky as he frantically stokes the locomotive is unforgettable.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
The general public understands what a priestly collar means, just as they understand a yarmulke.
In my culture of ministry (Australian teenagers, but also the wider community) they understand neither. The clerical collar no longer carries significance except "weird shirt" in Oz culture. A yarmulke is rarely seen outside megalopolitan Sydney and Melbourne.
Though nude doesn't work, either, I agree. Though it would probably be climactically appropriate here. Er - but with a stole for sacramental moments.
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Manipled Mutineer
Shipmate
# 11514
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
Though nude doesn't work, either, I agree. Though it would probably be climactically appropriate here. Er - but with a stole for sacramental moments.
Crossed in front?
Posts: 1533 | From: Glamorgan, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
Though nude doesn't work, either, I agree. Though it would probably be climactically appropriate here. Er - but with a stole for sacramental moments.
Crossed in front?
Mutineer, of all people, should know that this depends entirely on the cleric's degree (bishop, priest or deacon) and for priests if they be a follower of the Blessed Percy (crossed in front) or GIRM (bishop style).
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
I have seen a number of 'rabat' or 'stock' clerical items recently. I have also seen an MB waistcoat ('Mark of the Beast') that looks like a cassock and has both a front and back - unlike a rabat.
The stock or vestock used to be the preserve of older clergy and nearly always worn by bishops, when the rest of the clergy seem to have moved to clerical shirts. Robert Runcie always wore a vestock apart from once, when umpiring a cricket match in the blazing heat when he wore a (uncharacteristically for him) clerical shirt. George Carey was the first ABC ever to wear a clerical shirt.
Vestocks with a 1 and 3/4 inch (I think) opening at the front are required dress for all army chaplains of any denomiation wearing Mess Kit. It used to be a full collar for RCs, and doubled banded for the rest, with reverse order for service dress (RCs in double banded and the rest in full) but since convergence this has changed, although some follow the previous convention.
They do look smart, and have the advantage of being able to be removed for relaxation revealing an often coloured or striped collarless shirt underneath. White for more formal occasions, of course.
For some reason a couple of decades ago it appeared that more evangelical clergy seemed to wear the stock (and certainly the full collar with a shirt) and 'Higher' clergy the clerical shirt with the small opening.
The full ring-of-confidence collar seemed very establishment middle-of-the-road back then. ALL bishops seemed to wear it, either with a shirt or stock. Robery Runcie appeared a little outre wearing a rabat with...a double band! The 'Donald Coggan' look was the most common. Now I notice rthat the full collar seems most common amongst American clergy.
I know my shipmate Angloid isn't a great fan but wonder in my geeky mode whether he has one somewhere in the bottom of a drawer, worn perhaps in his early days after ordination?
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
Though nude doesn't work, either, I agree. Though it would probably be climactically appropriate here. Er - but with a stole for sacramental moments.
Crossed in front?
Mutineer, of all people, should know that this depends entirely on the cleric's degree (bishop, priest or deacon) and for priests if they be a follower of the Blessed Percy (crossed in front) or GIRM (bishop style).
I suspect in the context MM was suggesting the stole should be crossed not, as customary, across the chest but rather lower down. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
I know my shipmate Angloid isn't a great fan but wonder in my geeky mode whether he has one somewhere in the bottom of a drawer, worn perhaps in his early days after ordination?
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) I confess....! (Actually I haven't any longer; I threw it out when it turned green.)
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
.... Robert Runcie always wore a vestock apart from once, when umpiring a cricket match in the blazing heat when he wore a (uncharacteristically for him) clerical shirt. George Carey was the first ABC ever to wear a clerical shirt....
Ah, Robert Runcie again. How I miss that man. Do you think he'll go down as the last really elegant ABC? I fear he might.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
I know my shipmate Angloid isn't a great fan but wonder in my geeky mode whether he has one somewhere in the bottom of a drawer, worn perhaps in his early days after ordination?
I confess....! (Actually I haven't any longer; I threw it out when it turned green.)
If it went green, then it was very good quality. At the least russell cord; at best Persian. Splendid.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
What colour do poor quality ones go?
BTW I don't dislike the look of the things, just that I am not a 'dressy' person and don't like wearing things that demand lots of buttons and studs etc. Don't like ties either!
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Manipled Mutineer
Shipmate
# 11514
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
Though nude doesn't work, either, I agree. Though it would probably be climactically appropriate here. Er - but with a stole for sacramental moments.
Crossed in front?
Mutineer, of all people, should know that this depends entirely on the cleric's degree (bishop, priest or deacon) and for priests if they be a follower of the Blessed Percy (crossed in front) or GIRM (bishop style).
I suspect in the context MM was suggesting the stole should be crossed not, as customary, across the chest but rather lower down.
Yes, I must admit it was aesthetic questions rather than liturgical ones which were at the forefront of my mind...
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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
Catholic books
Posts: 1533 | From: Glamorgan, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I suppose the aesthetics of all this would depend on the qualities of whatever else you've got to display...
The 'pink chasuble' referred to upthread sounds rather like a euphemism, perhaps for a somewhat portly cleric in a state of undress- 'I was walking past the vicarage last night and the curtains were open and what do you think I saw? Father doing the hoovering in nothing but his pink chasuble!'
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
What colour do poor quality ones go?
BTW I don't dislike the look of the things, just that I am not a 'dressy' person and don't like wearing things that demand lots of buttons and studs etc. Don't like ties either!
They don't have a tendency to 'go' anything, as the polyester would melt if one stood too near the fire.
I have to confess also! I love dress. I wear a gown to do the ironing (to make it more interesting), and wouldn't dream of ordering in a Chinese takeway without donning a smoking jacket. It takes me an hour to dress in the morning - including changing a few times to get it right, of course.
I couldn't have conceived following a profession that didn't involve some form of dressing up. Strangely I am at one with you in your dislike of ties - especially for a cleric. If a clergy(man) wishes to be casual - abolutely fine: wear jeans, open necked shirt, T-shirt etc. If formal don't emulate the bank manager, wear a clerical collar. No point in a tie.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Actually, most ties have two points. But I take yours.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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sacerdos
Shipmate
# 8790
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Posted
Triple Tiara's right - clerical fashions DO change. And how! In the mid-late sixties I was sending "insert" or "tunnel" collar shirts from France to a friend in London - they just weren't available in the UK then. But most French priests back then were wearing grey sports or polo shirts, or ordinary lay grey shirts without ties. It was a cross on the lapel that usually signified priesthood.
In 1968 I bought some rabats in Rome. They had narrow openings, like the Toomey RC models. But have a look at what they are selling and wearing in Rome nowadays. Stocks, or rabats, have noticeably wider openings than in the past, but I have a new one from Euroclero & have quickly got used to it. It's very comfortable.
Posts: 62 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Goinfg back to Zappa's non-wearing of gaiters: Surely the gaiters were designed to allow the parson/cleric to ride his horse.
Bicycles, once they were invented were for young ladies wearing bloomers.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Goinfg back to Zappa's non-wearing of gaiters: Surely the gaiters were designed to allow the parson/cleric to ride his horse.
Bicycles, once they were invented were for young ladies wearing bloomers.
Bicycles were also appropriate for curates and for RC clergy, who would not have been able to afford horses and, indeed, would not know what do with them, as they were rarely from the gentry.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
...but we're very, very often the younger sons of Irish farmers and understood only too well what to do with them. The church house I live in, built in 1894, has an outhouse that was originally two stables.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
You are quite right and I stand corrected; I had been thinking more of Dublin's gurrier class, rather than the stalwart yeomen of Wicklow and the grooms of Kildare, whose sons supplied the mission field for a full century and more, much as the fields of Kerala and Silesia do today.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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